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Wow, awesome post! |
Great post. I especially agree with the last paragraph. |
Well, the YW lesson manual certainly has issues, but I hesitate to lay the blame at the feet of a single program (although I would be eager to have a new manual. I think the issue is a much bigger cultural force in the church. What do we teach our YM to expect of, or desire in, a future spouse? An education (and student loan debt)? Not so much. What kinds of women do we call to YW? Almost without fail, young married pregnant (fun) women. No wonder our YW decide to emulate that. In every GC setting I can think of, probably for the last 10 years, women have been encouraged to get an education. Has this become a rallying cry? Have those same women who took out their excess earrings and quit rated R movies enrolled in classes? No. I cannot think of one woman I kow who sited Prophetic Coucil as the reason for her study. Yet I STILL hear stories about the women who “came home from their offices” in response to Pres. Benson. I can’t wait until this education thing really takes hold, and I hope it will, but I don’t see it coming any time soon. ps–I think having kids is really fun, but I would say that learning is the most important reason we are on earth and that is the primary reason for parenthood. But learning can of course be done as a non-parent and, in fact, many parents use their kids as an excuse to NOT learn many other things. |
Devyn, I think if we changed the focus in YW we would have a even lower birth rate and marriage rate. The LDS church is one of the few places that still stresses the importance of marriage and children in the world today. Seriously where else does a YW get that message? Its one of the secrets to our still fairly decent (although dropping) demographics in the US. Most growth in the US is due to babies not conversions. So you would simply end up with a worse outcome with more single people and fewer babies. the Focus of the YM program is (12 years exp) Mission In that order. Each is building block leading to retention and eventual fatherhood. |
Thank you for this post. It needs to be shouted from the rooftops. On a related note, a little old lady in my parents’ ward was asking my mom how I was doing. (I have been living in a neighboring city for a few years and haven’t seen many of the people in their ward for a while.) My mom told her about my studies and mentioned that she was proud of me. This little old lady expressed shock that my mom would be proud of me and said, “But don’t you want her to get married?!” My mom related this story to me and we were both baffled by this sweet sister’s reaction. |
ESO, You make an interesting comment about student loan debt. Its a serious problem for young couples when both H and W have lots of student loan debt. We could have a whole post about its impact. Esp if the Mom has a JD or PHD and the debt incurred in the process. I have seen lots of overextended young couples where they both had crushing school debt. It impacts their entire lives and reproductive choices of course. |
bbell–tell me about it. Student Loans are remarkably unfriendly to women as they must be paid off within 10 years (generally a woman’s 20s/30s=reproductive years) and, at best, can be defered for 3. A woman wanting to have kids, let alone stay home with them, is pretty out of luck unless hubby can shoulder both loans. Yeah, this is on my mind. |
Devyn–I have seen a few atrocious Mothers Day Programs: 1–a few youth were asked to speak and they competed with each other to tell the most embaressing thing about their moms (in a loving way, of course) and then their moms were the next speakers. |
I love your post, and I agree with your thoughts. I do think the YW program is heavy on motherhood and temple marriage, but I think the problem is bigger than this program. I think women often feel the need to justify their own decisions (i.e. stay at home mom or working mom) by putting down the decisions of other women. Is this due to insecurity or guilt over what the church culture seems to dictate? I don’t know, but it drives me crazy. I think most decisions in your life are between you and God, and as women, we should learn to celebrate others’ decisions rather than nit-pick at them. |
So Bob, Are you suggesting I should have been home instead of working on my PhD? ;-) We definately have a lot of student loan debt because of my education, but I know I am a much better person and much better mother as a result. I think you were around when I was depressed after #3. Education was a part of what saved my life. I realize you are making a point, but blanket statements like that (which blame women for our social ills) don’t help women and young women recognize our potential. I know you’re a good guy and I don’t think it’s what you mean, but you statement suggests to me that women are being selfish when we persue an education. |
DCcLemon–I think people feel very validated when those around them (especially co-religionists, as we expect them to share our values) make the same decisions. If you and I are doing, essentially, the same thing, that means my decision is OK beacuse it is the one you made, too. But of course, then we take people who made different decisions as some sort of a criticism on what we are doing. Bottom line is, I think, make your decision and if you are confident/comfortable with it, then it shouldn’t matter what other people do or think about it. I hear LDS women talk all the time about how comfortable they are living in contrast to the rest of “the world” (from their perspective: staying home and having lots of children close together is a good and righteous but unworldly decision), yet they wither at having contrast within the church. [perhaps this is less applicable amoung men as they have so many validated choices and women with children have a much more narrow socially accepted wedge of choices] |
Wow Devyn great post. I had a bishop once who would start fights. Not fun. I spoke on Mother’s Day. What a nerve wracking experience that was. No matter what you say you run into the situation of making someone mad/sad. So I acknowledged the negative feelings associated with Mother’s Day and dwelt on Hannah from the OT and Mary the mother of Jesus. I paid off my own student loans by teaching for 7 years. My oldest went into daycare. I had a lot of guilt then, but not so much now. I am glad that I have my education. As for my oldest, he seems to have recovered from daycare nicely with no side affects. DCcLemon #9 very nicely put. |
Guess the site is live again – I guess we need to pay those bills!!! Thanks Berrykat and Katie P. ESO #3 – agreed it is a much larger issue, but I think the YW program is a key problem, both the manuals as well as the leaders (as you point out). We do hear education touted from the pulpit, but the messages are mixed to women. Get an education, don’t go on a mission, get married, don’t delay having a family, stay at home – it is a plethora of mixed messages. BBell #4 – and why is having a lower birth rate a problem? My parents had 11 kids and my wife and I will likely have 3-4. The economics of our society certainly impacts birth rate more than encouraging women to do other things with their lives. I don’t know of many, if any, LDS couples who do not want children, whether educated or not. kerri #5 – Sorry to hear about the reaction your mom got. My sister who is in Med School (single) has had many guys she dates tell her they don’t want to marry a doctor as they don’t want someone who makes more than they do… I told her to move out of Utah and find some real men somewhere else! |
Rondel, I stand by my statements about Student Loan Debt. If there is any other way for an education to be paid for its best that you take that route. Student Loans should be used as a last resort after scholarships, working thru college etc. Having both Mom and Dad in hoc for 400-800 a month each at age 25 during prime child rearing years is clearly not in the best financial interests of the family. Look at #7 from ESO. |
Bbell and ESO – there is always the option of welfare for grad students :) just had to make that comment before Ben There did! Seriously the student loan issue is a problem, although, I think that if both spouses are committed to helping each other get an education, then things will work out. It is easily as stressful to have kids in grad school with little to no income (I imagine)… #8 ESO – sounds like you have had some doozy Mother’s Day programs too – funny, I have not had too many freaky father’s day programs… #9 – DccLemon – agreed it is broader than YW. I think you have a point on the defending our particular positions and it seems an acute problem in Relief Society (according to my wife). I love ESOs comment in #11 – it states the reality fairly succintly. #12 JABenson – Thanks and thanks for your experiences, I think hearing a diverse array of experiences would be wonderful for the young women of the Church so that they realize there is no one size fits all approach to the Gospel. |
Looks like my comment got flushed. I was going to say that I wish there were a way to have my YW-next-year daughter skip YW for 6 years and still remain active, but I guess that’s not possible. It seems like having a YW program that supports education and possible missionary opportunities is a function of the ward leaders, not the program — it’s basically Ward Roulette. I fear that my daughter’s desire to go on a mission and college won’t necessarily be supported. But until the president of the Church stands up and says “NO MORE SISTER MISSIONARIES!”, what’s the harm in preparing YW to go on a mission? What, maybe they’ll get married and not put those skills and knowledge to use? |
rondell – bbell wasn’t saying don’t do a PhD. He was saying that it’s kind of dumb to get $100K in debt if you’re going to have to delay starting a family for the next 10 years to pay off that debt. queueno, the PhD candidate, with zero grad school debt |
You know – I’d just be fine if we didn’t have MD programs, and I believe *MOST* women would agree with me. Our ward had talks on enriching marriage. Both speakers talked about their mothers for a few moments and moved on. I don’t have any purpose for Father’s Day celebrations at Church. |
On the debt issue, there isn’t any practical reason why family and grad school and debt can’t be managed. I have a newly-minted JD brother and a newly-minted MD sister-in-law who are expecting their first child in a few months. Looks like the grad school debt payments aren’t causing them alarm, probably because they’ve figured out how to make the payments and start a family. But not everyone is that way. That’s the concern. And the Church would rather not have people delaying families while racking up additional debt. |
Deyvn, We LDS have a unique way of emphasizing marriage and family to our youth. I think based on watching the demographics of other sub groups that if we changed the focus in our youth programs it would have a big impact on the future health and growth of the LDS church in the US. |
Queuno – great advice. I did a PhD (no debt) and my wife did two MS degrees and we have no debt. We worked our butts off during the programs and now we can be more relaxed. I know others who have a ton of debt and it is an albatross around their necks – they often lament not living more frugally in school. It is a tough situation with no one size fits all. I agree I worry about my daughter going to YW unless we can hand pick the YW leaders to insure she is not brainwashed counter to our brainwashing. |
queno, Please feel free to not go spreading your opinions about not bothering with Father’s Day. Our last ward passed out big chocolate bars on Father’s Day. I don’t remember what was spoken. I do remember at the end of the meeting there was a collective mmmm … chocolate, Ã la Homer Simpson. All was well. I am waiting hungrily to see what we get this year. |
BBell – I realize how important the family and marriage are to the gospel. However, I think that by not teaching kids that some of them will never get married, some will never have children, and all should get an education is bad. I think it would save some of the heartache and pain. I also don’t see how teaching such things would negatively impact family size. Mormons want to have families, maybe not 10 kids like the older generation, but certainly a few… MAC- you live in a cool ward – I have never been given anything for Father’s Day despite complaining… |
I was called as a YW leader the first time I entered a family ward since I was in YW myself, and that was as a single adult who had never been married in a conservative town in North Texas. The girls and I adored each other, and I got nothing but love and support from everyone in the ward, especially the bishop, except for one fellow YW leader who had her own issues. The YW president had me talk about my life and the positive choices I’d made, especially concerning education, when I came in to give the girls a view of another way to be a faithful Mormon. It’s definitely ward roulette. |
In fact, I’m still paying off my BS/BA debt while finishing my (eternal) PhD. Of course, I have a full-time career that pays for my PhD (and paid for my MS), but there are multiple ways to do this. For brethren doing an MBA, I would recommend finding a company that will fund it. Sure, it takes a little longer and costs you some nights and weekends, but it’s a more sensible option than the 2-year/full-time option. Here in Texas, Lockheed Martin and Sabre are good candidates for the “we’ll-pay-for-it” option. |
MAC – Oh, I’ll take the candy bar. Just don’t waste a Sunday with talks about how we’re not measuring up to some ideal Dad role. |
One last thought about Mother’s Day — my wife was glad for the non-MD talks in our sacrament meeting. One reason is that she’s barely speaking to her mother right now, the result of years of mutual bickering that finally came to a head and its logical conclusion. And the last thing she needed to hear were either talks propagating an ideal of motherhood or a bunch of talking celebrating someone else’s mother. I’m reminded of a huge blowup last year over on T&S where anti-MD women were shouted down as “why do you people have to ruin it for the rest of us”. In my opinion, a pseudo-holiday with no salvific properties or doctrinal tie-ins that has the potential to ruin the Sabbath for a large group of members (in the minority) could probably be avoided by the ward, entirely. [I think I was able to keep Christmas and Easter justified with that last statement.] |
I don’t believe that is has no salvic properties, and we do not as a church limit ourselves to only strict doctrinal activities (for instance, the ward Halloween party). Even from the story in the opening post, clearly many people love the official celebrations on Mother’s Day. Despite my dislike of it (my mother died when I was 20 and apparently I’ll never get over it), I’d never dream of raining on their parade. |
Halloween activities are generally not done during sacrament meeting. It’s really hard to avoid bothersome sacrament meetings unless you take the sacrament and then leave. This was one of the big points over on the T&S thread last year, I believe. That people didn’t feel that they had to sit idly by while another group of less-offendable people were catered to. I guess it depends on how many of each are on each side in a ward, right? |
Deyvn #15 I suspect that it will be a cold day in you-know-where before they call me to be in YW. I think that it is my big mouth. #28 Katie P. My dear mother can’t bear to attend Mother’s day because of sad feelings about the death of her mother when she was a child. I am sorry for your loss. |
What I found entertaining about your post is picturing the knock-down drag out Mother’s Day had to have been. Sorry, but I have a sick sense of humor. Of course, I think your bishop should be smacked up the side of the head. I think women should get cool stuff on Mother’s Day and men should get cool stuff on Father’s Day. I’d say cool stuff would be: chocolates, really good soap, at the very cheapest, a nice flower. For guys I say a big nut-filled brownie or a wonderful cinnamon roll. Although if the bishop, his counselor’s and all their wives just want to have a good mud fight, that would work also. |
I agree the YW program needs some overhauling. I’m approaching my 3rd wedding anniversary and have been in YW for almost two years (in two wards). No kids yet, my husband is in school (which we are paying for, no loans) while I am working fulltime and just finished my masters (my employer paid for it). I want to be able to stay home so my husband needs a full-time with benefits job before kids. I am ready to leave YW because there is a girl who constantly asks personal questions about when I am going to have kids. A 13 year old asking why I don’t have kids yet! While I have talked about different aspects of our decision, I have run out of polite ways to tell her its none of her business. I feel like all the girls are only interested in things related to marriage and children. There is hope for those nervous about their girls going to YW. I always knew the importance of education and that I was going to graduate from college. My parents taught me that not the YW program. |
am ready to leave YW because there is a girl who constantly asks personal questions about when I am going to have kids. A 13 year old asking why I don’t have kids yet! Bury your face in your hands, conjure up fake tears and say, “I know! I know! And we’re trying SO hard! Maybe we’re not doing it right!” Should shut them right up… |
annegb – I think you can provide a “opt-in” celebration with a handout after the meeting, without turning the meeting itself into dreck. Make a tacit acknowledgement with the brownie or whatever, but let the meetings continue in peace. Of course, I’d be happy if my Texas ward dumped Pioneer Day celebrations… |
I’m all for banning religious observance of both Mother’s Day and Father’s Day. The talks are almost always dreadful and certain to offend some segment of the audience. When did they (especially Mother’s Day, nobody cares about Father’s Day if you’re honest about it) become LDS holidays anyhow? Why does everyone go into crisis mode over flowers that you’re never going to plant? |
My friend is a bishop of a ward with a lot of naive Beehives. He got tired of the “oh, I’ll just get married” career plan, so he asked the new YW president (a older woman, not the type you might normally see) to talk about it. She gave them the “what if your husband is a deadbeat, or gets laid off, or leaves you” scenario, and a lot of the parents were offended that their Beehives were exposed to those possibilities at such an early age. My friend figures, you might as well inoculate them early… |
I have my own issues with the YW program I grew up with — seriously, how many make-up sessions can one tomboy/geek girl take? — but I have to say that I think people who get all wrapped around the axle about their “worth = having babies” are doing it to themselves. Maybe it’s a geographical thing– I was in a small ward in the Baltimore/D.C. area, not the Wasatch Front– but I always felt like they were saying “this is important in your life and we want you to think about it” not “this is the most important thing you will ever do in your life, don’t even think of wasting your time with anything else.” |
While I have talked about different aspects of our decision, I have run out of polite ways to tell her its none of her business. Do this blunt young girl a favor and quit trying to be polite about it. Next time she asks is the perfect time to tell her just that. She’s 13– she may have no idea how nosy she sounds or maybe she does but either way you can tell her now that she’s being rude or you can let her go through her life friendless because she doesn’t know how she’s pushing people away. |
I have my own issues with the YW program I grew up with — seriously, how many make-up sessions can one tomboy/geek girl take? — but I have to say that I think people who get all wrapped around the axle about their “worth = having babies†are doing it to themselves. Maybe it’s a geographical thing– I was in a small ward in the Baltimore/D.C. area, not the Wasatch Front– but I always felt like they were saying “this is important in your life and we want you to think about it†not “this is the most important thing you will ever do in your life, don’t even think of wasting your time with anything else.†I absolutely agree … the problem is when they turn negative on education and missionary possibilities. I’m OK with marriage and children discussions — In fact, I’d have problems if they DIDN’T discuss marriage and children. It’s when other legitimate possibilities are devalued to my daughter, that I have issues. Achievement Days (or whatever they call them) have been a three-year waste, in my opinion, except to get on her case for being late (because she had a school activity every Wednesday after school that caused her to be 10 min. late to a discussion on hair care or whatever inane thing they are doing in AD). I don’t see an avenue for fathers to get involved in YW/AD like we can with cub scouts and scouting. |
#39 Queuno We kinda have the same thing going here. Our Achievement/Activity Days program is not a nightmare, but the it could use some spice. So a friend and I have decided to stage a temporary coup. The program gets shut down over the summer, so we have kindly offered to do it for the leaders for the next almost three months. We have all sort of fun games and outings planned. I am truly looking forward to this. I am willing to be obnoxious so my kids have a good church experience. |
Devyn, |
I made the radical statement a couple of Wednesdays ago that, in my opinion, Cub Scouts and AAD should be combined, with common leadership, and participate in similar activities. You don’t schedule one without the other. |
Anne – it was kind of funny to me – we often make such mountains of molehills in the Church. I do like the idea of getting men something for Father’s Day. Leigh – Queuno and PDOE have some good ideas. When my wife and I used to get that question – we were married for 10 years before we had kids, I resorted to the “I can’t get an erection” to nosy adults. That usually shut them up! ARJ – I agree with you – no one cares about Father’s Day – Queunos is the first instance I have ever heard of where a ward distributed something for Father’s Day. |
#36 Queuno – amen – we should instill the reality of life to these kids. Otherwise they grow up to be ignorant adults with little empathy for those who are different. Pioneer Day – now that is a stupid thing to celebrate outside of Utah. They tried it in our ward here in Boston and most of the natives just chuckled and let the Utahns have their fun… JABenson – good for you. Maybe you can reset a higher bar for the achievement days. Mmiles – Fair point, certainly not what was intended, but I certainly do feel at times like the Church curriculum is saying that very thing. |
We experienced the worst idea for a Mother’s Day a few years ago. The bishop asked all the mothers to stand. Then he asked for those with more than 2 kids to keep standing, then 3 kids, and so forth. Since none of ours had survived, my wife wasn’t sure whether they counted for her to stand up, and if so, when she should sit down. All in all, it was embarassing and unpleasant. In our current ward, they skip plants and flowers and give all women over 18 a CD. For Father’s Day, they give candy bars. |
CS Eric – that is a really stupid idea, I cannot believe your Bishop did that. That would certainly go a long way to pissing off half the ward. I like the CD idea and love the candy bar idea. I may suggest that to our Bishop! |
I freely admit to being one of the “avoiding church on mothers day” types.. Oh, and I’m not anywhere near the Wasatch, though I did live there for a time as an upper 20′s single working gal.. hehe.. |
This may have been said already, so please forgive, I didn’t have time to read through the comments… In our ward all the women were given flowers because, in our bishop’s opinion, all women have been or will be mothers here or elsewhere. Sure, there are big yawning holes in that reasoning, but heck, snaps for diplomacy. |
bookladydavina – thanks for your comments – I appreciate your candor and certainly think that your perspective is valuable and should be valued in a ward. Unfortunately, it seems all of us in the Church are imperfect. Good luck to you and your husband! David T – seems to be much better reasoning that some of the antics Bishops have done on this thread. |
Pioneer Day – now that is a stupid thing to celebrate outside of Utah. I get accused by Utah transplants all the time of “just not getting it” when I dismiss Pioneer Day as a Utah holiday. That’s the one time I pull out my family history and let ‘em have it (I hate people who mention how many generations they are, as a token of faithfulness, and I dismiss the idea of DNA or cultural Mormons — if you’ve left the Church, you’re not a Mormon, sorry). I had an ex-gf at BYU who was particularly annoyed about it, and even more so annoyed when I casually reminded her that I was related to the name on the building we were standing under. But seriously – I’m the first person on either side of my family born OUTSIDE Utah since the Emigration westward. My parents migrated eastward (fortunately stopping before they went too far) to make their life, and I am the grateful beneficiary of that. We need to reinforce the idea that there are pioneers around the world. I am inspired by the faithful saints who grew the Church where I grew up. I continue to now reap the benefits of the pioneers who built the Church in Texas. I have seen first-hand pioneers in South America and Russia. While it’s great history to continue to trot out the wagon and handcart companies, it’s reductive to continue to exclusively celebrate them outside Utah. Maybe I’m getting my comeuppance – my daughter is becoming intensely interested in her pioneer heritage, so much so that she wants to travel to Utah for Pioneer Day celebration (and to go visit the graves of her ancestors who still live there). She gave a memorable half-hour presentation on Nauvoo and the Pioneers — complete with slides — to her 5th-grade social studies class. |
and to go visit the graves of her ancestors who still live there Wow. I’m really off today. Strike that last clause. |
Back to the student loan issue: that isn’t so much an issue of personal choice as an issue of another seemingly gender-neutral structuring plan that more negatively impacts women as a class. When faced with that option, I turned down the top-rated law schools in favor of a second-tier school that would offer me a full ride. Even the poverty-law related scholarship offers I got would require ten years of working full time in a non-profit environment. I don’t regret it– it’s really really nice to have only my husband’s graduate school loans to contend with– but I think the emphasis on this issue was misplaced in the various posts that addressed it. The financial industry slash government could quite easily offer deferments for maternity, as it does for other reasons (military service, etc.). |
Queuno #50 Good for your daughter and her “turning her heart to her fathers/mothers”. She is my kind of kid. I liked graveyards too. The town we live in is historical and the site of a Civil War battle. We have some fascinating graveyards. |
Queuno – I guess her ancestors do still “live” in Utah, just a much smaller house than the 5000 square foot McMansions that dot the area… I agree with you that celebrating Pioneers is useful, but celebrating Utah pioneers at this point outside of Utah is a bit pointless… Emily – Great idea on the loan deferment. It would seem to make a slot of sense. JABenson – I agree we are all Mormon Pioneers, just not sure how relevant a handcart is to people in my ward. Celebrating my wardmembers as Pioneers makes sense though. |
I am totally with you on the handcart thing. this summer our stake is doing one of those handcart re-enactments for youth conference. I feel uncomfortable with my teenager dressing in clothes similar to the FLDS and drawing attention to o themselves in that way; in some small community in the hills. Why can’t they do an Exodus? This involves scripture and would apply to everyone. After all they just finished the OT in seminary. |
I am with you on the not interested in a handcart experience, but how is an exodus less weird? Scavanging for manna, parting bodies of water, following a cloud–it seems it could also be a lightening-rod for ridicule. |
JABenson/ESO – I think the exodus is at least explainable to mainstream Christians. Reenacting handcart exodus is a bit silly and you likely look like the FLDS wackos. Of course, a nice mix would be to ignore the entire thing and move to doing other things that reflect on sacrifices… |
The town we live in is historical and the site of a Civil War battle. We have some fascinating graveyards. My daughter keeps asking me when we’ll do a trip to Gettysburg, Vicksburg, etc. She’s green with envy that recent business trips have taken me to Philadelphia. |
I am with you on the not interested in a handcart experience, but how is an exodus less weird? Scavanging for manna, parting bodies of water, following a cloud–it seems it could also be a lightening-rod for ridicule. I disagree. The engineering work required to replicate the parting of the Red Sea would far outstrip anything that we help with to build a cart. Imagine how green with envy the Baptists would be if we could replicate the 7 plagues. They would *love* it. They would help! It would be the greatest ecumenical mind-meld in recent years… |
Emily – My brother did the same thing with his law school experience. Now he has little debt but his wife has six figures debt. They’re not waiting to start a family, though. |
Queuno – replicate the seven plagues and the parting of the red sea – wow, that would be cool! |
I’m serious – a reenactment of the Exodus would be so much cooler than a pioneer trek. The kids can even get involved in the science/engineering aspect of it. You could even *SELL TICKETS* to community members and raise money for Scout camp! |
Perhaps Texas could do this reenactment? It could be bigger than the Hill Cumorah Pageant! There is plenty of empty space for various plagues, pillars of fire, etc. What a missionary tool! Join us and you get an antidote or you go home with a plague… |
This would dovetail with my idea for a Mormon-themed amusement park. A tar-and-feathering side, a ride where you are surrounded by seagulls, a ride where you hear “I am a Child of God” over and over again, a log ride with water (to symbolize crossing the Mississippi), maybe even an exploding Saluda… |
WOW I take a kid to lessons and a discussion happens! We live in the southeastern US. The Church of Christ, Baptists etc.. will put on summer Vacation Bible School. There is lots of dressing up and re-enacting bible themes. It is a great way for kids to learn scripture. I think that our kids would benefit from the OT. Some investor tried to get a Bible Theme Park here and it was voted down big time. |
But, JA – did they have a red sea parting and locusts? We need to find a way to make this happen… :) |
I have only seen/heard of “Bible World”. The Church of Christ made a very realistic market street in pretend Jerusalem. They did a re-enactment of the stoning of Stephen that really wigged out my then 7 year old. No Red Sea or locusts sorry. |
Maybe the Creation Museum is an acceptable alternative. (evil grin) |
See Kevin Barney for that one :) |
You know, you just can’t win on the Mother’s Day thing at church, no matter what you do. A couple of you have cheered for wards that give flowers or CDs to every woman over 18. That’s exactly the thing that makes Mother’s Day impossible for me — I would be very happy to celebrate motherhood in general, but I hate being forced to stand for a watered down all-women-over-18 day. Bishops insist you stand, embarrassing you from the stand if you do not and refusing to continue until red-faced and near tears you do stand just to get the horror over with. The guys passing out the stupid flowers won’t take a quiet “no, thank you” for an answer, either. You can’t win. |
Mormon themed amusement park – I like it. You could have games like “shoot the communist”, “ex the apostate”, etc. good times… Bible world – while frightening, it does sound like a place where a child could learn the OT, just not clear what other baggage they may pick up. Ardis – What is your ideal solution? Ignore Mother’s day? |
I am sorry #70 Ardis. Mothers day should be a volunteer thing. People can be such goof balls. #71 Devyn We like Vacation Bible School. Not too much baggage. It was good for my 7 year old to learn about the seriousness of committing to baptism and to be a Christian. It is a sweet memory of him asking about Christian martyrs. He wanted to know who else had died for being a Christian. I listed a few people including Joseph Smith and he starts wailing, “HIM TOO!!” He finally decided to be baptized after a few days of pondering the serious of the covenant. He was one serious little kid. WHAAA he is now on a mission. They grow up too fast. |
Ardis – I think the solution should be an announcement that there’s a flower|CD|chocolate bar available in the foyer or in the kitchen or somewhere, for people to go get. Then it’s an opt-in solution. |
(But to continue Devyn’s question – actually, I would prefer that they just casually mentioned MD and FD from the pulpit and stopped at that…) |
I do know of several sisters who make a beeline for the library or the primary room at the start of the last verse of the closing song, so that they don’t have to be there at all … and that just makes it unfortunate. |
JA Benson – Yes, that rapidly passing time is what frightens me – it sounds like your son has been an adult his entire life. Our son is already 2 and growing fast. There are, obviously, not many bible schools in New England for him to attend… |
[...] The Mother’s Day Massacre of 1987. [...] |
Devyn S.- |