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| Friday, November 21, 2008 |
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My wife and I am exactly in this boat at the moment. My guess is that we could all make it to the celestial kingdom, but I won’t be any more obligated to spend quality time with them as am I now. I.e. — “being sealed” just means you’re part of the tribe. It’s not like you have have celestial family home evenings with them. We live in my own corner of the country, and we like not having the rest of them around… |
I think we understand almost nothing about how people will live over there- the tendancy to imagine nuclear families living together, whatever that means, fizzles quickly when you imagine living with your children, who get to live with their spouse and children, who marry and live with their spouses, and children, and in laws, etc and before you know it it’s more of an entire human family and what does being together with just a spouse and your children or your parents even mean anymore? and what about people you loved who weren’t sealed family members? I think we’re left to guess at most of this eternal life stuff. but anyway, this quote where the sealing concept is being introduced certainly leaves room for sealing non-family-line relationships. It’s just not something we do these days. D&C 132 7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, |
Devyn I understand what your feeling I hope this helps it has help my husband and I alot with our family. Its from a blog that a few of my friends and I put together about testimonys. In this talk from Elder Hale we get to CHOOSE. Good luck. Julia Eternal Family At the October 1996 General Conference, Elder Robert D. Hales gave a talk about Eternal Families. The talk is filled with scripture regarding the eternal nature of families and God’s plan for his children. The line that struck me most, however, was not scripture. It was a comment made by Elder Hales made after quoting Doctrine & Covenants 132:19. He said: “As taught in this scripture, an eternal bond doesn’t just happen as a result of sealing covenants we make in the temple. How we conduct ourselves in this life will determine what we will be in all the eternities to come. To receive the blessings of the sealing that our Heavenly Father has given to us, we have to keep the commandments and conduct ourselves in such a way that our families will want to live with us in the eternities.” This was such a powerful statement to me. My husband and I married in the LDS Arizona Temple. We are sealed and our children our sealed to us. But as Elder Hale pointed out, being sealed is not the only thing that we must do. We must 1) Keep the commandments and 2) Conduct ourselves in such a way that our family will WANT to live with us in the eternities! I knew the “keep the commandment” part, but had not thought about whether my family would want to be with me forever. Isn’t that an amazing concept! Are we treating our spouse in a way that they will want to be with us forever? What about our children? Do we show them love and respect? Do we treat them like the children of God that they are? Or do we abuse the role of parent? Will those darling children want to be with you for all eternity? Or would they rather be with their friend’s family? I love my family and I want to be with them through the eternities. I’m pretty sure that they want to be with me too. But even so, I am going to strive even harder to conduct myself in such a way that my family will want to be with me forever. To earn their love and respect. And to teach them the commandments, so that we can all make it back to our Father in Heaven together! |
I love my family and I want to be with them through the eternities. I’m pretty sure that they want to be with me too. But even so, I am going to strive even harder to conduct myself in such a way that my family will want to be with me forever. To earn their love and respect. So how do you approach it when you have terrible conflicts family members, in situations where it’s just healthier to avoid them completely? There’s not much you can do to fix that… (One might argue that they probably won’t make the CK anyway, but that’s a difficult argument to make…) (But I do agree on your larger point about working on ourselves to make us more desirable to live with…) |
Joseph Smith’s vision was for the entire human family to be sealed together, and I really don’t know what the significance of spouse, child, and servant meant for him. All I do know is that sealing meant something way different for Joseph Smith than it does for most modern Mormons. So, I don’t believe sealings enforce familial relationships, at least in the way we think of it today. I also don’t even believe that sealings force you to remain in a bad relationship with your spouse for eternity. The “families can be together forever” idea is focusing on a byproduct of the patriarchal order of the priesthood, something that isn’t talked about much and is typically understood even less in today’s church, at least in the sense that the early prophets of this dispensation understood it. The important thing is to have the sealing ordinance performed, and then let God sort it out. My God is a merciful God. |
families can be together forever But it’s a cute song. The important thing is to have the sealing ordinance performed, and then let God sort it out. My God is a merciful God. God as a merciful Clint Eastwood. I like it. |
Like queuno suggested (using the word “tribe”), it’s probably like getting into the club, after which you can have parties with whichever members you want. But, it’s impossible to know the mind of God… I just figure that when all is said and done I’d rather be sealed than not, right? KyleM seems to have articulated that pretty well. I don’t think God’s plan for our eternal happiness involves perpetuating interpersonal misery, though if all concerned get to the Celestial Kingdom, we’ll be more perfect versions of ourselves, which will make it easier to get along anyway. For the record, I have no qualms with being with my own family… and if my wife is out there reading, I can’t imagine ever wanting to be with anyone else! |
Queuno - Thanks for the points. Merciful Clint Eastwood - wow that is an interesting picture in my mind… So based on the comments thus far, I guess you get to choose who you spend time with in the eternities so move to the other side of the universe cchrissy - thanks for the comment - we seem to have been left guessing on a lot of the post-life things which is fine for now I guess. Thanks Julia - I appreciate the comment. Choice does make sense as our free agency should continue after this life - thanks that is something I had not really thought about before! Kyle - Great point. I forgot how liberal Joseph’s view of sealing was - he wanted everyone sealed to him it seemed. It certainly makes me realize how little we know and how sanitized the primary song is. Orwell - Perpetuating Eternal Misery - what a great term! I sure hope that the plan does not include that - therefore, there will be no EQ or HP group meetings in the hereafter - yes! |
There’s no way on God’s green earth I’m living with my mother-in-law and her daughters in eternity. |
A former bishop told me that in working to get families to the temple he encountered a few couples who were worthy and prepared to go to the temple, but didn’t want to be sealed because they didn’t especially like each other. They felt they could handle maintaining their marriages until death at which point they would welcome a release from that service. |
“. . . and he would rather be linked to those friends eternally . . .” Well, what else are children and arranged marriages for? |
If someone has developed the requisite spiritual qualities such that God sees fit to place them in the celestial kingdom, I assume their society will not be too objectionable to me in the afterlife. And if I can’t let go of whatever past offenses an exalted being may have committed against me, then that individual’s presence in the CK won’t be much of a problem since I probably won’t be there myself. |
JimD - Of course you’re right, but that’s cold comfort at the moment. I prefer to live thinking that I don’t have to see them, even in eternity. Let’s say there’s a billion people who make it through to the CK. Odds are good I can pick new friends to hang with, since I’ll be sealed to them all, anyway… |
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the kind of people who God will take into the Celestial Kingdom will only be those who won’t be put off by their relatives’ less-than-charitable attitudes, and who aren’t the cause of friction between family members. If you can’t do that, then you probably aren’t CK material anyways, and you won’t have to worry about it. |
JimD, I think you worded it better than I did. |
annegb…”There’s no way on God’s green earth I’m living with my mother-in-law and her daughters in eternity”. WOW…After my conversation with you, I am sure they are happy about your above statement and your feelings toward them. Awwww, can’t you feel all the love in the CK? |
It’s been a while since I’ve heard “true” christian love. Thanks for poking you head back in, Helen. Every time you comment on here, it reminds me why I dislike the company of evangelicals even more than I dislike the company of mormons. |
#9 Anne - You crack me up - I certainly feel that way about some people I know as well (and I am sure they feel similarly) #10/11 John - Interesting, I guess the couples were honest with the Bishop - not sure how one handles that… As for arranged marriages - hmmm… that is not a bad idea.. Mark N and Jim D - As queuno says you are likely right, but do you really think we are all happy and loving in the CK and we like everyone? I have a hard time seeing us getting along perfectly with everyone, but that is likely why I won’t be there… #16 - Helen - given your lovely sensitive comment, I am glad I am NOT related to you or I would really NOT want to be sealed to you… |
Sorry to burst your bubbles KyleM, but I am not an evangelical, whatever, you think that “term” means…lol |
Devyn S…like I would want to be sealed to you? |
I didn’t know I had bubbles, nor did I know they needed bursting. How about born-again christian? Does that work, or do you just hate mormons with out a reason? |
Helen - likely true on both sides. At least you made me laugh! |
1. Everybody who makes it to the exaltation level in the CK (there are 2 non-exalted levels), will constitute “The Church of the Firstborn” and will eventually have achieved the necessary attributes of perfection for exalted beings. (And I’ll throw in that while the eventual Kingdom+Level of any given person will be known in the resurrection, because you’re quickened/resurrected by the glory of the kingdom you’re going to, crossing the final line into “exaltation” status may take thousands or millions of years post-resurrection.) Therefore, I firmly believe that exalted beings will have the necessary attributes of perfections, including perfect god-like (well, they will be gods, actually) personaliities they will be able to overcome the squabbles and differences they had back when they were flesh-and-blood mortals. Fer cryin’ out loud, if you’re exalted and living in And if you’re in the lower 2 levels of the CK, or in the Terestial or Telestial, then you’ll be living “singly and separately” and NOT in family units. 2. I think (opinion, not doctrine) that there are going to be two lines of sealings: A. The sealings we’re doing in the temple now is genealogical sealing. It has to be done, and will be done, all the way back to Adam. However, that “chain” that is being forged will hop-skip-jump across the 3 kingdoms, as grand-parents, parents, kids, and grand-kids will be sprinkled across all three kingdoms. B. Yet, the members of “The Church of the Firstborn”, the exalted ones, if they _all_ live in family units, in the same kingdom, there’s some scripture (can’t lay my finger on it now) that implies that they have to have another “line” or “chain” of sealing from Adam/Eve on down, that stays within “The Church of the Firstborn” section of the CK. In other words, there’s going to be an earthly temple sealing from you-to-your-parents, and you-to-your kids. But, if there’s a “gap” because one generation “didn’t make it”, the exalted people above them, and the exalted people below them, may have to close the gap. That’s assuming that everyone in “The Church of the Firstborn” (the exalted ones) has to be sealed to someone else among the exalted ones. I could be wrong on that, because I can’t remember the scripture that led me to believe that. The other thing that causes me to assume that, is the logical implication created by the statement “everyone in the highest degree of the CK lives in ‘family units’, but everyone else does _not_”. Hence, the “law of adoption”, which is what the early saints in the 1800’s did before Wilford Woodruff said to “just seal to your blood relatives, no more picking and choosing.” —- Bottom line: don’t worry. As exalted beings (gods), you’ll all be able to work things out. And if you (or your ornery relatives) don’t make it to the top level of the CK, you still don’t have to worry, because those who don’t make it don’t live as family units, and those who do make it can be “adoption sealed” to someone else. —- PS. Welcome back Helen. Nice to know you still care about us. |
Thanks Bookslinger - nice response on all fronts - So it sounds like I should shoot for the lower part of the CK and then I can live by those people whom I like and just live really close to my family too! Seriously, it is very complex and we don’t even have a grasp on most of it, but thanks for the differentiation between types of sealings. |
Devyn: I caught up on the comments, and #12 (JimD) and #14 (Mark N.) actually said my first point more succinctly than I. My second point is speculation, what I infer from the sum of the tid-bits given out in the D & C, plus current statements of the Brethren. I’ve often thought life would be easier if I aimed for the bottom level of the CK, or settled for the Terrestrial. But given my aim, I’d miss and end up lower. So if we try for the top of the CK and miss, we still have two lower levels that would keep us in the CK. I’m still lazy, and “less-than-valiant” about many things, and I’ve sometimes contemplated the Terrestrial Kingdom. But the response to those prayers is sometimes “That’s not what I want for you.” |
Happy to provide some of you with smiles, today |
I’ve been gone because of a car wreck in California and moving from Nauvoo in June ‘08…yes, I do care about you and thanks for the welcome back, I think?D&C 121 (IF WE ARE GOOD AND KIND…) 41 No apower or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; 42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— (…THEN YOUR POSTERITY-here called dominion-WILL WANT TO COME (OR “FLOW”) TO YOU) V. 46 “The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant acompanion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of brighteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. “ |
I tend to think of the celestial kingdom as a society of people who want to be around each other. So if you have family or friends you can’t stand being around, I wouldn’t worry about it. You’ll probably be someplace else. |
Bookslinger - sometimes it would be easier to shoot for the Terrestrial. I had a member on my mission who wanted to go there - he said “everyone says it is so much better than this life, so why try harder?” It was kind of hard to refute… Helen - I hope you are feeling better - where are you moving to? You are welcome here as long as you keep us smiling. Carlos - what if it is not the posterity, but you peers you don’t necessarily want flowing near you? Eric - I like you view - seems to fit my view nicely… |
The problem is that both “you’re probably not going to the Celestial Kingdom if xxx” and “I’m probably not going to the Celestial Kingdom” are both unrighteous judgments. I believe attitudes like this are a cancer in the Church that causes a lot of unnecessary grief, guilt, and pain. Perfection in Christ (not in fact, in Christ) and justification before God happen in *this life* upon sincerely entering the covenant, and they last as long as you press forward. After you’re both perfected in fact, you and that brother you can’t stand will come to an understanding. You may very well be in awe of each other. These animal bodies of ours naturally desire ungodly things, and when they’re fashioned after Christ’s perfect body, they just won’t anymore. |
I think everything in the gospel is choice. we will never be with someone we dont want to be and vice versa |
Mortality comes with a lot of baggage. I suspect there are many things about the celestial kingdom (heaven) that we do not even begin to comprehend. When we have passed on and then been resurrected and then been judged - at that point I suspect there are many things we will understand that we do not understand now - about ourselves and also about others. |
Helen and I had a nice cordial conversation until I realized that she is all about attacking my religion. Then I politely told her we could never be friends. I didn’t attack you the way you’ve just attacked me, Helen, now or ever. I think that shows what you’re made of and I’m incredibly disappointed in you. That is not Christianity. The truth of the matter is that we will all be different people in the hereafter, our best. I suppose I’ll be able to tolerate anyone (if I find I can tolerate living with anyone) then. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: I don’t care what kingdom I go to. I trust in God on that one. |
Just because my wife and I forgive her family, doesn’t mean we necessarily want to be near them. Is that wrong? (Not quite the same level as “do we have to hang out in the CK?”, but analogous). We’re trying hard to let bygones by bygones and forgive, but we don’t want to put ourselves in a position where we have to forgive (or be forgiven) again… |
TRT - fair points. You are likely correct (FYI I don’t have issues with my brother) that we strive for perfection in this life and achieve it via the atonement. My mind is just too small to comprehend perfection without good and bad still in existence though which means that there will be people whom I will not like. Queuno - I agree with you - why set yourselves up for more heartache if you can avoid it. |
queuno: “We’re trying hard to let bygones by bygones and forgive, but we don’t want to put ourselves in a position where we have to forgive (or be forgiven) again…” That’s a good way of putting it, especially when the other party is doing something hurtful and hasn’t stopped, such as situations of abuse. There are a lot of tricky situations where the abuser doesn’t realize what they are doing (emotional/verbal abuse, etc) is abusive or hurtful. Even trickier is when the abuser is such a nice person (Dr. Jeckyl) in public or around other people, but turns into a “Mr. Hyde” towards their family members when in the four walls of their home. 24 years ago I met a man who verbally abused his wife in front of me and a friend while we were all visiting at this friend’s house. I shuddered at the time, and couldn’t believe the vitriol and unrighteous dominion coming out of his mouth. I was too new in the church to know what to do. She was holding their first new-born at the time, maybe just a month old. I heard she stayed with him through six children, and finally divorced him. Everyone wondered why she had done such a horrible thing. But when I remembered what kind of man he was, I don’t blame her one bit. She did other things during the marrage to get back at him before the divorce, and people saw those, and some thought she was the guilty party, or the majority-guilty party. I knew another married couple with just one son, when he came back from his mission and got married. The wife (the RM’s mom, that is) divorced her husband, who was serving as a bishop at the time. Pretty much the same story. She decided to stick through long enough so her son had a family to come back to off his mission. |
Bookslinger - I think it is sad that a spouse will be miserable for that long. However, after having kids, I can see why they would be reluctant to divorce as that would be a tremendous burden on the kids. Those are sad stories all around. |
I home teach a certain family. The wife is a returned missionary, has a college degree, married a good guy (with a high-paying job and advanced degrees), has several lovely children, and mostly stays at home but has a part-time at-home job on the side. They are very active in the ward, attend the temple regularly, have multiple callings, do a wonderful job with their children, yadda yadda yadda. Seems like your model family, right? I have heard during HT visits (both scheduled and requested) about how the her mother has threatened to call CPS because she doesn’t like how the children are raised (something about rooms were messy when she showed up for an impromptu visit). I’ve heard how her mother criticized the husband for getting laid off in a bad market (”shows you how he’s not really smart”). The stories I hear never change — criticism over weight, criticism over hair, criticism over the car they bought, criticism over her part-time job, criticism over which hotel they stayed in on vacation, criticism over the actual vacation destination choice, criticism over her college choice (this, 17 years later), criticism over the Christmas card the daughter designed. Of course, the mother is well-respected in certain SLC and Church circles. So obviously, she’s not the problem, right? It’s got the be the shiftless, good-for-nothing daughter and her lazy husband, right? These people are the most Christlike people I know, because there’s no way I’d ever put up with that abuse on a semi-regular basis. I’d not give the mother the opportunity to continue her game. |
Queuno - good anecdote - I would pretty much disinvite that certain person from coming to my house at that point. There are a lot of sad stories like this behind every seemingly perfect family. |
Devin S…Helen - I hope you are feeling better - where are you moving to? You are welcome here as long as you keep us smiling. I’m working on the feeling better with a cracked spine from this last wreck, thanks but it is a big…Ouch for sure right now. |
