Comments on: Is Charity a Gift of the Spirit? http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People Tue, 07 Sep 2010 05:50:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: queuno http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85224 queuno Fri, 23 May 2008 00:37:15 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-85224 Some of the most charitable people I know have lost their faith and barely clinging to the third sister, hope. Some of the most charitable people I know have lost their faith and barely clinging to the third sister, hope.

]]> By: Sunshine http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85118 Sunshine Thu, 22 May 2008 05:03:21 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-85118 "Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a “gift”?, yes as are all gifts/talents. Some are born (just like queuno said) with a small seed, others the biggest darn seed of charity I have ever seen. “Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a gift?” the answer is no, it is impossible. Charity comes from God only and can be obtained only through the gift of faith. There are other forms of love, of course, but charity, the love of God, can only be given by Him to those of faith, which is why we must pray to Him to get it." I don't buy it. So, (if I can explain this correctly) those people who are born into a crap whole of a life and because of circumstance aren't given the gift of charity? Stay with me here, I think I might be on a thin line, but I don't think you have to have faith to have Charity. You could be walking along in the crap whole of a life you have with a drunk for a dad, and a drug user for a mom and your telling me that they only way I can have charity is if I have faith that my life will get better? (Which could be so) But I wouldn't be given an opportunity to taste of charity first(the pure love of Christ) without faith and then begin to develop it because I now know it exists? Or is it a two sided coin? you have to have faith to have charity and you have to have charity to have faith. One can't be without the other? I just don't think that God would leave the less fortunate out, or those who have never been taught the concept of faith. “Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a “gift”?,

yes as are all gifts/talents. Some are born (just like queuno said) with a small seed, others the biggest darn seed of charity I have ever seen.

“Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a gift?” the answer is no, it is impossible. Charity comes from God only and can be obtained only through the gift of faith. There are other forms of love, of course, but charity, the love of God, can only be given by Him to those of faith, which is why we must pray to Him to get it.”

I don’t buy it. So, (if I can explain this correctly) those people who are born into a crap whole of a life and because of circumstance aren’t given the gift of charity? Stay with me here, I think I might be on a thin line, but I don’t think you have to have faith to have Charity. You could be walking along in the crap whole of a life you have with a drunk for a dad, and a drug user for a mom and your telling me that they only way I can have charity is if I have faith that my life will get better? (Which could be so) But I wouldn’t be given an opportunity to taste of charity first(the pure love of Christ) without faith and then begin to develop it because I now know it exists? Or is it a two sided coin? you have to have faith to have charity and you have to have charity to have faith. One can’t be without the other?

I just don’t think that God would leave the less fortunate out, or those who have never been taught the concept of faith.

]]> By: a random John http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85098 a random John Thu, 22 May 2008 01:57:06 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-85098 LDS A., Perhaps I'm simply too proud to grasp that. LDS A.,

Perhaps I’m simply too proud to grasp that.

]]> By: queuno http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85091 queuno Thu, 22 May 2008 01:39:35 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-85091 <i>Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a “gift”?</i> I would kinda say yes. We are all commanded to develop charity, and I believe we all have that tiny seed. But some people were born with a fairly large seed. Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a “gift”?

I would kinda say yes. We are all commanded to develop charity, and I believe we all have that tiny seed. But some people were born with a fairly large seed.

]]> By: LDS Anarchist http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85080 LDS Anarchist Thu, 22 May 2008 00:08:56 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-85080 arj, yes, faith and charity are two different things. But charity cannot be obtain except through the gift of faith, which brings the gift of hope, which brings the gifts of meekness and lowliness of heart, all of which bring the gift of charity. Paul and Mormon and Moroni were trying to explain that the whole purpose of faith (the gift of faith) is to obtain charity. We don't get faith to move mountains or raise the dead or any of the other things that faith does. The whole purpose to the gift of faith is so that we can obtain charity. Period. Everything else that faith gets us is an appendage to that, which is why if we couldn't obtain charity with faith, but could obtain all other things with faith, we have nothing and are nothing, for it brings us no satisfaction to have power to do all things but not be filled with the love of God and his Christ. When seen in this light, namely, that the gift of faith has the express purpose of obtaining charity, then the list of best gifts given by Paul, Moroni and the Lord imply the gift of charity under the gift of faith (or, as Moroni puts it, the gift of exceedingly great faith.) The Lord and Paul and Moroni list the gift of faith and not the gift of charity because you can't obtain charity any other way, except through the gift of faith. That is the only way to get it. He (the Lord) cannot bestow charity upon an individual devoid of faith, hope, meekness and lowliness of heart. However, once we have faith, we now have a hope of receiving that which we have faith to receive and can ask God, believing we will receive, to bestow (give) upon us charity. (See #20 Adam's quoted scripture and the use of the word "bestowed." It is the same as saying he gave, as in he gave a gift.) So, as to your question, "Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a gift?" the answer is no, it is impossible. Charity comes from God only and can be obtained only through the gift of faith. There are other forms of love, of course, but charity, the love of God, can only be given by Him to those of faith, which is why we must pray to Him to get it. arj, yes, faith and charity are two different things. But charity cannot be obtain except through the gift of faith, which brings the gift of hope, which brings the gifts of meekness and lowliness of heart, all of which bring the gift of charity. Paul and Mormon and Moroni were trying to explain that the whole purpose of faith (the gift of faith) is to obtain charity. We don’t get faith to move mountains or raise the dead or any of the other things that faith does. The whole purpose to the gift of faith is so that we can obtain charity. Period. Everything else that faith gets us is an appendage to that, which is why if we couldn’t obtain charity with faith, but could obtain all other things with faith, we have nothing and are nothing, for it brings us no satisfaction to have power to do all things but not be filled with the love of God and his Christ.

When seen in this light, namely, that the gift of faith has the express purpose of obtaining charity, then the list of best gifts given by Paul, Moroni and the Lord imply the gift of charity under the gift of faith (or, as Moroni puts it, the gift of exceedingly great faith.)

The Lord and Paul and Moroni list the gift of faith and not the gift of charity because you can’t obtain charity any other way, except through the gift of faith. That is the only way to get it. He (the Lord) cannot bestow charity upon an individual devoid of faith, hope, meekness and lowliness of heart. However, once we have faith, we now have a hope of receiving that which we have faith to receive and can ask God, believing we will receive, to bestow (give) upon us charity. (See #20 Adam’s quoted scripture and the use of the word “bestowed.” It is the same as saying he gave, as in he gave a gift.)

So, as to your question, “Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a gift?” the answer is no, it is impossible. Charity comes from God only and can be obtained only through the gift of faith. There are other forms of love, of course, but charity, the love of God, can only be given by Him to those of faith, which is why we must pray to Him to get it.

]]> By: a random John http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85025 a random John Wed, 21 May 2008 16:41:54 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-85025 LDS Anarchist, In my experience faith and charity are two different things. As for Paul, he never explicitly lists charity as a gift of the spirit. He says it is greater than things that are gifts of the spirit, which does not imply that it is one. I guess I'm just not getting something. Perhaps I'm frustrated with the what I see as a categorical difference between the things listed in the lists and charity. Also, the "every good thing comes from God or Christ" logic doesn't appeal to me. I'm of the opinion that we're capable of good things on our own. Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a "gift"? LDS Anarchist,

In my experience faith and charity are two different things. As for Paul, he never explicitly lists charity as a gift of the spirit. He says it is greater than things that are gifts of the spirit, which does not imply that it is one.

I guess I’m just not getting something. Perhaps I’m frustrated with the what I see as a categorical difference between the things listed in the lists and charity. Also, the “every good thing comes from God or Christ” logic doesn’t appeal to me. I’m of the opinion that we’re capable of good things on our own.

Is it possible to develop a measure of charity without it being a “gift”?

]]> By: LDS Anarchist http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85014 LDS Anarchist Wed, 21 May 2008 10:35:23 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-85014 Charity is in the list. The gift of "exceedingly great faith" (Moroni 10: 11) encompasses charity. Moroni explains this when later on he starts talking about the gift of faith and the results of its absence in verses 19 to 25. He explains that if you've got faith, you've got hope and if you've got faith and hope, you've got charity. (See verse 20.) Everything hinges on the gift of faith. As it is impossible to have faith and not have hope, he explains that if you have no hope you are in "despair, and despair cometh because of iniquity" (verse 22.) Likewise, it is impossible to have faith and hope and not have charity. So, the expression "exceedingly great faith" refers to the gift of charity and encompasses all three great principles of the gospel: faith, hope and charity. Paul likewise mentions the gift of faith. His sermon on extolling the value of charity over all other gifts, in which he says, "though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13: 2) doesn't mean that it is possible to have all faith and not have charity. He's just saying a "what if" situation, as in, if it were possible to have all faith and not have charity, faith would be good for nothing. But that is an impossibility. The more faith you have, the more hope you have. The more faith and hope you have, the more charitable you are, or in other words, the more charity you obtain, as it is a gift of God. This is why he even defines charity as possessing the ingredients of faith and hope: "believeth all things, hopeth all things" (see 1 Cor. 13: 7.) This same definition is repeated in Moroni chapter 7. Finally, the Lord also lists the gift of faith: "To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful" (D&C 46: 14.) Charity is in the list. The gift of “exceedingly great faith” (Moroni 10: 11) encompasses charity. Moroni explains this when later on he starts talking about the gift of faith and the results of its absence in verses 19 to 25. He explains that if you’ve got faith, you’ve got hope and if you’ve got faith and hope, you’ve got charity. (See verse 20.) Everything hinges on the gift of faith. As it is impossible to have faith and not have hope, he explains that if you have no hope you are in “despair, and despair cometh because of iniquity” (verse 22.) Likewise, it is impossible to have faith and hope and not have charity. So, the expression “exceedingly great faith” refers to the gift of charity and encompasses all three great principles of the gospel: faith, hope and charity.

Paul likewise mentions the gift of faith. His sermon on extolling the value of charity over all other gifts, in which he says, “though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing” (1 Cor. 13: 2) doesn’t mean that it is possible to have all faith and not have charity. He’s just saying a “what if” situation, as in, if it were possible to have all faith and not have charity, faith would be good for nothing. But that is an impossibility. The more faith you have, the more hope you have. The more faith and hope you have, the more charitable you are, or in other words, the more charity you obtain, as it is a gift of God. This is why he even defines charity as possessing the ingredients of faith and hope: “believeth all things, hopeth all things” (see 1 Cor. 13: 7.) This same definition is repeated in Moroni chapter 7.

Finally, the Lord also lists the gift of faith: “To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful” (D&C 46: 14.)

]]> By: Sunshine http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-84991 Sunshine Wed, 21 May 2008 02:05:40 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-84991 Actually that scripture is referring to a perfect brightness of hope which is different than the pure love of Christ or charity. I think that I agree with BS. If everything is given to us and immediately understood then what would be the purpose of coming to this earth anyway? I have to say that is a pet peeve of mine. The idea that because you simply were born made you entitled to some great knowledge, and that, that knowledge should fall nicely in your lap categorized by subject and color coordinated in a beautiful three ringed binder. What would be the fun in that? Actually that scripture is referring to a perfect brightness of hope which is different than the pure love of Christ or charity.

I think that I agree with BS. If everything is given to us and immediately understood then what would be the purpose of coming to this earth anyway? I have to say that is a pet peeve of mine. The idea that because you simply were born made you entitled to some great knowledge, and that, that knowledge should fall nicely in your lap categorized by subject and color coordinated in a beautiful three ringed binder. What would be the fun in that?

]]> By: Adam E. http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-84920 Adam E. Tue, 20 May 2008 12:31:37 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-84920 For those who did not look up cadams' scripture: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen." If you define a gift of the Spirit as a change God works in our spirits, or a change God works on us via the Holy Ghost, than charity is definitely a gift of the Spirit. The comments on this post that the original lists of gifts were not meant to be exhaustive would also be true (see definition above), but this gift is explicitly described as a gift of the Spirit, just in different locations in the scriptures. For those who did not look up cadams’ scripture:

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.”

If you define a gift of the Spirit as a change God works in our spirits, or a change God works on us via the Holy Ghost, than charity is definitely a gift of the Spirit.

The comments on this post that the original lists of gifts were not meant to be exhaustive would also be true (see definition above), but this gift is explicitly described as a gift of the Spirit, just in different locations in the scriptures.

]]> By: Bookslinger http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/05/19/is-charity-a-gift-of-the-spirit.htm/comment-page-1#comment-84877 Bookslinger Mon, 19 May 2008 23:32:11 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=837#comment-84877 #18 (ARJ): "If it is so obvious why is charity, which is more important than any of the items in the lists in the scriptures I mentioned, absent from those lists?" I think the answer is because the Lord didn't want the scriptures to be totally arranged by topic. If we extrapolate to the idea that every list in the scriptures needs to be exhaustive, then we wouldn't need the Topical Guide or a "Gospel Principles" manual arranged by topic, and we wouldn't need to <i>search</i> the scriptures. I think that having things sprinkled throughout the scriptures hides many things from those who aren't quite diligent enough to seek them. Perhaps it is the Lord's will that the scriptures be a jumble of puzzle-pieces that take a little faith and diligence to put together in order to see the whole picture. I think the book of Isaiah is a good example of that description. #18 (ARJ): “If it is so obvious why is charity, which is more important than any of the items in the lists in the scriptures I mentioned, absent from those lists?”

I think the answer is because the Lord didn’t want the scriptures to be totally arranged by topic. If we extrapolate to the idea that every list in the scriptures needs to be exhaustive, then we wouldn’t need the Topical Guide or a “Gospel Principles” manual arranged by topic, and we wouldn’t need to search the scriptures.

I think that having things sprinkled throughout the scriptures hides many things from those who aren’t quite diligent enough to seek them.

Perhaps it is the Lord’s will that the scriptures be a jumble of puzzle-pieces that take a little faith and diligence to put together in order to see the whole picture. I think the book of Isaiah is a good example of that description.

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