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Amen, beautifully said Dan. |
I’m also ambivalent about the gay marriage issue. I disagree with it on a moral level, but cannot find justification for prohibiting it on a constitutional level. But I’m also ambivalent about a hetero-marriage amendment. I believe such an amendment would be unjust discrimination. We let all sorts of sinners marry, many of our sins being worse than homosexuality. Why single out that sin as a basis for denying marriage? (From a moral standpoint, I understand reasons why homosexual marriage goes against God’s plan; but why pick this sin rather than child-abusers, porn addicts, alcoholics, lyers, cheaters, robbers, etc., as a basis for denying marriage?) Also, once more people warm up to the idea of polygamy (which I believe was the CA court’s actual test for constitutionality, despite their stated reasons, which I haven’t read), it will be legal next. And then incest (between consenting adults). We cringe now, but we’re already on the path to societal acceptance of marriage between any consenting adults. |
One of the problems with the CA ruling was that it wasn’t the “voice of the people” (verse 2) which was represented; it was the opposite. The voice of the people clearly said they did not want this (from a refferendum or vote [can't remember] of a couple of years ago). The problem is 4 unelected judges made this choice, and created this “right” to gay marriage. Adam E said “why pick this sin rather than child-abusers, porn addicts, alcoholics, lyers, cheaters, robbers, etc., as a basis for denying marriage?” Nobody is denied the right to marry; if you are a man and a woman, regardless of your “sin” you may marry. |
Nobody is denied the right to marry; if you are a man and a woman, regardless of your “sin” you may marry. Steven, I used to think that way, but I don’t anymore. It feels like a half-truth. And there’s no constitutional basis for it that I know of. |
I just hope that we as the public can keep our preaching, or whatever form the moral conveyance takes, from taking the form of outrage, tirade, condemnation, ranting, etc. I like that such measures could possibly create a greater separation of church morals from political morals. The line between the two is blurry, tainting both. Hopefully we see a surge in religious primary schools. |
Thanks Dan, well said. For me, I feel similar to Adam on the constitutionality. To ban gay marriage seems as unconstitutional as banning adults from marrying more than one spouse or marrying someone from a different race. Who cares who you marry as long as you are not bothering others. In my mind, I find it ironic that Mormons are so outspoken against gay marriage when we fought tooth and nail in the late 1890’s to protect our right to marry more than one spouse. We should be consistent and not try to have it both ways. If you read some of the arguments Mormons made to justify polygamy in the 1800’s they sound a lot like the arguments made for gay marriage today. |
Steven (3), I am no legal scholar, but my understanding is that the CA Supreme Court’s mandate is not necessarily to implement the will of the people, but to interpret existing law in light of the state constitution. If there is no definition of marriage in the state constitution, then on what grounds to they exclude citizens from the institution of marriage? If they decide that marriage is between one man and one woman, then they are making that decision based upon their own understanding, not based upon existing law as defined in the state constitution. That would be another example of “making law” from the bench. |
Steven, First, the point of having unelected judges is so that the will of the majority can’t infringe on the rights of the minority. For example, even if the majority of people want to say black people can’t marry white people, if that’s unconstitutional (and it clearly is), the judiciary is the branch best able to protect the rights of the people. Beyond that, as I understand it, California Supreme Court judges may face (in some circumstances, at least) referenda by which they can be removed from the bench. (I’m not a California attorney, so I don’t know; it was strongly suggested, however, in an LA Times interview with the chief judge.) If you’ve read the opinion and the California state constitution, you may be able to reasonably comment on the decision made by the court. I admit that I’ve never read California’s constitution, and have only read bits and pieces of the opinion, so I’m not going to offer my own opinion on its soundness. But it is clear that the court did not create law; rather, it struck down a law as violative of the state constitution, which is precisely the role that that court has. If the people of California really are outraged, they can amend the state constitution. Similarly, when the US Supreme Court makes a constitutional decision that the people find truly abhorrent, we can amend the Constitution. So you aren’t left without recourse; it’s a hard row to hoe, but the evil unelected judges can be overturned. |
Give me an unelected judge over an elected one that panders to the people. |
The real question for me is, if the Church decides to actively fight this again, and asks you to get involved in that fight, will you? I think one major difference between last time and this time is that a lot of conservative LDS in California have fled. At least, our ward (and probably bbell’s) is full of them. |
queno, “The real question for me is, if the Church decides to actively fight this again, and asks you to get involved in that fight, will you?” Good question. I don’t know what I would do. If it happens, I’ll tell you. |
steven: Contrary to popular opinion… (Gasp) they’re just as concerned about society as anyone, that’s the reason lots of them took up the profession they did! and….their job is to enforce-implement the WILL OF THE PEOPLE, as written BY PEOPLE in the constitution… your ‘argument’ is baseless, crass, and self - serving. |
Justices of the California Supreme Court are appointed by the governor, but unlike U.S. Supreme Court justices, serve specific terms, and must be confirmed by the voters in order to retain their positions. All seven members of the California court have been confirmed by the voters. Kennard — confirmed 2006 with 74.5% Corrigan — confirmed 2006 with 74.4% Werdegar — confirmed 2002 with 74.1% Moreno — confirmed 2002 with 72.6% Baxter — confirmed 2002 with 71.5% George — confirmed 1998 with 75.5% Chin — confirmed 1998 with 69.3% http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/ca_judges_not_unelected.php |
I believe the system in Washington state…(is or Was) that higher judges have terms; at the ‘end’ of their terms, the Q to voters is to ‘Retain’ or not, before another is posed as an apposing candidate. I like that idea for Judges. the concept Should Be that judges have more of a long-term view of things. |
also: I ‘know’ that criminal convictions can be appealed to the Federal System; I’m not sure about civil matters…. |
Get the state entirely out of the business of marriage (which ought be a religious relation) and all will be well. |
Clark, so what are a Hindu and a Catholic who love each other supposed to do? Does one of them need to convert, even if neither cares a whole lot about religion? |
I’m getting the idea of civil marriage as some innovation that FDR came up with (after social security and before income tax withholding), and if only Barry Goldwater had been elected president, then it wouldn’t be troubling us anymore. |
Clark: it is my ‘considered’ opinion that a civil marriage ought to be an option (for non-religious couples-people). |
I think the real worry in the Church is not whether or not California Saints mobilize, but whether or not a generation of Sonia Johnsons arises within the Church, actively working against it. There was one comment in particular over on a three-letter acrynomed Bloggernacle blog that gave me chills, in its support for the idea that the Church in 50 years would be marginalized as a rogue operation if it continued its present policies. It’s one thing to pray for change in the Church; it’s another thing to take a decidedly activist role against the Church. I wonder if renewed calls for mobilization in CA and elsewhere will be an attempt to gauge commitment. |