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| Friday, March 12, 2010 |
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I remember thinking the same thing when President Hinckley said that he and his wife had never exchanged a harsh word in all their years of marriage. That’s a nice image, but I doubt it. My wife and I barely got through a week of marriage without harsh words being exchanged. That’s OK- it was part of the bargain. Regrets and conflict help me acknowledge my humanity and my imperfect nature. |
Occasionally, we hear something like, “Why, we have been married for fifty years, and we have never had a difference of opinion.” If that is literally the case, then one of the partners is overly dominated by the other or, as someone said, is a stranger to the truth. Any intelligent couple will have differences of opinion. Our challenge is to be sure that we know how to resolve them. That is part of the process of making a good marriage better. Joe. J. Christensen, General Conference, April 1995 |
AHLDuke, I’m not sure that’s an unreasonable image. Me and my wife have had plenty of disagreements over the years. We’ve had moments where we haven’t particularly liked each other. Both of us at times have said thoughtless and unkind things. But I don’t recall a time when either of us have ever shouted at each other or said anything to intentionally hurt the other. I would say we haven’t exchanged harsh words. Maybe it depends on how you define harsh. But certainly I regret many things that I have done and said. I would think it quite proud or arrogant to imagine you could live with no regrets. |
Liars? Many wouldn’t recognize that label as accurate. How about “self-deceived”? |
I can safely say that my spouse and I have not fought or exchanged harsh words. We both have strong personalities, but we approach our discussions, whether they be on Gospel nuances, political environment, societal constructs, or housework, in a spirit of open-mindedness, assuming the best first, and civil discourse. This isn’t to say that we haven’t disagreed, but we’ve never fought. In fact, when we disagree, we have some of the most engaging and enlightening conversations: we explore the questions together. I love it. As a caveat, we are currently childless. I am told that when children enter the scene, all this will change. The pleasant scene may brew a tornado or a swarm of locusts. |
AHL Duke – Thanks for the comment – I particularly like your last sentence “Regrets and conflict help me acknowledge my humanity and my imperfect nature.” I should print it and put it up on my wall. Thanks MarkIV – kind of contrary to GBHs comment though… Gomez – I think harsh words is where the discrepancy lies. My wife and I have had many disagreements and some would say we have exchanged harsh words, others would not, but nonetheless we don’t intentionally hurt one another. I agree that it would be arrogant to say we have no regrets, although I have heard this before (usually in a testimony setting) |
My father said that he and my mother never fought in the 25 years they were married. Plenty of disagreements, sometimes strong ones, but no fighting. I suppose there could have been some I didn’t see, but as far as I could tell, that was accurate. I fought with both of them plenty as a teenager, but I never in my life saw or heard them fight with each other. |
I would say that my 3 brothers and I have pretty strong marriages. All 4 of us have conflicts and fights with our spouses on various topics. My parents occassionally fight as do my in-laws and all of my friends occassionally have fights. I have no experience with marriages were there is no conflict at all. One big topic of contention is child rearing strategies and tactics. |
What do you mean by “regrets?” Regrets that you behaved in a way that you wish you hadn’t? Or regrets about marrying that particular person? |
I think I read in President Hinckley’s biography a story about how Sister Hinckley got exasperated once with President Hinckley’s constant re-modeling. Something was going on, I can’t remember, but, as I recall the story, she put her hands on her hips and looked at him and said, “We are NOT re-doing the kitchen this week and that’s final!” And he grinned and it was final. I agree with gomez. People can disagree and be angry without being harsh. Attacking, name-calling, shouting at the top of one’s lungs, all those things have led to my current marital state, which is separated. Of course everyone disagrees, I agree with the statement by Brother Christensen, to a point. But I also know mild people who simply don’t care enough to disagree. They’re not being intimidated, they’re content and not vested in their own way. Bill and I have slowly and carefully negotiated our reconciliation and it’s not complete yet. However, we have come to recognize that the issues aren’t half as important as the way in which they’re revealed and resolved. Daniel, knowing you, be it over the internet only I also believe that much of this is learned behavior. My parents’ fights cannot be adequately described using the written word. I’m 56 now and starting to understand on a soul-level that this is wrong. Starting. Bill’s parents never fought because his mother completely ran the show (that domination Joe Christensen speaks of) and he never learned to disagree civilly. These are extremes, of course, but I would have to go back and agree with all the prophets and say it’s better to be kind to each other. The damage done to my psyche is incalcuable, hell did I spell that right?—-people can destroy each other. Good topic, Daniel. I don’t think people are liars, I think they’re talking about “disagreeing” vs. “fighting.” Also, I’m glad you brought up regrets. Every time I hear that song by Frank Sinatra “Regrets…I’ve had a few, but then again, too few to mention…” I think, “what a putz.” People without regrets are people who’ve lived selfish lives. IMHO |
, I suspect you have disagreed and been angry with each other without destroying each other. There’s a difference.I have never given Mrs. Mansfield a concussion, nor has she ever given me one. We fit into the pencil-pushing population that thinks of fighting as a verbal activity. |
Greenfrog – fair point, I would say that the liar label is appropriate for some and self-deceived for others. M – thanks – I guess my view of a disagreement is did I or my spouse get upset? if, yes, then it was a disagreement. Interesting comment about child rearing – so far that has not been a big issue, of course babies are easy, I am sure once they are teens it will be a different story. Katie P – how do you define fighting? I would think a strong disagreement is a fight. If you define a fight as a physical altercation, then that is another thing altogether. Bbell – child rearing – is it usually around older kids or younger ones or both? |
Katie M – regrets that I behaved or said something, not regret that I married my spouse! Sorry if it was unclear. Anne – great comment as usual although this is Devyn not Daniel. That is a great point on treating your spouse being learned behavior – I know people who grew up in homes with a lot of discord and they often struggle in their own relationships. You are right that they are probably not liars, just redefining what the word “argue” means. Ah regrets – I agree that a life without regrets is selfish or not lived… John – that is where I fit – verbal fighting only. My wife would beat me in a physical altercation… |
Oh, sorry, Devyn, as usual, I didn’t read carefully. The sentiment remains the same I could beat Billl up, but only because he’s trained never to hit a woman. |
John Gottman, a psychologist who has done interesting research on why marriages succeed or fail, claims there are three types of potentially successful marriages: (1) validating, (2) conflict-avoiding, and (3) volatile. Taking this as true (I don’t have any personal experience with the first two types!), I don’t assume President Hinckley was embellishing his description of his marriage. He just fit in a different category. Yet I’m not ashamed of our volatility. If I recall the results of Gottman’s research correctly, volatile marriages usually succeed when the ratio of positive to negative interactions stays above 5-to-1. If asked to describe my marriage as an old man, I won’t be able say there weren’t fights (or shouting or saying stupid things we regretted, etc., etc.) But I hopefully I can say the good times far, far outweighed the bad. |
I also remember hearing President Hinkley’s comment and thought it was very helpful for people to hear. Is that really an attainable goal? Should the rest of us feel like horrible spouses if we can’t do that? I honestly think on spouse needs to be completely passive for that to happen. |
I meant his comment “wasn’t very helpful.” |
Whether or not it’s attainable, I think it is worth striving for. “Be ye perfect”, for example. If we as a couple can’t do it, it is still worth our while. |
When I hear people talk about having no regrets, it usually does not mean that they never made a mistake. Like you said, realizing and analyzing mistakes is a great way to grow and learn. For some people, regretting having made the mistake would also mean regretting the growth, which they are not willing to do. As far as arguing/fighting with my wife, regardless of the resolution, I usually regret the fact that I didn’t behave better. |
Both, But the conflicts are more difficult over rebellious teenagers |
From a talk Gordon Hinckley gave at BYU in 1973: “One of my favorite newspaper columnists is Jenkin Lloyd Jones. In a recent article published in the News, he commented:
I’d like to leave that thought with you this morning.” |
Devyn, let me make sure that I understand you correctly before I call you How often must one get upset at one’s spouse in order to maintain this “healthy” relationship? |
Hinckley said “Never a harsh word”, not “never an arguement”. Maybe it’s different to him? My wife and I don’t fight much, but we do vent to each other a lot, and we do disagree often. Do I have regrets though? Not really. Maybe because I philosophically find regret to be a waste of time. |
SP Bailey – good insights. I think I fall into the volatile category as well and, yes, thus far, 13 years into it the good times far outweigh the bad. Joe – when GBH made that comment, I thought the same as you – he just caused more stress and strife in some marriages… M – I certainly would agree that we should strive for a argument free marriage, for when we attain that I guess we truly are one… Matt J – Agree on the regrets in both circumstances – sometimes it would be nice to have a rewind and delete button in our lives. |
Bbell – I would agree with that. The hardest part of our marriage thus far has been the two years we had some foster teens living with us. We look back at that time and laugh now, but it was miserable at the time. John M – I love it – “a high degree of mutual toleration”. It is a funny way of saying it, but I would not disagree with the statement. Brian J – Sorry – I was defining a disagreement from my perspective – yes, I think that if you do not disagree on something in your marriage, then something is wrong and it is likely not a healthy marriage. No two people will agree on everything. If someone says that they and their spouse agree on everything, then I think they are deceived… Matt W – I would guess you learn from your mistakes even if you do not regret them? Yes, I think the difference is in the definition of argument and disagreement. |
I think when President Gordon B. Hinckley states that he and his wife never had harsh words for each other in all their years of marriage, that he’s stating that from a rather highly-informed perspective of human relationships and he’s probably comparing the worst of his marriage with the worst that he’s seen and isn’t seeing any likeness in the comparison. We have to remember that the head of the church (as far as I know) personally handles the issue of temple divorce. In fact, anyone who has consistently held positions of responsibility in the church on the level of a bishopbric or higher has probably seen a good share of rotten marriages and the acrimony they involve – has witnessed up close many married couples who are on the way to divorce or perhaps in a lingering state of strong resentment/disgust/hatred for each other. What are harsh words? Any chance, for example, that in the history of his marriage, that President Hinckley ever roundly cursed out his wife? I’m pretty sure that never happened and that might be the kind of thing he’s talking about. |
In one of GBH’s biographies, there is an anecdote from his wife that it took about 10 years for their marriage to really hit a point where they got along. I’m vacationing, so I can’t find the exact quote. Disagreements? Yes. “Harsh words”. Maybe not. |
Nine years and four children later, I take issue with being called a liar. Do we disagree? Of course. Does the same person always get his/her way? No. Ever shouted? Called each other names? Heck no on both counts. And yes, we talk about important stuff all the time. You can’t have kids and not talk about important things. I’ve had regrets about things I’ve thought (and, rarely, said), but those aren’t any longer my problems – they’re Christ’s. My job is to learn from them rather than let them weigh me down with guilt. My wife and I are both fortunate to have civil parents. Neither of us witnessed a parental fight as children. On top of that, we both recognize weaknesses in our parents’ relationships, and work to make sure they don’t show up in ours. If there’s a hero in this story, it’s my mother. She came from a rough home, in which shouting matches – and worse – were a daily feature of home life. She brought none of that with her in her conduct with my dad. Or if she did, it was gone before my older brother was old enough to remember it. |
Queuno – I would be interested in that quote from MPH TRT – Given your description of disagreement that is an argument. Notice I did not say fight or physical altercation or loud yelling – I think that is inappropriate in any circumstance. I was poking fun at those who say they have never argued or disagreed with their spouse – I think they are lying. |
Queuno, I’d also be interested in reading that quote. I always appreciate being able to see the human side of our prophets – not so much because I celebrate their flaws, but rather because it helps me feel I can identify with them. |
This terminology thing is tricky. I’ll try for some clarification. We’ve never had a discussion that generated primarily bad vibes, or happened in the midst of being upset with each other. (We cool off first. It just sort of works out that way by mutual preference.) I can’t describe any of our discussions as confrontational. Have we ever had an argument? I can see a case for both answers based on different definitions of “argument”. |
Danithew – I feel the same way, if I know the prophet is human and puts his pants on one leg at a time, I can relate more. TRT – terminology is always a bear. Good for you for not having confrontational discussions. It would seem you and your spouse fall into the non volatile relationships laid out by SPBailey above #15 |
Okay, Devyn, reading through your replies I see that while you started this post with “fighting words”, you nevertheless recognize that some couples are capable of discussing disagreements without using language that they’ll later regret. I just wish (as I’m sure so do some of the other human commenters on this thread) that you could see civility in marriage as a trait humans can possess (#32). {smile, wink} |
Me too on the Hinkley bio. Would love to see that. |
I was raised in an unpredictable, volatile home. There was a lot of screaming, some hitting, frequent moving, and financial instability. The bishop who interviewed me for my initial temple recommend cautioned me that the first year of marriage was very difficult and counseled me to be ready to make changes. On the second anniversary of our engagement my husband and I talked about our marriage. For me it had been a wonderful time of happiness–far exceeding my expectations. I realized that day, although he certainly would not have phrased it so cruelly, that I was pretty hard for him to live with. Although I was the mildest person in my family of origin, compared to him I was moody, demanding, and whiney. I determined to repent and to try to make him as happy with me as I was with him. It was hard. (aside: did anyone watch the House episode where “niceness” was a symptom?) I failed and failed and despaired at the natural man in me. Five years later my husband got a promotion to his home state. We found the only way we could build a new house there was for me and the kids to live with my non-LDS, rural, poor in-laws in their tiny house while DH finished 3 months in the old job. I knew it would be horrible for all concerned. I was so wrong. They welcomed us all with open arms. They were so nice that I tried to be nicer. By the end of the summer I had a new vision of family life. They are smart, strong people. I saw them disagree over many things, but I never heard one unkind word, or raised voice the whole time. At summer’s end I realized I had been waiting for 8 years for my husband to lose his temper, to swear, to hit me, and I finally realized that I could finally relax because he wasn’t ever going to. That new vision gave me a goal, and my pursuit is still ongoing. Families like that do exist. Disagreements and hurt exist, but regrets are not overwhelming because forgiveness comes quickly. Usually with good natured humor. As I have seen the difficulties in my siblings’ marriages I have become even more grateful for having raised my children near my in-laws. About that time I became aware of Allen Bergin’s research at BYU. Another article worth reading is here: |
Brian J – had to do something to get you to read the post. |
S.P. Baily–I think it’s actually a 5-1 ratio of good to bad interactions in all healthy marriages. Unhealthy marriages trend toward a lower ratio. I don’t have my copy of Why Marriages Succeed or Fail handy, but as I recall he claimed even in a good relationship the ratio doesn’t get above 5 to 1, good to bad and I think he claimed that was because disagreements spice up a relationship. I’ve often wondered if people who claim they’ve never fought have memory loss more than are lying. I know my husband and I disagree, and I know we’ve had some pretty heated disagreements, but I don’t remember any of them. I don’t know how they started or what they were over, and sometimes, even though I know it’s not true, I feel like we’ve never fought at all. |
I think a couple can disagree and not fight. I think that they can discuss different points of view and not make the other upset. |
Thanks Kristine N – interesting data – I will have to check that out. Also agree on memory loss, but that extends into a lot of areas of my life. |
Lies, Lies, Lies by the Thompson Twins. Good song. Side Kicks is an underated 80s synth-pop album. “If You Were Here,” “Judy Do,” “We Are Detective,” “Sisters of Mercy”… a lot of great cuts on that album. Always like the “Lies Lies Lies” video too. It’s got that “You-Might-Think”-by-The-Cars kind of cheesy video technology. Pure 80s bliss. Check it on youtube. |
Devyn, putting “human” in italics was meant as a little joke to show that I was “on good terms” with you; it’s really not worth explaining (as it obviously wasn’t funny!). kristine, 37: I just don’t get this insistence that there has to be “bad” interactions within a healthy marriage, or that there is no way to avoid heated discussions. Seriously, I feel like a vegetarian trying to convince a bunch of omnivores that no, you really don’t have to include meat in a complete and healthy diet. |
Matt – I was wondering when someone would bring up the Thompson Twins song – I am surprised it took so long. I love the 80s Brian – got it – sorry I am a bit dense – always hard to get across humor in text. |
There’s a biography of GBH with tan and green on the cover, that has the anecdote about how it took “10 years” for GBH’s and MPH’s marriage to click. I read the quote in 2005 when I was visiting my brother in PA and accompanying him on one of his HC trips. The quote impressed me … because I’ve heard other long-married people say exactly the same thing. (I swear I’m not crazy. I’ll find it.) |
My marriage “took” right away. It took ten years for those rose colored glasses to fall off, another ten years to stew in resentment and five years of fighting before the separation. It may take another ten years to work out the kinks, then we could be geniunely happy before we turn 80. For us, disagreeing without fighting isn’t an option, it’s the only thing that will save our marriage. |
Queuno – I will be waiting for your quote… Anne – whatever it takes to work in a marriage is what is important in my mind. |
My only regret is arguing with my wife. And yes they are lairs. Either to themselves or to their spouse. |
Jamie – good to have you back – I have missed your comments – and thanks for the agreement… |
Queuno – still lots of us waiting with baited breath. I can’t seem to find a bio with tan and green on the cover: |
Soma…. Soma…. |
