Margaret – I would like to see your husband’s blog, but I can’t figure out how to find the link. Is there a URL for it?

ARJ- At least you got the sign back, right? Has your house been egged yet?

arJ,
You’re making we mish I lived in Utah. It would be so much fun to irritate the hell out of people.

Careful what you wish for, Ronan, it might come true! (Pssst-I hear BYU’s religion department is hiring)

Left Field–love the note!

arj–mine was taken down, too…my neighborhood is full of Hilary supporters.

During the last presidential year, I was living in Nauvoo. I had a John Kerry sign on the inside of the den/study window of my home. It lasted until we had several of our ward’s young men over briefly to help move a rather stubborn upright piano into the house and upstairs (ugh!). That same night, some unidentified person actually pried my window open and removed the John Kerry sign. It’s called residential burglary under most states’ criminal codes.

In my experience, Democrats just can’t keep presidential election signs on their lawns. Republicans, for some strange reason, don’t seem to get their signs stolen or vandalized on a regular basis. One could almost conclude that a different value system prevails between the supporters of different parties.

BBell,
Care to point me to such a “crime study” that includes white-collar crime, based on the residential precincts of the criminals, lest we miss wealthy republicans who just don’t happen to commit residential burglaries to gather their illicit gains?

Once you do that, maybe you can point me to “crime studies” that demonstrate the monetary losses generated by white-collar crime, as opposed to the kind of “street crime” you allude to.

So, the point of this post was what? That Obama’s opponents are all corrupt thieves, while the pro-Obama camp represents the last bastion of American morality?

By the way, Margaret, are you the same Margaret Young who was recently quoted in Utah Spirit Magazine as calling Glenn Beck an “idiot”?

While living on an island in the Puget Sound, I noticed that all of the Bush/Cheney signs were posted 10′ up on the telephone polls. I suspect that the sign-placers wanted to make it a little more difficult to remove them.

On the same island, the large Bush/Cheney banner by the main road was vandalized with spray paint. The clever sign owner painted “tolerance” over the graffiti.

I believe that this behavior is not unique to either party.

I can’t remember seeing any McCain signs, but am always surprised at the number of Ron Paul signs around.

#14:
By the way, Margaret, are you the same Margaret Young who was recently quoted in Utah Spirit Magazine as calling Glenn Beck an “idiot”?

Wow…I hope it is our same Margaret Young, since that will give me one more reason to respect her!!

I let anyone from any party put signs up in my yard. It is good fun to see both liberals and conservatives right next to each other. I do live in a very Democratic state so we have more of the Republican signs stolen.

#17 That survey could be showing that Democrats whine a lot more about stolen signs rather then actually having more stolen.

I do like putting the liberal signs up more because I bought my father-in-law’s house and he was a staunch Republican and so it really irks him. Something about it reflecting bad upon him.

Speaking of Glenn Beck, I am sad to report that he is appearing tomorrow night at the Manhattan stake center on the East Side, as a “distinguished” member, and that he “will introduce our beliefs to non-members. Members of the church are encouraged to invite their non-member friends to learn about the church…”

Perhaps not the role model I would have chosen.

#23:
Nick, your notion that sign stealing is somehow uniquely Republican is just ridiculous.

So is anyone’s notion that the comment was made as a serious, factual assertion, DKL. Nobody seems to have managed to read the “almost” in that statement. Instead, they’re too busy jumping to take the most offense possible.

I think stealing signs is stupid. My car got keyed in Chicago when it had a Bush Cheny sticker on it in 00. There is an intersting article in slate back in 04 where a guy goes around wearing Bush and Kerry gear in various areas to test reactions. He got the worse reaction from liberal areas when he was wearing a Bush outfit.

As I have mentioned before, I have a close friend who has been on the national board of the ACLU and another who has been on the national board of the John Birch Society. They are both wonderful human beings and have wonderful families. I admire and respect them, although I do not agree fully with either one on political issues.

Sounds like a GREAT table to sit at for lunch, though! :-)

DKL,

That’s because Republicans are likely to have guns and people aren’t dumb enough to mess with their signs!

Of course, if all Democrats are felons, you’d think that would scare people away from Dem signs…

Dan, I have no idea, but I don’t think so.

DavidH, my role model comment was not to reference a recovery from alcoholism, which I was not aware of, but of his public persona, which is dependent on hate and know-nothingism.

Glenn Beck’s recovery from alcoholism is worthy to listen to, but the man undermines that story by continuously being so hateful towards those who disagree with his politics. Does he play up the fear and hate because that’s what sells among hardcore conservatives, or does he really believe all that crap?

Dan (33),
No he doesn’t. But as much as I despise his political posturing (and I can’t imagine the genius who thought a right-wing talk show host was a good introduction to Mormonism for New Yorkers, although, as I understand it, it is likely the mission president around here, rather than the stake), he is, ultimately, my brother in the Gospel. I can wish that his professional baggage didn’t accompany him (although, frankly, some may wish we didn’t have attorneys in the Church), but I have to say, his location is not a good reason not to want to move into a ward. (The real reason not to move to the Manhattan Second Ward is that the Upper West Side is better. The real reason to move to the Manhattan Second Ward is that housing is more affordable over there than it is here. But ultimately, the real reason to live on one or the other side of Manhattan is because that’s your best commute to work. Because commuting from the UWS to anywhere on the East Side is tough, and vice versa.)

Without further comment, as a possible rebuttal I will simply post a link to this article that came out last week, titled “Don’t listen to the liberals – Right-wingers really are nicer people, latest research shows” http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1026442/Dont-listen-liberals–Right-wingers-really-nicer-people-latest-research-shows.html

#25: Get over yourself. Since you allegedly possess the uncanny ability to donate money in an unknown thief’s name, someone as clairvoyant as yourself ought never to be caught unawares when sign-stealers come prowling.

For the record, I have never stolen a campaign sign. However, I will be the first to admit that I do enjoy the whining and handwringing that ensues when people are naïve enough to put them in accessible places (like a front lawn), expect them to be left there, and then revel in their sorry, misunderstood place in the community when they find it stolen. This is what I find so entertaining, sign thievery is just a catalyst. Leaving notes for thieves only takes this to unprecedented levels of hilarity. I am sure that if you were to do an unscientific study, signs with notes such as yours would be stolen with more frequency than those left to fend for themselves.

That being said, even I must draw the line at vandalism… really classless.

Anyway, I am sorry that your life is such a grey, mirthless place. Perhaps passing Obama supporters feel a need to rescue their symbol of hope from the surrounding gloom.

ARJ has the right attitude. Put it out there with no expectations and laugh when you find it missing. I really don’t see why this is such a touchy subject for so many people.

I would tend to agree that any right wing or left wing pundit would not be a good “first face of Mormonism”

That said I do not find Glenn Beck that hateful. He is certainly about the same as Keith Olberman as far as rhetoric is concerned.

The difference is GB’s political views are more in touch with the Church members then Olbermans based on exit polls and studies done in the BYU political science department.

I also think its easier to slur somebody as hateful then to engage on issues

Another is Thomas Sowell, although he is a little too contemptuous and self-satisfied for my taste these days. Krauthammer used to be another, until he went loony a few years ago and the vitriol began to pour out. Buckley was another good example. But I’m taking more than my share from a limited supply.

ctlewis:

Perhaps (unlike DSO and Devyn) you overestimate the seriousness of my contemplated note. I don’t really care that much if the sign gets stolen again, but beyond the hilarity of the note, it would be nice if the thief realized that every sign that gets stolen is just more money for the campaign. And not knowing the actual name of the thief is hardly an impediment to donating $10 if I so choose.

Regarding the stealing of signs, I guess we’ll just have to disagree. I find the stealing of 20 or so eight-dollar signs as a high school prank just about as moral and mirthful as shoplifting $160 dollars worth of merchandise at Wal-Mart. They put the stuff on the shelves where it’s accessible to everyone; they have to expect that some of it is going to walk away. How can they be so humorless as to call the cops when they find it walking out the door? Hilarious stuff.

You, of course are free to find all the mirth you wish in stolen property. For myself, I find quite enough mirth in the thought of thieves unwittingly funding the candidate they don’t support, and in commenters who somehow read “paranoia,” “outrage,” “whining,” and “handwringing” in my comment.

Ok, I did say that the theft was annoying. “Annoying” is how I usually express whining paranoid handwringing outrage. There’s a lot to be said for understatement.

Jim,

#41,

Also, out of curiosity, I would ask Dan, Bill, and Nick to each name one conservative (ie pro-free market, pro-limited government, anti-universal health care, anti-illegal immigration, anti gay-marriage, and anti-affirmative action) columnist, pundit, or talk show host whom you would not categorize as “hateful” or “divisive”? Pardon me for saying so, but I can’t help wondering whether it’s the means of expressing an opinion that makes one “hateful”, or the opinion itself.

Sure, there are a number of them. George Will is respectable. David Brooks is respectable. I don’t agree with them, but they are respectable. William Safire was respectable (back when he was on NY Times—I haven’t kept up with him since he left). It is the means of expressing an opinion that makes one hateful, and not the opinion itself (though of course that’s not true in all cases, as there are plenty of cases where the opinion itself is hateful).

I’ve read and enjoyed George Will, Buckley and Tony Blankley. I wouldn’t describe any of them as hateful. Most of them are more concerned about putting out thoughtful articles in magazines and newspapers. The hateful ones are usually going for ratings on cable news networks or the radio.

JimD (#43): Hmm, you’re right. I’d never thought of it that way. The fact that I find people’s reactions to their missing signs somewhat on the humorous side means that private property means absolutely nothing to me whatsoever. Thanks for clearing that up. (Honestly, you’re reading way too much into things here.)

Left Field (#48):

You seem to be pretty good at overestimating the seriousness of things as well. ARJ started this thread in the interest of “banter.” That’s the spirit in which I’ve written pretty much everything I’ve posted (ah, the eternal loophole of the internet). You’ll be glad to know that I find the fact that stealing the sign of a politician you oppose might lead to more donations for that particular party or individual pretty funny. Feel free to donate as much money as you like to anyone you choose in my name.

However, your Wal-Mart analogy doesn’t work for me; all crime is not created equal. Don’t be so black-and-white, so narrow-minded, if you will. Perhaps if Wal-Mart decided to store all of their merchandise in an unprotected parking lot in the middle of a crime-ridden area of town at night, we would have a situation closer to what we’re talking about here. If everything were stolen, I admit, I would probably think that was funny. A lot of people would. Why? Not because they find stealing itself moral or humorous, but because they can’t believe that Wal-Mart didn’t see that one coming. Nevertheless, it doesn’t mean that they all encourage and harbor fugitives from justice, and most would probably still turn in the culprits if they found out who had done it (at least I would).

So, if you really want to force me to be serious, I never said stealing signs was moral or advisable. I’ve never done it myself and I wouldn’t encourage others to do it. I concede that the high school incident that I related was pretty stupid in a lot of ways, which I am sure I don’t have to enumerate. (I know the teacher in question would agree with me now.) However, this was probably 15+ years ago and all of the signs were for local politicians in small-town, local races. At that time, in that particular town, nobody paid politicians to put up their signs, it was usually done as a favor. Monetary damages to anyone were negligible (eight dollars could probably have bought you ten signs), especially when you consider that they were all put up again later. So, taking all of this into account, and add to that the fact that I knew all of the culprits and victims involved, I still have to suppress a chuckle when I think about it.

At any rate, if I still find a little humor in some occasional sign-stealing, so be it. I blame the unwholesome circumstances of my childhood and take no personal responsibility. And before you even ask, would I turn in said teacher and her juvenile accomplices? Never. I’m just open-minded like that, I guess.

I never ascribed “paranoia”, “outrage”, “whining”, or “handwringing” to you specifically, but I am glad to see that you’ve discovered a way to express all of that so efficiently. That leaves me a lot of latitude for finding humor and/or morally objectionable content in pretty much everything you write. Keep it up.

Stop clinging bitterly to your first amendment rights, then!

Oh, sure. But I side with ctlewis on this one.

I think all this talk of being hateful is absolutely stupid.

First of all, just because someone insults people, it doesn’t mean that they’re hateful. Jesus insulted people, and he is the fountain of love.

Second, there’s a difference between (a) calling somebody stupid in order to avoid answering her argument and (b) arguing that somebody is stupid based on the low quality of her argument.

In the case of someone calling names, we have an exchange that looks like this, and demonstrates the ad hominem fallacy:

person 1: I believe x
person 2: you’re stupid

In the case of arguing that someone is stupid, we have an exchange like this:

person 1: I believe x
person 2: You’re an idiot for believing x because of reasons a, b, and c

In this last case, we have an implicit argument against x and an explicit argument that person 1 is stupid. There’s no ad hominem fallacy. Nor is it especially hateful to identify that someone is stupid. There are, alas, stupid people. It may sometimes be rude to identify them, but it’s not hateful. Hateful is saying, “You’re a filthy [insert ethnic slur here].” Saying, “You’re a filthy lawyer” or “You’re stupid for the following reasons” doesn’t even come close, no matter how deeply it injures someone’s exquisite sensibilities.

It’s important to note that not all conversations should be (or can be) civil. Let me hereby say that everyone here who has complained of hateful speech in this thread wouldn’t know hateful if it chewed their nuts off. Moreover, the notion that it’s hateful to call names in political arguments deserves to be treated in an uncivil manner (viz., with derision and contempt).

Mein Kempf is hateful. The Communist Manifesto is hateful. Denying the Holocaust is hateful. Advancing the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a legitimate document is hateful. Declaring by fiat that your branch of government has jurisdiction over enemy combatants who are not even on American soil is hateful. Calling someone stupid is, at worst, bad playground manners.

ctlewis,

How can I cling to it when you steal my sign while I’m asleep??? Do you also want to deprive me of my beauty sleep? Should I spend my nights in my front yard, shovel in hand, to defend my rights?

#31:
Your statement seems to make a factual assertion. There’s no “almost” in it:

Really, DKL? Did you really bother to read my #10? I said, “One could almost conclude that a different value system prevails between the supporters of different parties.” How can you not see the “almost” in that sentence?

Nick, I’m referring to the normative import of your assertions, not the pretended conclusion you draw from them. The fact that your explicit conclusion falls short of the implications of its preceding sentences doesn’t concern me. But then again, I’m really just pulling your chain.

Since I announced it here in the first place, I should note that the Beck fireside is off for tonight, due to illness — will be rescheduled.

Glenn Beck, a thinker? Really?

You’ve never watched/listened to Glenn Beck, have you Dan.

That’s his jingle- “Now I’m not an expert on ANWAR, but I am a thinker. And I say…”

You’re not catching on, Dan.

Which of the two methods of reasoning outlined in post 60 is on display in post 75?

Glenn Beck’s political beliefs aren’t that big of a deal to me. It’s just that he’s a trollish idiot. Seriously, close your eyes and see if you could take that in a priesthood meeting. No, give me the guy reading the lesson word for word.

Last month I purchased a sign to place at my home in Ivins and another sign to place at my rental home in St. George. Both signs have been stolen from my private residences within the last two weeks.

My question is for who stole my signs is why did you steal my Obama signs?

Did you steal my signs because Obama would not accept $1,069,854 from the big oil companies like John McCain did?

Did you steal my signs because the Tax Policy Center determined that 80% of tax payers would get more from Obama’s tax cut plan compared to McCain’s plan?

Did you steal my signs because Obama co-sponsored the Secure Orderly Immigration Act that passed 62-36 that makes undocumented persons who have been here 5+ years to be allowed to stay and apply for citizenship, if they pay back taxes, learn English and have no criminal record? Oh wait! That can’t be it – I just remembered that John McCain co-sponsored this bill with Obama.

Did you steal my signs because Obama was very outspoken after Hurricane Katrina, leading the charge among lawmakers demanding answers about the government’s failure to protect New Orlens while John McCain was in Arizona celebrating his birthday with President Bush?

Did you steal my signs because Obama didn’t get the endorsement from Pastor Ron Parsley who is McCain’s spiritual guide and endorsed McCain while he preaches that America was founded to see Islam destroyed?

Did you steal my signs because Obama isn’t alright being in Iraq for 100 more years like Senator McCain is perfectly fine with?

Did you steal my signs because since entering the U.S. Senate, Senator Obama has written 890 bills and co-sponsored another 1096?

Did you steal my signs because the signs said “Change that Utah can believe in” and you are happy with the weak economy, high gas prices and the lousy housing market?

Gee, these are all good things about Barack Obama. I can’t figure it out. Why did you steal my signs

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