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I also attended BYU after converting to the gospel at age 19. I do have to offer my opinion that LDS men are some of the most “domesticated” and “non-manly” men there are out there. Have you really paid attention in Elders’ Quorum on Sunday? Take a look around and tell me if I am mistaken. |
I wish more men at church would grow beards. Nothing more manly than a hairy face. |
I appreciate this analysis, Ellsworth. I think the cultural mood that seems to be emerging is that the Y chromosome is here, it’s manly, get used to it. By way of anecdotal evidence to support your observations, my capri pants have been gethering dust on the shelf the past few years. Ever since Queer Eye stopped airing, I’ve felt less inclined to wear them. |
Dan E., What do you think about our warmongering as reflective of the “breaking out” of the metrosexual 90s? It’s no longer the polished cosmopolitan man, but the rugged marine that gets the cultural top spot. |
I have to chuckle at this post, especially the attitudes it lets slip about gay men. Notwithstanding the so-called “Fab Five,” I know many gay men who would make the average male BYU student look like a big ol’ flaming sissy! |
Michael, Tagore, Dan, Nick, |
Yay for manliness: the Art of Manliness |
C Jones, that site is great. I like the article about why manly men go green. |
Maybe we need to add a weight room to the cultural hall. |
I’d like to add a barbecue pit and bike racks. I’d love to have outdoor Sunday School with barbecue. |
Our last stake center had a pavilion and fire pit. The scouts used it regularly. I’m reminded of “Animal House” when John Belushi comes down the stairs and sees the sensitive dude playing guitar for all the girls and smashes it. Then he sheepishly says “sorry”. I think metrosexuality has partly to do with our culture in general. Nowadays I think people are a little more granola and apt to sweat- less apt to wear the nicest suits and shoes. Recreation is bigger business than ever. I routinely work with Bureau of Land Management folks and environmental folk and they’re always planning their afternoons around hikes or biking or something cool like that. I could be wrong, but the 90′s and early 2000′s were a sissy time. I come to this conclusion after coaching high school football during that time. Sissies. Thank goodness for Man vs. Wild and such to peak our interest in being knowledgeable, grizzly, and wise. |
There were a lot of BYU guys who reminded me of this character from Bedazzled: |
C. Jones and Dan, glad you like the site. And Dan, I’m glad you liked the “manly men go green” post as it was almost universally hated by everyone else. I don’t think “retrosexuality” has to be just a return to “Machines, Sports, and the Female Form,” but also a return to great things being expected of men-virtue, skillfulness, commitment, responsibility, ect. Mormon men often have those things down pretty well but many in the general population of men seem a bit adrift. |
Michael #1 you are not mistaken. |
I’ll have more on this later, but what about the guys who *like* art and literature, and who would rather be inside on a sunny summer day watching baseball on TV than outdoors. Some of us don’t like sweating… |
I make a distinction (as does Dave Barry) between ‘guys’ and ‘men’. You can be a man and have all kinds of interests, whether they are confined to the Bermuda Triangle or not. (Do we call the metrosexual man’s interests ‘the Capri Triangle’?) But a guy, to be a true guy in this culture anyway, probably is a retrosexual. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. We haven’t talked about Barak Obama lately. Shall we drag him into it? Some people say he’s a bit feminized for a man. (I’m not sure I agree. I think he’s just got refined taste. Whether his policies are manly, we can leave for later…) Could this whole Jesse Jackson imbroglio be brilliantly effective subtle but powerful reminder that Obama actually does have nuts? |
Brett, |
Ellsworth: Sheee-yih. Real men don’t follow trends, or worry what others think about what they eat or do or how they dress. One of the manliest real-men of all time, pro football player Alex Karras, (pro football players are almost always, by definition, “real men”) took up crocheting (or was it knitting?) and wasn’t afraid to crochet/knit in public, like on a plane. When someone teased him about how crocheting wasn’t something that a manly football player was supposed to do, he replied something like “I don’t care what you think about my masculinity, I’ll do what I like.” Real men eat quiche or couscous, or they don’t; and they don’t care what others think about it. Real men can eat 1-1/4″ thick steaks grilled over hydrocarbon-producing charcoal, or they can be vegetarians. But the thing they have in common is that they do it because they want to, and don’t worry much about what others think about their masculinity. Pontificating about what’s “in” or “out” as far as manliness, doesn’t seem very manly to me. But then, if you’re a real man, you don’t care what I, or anyone else, thinks of your manliness. I try not to let TV shows and cultural trends influence my lifestyle choices. I like the T-shirts and bumper stickers that say “Real men love Jesus.” Anyone have any other cool “real men…” sayings? |
Well, now that Jeff has mentioned Barack Obama, |
Bookslinger, I don’t know of any other “Real men…” bumper stickers off hand, but Provo was the first place I saw the one that says Wrangler Butts Drive Me Nuts. I didn’t see if the driver was female or male, though. |
One of the best bishops I’ve had said that “a real man is a priesthood man”, with an emphasis on how well one magnified his priesthood… |
Dan E. I can’t imagine that your wife lets you dwell in the Bermuda Triangle too long. Besides, I know you’re more refined than this. You ride a bike to work for heaven’s sake, I don’t think any of the guys on Black Gold, Ice Road Truckers, or Deadliest Catch, do that. I’m tired of all the definitions of “man” that exclude me. I wasn’t a “metrosexual†and I’m not a “retrosexual†(at least not all the time). I like going to sports events live (there’s nothing more exciting than sitting on the glass in a corner seat at a hockey rink), but I could care less about watching it by myself on TV, or constantly following how various teams or players are performing. Include ‘politics’ as a sport and maybe I’ll qualify in this category. I appreciate the female form, but I am more than content with pondering the one that belongs to my wife. I love machines. Okay, you got me there. But what about all of the more refined tastes, those for which I’ve acquired an appreciation over time, and often with some effort – the final movement of Beethoven’s Ninth, the triumph of Javier’s Suicide (in the musical), the beauty of a master’s painting, the subtlety of truffle oil on my home-made pasta… I don’t think I’m any less a “man” because I can appreciate these things as much as I can appreciate the power of a full speed body check on the ice. At the same time, I’m not ready to go get my nails done, get a facial, or wear capris. I like Bookslinger’s point. I’m a man because I like doing what I do, and I don’t care what others think about. So, here I am, proclaiming my appreciation of the Broadway musical, asserting my prowess with a hacksaw, announcing a cheesecake baking throwdown with any takers, inviting my friends to share my firm’s rink-side hockey seats, and declaring with full tenor bravado, “I will not be defined, for I am a man!†|
It’s true, Jota G- we don’t dwell in the triangle nearly as much as the guys on Ax Men. But I think we should appreciate their approach to life being promoted as it is now, because if you ever find your wife watching Queer Eye and commenting that “you might do well to try the lip gloss they just put on that guy,” you can have her switch to Ax Men during the commercial break as an antidote. |
We have long dumped Queer Eye for Black Gold – did you see the one where the guy got his arm sliced open by a flying piece of metal, then taped it shut with a piece of electrical tape and went back to work? I agree that that is pretty manly. We’ve had people stub their toes in my law office and go on worker’s comp. Dude, you can’t use Lance Armstrong, who is regularly photographed prancing shirtless on the beach with “buddy” Matthew Maconaughey, as the icon of manliness… |
Lance Armstrong = Barry Bonds without the paper trail |
I also attended BYU after converting to the gospel at age 19. I do have to offer my opinion that LDS men are some of the most “domesticated†and “non-manly†men there are out there. Have you really paid attention in Elders’ Quorum on Sunday? Take a look around and tell me if I am mistaken. Michael, I’ll be the first one to tell you – you’re sorely mistaken. I guarantee that you’re anecdotal observations about Mormon men are more a reflection of the situation and part of the world these men grew up/live in (rather than a reflection of their Mormon-ness). In short – its time for you to get out of the American suburbs. I personally know Mormon men who hunt, raise cattle, drive semis, cliff jump, ride skeleton, have burly beards, used to be in gangs, fight/fought in war(s), rock climb, ride Bulls, have been in prison, live on the Mongolian tundra, run big game fishing boats in Alaska, herd sheep in the mountains of Peru and speer fish off the coast of Madagascar. And that’s just of the top of my head – the ones I know personally. If you’re assumption is that BYU men are sissies – then I would tend to agree with you. But remember, a very small percentage of the church ever attends Mormon U. |
…Danny Ainge played in 4 NBA finals, Steve Young won a Super Bowl (and suffered multiple concussions, Rulon Gardner won Olympic Gold in Wrestling, I once saw my Grandfather wrestler a steer to the ground with one hand and brand it with the other… Shall I go on? |
my google reader recommended this blog to me, so here i am. and deeply disturbed by your description of the sissy men you knew at BYU. the only reasonable explanation has to be that they were trying to impress women right? because guys aren’t really like that. but..come to think of it, i knew a guy {may or may not have dated him briefly} when i was at ricks who sang falsetto a lot and loved afterglow. creeped me out. |
Welcome, Aubrey. I use Google Reader as well, and I love it. I can scan all my favorite LDS blogs and all the news from the industries I follow in about 10 minutes a day. |
Dan, 19
Obama wasn’t criticized for liking arugula, but for complaining about the price of arugula, at Whole Foods, while campaigning in Iowa. Which is about him having a tin ear when addressing the non-wine and cheese crowd. These “retro-men” didn’t appear out of thin air. The oil rigs didn’t start drilling just to make a reality show. If you need pop culture’s seal of approval to shred your manpris then you will probably never be mistaken for a real man, even if you had an axe slung over your shoulder. “Regarding Afterglow, one of the happiest days of my mission was when my mission president banned Afterglow. There were guys in my mission who took it as a trial of their faith, but I wanted to jump for joy.” Reach down and grab a pair brother. |
Lance Armstrong = Barry Bonds without the paper trail So true. Cycling has always been kick-a$$, and “manly” |
ALthough the Bermuda Triangle seems too simplistic, most everything concerning a man falls into those three categories of interests. For an example, Hunting- involves machines and some aspects of sport. Where the woman falls into the equation is, in my opinion, the matter of manliness. I worked with a couple of guys who had big trucks, big guns, big deer stickers on those big trucks, and big divorces. Neglecting wife and kids for the sake of “manly” fun is stuff for boys, not men. On the other hand, I knew a kid on my mission who went hunting every year and packed the whole kill out to be canned and preserved for food during the year. That’s the stuff of men. An aside- one day he was sighting his gun in and the thing backfired- the bolt shot pack and impaled his cheek. Scars are manly, when they are not self-inflicted like spelling “Kurt Cobain 4ever” on one’s wrist. And I think there needs to be some clarification a to what exactly constitutes the “womanly form”. I think some form of gentlemanliness is critical. For instance, the long ride on the Provo-Salt Lake commuter bus usually yields 20 people standing in the isle nowadays. When there is a person of the female gender standing, it is right for a man to give up his seat, or at least to try to, to the point of insistence. And if the female refuses, as Elder Holland would say, “you should be CRUSHED!” So perhaps the point of “womanly form” could be changed just to “woman” and behaving virtuously toward her in thought and deed as well as contemplating to wonder of her form. The Lance comparison to Barry Bonds irks me bad. I know a couple of guys that rode professionally, at times against Lance. They have told me just how grueling professional cycling is- you work out to the point that you have no body fat, which makes it so you are sick nearly all the time, or at least feeling sick. Therefore, Lance has 2 things going for him: So making that comparison is inane, especially because of who made the accusations in the first place and the fact that no evidence has been brought forward, simply some vengeful guy’s word. And Dan my man, |
I’d go out with Lance Armstrong. |
Dan, I liked you comment about “guys with their rough edges neatly trimmed off.” Last week I drove our 14-year-old babysitter home and we started discussing the young men in the ward (our Stake Youth Conference was starting the next day) when she mentioned what a nice young man *Robby Ricks is and how lucky she would be to marry a boy like that. This kid is home schooled but if he wasn’t, he probably would have had the tar beaten out of him in public middle school for being so dang effeminate. I’m close to 20 years older than this young “man” and the kid creeps me out with how false and soft (I don’t know how else to explain it) he is. The other Deacons pick on him and he runs to his mother every time. I think any rough edges he may have developed were trimmed off by his mother long ago and I weep for his future. It isn’t that the boy is spiritual (several of the boys who pick on him are very spiritual kids who know their scriptures inside out), he’s just so concerned with looking good and emulating his mother (also a huge phony) that there’s no real boy left in him. My son is almost two and when he starts getting into scrapes (which I know is bound to happen) I hope my treatment of him helps him find a few rough edges his wife can neatly trim in his future. *Name has been changed to avoid his mother throwing a fit… Not that she’d be caught dead on MM. |
I have a man-crush on Lance Armstrong. Ever since the Nike commercial where he rides through America has the romance existed. |
Nasamomdele, that point about men who won’t stand up and offer their seats to a pregnant woman … wow. That is ridiculous. Calculated obliviousness like that ticks me off. |
#34 Paroled from the PP (btw I love your handle), I have encountered boys similar to the one you have written about. I also feel badly for this kid’s post teen life. However I have to point out that just cause a kid knows the scriptures, it does not mean that they are spiritual. A spiritual person follows the Savior and does what He would do, and Christ would not pick on someone who is a sissy. It is time we taught these kids that to know is to do. I am with you that you encourage your little boy in masculine things. Teach him to be a hero. Heroes defend the weak. Boys love heroes. All three of my boys (and one daughter) have “saved the day/world” demonstrating their powers for hours on end with a a light blanket or towel for a cape. |
Nasa, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjcZNR6MiRE What a stud. Yes, that commercial shows why so many of us have a man crush on Lance. That commercial reminds me how awesome it is to be American. Paroled, |
Dan: I’m not getting a clear indication from the post or your comments that the characteristics of “retrosexuality” as you call it aren’t also the symptoms of today’s Child-Man who, because of the economy and opportunities that the American middle class enjoys at the present time, becomes an adult or “grown-up”, if you prefer, twenty years later than they used to. Your “Bermuda Triangle of Men’s Thinking: Machines, Sports, and the Female Form” seems like more of a description of frat-boy mentality than something wholesome for “real men” to be adopting. I think the Art of Manliness blog does a much better job of identifying a type of retrosexuality than the concept of the “Bermuda Triangle of Men’s Thinking”. The authors of that blog might correct me if I am wrong but my sense is that they would posit that this triangle does not (or perhaps should not) form the core of manliness in the post-metrosexual age. |
JA (#34) I know what you’re saying and these other boys aren’t perfect but they do definitely have a spiritual side. I’ve watched most of them grow up in Primary to become the YM they are currently. I think the teasing is more of a long-standing habit with “Robby” than then really trying to be mean. More of a social experiment… But I absolutely agree that knowing the scriptures does not make you spiritual. I only coupled it with being spiritual because for most of these YM, it happens to be true. And I’m so glad the cape I Just picked up on eBay is a good investment! =) Dan (#38) I worry about homeschooling for the same reason. We have several families in our ward that home school and while it works for some children, others need more stimulation than just their families and church on Sunday to become better students and better people. Even the best teacher/parent can’t adequately replicate the environment of a large classroom. I feel children learn so much be learning from teachers they may not like, teachers with a teaching style that doesn’t perfectly fit their learning style, and having to wait their turn to comment or ask a question in a class. My 12-year-old niece had a very difficult year with a very unreasonable teacher this past school year and, while the experience was uncomfortable and even painful for her at times, she learned a lot about herself and how the world operates. She also learned about what kind of person she does not want to become. How could she ever learn the same lesson so well only experiencing environments hand picked by herself or her parents? |
john f (39), When I talk about the Triangle, I am making a positive statement, not a normative one. I posit that most men actually could dwell in that triangle most, if not all, of the time. That’s not saying we should, but we probably could. Others have done well at making the point that for a lot of us, work is a competitive thing and feels like a sport. And for many of us, things we do with computers and software satisfy our love for machinery. |
The Lance comparison to Barry Bonds irks me bad. If he were surly, or a Frenchman, or said bad things about America (or all three at the same time), there wouldn’t be as much of a love affair with him. If you take the accusations launched against him and took his name off it … it’s not that much different than the character assassination in the Mitchell Report. |
Or if his head showed evidence of growth. |
Yep. Check out these before and after pictures. Barry Bonds’ noggin expansion was unreal. His hat size went from 7.5 to 9.75. |
“What makes a man, a man, is how he handles responsability” (a very rough Church member I know) End of Argument. |
I must have just missed the “girly-man” era at BYU, or else I lived in the wrong complex. The guys in my ward went deer hunting and hung the carcass in the stairwell. Most of the guys that I knew taking ballroom were burly enough to actually execute the lifts with a “normal” sized partner. I was more annoyed with the girls who were so into “that was so creative how he proposed” or “the date invitation was so unique”, “he wrote me a poem/song/etc…” It is possible that this push for “creativeness” may have pushed the normal guy over the edge. Come on, what was so wrong with a phone call invite to a burger and a movie? My man is a man. (I didn’t meet him at BYU, he is a convert, and there was no proposal.) He hunts, fishes, chops wood, and has a job that requires steel toed footwear. He also reads his scriptures everyday, attends church and temple, and we have family night each week. He feels completely at ease walking into a fabric store (wearing his steel toed boots); selecting a pattern from the books; fingering high end silks, woolens, velvets, and cashmeres; and picking the perfect fabric for an outfit for me to sew for myself or someone else. Best of all, he doesn’t look at the price per yard! If people are thinking that all Mormon men are weanies, they obviously haven’t been to my ward. If you happen to be in the hall when elder’s quorum is let out, you’re very likely to hear conversations about rifles, hunting, fishing, snowmachines, and home construction projects. |
(The last bit of my comment didn’t paste.) Although I personally prefer my man, I don’t think that doing all these outdoor “manly” things is really what makes a man. I know plenty of men that are slight of build (you can’t choose your genes) and have professions that require suits. They are not any less “men” because of this. They have taken the responsibilities of the priesthood and their families to heart and live their lives accordingly. I think that manliness is more of an attitude than a job, look, or lifestyle. |