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Thoughts: 1. Abandon release-time seminary. Hold it after school or before school. Early-morning seminary works fine outside Utah and AZ — it’ll work well in Utah and AZ. 2. Get rid of the paid ministry aka instructors. They are no better than volunteer teachers (it’s more of a devotional hour than true instruction). If wards and stakes outside the Zion Corridor can call people who make seminary interesting at 6am, Corridor stakes can do it also. (Our ward combines with two others and teaches at both 6am and 7am — we actually have three brethren from our ward called. All are excellent teachers and prepare diligently. And they discuss hard subjects.) 3. I wonder if Utah’s high schools could handle the influx of students needing to fill their schedule, if you got rid of seminary. Has the Church basically been bailing out the educational system by taking one period off the schools’ hands? 4. Religion courses at BYU are completely hit or miss. The most compelling courses are taught by the non-religion faculty, in my opinion. 5. I checked out an institute class in my area. It was an utter waste. I’ve heard analysis that institutes work best when they are actually connected to a university, and not just “singles wards”, which may be the problem where I live. |
I loved scripture mastery in my seminary class. I wasn’t in seminary for some of the time (I had to ride my bike at 5:30am in order to make it to seminary. This was in Santa Clara, California and I couldn’t motivate myself to go every day). I loved scripture mastery, though. I was the best at it. My scriptures were properly wrinkled so that I would open immediately to the right verse within at the most, two seconds. I went to a couple of Institute classes in the South Bay Area after high school, but I found them boring, and was more interested in a certain girl at the time. If she went, I went. On my mission, I learned an unbelievable amount about the Gospel, the church, history, and archaeology. I devoured books left and right. I read the Book of Mormon 14 times during my mission. I read the New Testament 4 times, the D&C 3 times, the Old Testament twice. I read Jesus the Christ twice. I read the church history books and was utterly fascinated by Joseph Smith’s experiences. The reason for all this learning on the mission was because I had a situation where I was beaten, badly, in a debate in the park with a Jehovah’s Witness. He crushed me. I had no clue what he meant about Elohim. That was never something I was taught previously. He crushed me so badly, I vowed never to lose another debate about scripture. And I didn’t. In fact, I got so good at it, a few months later, I debated another JW to the point of making her cry. But all that knowledge came to be quite important for one family, one sister in particular. This one family that we met had all sorts of questions about the gospel. Because of all the studying I did, I could, with ease, point to scripture after scripture for their answers. This helped in their conversion process, that answers can indeed be found in this church. I’ve slacked off over the years and couldn’t point to scriptures the same way today as I did then. But there was a time when I could name you what chapter of the Book of Mormon you are talking about just by simply reading to me the brief intro that each chapter has. At UVSC and BYU, I took religion classes, but again they felt boring in comparison with the learning I did on my mission. |
I agree that early morning seems to be the best model of Seminary–the hardship of it automatically makes it an “honors” section. I gained a great deal from my experience. When the local CES guy came to speak at our unit (rural university town), he really talked up Institute, of course. When we asked why he had cancelled the small section of Institute that used to be held at our building for people from 60 miles around, he revealed the true purpose of Institute: matchmaking. He explained these smaller sections were useless because the people who attended developed sibling relationships, rather than romantic ones–they needed a larger group so there was a constantly revolving market. He could not solve our dilema of our local university students not having transportation to get to the “big” institute an hour away or that although they lived on the same campus, they didn’t know each other as they were not regular attenders at our family ward (we had hoped a local Institute could have addressed their needs). |
I didn’t do seminary, since I joined the church when I was 21. I taught it for a week though, and I can say it is basically a facty that I was just amazed the kids got up that early. They were mainly good kids. I have had good experiences with Institute. I took Book of Mormon in College as a new convert and had a pretty good experience. I took a missionary class which was also good for a new convert. (It was taught by sister missionaries) More recently, when I got married, we had a married couples institute class we occasionally attended that was really good (Basically, it was well to do members of the stake coming in and talking about finances, etc.) I took an NT class at IU when I was in college, which was extremely challenging (almost atheistic?) but I went to BYU for a day to visit some people and was interested to see we were discussing the same things, just in different tones. One thing that really impressed me was that the teacher (Camille Fronk) took a personal interest in me and we talked for about an hour after class about women and the priesthood in the New Testament. My NT teacher at IU was not the same. |
This is a great post – thanks. My release time seminary experience was similar to yours – an utter waste of time. I went to BYU and also took Institute courses while doing a graduate degree. I would agree with Queuno – take a BYU religion course by a non-religion faculty member if you want to learn something. With that said, I did have one seminary teacher who was good – he tried to teach some level of doctrine, but it was challenging given the mixed nature of kids in the class. ESO – that is what my institute teachers thought it was for – matchmaking - |
I remember regarding seminary as a lot of different things as a teenager. Some of them were positive. I think I had some valid spiritual experiences there. I also think there was a bit of scriptural information that trickled into my brain. But looking back, the negatives are the most prominent. Boredom is a pretty dominant theme. There is also a strong vein of contempt for teachers who would raise students’ grades just because the student whined and wheedled it out of them. Teenagers are all about fairness. They may look disinterested and uncaring. But mark my words – the moment you start playing favorites or disrespecting the rules of the game, they will begin to despise you. I mostly agree with queno. I think the whole release-time system ought to be scrapped and turned over to non-professionals. Either that or actually make the curriculum challenging and an actual academic program. You can’t have the current system run by a bunch of professional “testimony bearers.” Really it’s just priestcraft – subverting the precious gifts of the spirit for gain, and the hopes that eventually you’ll get a coveted slot on the EFY speaking circuit and be asked to speak at firesides. |
queuno, I agree with all your points. Point #3 is especially compelling. Utah schools are already crowded. In some areas elimination release time seminary would mean that a high school would immediately need ten (or more) additional classrooms and instructors. That would be a short-term disaster in Utah. It is also worth noting that Utah high-schools accomodate seminary by not requiring students to take a full course-load in order to graduate. Thus students that haven’t taken seminary can (if they want to) take only one or two classes the second half of their senior year and still graduate. Of course their peers in seminary have just wasted the equivalent of a half a year of full-time schooling, so I suppose this all works out. Dan, I hated scripture mastery. memorizing a scripture completely out of context in order to utilize it as an LDS proof-text struck me as odd even as a high-schooler. Plus I was officially banned from all the scripture mastery games/contests so that didn’t help. |
ESO, That story is great. Since you aren’t big even to have a meet-market you don’t get any institute at all. Lovely. I’ll repeat myself and say that in my opinion the best way to encourage people to attend institute (and thereby have critical mass for match-making) is to make the classes challenging and interesting. Otherwise the only motivation to show up is the meet-market aspect, which makes the whole thing a little creepy. |
Matt W., Let me assure you that you didn’t miss much by not attending seminary. Well, you did miss Aaron Eckhart’s classic, “What about the pain?!?” line in one of the seminary videos in which I believe his character fornicated with his girlfriend. I would guess that most of the female students were looking at Aaron Eckhart and weighing the pros and cons of fornication in a whole new light. Devyn S., My experience with BYU religion classes is limited to what I mentioned in my post: sitting in on one class one time. That said, it was enough to make me think that if I had attended BYU if the instructors didn’t drive me insane, my classmates surely would. Seth R., I remember watching in amazement as a seminary teacher yielded in front of the whole class to the obviously baseless pleadings of a student to have a grade changed. I turned to the kid behind me and said in a loud voice, “This is why I hate seminary: because it’s a sham.” The whole class went silent until the teacher started clowning around again. As class ended I was asked to stay. I was asked why I was being disruptive and I responded with pretty much the same points in this post. That seminary should be a high-school level course in religion, not entertainment where you got an A for showing up. The teacher suggested that if I wanted serious learning I should read my scriptures at home. I told him that I did that everyday and that what I wanted was for him to not waste my time in seminary, not more work to do at home. The conversation ended with each of us frustrated with the other. |
#2, I could have written your post. That was exactly my experience. I endured seminary and loathe institute, and it’s because it didn’t and doesn’t deliver actual content. I was overjoyed to discover as an adult that there is more to the gospel than sentimental stories best suited for e-mails from your great aunts. There is actual substance, and I love that. I credit my mission president, who WAS an institute teacher before he was called but was willing to teach us actual content. Absolutely amazing – if there were a class that could mimic the experience, I’d happily take it. |
Since Institute classes don’t really grade students in any meaningful fashion, I think it comes down to individual instructors and their passion for teaching the material. When I was at SUU, I looked in on all the instructors’ offices. One instructor had a small bookshelf, and have covered his walls with souvenir buttons. Another instructor had his office crammed with books, with shelving on every wall and a removable book cart for the overflow — all the latest books from Church sources, Mormon-oriented publishers (Signature, etc.) and even a few of the anti-Mormon “standards.” I avoided courses from that first instructor, and sought out classes from the second every chance I could. |
Just like life, seminary and institute are what you make them. I’ve had great teachers and slept through the lesson. I’ve had not as great teachers and read through the lesson and got something out of it myself….. |
Sam, Yeah, let’s blame the 9th graders for the fact that their teachers are wasting their time. Good grief. The program has serious flaws that are not the fault of its students. Using logic such as yours there’s no motivation to even go to the class since sitting at home is what you make of it. |
arJ, It would be implausible, I think, for seminary to be taught on the level of a high school class, simply because of the level of preparation it would require. When my wife was teaching early-morning seminary (pregnant with our first child), she’d put in five to eight hours of preparation a day (which, I realize, would go down in subsequent years). That works when you work part-time and don’t have children, or if it’s your full-time job, but for those of us who do not, and probably never will, live somewhere that has professional seminary teachers, such a high-functioning level of seminary would be impossible. (You can add to it that the seminary materials for teachers were perhaps worse than horrible: part of the reason that it took so long to prepare was that the materials didn’t offer her anything that would reasonably interest or challenge the kids.) That said, though, you’re right. I didn’t care one way or the other about seminary–it didn’t hurt me, but then, I only went when I felt like it. I was generally disappointed by my BYU religion classes, and only took them because I had to graduate. My first year of law school I went to institute, but that was because my then-girlfriend, now wife, was on the institute counsel (or something) and felt like she had a duty to attend. |
(Can I point out that I’m not the “Sam” above, and don’t mean my question to be snarky? I don’t know much about release-time style seminary. Does the grade matter for anything? Like, does a release-time grade show up on your transcript? Is your actual academic life hurt if you sign up for release-time and then quit going?) |
Sam B., The grade does not appear on your high school transcript. The only thing it might affect is your parent’s opinion of you and possibly seminary graduation, but honestly, seminary graduation is an attendance award. |
a random john, i didn’t mean to step on a nerve there. Sunday school has its flaws as well. What should we do there? None of it is perfect, but you suck it up and make the best of it anyway (even if you are in 9th grade). Also, thanks for your faulty implied logic on my behalf, i’m pretty sure i said what i meant. Make the best of whatever your circumstance may be (see that does not imply stay at home and make the best of being at home). |
Sam, |
Sam B., I’m sorry, I missed your 14. I continued to attend seminary in order to maintain a good relationship with my mother and be a good example to my younger siblings. My parents were well aware of my opinion of release time seminary. Once I was in college I stopped going after I found that it wouldn’t be any better than it was in high school. The fact that my parents were about a thousand miles away facilitated things. Once we had a decent institute director/instructor I attended again not because of any pressure from parents or Church leaders but because of the quality of the classes themselves. I agree that volunteer taught seminary would be difficult to teach on the level that I think should be the goal for release time seminary, but perhaps if release time seminary were taught on such a level the materials to teach it in such a way would be produced. |
When teaching is effective, the scriptures are absolutely fascinating. It’s a shame when instruction doesn’t do the material proper justice. |
I had release-time seminary and found it to be absolutely critical in determining my class schedule. You see, if you scheduled seminary right after your lunch period, then you could sluff and treat yourself to a long lunch or get some homework done early if you had a hot date scheduled for later. As long as you didn’t sluff too often the worst you ever had to worry about was watching a few extra conference talks (thank you VCR) and writing a paragraph or two about what was said. Good memories, but in seriousness I had an exceptional teacher my junior and senior years (same man both years) and I really enjoyed learning in his class (not so much that I never took a long lunch, but I digress). My freshman and sophomore year were more the don’t-quit-even-though-this-class-is-boring type teacher and they spent more time as cheerleaders for the program than teachers. |
I remember one of our female seminary teachers was extremely good-looking. So I guess that was one positive… One question though… If you can release-time seminary in Utah, where DO you get new blood for the EFY/Education Week youth speaking circuit? And if you have no new dog-and-pony-show EFY speakers, what happens to local Provo businesses that count-on the influx of travelers during those events? |
And most importantly, how will the changed dynamic impact the stockpile of “BYU Brownies” in the Cougareat? |
Memories of high school seminary: But I liked BYU’s religion classes, especially after getting past Book of Mormon classes. Kelly Ogden was one of my favorite instructors of New Testament. He had just gotten back from the Jerusalem Center and gave us so much insight. |
I enjoyed seminary enough to sign up for early morning every year even though they were trying to get rid of it because of the availability of every class period. In college, I found some really bland institute teachers. One annoyed me and I told him one day that he acted like no one had ever read the Book of Mormon before and that I’d read it plenty of times and didn’t need to talk about who Nephi’s father was. He said that I was probably the only one who’d read it a lot. Wow. I didn’t take from him again. But I did find a lot of other great teachers and I was glad for the wide selection. In between graduating and getting a job, I attended 5 institute classes for a couple of months. That was awesome. Now, living in Germany, I can just say, be thankful for what you get. One class per week is all that’s available and it’s just from some random person called to teach. Overall, though, I think that there’s always something to learn, especially if the student does personal study before to prepare. Then they are more perceptive to answers no matter how good the teacher is (the Holy Ghost is the best teacher) and they can ask better questions which make the teachers better teachers. |
I can only speak from my experience and of those I know, but I feel compelled to defend the now changed? CES program. I have a brother who struggled through high school and the first few years after. Without going into too much detail, it came to a point where he was traveling in a car where people were pulling out guns to go and wreck havoc somewhere. He told them to stop and got out. He was also into some drugs and had a child out of wedlock. I say all that to share this – if you met him now, you would never know all he has passed through. You would never know he never served a mission or was ever so far away from the Church. If you saw a picture or him them and now, it’s possible you would say they were different people. And much of this change he himself would say was facilitated through the CES system. Through a seminary teacher who kept reaching out to him when he didn’t listen. Through the many CES classes taught by those abused BYU and institute teachers mentioned above – he literally would take 2 or 3 classes of religion each semester. I think he took every byu and uvsc religion class he could. He gained knowledge, but he mostly came to know the spirit taught by some great teachers and some that were just trying to make a difference in his life. Again, I repeat that if he were speaking to you he would emphasize even more the difference CES made in his life – because he has done so to me. Without more detail, know that many teachers reached out and enabled him to come unto Christ. And they are some of the EFY, BYU education week people ridiculed above – people like Scott Anderson, Robert Millet, Randy Bott, Jack Christianson, Susan Easton Black and Truman Madsen. All of whom he took multiple times and who helped him come to the Savior and COMPLETELY change. Some teachers may not be that great. The curriculum may not be the most rigorous. But every teacher I have known has loved and tried to serve those whom they teach. And some may not have had the training or ability to dive into all the intellectual routes wanted, and it was all they could do to bear their testimonies. But I know this, the seminary and institute programs have been a haven for many that i know. They have allowed many too change who would have struggled much more to do so without them. My brother’s life is the example of not just what they could be, but of what they already are. |
DROM, Thank you for your perspective on this. I realize the discussion has been very one-sided up until now. I’m happy to hear that your brother has turned his life around. On the question of devotional vs academic content in CES courses, is there some reason why it can’t be a bit of both? Would CES have been less able to help your brother if more rigorous classes were offered as well? Would the ability of the teachers to love and counsel their students be compromised? I’m not claiming that CES does no good at all, but I am claiming that they aren’t doing seemingly obvious things that would benefit their students, and in some cases they drive people away from the program. As for the training, given that CES has actively discouraged its employees from getting degrees in relevant academic areas (most of my seminary teachers has either business or PE degrees) I’m not sure what one can expect. Finally, on the subject of EFY speakers, I’ve never been to EFY so there isn’t much I can say on the subject. I’m sure they are at least a handful of readers that are thankful for that. |
It’s easy to bash CES and its representatives or even honestly question if what they are doing is the best way to do it. That is, until DROM tells us all about God’s work being successfully carried out through CES in a very real way. My personal experience with CES is probably similar to what many have experienced, at least those who woke up at 5am every school day. My teachers were never intellectual or overly knowledgeable, and I’m grateful for that. If that’s what would have been offered, half my class would be off the deep end right now. More important things happened in Seminary. And let us never neglect to acknowledge the challenge of teaching teenagers. My BYU courses were hit-and-miss. There were a number of very good courses that seemed to have a secular weight. But there was always a spirit to be conveyed or some connection to testimony. That may seem cheesy or unnecessary to some, but I argue that such things cannot be separated from the Gospel unless you’re simply in a Near Eastern History Course. It has always irked me that in the BoM Belt seminary is a paying enterprise. I think that is a shame. Whatever change may take place, I doubt it will be very noticeable besides name-wise, and I’m not entirely against that. |
I would agree with Queuno – take a BYU religion course by a non-religion faculty member if you want to learn something. Full disclosure – I have a family member who is a faculty member at BYU, in a non-religion department capacity. I don’t believe he has taught BoM yet, but I’d be interested in teaching his class. Though young, he is a well-liked up-and-comer. The best BoM class I ever took was from one of the founders of Hogi Yogi — a very spiritual and devoted man. I also have a cousin who teaches seminary in Utah, and I once dated a girl whose dad was a seminary teacher in the Zion Corridor (but not in Utah). In my early morning seminary, we had “difficult” discussions about difficult topics, including polygamy, the priesthood, the temple (as much as you could talk to 16-year-olds), the PoGP, etc. I remember a rather heated discussion about prophetic succession after President Kimball died, and a dedicated teacher It is difficult for me to envision how a non-scalable teaching mechanism implemented in a limited geography that piggybacks and depends so much on the local schools (which is in and of itself problematic) could possibly be better than our early morning solution (which scales up easily). It depends almost entirely on the teachers, in both cases. |
I’d be interested in teaching his class uh, TAKING his class, whenever he does teach it. |
Darn it, I can’t type today in 29. To finish my thought - and a dedicated teacher who patiently listened to our complaints and doubts and tried to present difficult truths, even though some of us weren’t accepting. |
teen-agers scheduling & sleep deprivation have been (well?) documented. Having early morning seminary SUCKS for parents & kids. |
queuno, early morning seminary is the biggest waste ever since everyone is too tired to learn. |
Quote found on the SIR website:
Oddly enough I think this quote condemns the current CES/SIR program which completely fails to meet the standard of study that is set forth in the quote. |
FWIW, I put up some lengthy thoughts about CES a few weeks ago, based on my experiences teaching at BYU and as a volunteer Institute teacher for multiple years. |
Nitsav, Thanks for the link to your excellent post. It is much more thoughtful than mine. Mine however, destroys your’s in the ranting department. |
“It is a paradox that men will gladly devote time every day for many years to learn a science or an art; yet will expect to win a knowledge of the gospel, which comprehends all sciences and arts, through perfunctory glances at books or occasional listening to sermons. The gospel should be studied more intensively than any school or college subject. They who pass opinion on the gospel without having given it intimate and careful study are not lovers of truth, and their opinions are worthless†(John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, arr. G. Homer Durham [1987], 16–17). In other news, SWK had Naomi Randall change the lyrics from “teach me all that I must know” to “teach me all that I must do”. |
queuno, I think that Elder Oaks would change it again to “teach me all that I must be.” |
lol |
Thank you for letting me know I’m not alone in my disdain for fried twinkie entertainment served as gospel meat :) |