Yawn.

Ann,

That’s because their Jesus hates you.

Love that quote, Ann.

This brings up an important doctrinal point to ponder: Is the skateboard in flames because the ollie is “wicked,” and thus consumed by everlasting hellfire, or are the flames purifying its wickedness with the Holy Spirit?

Anne, you remain a champ.

I just tried the link to that web page and it produced an error. But, if you type in the url alternative “WeUseToAgree.com” leaving the “d” off “Used” it works.

Tom Jones 9,

Are you someone who justifies attacking another’s religion?

The scriptures regarding Churches of the devil also refer to the “Church of the Lamb of God” as the antithesis. Those scriptures do not make mention of the “Mormon” Church. They make mention of the covenant nature of the Church of the Lamb of God, but in no way puts the Mormon Church against all other Churches. The Lord addresses His “Covenant” people, which makes a strong implication for Mormons, but also for Israelites. You have only exposed a very simple-minded attack on Mormons when the attack ought to be directed either at the scripture or the doctrine, which would also be an attack on Jewish tradition, for one. Good luck with that.

The desire people have to “save souls” by reviling another’s beliefs is unGodly. The only right way to go about it is to understand the other’s beliefs and if you can, provide something more. It is never positive to be negative.

“Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!”

I disagree that the BoM attacks the Catholic church, or any other organization. If one believes it refers to a specific organization, it can be applied to anyone. I’d be surprised if the fundamentalists don’t use those scriptures to refer to our church. Even though many taught that the Catholic church was the great and abominable church when my father was a kid, I believe there is currently a more nuanced view of the scripture as nasamomdele points out in comment 12. I believe the majority of Mormons believe it does not refer to, nor justify attacking, anyone’s church.

A careful reading of JSH also shows that the various churches, and certainly not the congregants, are not what God finds abominable. He was not instructed to tear down any churches, or mock their congregants. He was not told to warn his family about the evils of associating with people of any faith. He was simply given instruction that would help prepare him for his role in this dispensation.

Perhaps Joseph’s own words sum it up best when describing how we wish to be treated and should treat the faith of others.

“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. “ - AoF 11

annegb: I think you’re oversimplifying Helen’s and Rocky’s motivations.

It’s only been about 35 years or so since the LDS missionary discussions stopped overtly attacking the Catholic church, and protestant churches. My mission president told me that in his mission (in early 1960’s I think) that in the first discussion misssionares back then went into the apostasy and said the Catholic church was wrong, and their protestant break-away churches were wrong along with them.

Fortunately, the missionary discussions have gotten more diplomatic. (Even though there may not have been memorized discussions back then, there were still outlines to be used.)

Another point: I think Mormons sometimes mistakenly think we have “exclusive access” to God. Mormons have exclusive _authority_, as in the priesthood. But God is still bound to listen to prayers from anyone in any church, and to answer prayers that are made in accordance with his will.

When someone gets a prayer or request answered as they are participating in other church, I can see how someone might then mistakenly think they are on track for all the answers, that that is the “right” church, and that their preacher is the “right” preacher.

I had some powerful spiritual experiences before I found the LDS church. But fortunately, I still realized there was “more” out there that those other churches didn’t have, even though they had many good things.

Another point: Are the “accepting Christ as one’s Savior” or “born again” or “getting saved” experiences in other churches legitimately of God? They certainly can be. Unless you are there to observe and unless you also have the gift of discernment at the same time, you just can’t tell.

It’s a matter of interpretation. There was a point when I was in another church, when I had an experience where I came to believe in Christ (then a couple weeks later I came to an “I know” type of testimony of Christ, through the Holy Ghost). I can remember that point in time when I came to believe in Christ, while I was standing in some other church.

That was a legitimate experience, and I still cherish it. I have fond memories of their preacher who helped me come to that point. (And a not-so-nice memory of an over-bearing Sunday School teacher at that church, who tried to force a conversion experience on me.)

But the existence of an over-bearing Sunday School teacher didn’t mean that God and Jesus weren’t real. (He was a jerk, but there still might be a God and a Jesus.) And the legitimacy of the answer (”Yes, I’m here, and I want you to follow me”) that I received later in the day to my prayer of “Are you there God?”, did not mean that the preacher was entirely correct about everything, or that that was God’s official, or true, or best, church.

Such conversion experiences (what they call “being born again” or “geting saved”) are similar to a couple instances in the Book of Mormon, namely Lamoni’s experience with Ammon, and Lamoni’s father’s experience with Aaron. We would call those an “outpouring of the Spirit” or a “conversion experience.”

Mormons tend to focus more on “conversion as a process”, and we mostly don’t publicly talk about powerful events. We focus more on enduing to the end, and growing over a period of time. Or we may refer to conversion experiences as “receiving a testimony.”

I think the LDS church still does have a lot of overlap with evangelicals. We still _DO_ agree with them. But we don’t focus on those things, because those things are merely one small portion. Gaining a testimony is only a beginning. And big-time conversion experiences don’t happen to everyone. Most people have a series of smaller growth patterns.

I read somewhere about some LDS members who were formerly evangelicals. They went back and visited an evangelical type church. And to them, it was like going back to grade school or kindergarten. The LDS members saw how they had spiritually matured beyond their former peers. They didn’t stop believing what they formerly believed, but had added so much more to it. Their former peers were happy and joyous, but were in a state of arrested development.

It’s really hard to tell a happy evangelical they are wrong, because for the most part, they’re right: they believe in Christ and him crucified as an Atonement for the sins of the world. If that’s the be-all and end-all of their religion, and nothing really comes after being “born again” or “getting saved”, and they want no more, then there’s nothing we can offer them, as they have their fullness of joy. Their cup is full, and won’t hold more.

Thank you, Bookslinger!

What you have written is an excellent summary of the Truth and I enjoyed reading it.

To supplement your words, it’s important to remember that although the members of the Church Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve each possess all Priesthood keys, only one person at a time on the Earth, the Prophet, has the authority to use all of them.

Bookslinger (16),

I really enjoyed reading of how you found Christ in the context of another Church, and to be honest, I think it’s something I envy about other Churches- the laser focus on experiencing the power of Christ. I do value a lot of our less central doctrines, but I also think that we have a problem in that it’s easy to lose focus on the Savior when there are so many other nice things to talk about.

Bookslinger: awesome insight. That’s why you get the big bucks

I found Christ in an evangelical church when I was 8 years old, baptized into the Mormon church when I was 12 (that story’s been told).

But I never believed I was worthy, I felt, truly, like God’s stepchild. Still do, to some extent.

However, I found God in AA. The people and the literature taught me how to approach Him and lean on Him. Always a work in progress, but I’m ever grateful for other programs/churches that teach us of God’s love.

Bookslinger, I might be oversimplifying. I think Helen reminds me a lot of my sister (in appearance, as well as attitude) and those were her motives. She’d been hurt and humiliated.

I remember when Elder Lee was excommunicated and Elder Packer made a comment (I think, I could be misquoting badly) that he, personally, could have been more loving.

I joined the church, but I attended another church because they treated me more lovingly.

Again, I say, we focus too much on task and not enough on people. Like Sister Hinckley said, “save the relationship!”