You didn’t say exactly what your calling is. If you are the Pres., you should cancel it. It is your calling now and you are not obligated to follow through on someone else’s bad idea.

If you are a counselor, counsel your president. If she doesn’t agree with you, tell her you won’t be there. Depending on your personality type, tell her you won’t be there because of “another commitment” or because “I will not participate in an unwise activity.”

emilye–I should look up some guidlines–apparently our new High Councillor is something of a Trek “expert” but we have enough lawyers on the HC, I would have thought liability, if not common sense, would have played a part in the thought process. Apparently they see no problems (and perhaps that is because the scouts regularly do winter camp-outs).

I wonder what the motivation is behind February? My thought is that the Powers that Be are using a cult tactic which is to “break em’ down and then build em’ back up” to develop testimonies by creating a false spiritual experience. If this the reasoning it is a flawed one. I don’t think that you can control the spirit. You can provide an environment that is conducive to the spirit and that is about it. You have to trust the Holy Ghost will manifest itself and you have to trust the kids that they will be in the right frame of mind to receive it.

Fake experience=fake spirit. Some teenagers can smell a rat. They see right thru the ruse and yell hypocrite. Others are emotional (given their hormones). The emotional kids need to learn the difference between emotion and the still small voice. We are not doing them any favors in their spiritual development by encouraging emotional thinking.

I love the Mormon Pioneers, but I do not think that treks are the way to teach. It wasn’t fun for most the first time and it is not fun for most now. A few observations in my life. A few years ago our Stake did a trek in the middle of a southeastern hot and humid summer. My older son went on it. The kids were dressed in Pioneer clothes and pulled handcarts. At one point on the trek The Powers that Be decided it would be more real if the kids were not given water. My son is a Philmont scout and was a JROTC cadet and competed on his HS’s military team. He knew that this was a dangerous tactic on the part of the leaders. So being the son of his mother he sat down on the path and refused to pull his handcart until he got some water. He got his water. Another part of the trek only the girls were allowed to pull the handcarts uphill. A couple of girls ended up in the hospital.

Consequently I don’t trust my leaders that they will take good care of my children, so #2 son is not going on the trek this summer.

Yes they are, but it is four years after the last one. They want to make sue that everyone has an equal opportunity for torture :)

jeans–I also enquired about indoor accomodations, etc, and have been given the impression that no, they actually want to trek. We are having a meeting next week with YM and Stake presidency rep., so I hope to get a better picture then. Thanks for the tip on the hat.

JA Benson–I don’t think the winter trek idea is malicious or manipulative–I think they decided that the other months were not available and Feb. was. I hope to get a feel for what they actually imagine this trek will be like, but thanks for your points about winter wear, etc. Your stake’s trek sounds deplorable–I can’t imagine the groupthink behind with-holding water (!) although I have heard about the girls puhing alone–is this an aspect of every trek? Why?

I would definitely try to talk them out of it unless, like jeans suggest, it’s just a metaphorical trek. My stake did trek last summer and the kids seemed to have fun, so I’m not totally opposed to the concept (I didn’t go even though I’m a YW leader because I’m out of shape and figured it would kill me, plus I have limited vacation time and decided I’d rather wander around Rome than Wyoming), but safety really needs to be taken into consideration (and dumb ideas like what happened to JA’s son need to be killed quickly before they ever reach the trail). A northern winter just seems like an all around bad idea. I say speak up and speak up quickly, and bluntly tell them why its a Bad Idea. If they are determined to do something in February, then I think something like jeans suggests (some outdoor activities, but primarily indoors) should be introduced to the table.

If you genuinely feel that a particular activity is stupid and even borders on being dangerous, then you have the right to say no. Perhaps at that point saying no is even an obligation.

Years ago, at a point when I was EQP in my ward, I was called at the last minute by a stake representative – asking me to provide refs from our quorum for the stake volleyball tournament. He was giving me about an hours notice to rustle up this help he needed. I was not able to go and didn’t feel good about asking people with such late notice. So I told him no.

It’s interesting sometimes to see how much it freaks people out when you say no. It’s something I do very rarely (in the context of church requests) but sometimes it’s healthy and even the right thing to do.

Since there is anther StevenB I’ve changed to SPB.

ESO – The YW presidency have been called to represent the YW of the stake. I think you are obliged to let your feeling not only be known but also be heard by the stake presiency. If your entire presidency feels strong about this then I think you need to be quite pushy about it.

ESO–thanks for clarifying. I think the YW Pres. needs to look them in the eyes and say “The YW will not be participating because we believe this is dangerous.”

Is there really someone from SLC who comes out to supervise the treks? I really doubt that. Here in SoCal, there’s a couple who runs these as their business on their ranch, and I’ve never heard of anyone from SLC supervising them. I agree with the comment about the treks being cult-like, and I’m a history buff. The ones here in SoCal are not very historically accurate, but have fake hardships, built in. The couple who run the business does the cooking– what’s the point of that, but they do ration the food so the kids are hungry– only 6 Beanie Weenies per kid, and only a few taco chips.

I currently serve in a stake YM’s Presidency.

Based on my Exp the stake YW/YM presidency can essentially say no dice to any activity and it will get dropped.

Is there more to the story? A personality conflict between the SP member overseeing the youth programs and your ST YW President?

How does the stake YW president get over-ruled by a HC member and a ST YM president? That sounds weird to me??? The decison maker of least consequence for stake youth activites are the 2 HC members. I am not even sure why they attend stake youth mtg’s

Here is what you do.

Stake YW president says no dice. If this does not solve it she takes it to the parents of the kids who then are asked to voice their opinions.

How on earth is February even available for such an activity? I’ve never heard of a Youth Conference being done outside of summer months, when the kids don’t have, um, what do you call it? hmmmmmmm

Oh yeah! SCHOOL!

There’s another way to do this, if you continue to be overruled. Allow it to proceed without your support, but let the (angry) parents of the YW know that they are under no obligation to send their daughters. When only 1 or 2 sign up (the real crazies), it will be canceled on its own.

I like the idea of refusing to participate in anything which endangers anyone.

When Bruce and I lived in Hawaii, the scout troup decided to do a hike during a rainstorm. There was a flash flood. The scoutmaster clung the hand of one kid (his family had come to Hawaii on the same flight as ours), but ultimately couldn’t keep a hold. The child died in the flood. I couldn’t even face the scout leader without crying. How would it be to carry that for the rest of your life? The response of many was, “WHY did they do the hike when there was a storm?” But all of that was in retrospect. If someone had spoken up before, that young man would still be alive.

Our stake does a trek in the summer every 4 years. I thought that was bad enough….but winter??! Yup. I wouldn’t be sending my daughter out there.

I don’t understand the fascination with treks. The pioneers HAD to do it. Plenty died. I wasn’t born then for a reason….I don’t think I would have made it…and I’m not interested in pretending my way through it either.

That being said, I’m amazed at how much the kids in our stake loved Trek. Then again, I hear some people don’t peel their bananas before they peel them either. I’ll never understand that either. :)

If the kids are all involved in the pageant that should be youth conference enough. If they aren’t, then do it during the pageant.

arj–we have a problem with summer: our kids go to school through the last week of June, the Hill Camorah Pageant is all-consuming of July, and August is occupied by Girls Camps, Scout Camps, High Adventures, and family vacations. It is really quite ridiculous.

I know this is a peculiarity of where you live (the HC pageant isn’t an issue anywhere else), but I’m sorry — there’s no justification for taking time out of the school year for this. Can’t they do it during Spring Break?

33. It’s called a priesthood purpose, even in auxiliaries.

queuno–another peculiarity of our location: teeny tiny school districts. Our stake could easily cover 60+ school districts, so no uniform spring break, but yeah–when the YW pres. suggested April, she was told Feb. was the time–again, the mud vs. snow and snow won.

Really, though–it seems there is clear consensus here that this is insanity, so I hope that seeps through the powers that be in my stake, too.

The men involved are all former bishops and current high council members (they are in the know). The women are not. I really think they don’t realize how they treat the YW presidency, but it is not as equals. The Stake presidency member involved is very kind but quite passive. I am a little surprised I still have this calling as I have said some things in these meetings that have been evidently shocking; next week should be no exception.

This will be a great learning opportunity for the priesthood leaders involved, that they can’t bully the auxiliary presidencies.

ESO,

Simply have the Stake YM President say NO. No ifs ands or buts. She should then suggest another activity like the Game of Life

That will pretty much end the whole conversation. If not then have her tell them that the Stake YM Presidency will not support or participate in the activity. Then she should tell them to take it up with the SP.

This trek idea is MESSED. UP. I second the “look them in the eye and tell them they’re insane” motion. Foot goes down, line goes in sand, do not collect $200. Just say no. NO.

(sorry) most of these comments speak loud & CLEAR:
bureaucracy gone amok.
That’s the built in danger of being part of most any large organization; in this case it seems to be compounded by a ‘maintain secrecy’ mindset.
IF there are policies against such a trek, who has access to them? Where are they recorded? What’s the purpose in writing them down if the people expected to execute them can’t look them up/refer to them (kinda like members being expected to be governed by the CHI).
/cynicism

(That last comment was written before comment #46)

I’m not sure what the ‘spiritual’ aspect of freezing yr _ _ _ off in the middle of a Northern winter… but I’m pretty sure it’s not mentioned in the scriptures.

BACK TO BASICS, LDS.
you know; Love for God & neighbor, kindness, honesty, Mercy-Compassion, Repentance-Forgiveness; that sort of stuff. Really; you might think it’s boring or repetitious,
but that hasn’t come across where I worship (and, I was LDS/RM/temple married, 40+ yrs).
I know they’re written down….I just read them a few minutes ago..in the Bible.

50. ” you might think it’s boring or repetitious”

That’s not all I think is boring and repetitious.

OK ESO be Levi Savage who tried to stop the Martin Willie Handcart COmpany from taking their journey in the wrong season:

“Levi Savage used his common sense and his knowledge of the country. He declared positively that to his certain knowledge we could not cross the mountains with mixed company of aged people, women, and little children, so late in the season without much suffering, sickness, and death. He therefore advised going into winter quarters without delay.; but he was rebuked by the other elder for want of faith…Savage was accordingly defeated, as the majority were against him.” He then added; “Brethren and sisters, what I have said I know to be true; but, seeing you are to go forward, I will go with you, will help you all I can, will work with you, will rest with you, will suffer with you, and if necessary I will die with you. May God in his mercy bless and preserve us. Amen”

Then tell the Stake what Brigham Young said, “There is not a person, who knows anything about the counsel of the First Presidency concerning the immigration, but what knows that we have recommended it to start in season.—True, we have not expressly, and with a penalty, forbidden the immigration to start late, but hereafter I am going to lay an injunction and place a penalty, to be suffered by any Elder or Elders who will start the immigration across the plains after a given time; and the penalty shall be that they shall be severed from the church, for I will not have such late starts.”

My great grandmother made the original trek as a teenager–in 1856, with a handcart. She did it because it was the only way for her to get where she wanted to go (the Salt Lake Valley). She was a practical woman, raised in Quaker traditions, and no wimp. But I am certain that if she were to witness this modern practice of “trekking” she would shake her head in wonderment. And to do it in the dead of winter? I fail to see how physical torture translates into spiritual growth.

About twelve years ago, the stake where we were living at the time did a trek. The leaders in charge decided that the kids would have a more authentic and enriching experience if they were required to fast for the first day, and, at the end of that day, each youth would be required to pull his/her own handcart up a steep hill without assistance. My husband was in the stake presidency at the time, and our daughter of that age was severely hypoglycemic, so he openly objected to this plan. He was overruled and told that this was the plan, and there would be no exceptions made to it. Needless to say, our daughters did not participate. The whole thing was nothing short of child abuse.

I don’t think that we should sugar-coat life for your children, but neither should we intruduce unnecessary difficulties. Teenagers today deal with many challenges. They need to learn the practical application of gospel principles in the 21st century.

I’ve participated in two treks as an adult leader in Maryland and South Carolina and enjoyed both of them as did most of the youth; however, they were done in June/July timeframe. Trek in Feb in NY=lunacy, as many have already opined.

As far as dealing with the HC and SP, wait until they trot out priesthood authority, standing alone, to smack down a truculent SYWP or SYMP-happens to my wife who serves as a SYWP, and one reason we are considering moving from our current stake.

In our current stake treks are verboten at least until the current SP is released. About 6 years our stake participated in a bi-stake trek and one pioneer child/youth hooked up with another pioneer child/youth and nine months later they welcomed a new pioneer baby into the world. (talk about teenage hormones/urges: having sex after two or three days trekking in high heat and humidity and no showers and little privacy.) For some reason the SP took it very personally and there will be no more treks.

Guy, how long has it been since you were in Church, let alone a youth calling? I, personally, do not relate one iota to what you’re talking about. Never have.

This may actually be the first thread where Guy’s rantings actually seem relevant.

I dunno, my thought is to quit whining, suck it up, and do it. You never posted how long the trip was. Is it a day hike? How far. Whether you’ll be camping the entire time or spending time in a hotel.

If you go into it with an open mind rather than a “I won’t wear a bonnet” attitude that refuses to submit for the sake of personal pride, then you’ll probably have a good time. Even if you’re cold and wet and miserable during some parts.

But then again I enjoy brutally punishing myself with awesome outdoor adventures.

#68
I don’t think things changed (or should have changed) with a letter. Inarguably, sometimes people need a little reminder. If we always learned the first time, we’d only need the word “repent” once in the scriptures. I’m glad that they sent out a letter that had old, normal information even if it is, to quote Guy (#50), “boring or repetitious”, because as Guy has argued repeatedly on other posts, sometimes things that seem uninteresting or obvious get overlooked. I would submit that all belief systems equally share this attribute of needing reminders, not just LDS.

I’m not sure that I understand your point with this post. Help me clarify. It seems you’re having a problem with a letter being sent, as if it implies that people would only be safe if they are told to do so. If that is the point of your statement, the argument makes too many assumptions and has no inherent logic to reach that conclusion. It feels like you just wanted to vent frustration. Is there something that I am missing?

Guy:
To begin, your premise that you state in #70 doesn’t logically help the argument made in #68 (my original question). Even operating under your premise, the argument is only attempting to confirm your assumption. Your next point in #72 not directly related to either of your previous statements. It seems to be making the claim that “the (obsessive) focus on outward appearance” is directly related to your definition of micromanaging (a definition that appears somewhat unorthodox), and that the church’s correlation program is linked to that obsessive focus. What is not clear is how you see that the church is somehow responsible for things that have hurt or offended you. Many of those things that bother you, being judgmental, disregard for others’ opinions, etc, are valid irritants which should bother everyone, but to make the claim that the church itself, and not individuals therein, is solely responsible is an unsubstantiated claim.
You seem to argue that correlation, as you call it, is perpetuating the problems you see. I would need to see a very strong argument to agree to that, for there are many factors within environments and systems that can accentuate some of those irritants. No doubt, a system like correlation could accentuate, given that people participating were already predisposed. (Although I’m not sure that what you think is correlation is what was intended with correlation, but rather problems you have encountered with its implementation: two very different things.)
So to clarify what you’ve stated in many previous posts: how are these problems with people being judgmental or disregarding opinions be somehow the fault of the entire LDS church? Inarguably, they are not taught in the doctrine. I would readily agree that there are some members of the church in positions that make stupid mistakes, however it seems like your arguments are based on your own angst over something, and not on logic. Do you have anything to clarify your thoughts to help me make the logical jumps?

Guy,

You can’t be serious. You’re claiming that there’s any substance to your posts? If I were to simply stack them end to end and show them to any sane person they’d have some interesting adjectives to describe what they’ve read, but “substantive” wouldn’t be one of them.

# 78,

LOL- I’ve been thinking the same thing for 3 days now.

# 79,

Hypocrisy.

arj, Guy’s problem is that he was a stupid Mormon, and now that he’s an ever-so-slightly less stupid ex-Mormon, he supposes that all remaining Mormons are as stupid as he was. If Guy were actually intelligent, he’d come up with something original to say instead of repeating the same, tired old canards about Mormonism. If I had a penny for every time I’ve heard each of the age-old, anti-Mormon admonishments contained in his comments, I could buy a six-pack of Diet Coke.

I think I’m going to write a post asking why so many disaffected Mormons presume that the believing Mormon doesn’t already understand the stuff that the disaffected Mormons were stupid enough to discovery only recently. The answer is probably something like this: The believing Mormon puts the information to good use to make herself a better Mormon. The disaffected Mormons use it to continue to try to judgmentally brow-beat other Mormons, which is what made Mormonism worthwhile for them in the first place.

That said, over the past week, the only difference between Guy’s comments and the ones that get caught in our spam filter has been that Guy doesn’t talk about viagra, gambling, or porn.

Just to share a couple of thoughts here,
DKL #82 is that “diet” Coke before or after present Gas prices…. Because it would make that statement a lot more powerful if you are talking post…

I just received an e-mail from a friend I like to call LDS-Gems this morning and I thought it was quite fitting here.

It goes a little something like this:

“One hundred and fifty years ago our people were leaving Nauvoo and threading their way across the prairies of Iowa. None of us, I am confident, can appreciate the measure of sacrifice which they made in leaving their comfortable homes to brave the tempests of the wilderness on a journey that would not end until they reached this valley of the Great Salt Lake. Their suffering was immeasurable. They died by the hundreds for this cause of which each one of us is a part.

“I was in Palmyra
this past summer and in Nauvoo, and in Council Bluffs, Iowa, which they had called Kanesville out of respect and love for a loyal friend. I stood where the Grand Encampment assembled when they reached the Missouri River. I have been over the trail from the Missouri to this valley a number of times. For me it is always a sacred experience. I am so deeply grateful for our inheritance. . . .

“Ours is the blessing to live in a better season. The terrible persecutions of the past are behind us. Today we are looked upon with respect by people across the world. We must always be worthy of that respect. We must earn it, or we will not have it.”

Topic: pioneers

(Gordon B. Hinckley, “Listen by the Power of the Spirit,” Ensign, Nov. 1996, 4)

I think that is all the leaders are trying to do is “earn” the respect from all the people who say this is crazy, and yes I must say it is crazy in a Kim Jong il and his sun glasses sort of way…

You know what Guy.

I’m going to back down here and offer an apology.

It doesn’t matter what I think of your opinions or your posts. I have no right to treat you one way over at other blogs, and then treat you differently here at Mormon Mentality. And yet I feel like that is exactly what I have been doing.

It just seems really two-faced that I’m doing that. And it’s not my job to play enforcer here anyway. So sorry about that, and I’ll let others carry on as they see fit.

(I don’t know if I picked all the best post numbers, but I hope my point was still clear.)

Guy: …the Basics should never go out of focus or style… Kindness, Honesty, Mercy-Compassion, Repentance-Forgiveness.

The problem is that these are buzzwords, not principles. Saying “People should be kind” is like saying, “The working man deserves a fair shake.” It’s exactly the sort of meaningless proposition that everyone can agree on until some attempt is made to flesh it out in concrete terms. It sounds good to everybody because it’s meaningless.

Guy, the Mennonites sound pretty cool. I’m glad you have such a positive experience with them.

We (of course) will have our differences with the Mennonites.

I feel you over-generalize about the negatives of Mormonism.

Guy, your using the wrong gauge for Mormon priorities. In fact, you seem to basically misunderstand the way that most blogs work. You see, a good deal of the content here is socially driven — like a short conversation at a party — and therefore basically frivolous. Over at Times and Seasons, some of their most commented posts had to do with questions like, “What is your favorite Holloween candy?” One of my favorite was Nate’s light-hearted post about how after temple marriage he missed seeing his wife’s clavicles. These aren’t deadly serious topics, and it’s frankly bizarre to hear you recounting these topics as though this was any reflection upon the day-to-day priorities of Mormons. Think about it: Blogging is a good alternative to TV. That’s about the level that it is typically functioning on.

When I say that you’re stupid, I’m not using hyperbole. That’s really how you come across.

It’s been demonstrated that you don’t know much about Jesus, that you don’t know much about blogging, that you don’t know much about ethics, that you don’t know much about the New Testament, that you don’t know much about Mormons or Mormonism, that you don’t even know much about anti-Mormonism. At this point, it’s not obvious that you know much about anything.

You’ve been given ample opportunity to say something reasonably intelligent, and you haven’t succeeded in availing yourself of a single one of them. What else are we to conclude except that you’re stupid?

back to the topic at hand–
re the earlier comment about a new pioneer baby, word on the streets in utah is that several stakes have banned trek due to a number of new little pioneer surprises…
and seems like a winter trek might encourage cuddling under the covers for warmth. you could raise that concern!

Guy, missionaries knock on the door and if they are welcomed in, then they share their message. They are generally friendly to the people they are teaching and don’t light into them every chance they get.

You aren’t treating us nearly as well and you’re monopolizing airtime that could be constructively used to deal with other topics.

Notice that the post is about a planned pioneer trek in upstate New York. But now the comments have devolved into being all about YOU.

It would be a great blessing to us all if you would go find someplace else to vent your dissatisfaction. Maybe you should start your own blog instead of being such a plague on others.

I object to the attempt to the attempt to gain spiritual enlightenment through self-punishment,

Whatever gst, we all know you’re big into auto-flagellation.

GST #91 “These exercises are foreign to our doctrine, mock the real sacrifices of our forebears, and make us look like fools.”
Amen Brother

We are from South Dakota where 3 of my 5 sons happily winter camped with the Scouts in well below 0 temps. I once ran a 50K in a winter race called “Ice Cubes For Brains.” Our South Dakota Stake gave up the day of Youth Conference that was to have been at Six Flags to sandbag Nauvoo when it flooded in 93… I think 93? We do hard things in our family. That said, we live in Ohio now. Our Stake has done the Trek twice since we’ve been here. The know-it-all in charge (who is from some ranch out west and not officially affiliated with the Church) was a novice trekker in the humidity of the midwest and ended up with heatstroke. My take on the trek is the same as JABenson’s Fake experience=fake spirit. Mr. Large-and-in-charge wanted to withhold water at first, but our HC who attended is an MD and he raised the roof beforehand. The youth all had all the ice water they wanted. They did several stupid, manipulative things like making the girls work to exhaustion while the boys watched so they would understand “missions”. They made the most squeamish person in each “family” kill a chicken. They dressed rice bags as dolls, made them carry them, and then told them they were “dead” and made them eat the rice. The kids divided into the crybabies and those who told ghoulish dead baby jokes. Since I really truly have had a dead baby both the grieving over a ricebag and the joking upset me. These are not teaching moments. It’s a dumb farce. The second time. four years later, the Stake used a different handcart guy who was not quite so frenzied about forcing difficulties of the youth.
Every spring for years as a Seminary teacher I marched the kids around the Stake Center for 20 minutes while I read J Reuben Clark’s “To Them of the Last Wagon”. Then we had hot chocolate and dutch oven biscuits. It’s a reasonable amount of torture, even for those who usually slept. I do it was early enough in April they all have coats, and I pick a nicer day. After the first year I did arrange for the moms of the fashionable shoe crowd to provide good walking shoes but no one else ever whined. They all remember the best pioneer conference talk ever. Several of them do not remember the trek fondly.
ESO, speak up. They have to listen. Make your understanding crystal clear to them.
Good luck.

I completely agree with gst’s position (at least before we got to the Hill Cumorah pageant comment since I’ve never seen it).

You might mention to the other leaders that there may be a need for some sort of release form to ensure the ward/stake isn’t held responsible for injuries/deaths/missing toes, etc. This might alert parents well in advance and the entire activity could be cancelled based on lack of support.

I don’t know… This is another one of those tough predicaments to be in. Just when you think you’re working with intelligent, sane people, you wake up to find monkeys in their stead!

And what ever happened to torturing teenagers with service projects? At least if they don’t learn anything, someone else gets something good out of the experience!

On an upbeat note for Treks, I have heard of one be wildly successful (by both leader and youth). It wasn’t punishment or unfair. It was a little difficult. But what made it wildly successful is they had a number of actors participate in legitimate events in church history (greatly compressed). The first day they were at Nauvoo (and maybe Carthage), and experienced the reason for leaving. Then they had some historical figures help them throughout. I understand that it was a success because it focused on learning about events and people in church history and the great faith it took them to cross the plains. The leaders spent a lot of time researching pioneer history. Each child was given the name of someone who crossed the plains (or died trying) with a brief history about them and their struggles. They focused on the spiritual and not the physical.
Now, this doesn’t mean that the idea of going in Feb is good. Just that not all treks are bad. (The only one that I participated in wasn’t exactly spectacular.)

JAB:
I think…if I had posted what you did (#101), the board would do ‘unspeakable’ things to me.
Are you being sarcastic or ?
sorry I’m not familiar with you attitude, background, or even your other posts.

the LDS experience (to me, anyway) is one-dimensional;
that’s all Im going to say just now…

#102 GUY NOIR sweetie, no one has done unspeakable things to you. You have not even been banned, but then again I think that DKL does not believe in banning. DKL is quite the defender of the first amendment.
I have no idea why you think that I have crossed the line. #103 GAR Thank you what a lovely response. GUY, If you click on my name you will find a post that I wrote for Bycommonconsent.com. I also wrote a post for FMH see: http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1323 .
In real life I am a regular active LDS middle-aged suburban housewife with five kids and one tired overworked husband residing in the southern US. In person I am extremely sarcastic, but I resist the urge on the blogs as I do not wish to be taken the wrong way. I am sorry you that your LDS experience was one-dimensional. I suggest that you get out a little more. I hope that you find peace and joy in your life.

Thanks, ESO!

I am a recent release from our ward’s Primary presidency and faced some similar problems. My problems, however, were mostly with the President as opposed to a united presidency working against an activity imposed by the stake. To me, the “sustain your leaders” mantra occasionally feels like we must follow any/every leader regardless of common sense or the good of the program. I often heard “just let her learn what she needs to learn” from our Bishopric Advisor which was tiring. But I’ve been “calling-free” for six months so I’m beginning to get some perspective. :)

Any luck on getting folks to change their minds? I do think camping in the snow is possible (I did it myself as a college student) but preparations MUST be made to ensure the youth are safe. Without those precaustions (and possibly even with) I think I would have to stand my ground and not acquiesce when the safety of the youth is at stake.