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Greek temple thing? Because of course Greek architecture is nowhere to be found in America. I think our capitol building, White House, and well, everything in DC was inspired by the Pigmies of Africa…oh wait. Can all of you see how silly Republicans have become? McCain talks in front of a “Greek temple thing” http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/08/columns.php Bush’s 2004 convention had “Greek temple things.” http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0808/Bushs_2004_temple.html You realize, DKL, how much this insults your own intelligence? It shows you have no realization of the nation you live in. Or it shows that you go along with your fellow Republicans in your character attack, baseless, pointless effort to demean and trivialize your opponent instead of going after what their ideas are, or more importantly proclaiming your own “good” ideas. Clearly you feel you cannot win by standing on your own principles. |
Dan, looks like I touched a nerve. I’m glad you’re psyched about Obama’s Greek temple thing — somebody should be. Even so, I think that your inability to differentiate a painted plywood, made-to-order Greek temple thing from a permanent building or a column-themed convention backdrop is rather daft. As is your conclusion that I cannot mock Obama’s vanity and still object to him on principle. I shudder to think of how low I’d have to descend to say something about Obama that you deem intelligent! |
DKL, listen to Dan, because he knows what he is talking about. His own crappy blog NEVER, EVER demeans or trivializes his opponents, and it NEVER, EVER insults his own intelligence, since he has so very little of it to start with. Holy hell, Dan. Are you always such a ray of sunshine? DKL gives a review of the convention that is 85% positive and you put on the brass knuckles. I honestly think you need to get some professional help. |
I have a feeling that if Obama could have done without Biden or the Clintons, he would have. |
DKL, nice review. I have to say that I’m surprised you were so fair—not to bash you, just that I know you’re no Dem. I thought Hillary’s speech was superb; exactly what Obama needed. As for Michelle’s speech, I took it differently than you (but then again, I am the intended audience). She spoke about her blue-collar dad, health struggles, kids having a better life than their parents; in other words, things that Democrats care about. She didn’t have to spell it out. |
I think I would prefer the convention much more without the pundits, but they always suck me in! Really, I thought Michelle’s speech was great and then the pundits told me it didn’t do what it was supposed to do, etc., and made me feel bad for her. I also thought HRC’s speech was very nice (and I am no HRC fan), and then the pundit’s talked about all the things she could have done differently. I am just glad Sacrament Meeting doesn’t come with pundits, because I already have a hard enough time enjoying it. Never having been to a convention, I wonder about all the dead time and the Dem after Dem who come out and speak when no one REALLY wants to hear them. I think someone needs to revamp the format and make it flow better and more concise. I think it is VERY SILLY that Mitt is in town. What a waste. It’s like the protesters at Pageant. Anyway, looking forward to the big speech tomorrow and will be interested in the RNC show next week. (Biden doesn’t do anything for me, either. Such loose lips) |
DKL,
Actually no you didn’t. But it still boggles my mind. We are a Greek-inspired nation. It is all over our architecture, including our government institutions the nation over. What the hell are you guys doing demeaning the common, especially when your own man did so four years ago? It’s just simply stupid and it is unbelievable that our nation is run by such stupid people. It just boggles my mind. Maybe I should wholly lower my expectations and expect the worst of people. Then maybe I will be impressed when they act just above their worst. |
Again with the stupid. Dan, do you really think you are any smarter than anybody else around here? You’ve made 1343 comments on this site, and most of them provide persuasive evidence that you are not. |
I don’t say I’m smarter than anyone else. I have no doubt that DKL is a very smart man and smarter than me. But he keeps stooping down to the stupid, and I just don’t get it. Like I said. It is my mistake. I expect too high a standard for smart people. I expect them to not stoop down to the stupid. I should not have that expectation. My expectation should be that everybody acts stupid, so that when they don’t act stupid, I’m impressed. But that is really sad. |
I think they should turn these into awards shows. “Justin Timberlake presents The Democratic National Convention” (I think he was funny at the ESPYs). What’s Billy Crystal doing? Steve Martin? Whoopie? Even David Letterman would be funny. “Mitt (Romney), meet Mike (Huckabee).” |
The argument about the Greek temple imagery is a sublimation of precisely what is wrong with political discourse in America. Republican makes some lame, but mildly insulting comment. Democrat immediately becomes offended and initiates an entire exchange pointing out the obvious: that Republicans are dangerously insane and should be locked up for safety’s sake. :) Nice job, guys! Looking forward to next week’s installment. |
Dan: But it still boggles my mind. We are a Greek-inspired nation. It is all over our architecture, including our government institutions the nation over. You’re always at your most ridiculous when you employ equivalency arguments. It’s not that equivalence arguments are bad, per se. It’s that you always try to liken things that are palpably and transparently dissimilar. You’re always at your second most ridiculous when you latch onto and regurgitate the first thing you find on the internet that defends your candidate. Dan: What the hell are you guys doing demeaning the common, especially when your own man did so four years ago? Bush spoke before a backdrop decorated with columns. I was there. It didn’t look the slightest thing like a Greek temple thing. Barack Obama has ordered a made-to-order Greek temple thing. And lets take a look at what I say:
First of all, it really does remind me of Stonehenge set in Spinal Tap. George Bush’s didn’t. Press conferences on the step of the Capitol (columns and all) don’t either. Keep in mind that different things remind different people of the Stonehenge set in Spinal Tap. Oboma’s Greek temple thing is one of those things that reminds me of it. Second, I really do feel like voters will think it’s weird. This is pretty tame stuff. From your reaction, you’d think I said something like, “Obama is a real moron for building the Greek temple thing.” |
ECS: Republican makes some lame, but mildly insulting comment. Are you talking about you or me? |
I’m not the one who brought up the Greek temples. |
Great. I’m glad we cleared that one up. Next question: ECS: Republicans are dangerously insane and should be locked up for safety’s sake. Again, are you talking about you or me? |
I’m talking about the hyperbole that Democrats use tirelessly. But if the shoe fits… |
Awesome. Once again, I’m glad we cleared that up: Next question: ECS: …imagery is a sublimation of precisely… Again: Are you talking about you or me? |
Not sure how far we can take the Ted Kennedy/Alexander Hamilton comparison. Scandal? Check. Illicit sex? Check. Deaths under shady circumstances? Check. Great deal of influence? Check. Bastards? Check. Unsteady and erratic? Check. Courageous in the face of physical danger? Check. Winebibbers? You betcha. But brilliant intellect with ideas that will last generations and help bind and preserve the Republic? Uh, no. Not even close. I’m not too bothered by the Greek temple thing, or even the quasi-Presidential seal. I may even vote for the guy. But honestly, it’s the zeal of some of his supporters that creeps me out the most, and all I can say about that music video you link to is, “eeew”. Some of this stuff reminds me of what Mussolini used to do. It’s unseemly to see in proletarian America, and I’m afraid, it validates some of what Jonah Goldberg tried to say in his book Liberal Fascists that many on the left (though not exclusively on the left) are very prone to hero worship of their political leaders. I am sick to death of all this rhapsodizing about Reagan, but at least the Republicans wait until their leaders are dead (to say nothing of actually having been elected) before they deify them! |
Jeff, Please? You think Democrats are worshipping their political leaders? Have you even read what some of your conservative bloggers write about Bush? Are you kidding me? Once again, what Republicans do is thrust upon the Democrats falsely and then Republicans accuse Democrats of doing what they themselves do. DKL,
That’s because you choose to let it remind you of the ridiculous (btw, the scene in Spinal Tap is probably the funniest in the entire movie), because you prefer to demean and belittle your opponent rather than go after his points, or, more importantly, stand on your own points. And this is the derangement of the Republican brand. It has always been a sickly brand that cannot stand on its own qualities. It can only stand when all opponents are utterly smeared and reviled. It is repulsive which is why it requires the demeaning and belittling of the opponent. You can’t see, DKL, just how much the Republican brand has lost its way, how awful it has become. It stands for lies, it promotes lies, half-truths, and distortions. Take Jonah Goldberg’s silly book “Liberal Fascism.” Jonah knows quite well that fascism is a nationalistic-right-wing ideology (hell, his own magazine, The Nation, praised Fascists and fascist ideology in its past), but he takes provocative words (like fascism) and add his own definition to it and then slaps that label on liberals as if he thinks it will stick. It will, for those who have drunk their kool-aid. But it isn’t lasting, because it isn’t real. It won’t endure because it doesn’t build. It destroys. That’s the Republican brand—destruction. I am still boggled that smart men would stoop to such stupid levels. I’ll probably be boggled by this throughout the eternities. It doesn’t make sense. I keep hoping for better out of people, but clearly I should hope for their worst and then I’ll probably be happier with Republicans. Expect the worst out of them and then things are fine. |
Uh, sorry I meant the National Review, not the Nation. The Nation is a liberal magazine, and the National Review is the conservative one with ties to fascism. |
We’re living outside the US again and have to rely on Radio France and Al-Jezeera for convention coverage. There is very matter of fact coverage (Hillary endorses Obama in her speech) laced with the wierdest cult of personality vignettes, “Rednecks for Obama” (there are two of them) and lots of college co-eds gushing about their love for Obama. To listen to it here you half expect his speech to be met with a flurry of bras and panties. That and a lot of Biden saying “Obama was right , McCain was wrong” which is a little presumptuous if you ask me. What is completely missing is any substantial development of Obama’s depth or breadth as a political leader, and it’s lacking is starting to be telling. This is a guy, who just three years ago, was getting a wide-eyed tour of the capital building (here is the coffee machine, dial ’9′ for an outside line). A year and half ago he announced he wanted to be president when he grew up and started a campaign, never having managed as much as a Carl’s Junior. He doesn’t even manage the family budget, Michelle does that. Now he dons his toga and wreath of olive leaves and strides onto the stage of his Greek temple to accept the adulation of so many adorants. it almost seems like a costume parade, “I can act like the candidate we have been waiting for.” If Obama is elected, I bet that after six months of having his lunch money stolen by the Washington political machine he is going to realize that if he was as smart he wouldn’t have voted for himself. I think there are a lot of the Democratic leadership that look at an inexperienced leader and a person who is afraid to make a personal stand (I vote present) and see a rubber-stamp patsy who will not hinder their legislative plans. |
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect, Dan. |
National Review – the Nation |
DKL – your interrogation technique needs some work. No wonder Republicans endorse waterboarding to elicit the answers they want to hear. |
Thanks DKL – nice summary. As a Democrat (and Hillary supporter), I was impressed with her speech as well as Bills. I was also surprised that neither Bill nor Hillary said that Barack had the experience to be President – they talked around it, not sure if that was on purpose. That is the key issue for me – someone who has been a Senator for 4 years (two of those while running for President) is NOT qualified to be President. Therefore, much to DKLs delight I am likely going to vote for McCain, since Hillary is not running anymore. First vote for a Republican candidate for President for me ever…. |
ECS: No wonder Republicans endorse waterboarding to elicit the answers they want to hear. Are you talking about you or me? |
Dan, Obama is pompous and vain and grandiose enough that he seems to be laying it out there just to bait people to hit him with the racist stereotype of the pompous-but-lazy negro politician of the black-and-tan reconstruction era. Or maybe Obama is hoping somebody will use stereotype of the social-climbing black man by saying that Obama’s Greek temple thing is like a Cadillac: “Other candidates settled for a speech at their convention, but Obama said, “Hell, no, bro! I’m drivin’ a Caddilac!” Obama seems to be baiting people to make racist comments like these so that he can bemoan racism some more and return to being the uniter. Imagine how people would react to Romney if he regularly handed out Book of Mormons at press conferences to proselyte or pontificated about Mormon standards, family home evening, and eternal families at turn. |
Dan, look on the bright side, tonight you’ll get to see Obama hurl lightning at us deranged Republicans from the top of Mount Olympus! You can run Karl Rove, but you can’t hide! |
Dan, once again, you need to stop. You complain of people belittling their opponents and yet that is all you do. Again, you do a disservice to you and your cause by the way you present yourself. Anyway, any thoughts on last nights “surprise” guest? Lame. If I were Biden I’d be a little upset about that. And I understand why there was a need to have Hillary speak, but why Bill? At the convention four years ago it was pretty clear what the future of the Democratic Party was (Obama). But now? |
I listened to the convention yesterday on the radio for a couple hours, and the thought that kept going through my mind was: “If this is a legitimate way to stage a political rally, then someone owes Leni Riefenstahl an apology.” Exemplifying this was the woman who got all sad at the realization that her oldest son was one year old when Bush was elected, and so the entire lives of her children have been overshadowed by the terrible monster who lives in the White House. Because after all, the single, ever-present, all-consuming fact of our existence is that George Bush is the U.S. President, but come Inaugural Day our lives will be given a new meaning in the form of a new President, BARACK O BAMA! |
Dan, this is your big chance. Maybe if you’re a really good boy, the great Obama will allow you to sacrifice yourself on the altar of his “greek temple thing” when the frenzied masses reach fever pitch. |
I was also reminded of Lewis Napper’s analysis of Gilligan’s Island: The Skipper represents official government. His authority stems not so much from democratic election as from the traditional role and powers of a ship’s captain. This historical precedent seems to convey his right to leadership more than any personal characteristics or qualifications. The castaways rely on this symbolic “right†to leadership to unofficially consent to his capacity as governor. |
ESO, I agree with you about the pundits. What amazes me is that they have so very much to say. Where does it all come from? As far as the dead time, what happens is this: During the majority of non-primetime speeches, most conventioners do not show up and very few members of the press do. The conventioners are enjoying the city, and the press is broadcasting and writing things in the area set aside for them (you can walk around these areas and see prominent members of the press interviewing prominent party figures for TV and radio; when I first saw such shows being broadcast, they looked very different from what I expected based on how they appear on television — plus, all the broadcasters, even the one’s that look young on TV like Shepherd Smith, look so very old in person and wear an insane amount of makeup and eye liner). Those conventioners and members-of-the press who are there generally ignore the speaker altogether and talk and walk around the stadium/convention hall. The result is the rather ridiculous appearance of a speaker who is speaking to an almost empty hall with no sign that anybody is paying any attention at all. But on the TV, the camera is close up and the microphone doesn’t pick up the chatter in the convention hall, so it appears that the speaker is the center of attention of an audience as large as you saw the night before when they captured the full, prime-time convention hall with a wide-angle shot. One rumor is that Romney is in town because he’s either aware that he’s a likely VP choice and its worthwhile to have the party see him attacking the left. He may also just be campaiging for VP. But don’t worry about Romney being there. There will be plenty of Democrats at the Republican convention. Why? Because politicians go where the press goes. |
Dan – maybe you should sit back and enjoy the fairly positive response from DKL. |
Denyn S, I’m very happy to hear that you’re voting for McCain. Welcome aboard the crazy train! |
Devyn, Positive? DKL? About a Democrat? Did you miss this comment?
Hmmm that may be positive in Bizarro World! |
DKL,
Thank you for finally admitting what is the truth. ;) |
Dan – I was referring to his inital post which is fairly positive for DKL – surprisingly so. His comments and yours back and forth have not exactly been positive… |
I wish all you stupid, ridiculous, repulsive, sickly, stupid, deranged people would quit belittling, demeaning, smearing and reviling your opponent. It is just mind-boggling to contemplate how stupid and ridiculous and repulsive you are. But I guess that’s just my fault for expecting you to be something other than stupid, ridiculous, repulsive, sickly, stupid, and deranged. My bad. |
Devyn, Yes, his original post was fairly positive. |
DKL – I would not say I am excited about voting for McCain, but he is the lesser of two evils in this case. Of course I wrote in Clinton in 2004 as I could not see a lesser of two evils in that election (sigh). But if McCain picks Huckabee for his running mate, I am writing in Hillary. |
Devyn, McCain is not the lesser of two evils. He is the worst. Democrats are not doing the right message here in characterizing McCain. John McCain would not be “more of the same.” He would be “even worse.” I wish that Democrats would paint him like this because it is true. John McCain will lead America into a war with Iran, Devyn. Is that what you want? Do you want to send Americans into Iran? John McCain is a hothead who cannot control his anger. He lashes out first, and then thinks about how to respond to the consequences of his lashing out. This is not the quality we should have as a leader of our nation. John McCain will bring us into Cold War II with Russia, another pointless confrontation with an old foe. John McCain will not end the use of torture that Bush began. He will continue its legitimizing. He will bring further dishonor to our country, Devyn. How can you say he is the “lesser of two evils?” |
On Domestic matters, Devyn, John McCain will effectively end Social Security. He will “privatize it” which means it will end. He will ensure that the judges he will appoint will abolish Roe v. Wade (I don’t know what your own views are on that, but if you’ve never voted for a Republican before remember that this is their pinnacle issue) and make it illegal for women to get an abortion IN ALL CASES! How can you say he is the lesser of two evils? On foreign policy, John McCain was wrong about Iraq in 2001/2002/2003. He was a full supporter of that war right from the beginning, Devyn. What does that tell you about his judgment? He claims the Surge was a success but then uses another aspect that had nothing to do with the Surge that began before the surge and claims it proves him right (that being the Anbar Awakening, which started in September 2006, six months before we began approving the Surge). In Jordan, in a press conference, John McCain made the ridiculous claim that Iran was training Al-Qaeda and had to be corrected by the liberal, Joe Lieberman. You know, for someone who claims to be an “expert” in foreign policy, it sure must be humiliating to not even know the difference between extremist Sunni and Shi’ite groups, ESPECIALLY when we’ve been intimately involved with them for the past seven years! Surely by now, he would know the difference. But he didn’t. He repeated that lie more than that one time. How can you say he is the lesser of two evils? |
Best line of the convention so far was by Ohio Gov. Ted Strickland:
|
“and make it illegal for women to get an abortion IN ALL CASES!” My goodness Dan, did you just subtly admit that you are a Republican? Remember what you said about Republicans a couple posts ago? “It stands for lies, it promotes lies, half-truths, and distortions.” Well, there you go… “On foreign policy, John McCain was wrong about Iraq in 2001/2002/2003. He was a full supporter of that war right from the beginning, Devyn. What does that tell you about his judgment?” The real question that you should be thinking about if you feel that way about the initial Iraq decision is what does that tell you about Biden’s judgement. |
“John McCain will lead America into a war with Iran, Devyn. Is that what you want? Do you want to send Americans into Iran?” “John McCain will bring us into Cold War II with Russia” Now who’s spreading fear? There’s no way a Democratic Congress approves a war against Iran. |
Dan, your absolute obsession with politics is a serious detriment to your character and personality. |
Aluwid, Are you making the claim that Republicans will not make abortion illegal in all cases? Tim,
You know, that’s what I thought in 2002 about Iraq. |
danithew, I hope it comes across well that want Republicans out of power and held accountable for their violations of the Constitution. I want the war in Iraq ended. We never should have gone in. The moment that a Democrat becomes president who promises to end the war and starts ending the war is when I will start to retire from political blogging. I don’t enjoy this. But I hate even worse what Republicans have done to my country these past eight years. Utterly utterly awful. |
Dan – A couple of thoughts. First, I see myself as a social liberal and fiscal conservative – 1. Someone has to fix Social Security. It is unlikely that McCain would privatize completely, but with the Dem Congress, hopefully they can find a good alternative – something needs to be done though. 2. On judges – honestly I really doubt any Supreme Court judges will overturn Roe v Wade at this point – that is pure fear mongering on your part. I am pro-choice and don’t see that ever going away. 3. On Iraq – a lot of Dems were wrong on Iraq too in 2001/2002/2003. I am sure most of us were. Oh well, so now we have the mess, lets get out in an orderly fashion – that seems to be what everyone is saying on both sides. 4. Here is what I do NOT like about Obama a. He has two years of meaningful national experience in the Senate – 2, that is all If he waited another 6 years in the Senate, then ran, I would probably be ok with voting for him. |
Dan, “Are you making the claim that Republicans will not make abortion illegal in all cases?” No Dan, I’m making the case that Democrats not only support Same Sex Marriage but will forcibly marry all of us to members of the same sex. That’s right guys, DEMOCRATS WILL MAKE YOU MARRY A DUDE! |
Dan, 43
Too easy, read this article; |
MAC, Ah, Republican Mormons are indeed a single-issue group. Thanks for clearing that up. I hope you enjoy war and torture. As long as unborn babies are safe, I guess. |
Norm Al Mormon, Thanks for the words of defense. You express my feelings about Dan’s objections very clearly. Steve, I agree. Obama would have chosen someone else if he could have weathered the lack-of-experience storm without them. BrianJ, I’m surprised that you’re surprised that my review is fair. You’re right about Michelle talking about blue-collar parents, health struggles, better life for kids — but both parties have about equal numbers of working class voters, and everybody cares about health struggles and a better life for the children. I think that only the core, primary-voting constituency views these as uniquely Democratic. |
“Ah, Republican Mormons are indeed a single-issue group” In fairness Dan, we’re also against ritualistic animal sacrifice, which brings us right back to Obama’s speech tonight at a Greek temple thing. |
Devyn, #1. On Social Security. It isn’t in as big of a hole as some claim. In fact, I’ve seen reports that it can be ‘saved’ by an amount equal to what we’ve spent on the War in Iraq. Ironic eh? We’re fine with spending our money at killing people, but we dare not use it to save people. That’s a biting line, and I’m sorry, but it’s true. We are more willing to use our money to wage war than to help our elderly. Social Security can be saved if we choose to do it. Frankly, I look forward to receiving social security when I retire. I’m paying for today’s retirees, and I hope our children will be willing to pay for us when we retire. One thing to remember about Social Security. If you attempt to privatize it, you’ve got to add about $1 trillion extra dollars from somewhere to start accounting for the new privatized money. The money you give today to Social Security doesn’t go into a bank for your use. It is used for today’s retirees. That’s the way the system was created originally. You must add extra money if you want to do anything different. Are you ready to raise taxes to get it done? Or are you willing to stop today’s retirees from receiving their earned security? 2. You bet there are judges who are very willing to overturn Roe V Wade. Four of them are on the Supreme Court right now, Devyn. All you need is one more and it’s done. 3. I agree with you definitely. I was very upset with Democrats for voting for the war in 2002. That’s why Clinton lost. She voted for the war and was unrepentant about it. Biden voted for the war, but changed his view afterward. That was smart of him. The evidence was there that we were being lied to by the Bush administration. I’m sorry that so many Americans let their anger at 9/11 cloud their judgment and allow the war in Iraq to happen. It was one of the saddest periods in our nation’s otherwise fine history. 4. About Obama, on spending, I think you will be surprised how much he will continue Bill Clinton’s legacy. Remember, in 1992 (as Bill himself reminded us last night), Clinton was also criticized for his “lack of experience.” How did he turn out?
You do realize that he actually has been somewhere except for his recent EU trip. He LIVED in Indonesia. Having gone on trips does not make one experienced, or more importantly, wise. How wise has John McCain been? |
Aluwid, Greek animal sacrifice? Because Judeo-Christian culture and tradition didn’t have any ritualistic animal sacrifices…oh wait… now, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? |
I have been reading a bit about Biden, particularly this past weekend, and I think there are a lot of things to like about him. I found myself wishing he had been president instead of Bill Clinton. |
Dan, you’ve become the Adam Greenwood of the Democratic party. I’d be willing to back hate-speech legislation just because it could justly be used to shut you up. Stop now, while you still understand why it’s a bad idea to become a suicide bomber. |
DKL, Support an end to the war in Iraq, support the abolition of torture. Support those and I will end my speaking here. |
“He LIVED in Indonesia” Because nothing provides more foreign policy experience than living in a foreign country when you are six years old. |
Aluwid, My point was that Devyn was wrong about Obama. Obama had actually lived elsewhere in the world. My point is that simply traveling the world does not make one “experienced” or “wise.” John McCain is one of the unwisest “travelers.” If he can’t tell the difference between Shi’ites and Sunnis after ALL THIS TIME, you really ought to be concerned about him being president. |
Dan: Support an end to the war in Iraq I support victory, and nothing ends a war like victory does. Dan: support the abolition of torture. Of course I support the abolition of torture! This is America, for crying out loud. I also do not believe that water-boarding is torture, and neither does Congress. The Geneva convention mentions water-boarding exactly as many times as it mentions chocolate. But you insist against reason and against popular opinion that it is in order to invent a moral high ground out of thin air and preach about the evils of torture. |
Dan, You’re absolutely correct, making verbal slips means you aren’t qualified to be President. I’m predicting that Senator Obama will sweep Senator McCain in all 57 states. |
Aluwid, you’re really short-changing Obama’s foreign policy experience if you’re not counting the fact that he has a brother who lives in Kenya. (With all the money they’re sinking into that Greek temple thing, I’ll bet they could have bought Obama’s brother a new shack!) |
DKL, What is “victory” in Iraq? You do not support the abolition of torture, DKL. Yes, this is America, and it is very sad to see people like you justify torture as not. You ought to be ashamed! Do you not even realize where the CIA learned the tricks they are using? They learned them from the Communists! Ask John McCain, when talking about his experience with torture, exactly what they had done to him. You’ll find that they tortured him with sleep deprivation, using stress points, and other things that the CIA is now using on their detainees. This is torture no matter how many times you say it is not. |
Ok, my last post on this thread: Sure McCain has seven houses, but at least he doesn’t live on Mount Olympus. Vote for the man that knows he is mortal! |
Aluwid, If McCain makes a verbal slip, I really wouldn’t care. But when it is REPEATED, then you ought to start questioning it. You know how many times he has said that Iran was training Al-Qaeda? He repeated the same thing at least three times that I can remember. Obama’s 57 state thing was simply a gaffe. McCain wants America to think Iran is in collusion with Al-Qaeda. That is highly troubling. |
“He LIVED in Indonesia.” Wow. Seriously? I doubt you give Romeny credit for serving a mission in France as Foreign Policy experience. |
Aluwid,
Hmmm, if Barack actually lived on Mount Olympus, you’d have a point. As he doesn’t, you’re just stupid. |
Careful about Malik Obama. There’s also Cindy McCain’s not-rich half-sister to throw in the mix. |
Tim, If you read my comment carefully (which I note you are not) you’d see that I wasn’t making the point that his living in Indonesia makes him “qualified.” It merely was a response to Devyn who said:
As this wasn’t true, I merely corrected Devyn. I then go on to make the point that being elsewhere in the world doesn’t necessarily make you qualified for the president. Just look at McCain who has been to numerous places. He is still an unwise man and unqualified to lead us. So Romney’s France experience won’t necessarily help him in claiming experience in foreign policy, especially since he constantly derides the French. Must have had a bad mission… |
John, excellent point. Not to mention John’s ex-wife, who he cheated on with the rich heiress. |
This has been a fun read. I’ve got this picture of Dan sitting at his computer, saliva specks peppering his monitor, sweat from his shaking brow flying across the room and foam dripping from his mouth as his fingers tremble violently over the keyboard… One of the most over-the-top deifiers of Obama was on NPR Morning Edition today. He was talking about turning points in history, “…like Moses, like Jesus…” and Obama? |
You watch it, too, Dan, or I’ll bring up Obama’s goofy grandpa, flaky commie-loving mother, and love-em-and-leave-em Marxist father. |
Dan – I still think the guy has too little experience – which is why I and likely many other Hillary supporters will flip to McCain. On Social Security – Obama will raise taxes anyway, he has openly stated that. On Foreign Policy – it is difficult to claim that Obama has more experience than McCain – 2 years in the Senate vs 20+ there is no comparison |
Devyn, I’m not talking about “experience.” I’m talking about wisdom. I think “experience” is overrated. John McCain proves that. He may be in the Senate for 20+ years, but that doesn’t make him wise. He fully supported the war in Iraq in 2002. He supports bombing Iran. He’ll take you to war with them, Devyn. He is not wise. He is brash, a hothead. It doesn’t matter that Obama is fairly new to the scene (as Bill reminded us yesterday, so was he in 1992). I’m telling you that voting for McCain is a mistake. You can vote for who you like, but I’m telling you it is not wise to vote for McCain if you want America to get better. |
Dan, 77 It is significantly more unwise to take someone who has displayed no particular wisdom, or any qualification other than the ability to give a nice speech, and give them the presidency. i am just hoping that most of the ethnic studies students and their ilk, who handed Obama the nomination, will have found some particularly good weed on November 3rd and forget why the happened to leave the house on the morning of the 4th, that or be distracted by a fluttering Wal-mart bag floating through downtown Madison (damn townies, they should just stay home and watch Jerry Springer). it is pretty obvious today that, if the Democrats had any wisdom at all, they would have nominated Hillary Clinton. That lady deserves the highest honor the RNC can issue. As a matter of fact I think I am going to send $10 to her campaign debt retirement fund and go home to feel particularly good about myself this evening. Today I will be an honorary Puma. I heart Monica Lewinsky, soon to be the butterfly-effect-savior of western culture. |
“He supports bombing Iran. He’ll take you to war with them, Devyn.” I doubt McCain’s first order of business is sending bombers into Tehran, Dan. I think McCain would rather NOT bomb Iran. |
Tim,
really? What evidence do you have to the contrary? |
Dan, He’s playing to the crowd. Again, no way Congress authorizes invading Iran. McCain may be crazy (probably is) but he’s not stupid. |
Oh really? http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/26/breaking-lieberman-kyls-iran-amendment-passes/ |
Devyn, one last point to make on how bad a McCain presidency will be. Just take a look at what John Goodman (no not the actor), who helped McCain craft his health care “policies” said about how to deal with the uninsured: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_08/014446.php
Devyn, as you are well aware, such emergency room visits tend to be quite expensive for the doctors and the patients. Tell me, does it make any sense what McCain’s health care policy “expert” says here? Think about it. As Steve Benen writes:
The point of health care insurance is prevention. Prevention costs far less than curing does. It is far cheaper to propose a plan like Obama’s that creates incentives to prevent diseases and visits to the emergency rooms. Under McCain’s plan, taxpayers will be paying MORE because hospitals will pass along their debt to taxpayers to pay. How is McCain the “lesser of two evils?” |
“Oh really? http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/26/breaking-lieberman-kyls-iran-amendment-passes/” Funny, at the bottom listing those that didn’t vote, McCain and Obama. Classic. |
Dan, You sound like a cantankerous grandpa. How do you like the convention? I’m loading up my M-16 and getting my Bible ready for the GOP convention. It’s gonna be a HOOT! |
Tim, Indeed. You ought to ask Mr. McCain why he hasn’t voted in his current job representing Arizona for like the last year or so…talk about Mr. Ambition and Mr. Presumptuous—Mr. McCain is your man. |
I agree, which is why America doesn’t like Senators. All they do is vote, and much of the time, they can’t even do that. :) Also note that Hillary, Bayh, and Schumer voted “yea”. I’m also not too sure what the fuss is about the bill. I don’t find where it says the U.S. can invade Iraq. It only says the US is authorized to fight Iranian agents in Iraq. I don’t think that sounds unreasonable, though I only scanned a few excerpts. |
“…where the U.S. can invade IRAN…” Freudian slip if there ever was one… |
Tim, Here are some relevant parts of the bill:
While it is not a direct call for arms against Iran’s own territory, it expressly authorizes America to use its military against “Iranian actors” supposedly operating in Iraq. What does it mean if those Iranian actors were to, say, flee back into Iran…Well the Bush administration (or in the future, the McCain administration) can hearken back to this bill and claim Congress gave him the authority to act against Iran. It sets the stage. And yes, Clinton voted for it, as did Bayh. Which is why I am glad Clinton lost in the primaries and super glad Obama didn’t choose Bayh as his running mate. Speaking of Bayh, I thought his speech at the convention was terrible. He kept invoking McCain’s “that’s not change we can believe in.” I kept thinking to myself, “dude, why are you using McCain’s language? It was awful when he used it. Don’t mimic the foolish or you become a fool too. |
Dan, here is someone who also thinks that Obama probably isn’t ready for the presidency. You may already be familiar with him, his name is Barack Obama.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/28/video-a-new-mccain-spokesman-for-obamas-unreadiness/ |
MAC, Let’s see, he said that he should start then, in 2004. I think he did. He began by electrifying the Democratic crowd in the 2004 convention, and then began his service in the Senate. So, to this point, he is on target. I don’t see, in that clip, anywhere him saying that he needed to serve a particular length of time in the Senate. If he tried in 2004 to run for president, then clearly he would have failed. But he didn’t. So what point are you trying to make? |
Sorry Dan, I just don’t buy the wisdom argument for Obama. While he may be intelligent, he is still very inexperienced, while McCain is very experienced, while not perfect. |
Devyn, Did you vote for Clinton in 1992? |
Bill Clinton was the State AG win 1976 and governer by 1978. I still don’t recall ever hearing someone say Bill Clinton was too young and experienced. Who was saying that in 1992? |
Running a state is different than voting in the Senate. Just because Clinton compares he and Obama’s lack of experience, doesn’t make it viable. Clinton was elected Governor in 1978. He didn’t run for President until 1992. I don’t see much of a comparison. |
Kyle, Tim, The argument in 1992 was that Clinton was too young and inexperienced to lead America. He seemed to do just fine by me. |
Who argued that? |
Kyle, You’re in luck. Bill Kristol just helped you out.
Who do you think would argue that a Democrat would be too “inexperienced” to lead? Lying Republicans of course! |
George Bush senior said the following:
That’s from an archive search in Google. Found in the Fort Worth Star Telegram on February 22, 1992. In the Boston Globe, Richard Lugar stated:
You can do a search yourself for more results. One of the elderly Bush’s main strategies was to attempt to paint Bill Clinton as inexperienced. It is a common strategy by Republicans. In their eyes, only Republicans are experienced enough to run our country. But like I said, experience is overrated. |
Devyn, Don’t listen to the Republicans. They are lying to you. Barack Obama will do just fine. Don’t let Republicans scare you away from the right choice. The right choice is NOT John McCain. |
DKL, 54: I wasn’t the only one surprised by your fair review (see #38). At any rate, I didn’t mean my comment as a slight to you—as though you are typically a big liar, etc.—rather, as a compliment. It’s not often that anyone can be fair towards those he opposes. “I think that only the core, primary-voting constituency views these as uniquely Democratic.” That’s my point. Michelle didn’t need to spell out why she is a Democrat. She didn’t even need to say the word “Democrat.” Given the context, all she had to do was talk about the little guy, etc. and everyone listening would know that she equates those values with the Democratic Party. |
Dan, if Clinton lacked the appropriate experience, then Obama a fortiori lacks the appropriate experience. But not the other way around. So it doesn’t much matter whether anyone currently thinks that Clinton lacked experience. This comparison of Clinton’s experience and Obama’s experience is yet another one of your inane equivalencies. You define things as equivalent according to what suits your prejudices and the whims of your argument. The end result is that, in your rhetoric, everything ends up being just like everything else, and you simply eliminate the value of equivalence altogether. Like I said, you’re, always at his most ridiculous when he employs equivalency arguments. Dan: You do not support the abolition of torture, DKL. You’re equivocating here on the word torture. You’re defining the moral import of my view in absolutist terms that presuppose that you are correct. A more accurate thing to say would be, “According to my definition of torture, you do not suport the abolition of torture.” But you don’t like this, because in your mind, only our own position is arguable and potentially valid. Dan: Yes, this is America, and it is very sad to see people like you justify torture as not. You ought to be ashamed! I’m quite proud actually. Congress and most of those who vote in America stand with me, by the way. This doesn’t mean that I’m right, but it does mean that mine is not an extremist position. You’re the one that is kinda’ out on a limb here, and according to you pretty much everyone should feel ashamed of themselves except you and your extremist friends — which is more than a bit self-serving. Dan: Do you not even realize where the CIA learned the tricks they are using? They learned them from the Communists! Now look here: Say what you will about Obama and his associates, but he did not teach the CIA how to torture. He wasn’t even alive when the CIA was formed. Dan: Ask John McCain, when talking about his experience with torture, exactly what they had done to him. You’ll find that they tortured him with sleep deprivation, using stress points, and other things that the CIA is now using on their detainees. I resent your talking about “what torture did to him.” And I find it offensive that you would imply that John McCain’s torture as a POW makes his unfit to be commmander in chief. Dan: This is torture no matter how many times you say it is not. On the contrary: reasonable people can disagree about what constitutes torture no matter how many times you say they can’t. You’re a nut, Dan. I’m beginning to wonder if someday, you aren’t going to build yourself a Greek temple thing in the forests of Montana and start mailing people bombs. |
Devyn, I understand and even share with you the experience concern over Obama. But my question is, why does McCain’s experience make you comfortable with him? Yes, he is experienced, but if you don’t care for his goals and voting record, why would you want him and all of his experience? I would say right now that George Bush is very, very experienced, but no way would I vote for him. To put it another way: would you rather vote for the guy you expect will do what you don’t want done or for the guy you’re unsure can do what you do want done? (Why do I feel like I’m poaching from Bilbo Baggins?) |
On October 13, 1992, George Bush said:
From USA Today (via Lexis) Boston Globe, August 1, 1992:
New York Times, August 2, 1992:
Sounds eerily familiar, doesn’t it? Washington Post, August 18, 1992:
There’s Lugar again. I won’t give anymore. There are 97 results in Lexis Nexis from Jan, 1992 to Nov 1992 on “Bill Clinton inexperience.” Republicans tried to paint him as an amateur, unqualified for president. But alas, it didn’t work. And it won’t work today, with Barack Obama. |
DKL, If morality was a matter of relativity, then you would be right. What I see as torture is not what you would see as torture. But alas, there are standards above what you or I may like. On one of them, you are siding with the bad. Sleep deprivation is torture, no matter who does it to whom. Sleep deprivation is one of the tactics that the CIA borrowed from the Soviets. Waterboarding comes from the Spanish Inquisition. These tactics, at their heart, have one purpose—to extract a confession. That confession is false, but the torturers don’t care. They are putting on a game, a show. That we would employ these very same tactics is reprehensible and an offense to those who fought AGAINST that kind of tyranny! You side with the Soviets, DKL, and you don’t really care.
I’m sure most Germans were proud when Nazis were legitimized by the entire governing process in Germany. That still doesn’t make them right.
Indeed they should. We say we stand for certain principles, but yet when push comes to shove, we fail to adhere to them. That is something to be ashamed of.
It’s a good thing they aren’t communists then. The communists in our country are the ones who employ communist torture techniques and those who support such actions. That would include you, comrade DKL.
Um, I think you misread my post (not uncommon from a conservative). I said what THEY did to him. i.e. the Vietnamese. Please read more carefully in the future. Don’t let that commie propaganda get to your head.
On this they can’t actually. |
Dan – Clinton had been governor for 10+ years – enough said there. And I did vote for him in 1992 and in 1996 and in 2004 :) Brian J – fair points except given the rhetoric that Obama is spouting, I don’t agree with his fiscal policies – there is no way he can do everything he says and not raise taxes or overspend the budget. Conversely, I think that I agree with most of McCains issues, therefore, since I can “stand” McCain more than I can “stand” Obama, I am going to have to vote for him. |
Devyn, Well I’m sorry to hear that. Unfortunately you will vote for the loser in this campaign. But I hope you give Obama the full support he will need. I know Republicans will do everything in their power to undermine his presidency. That’s their way. |
Uh. You’re kidding, right? It’s EVERYBODY’s way. Which is why a lot of America is sick of politics as usual. I wish an independent could get elected. Oh, right, then everybody else would undermine him. |
Do you want to know how the Vietnamese torture is affecting McCain today? When they meet for their final debate, McCain is going to pull a gun and shoot Obama square in the chest. Then Senator |
All those quotes brought up Clinton’s life experience, a fair differentiation at the time between him and Bush. It represents PART of what Bill Clinton is (this week) trying to equate between his circumstances in 1992 to Obama’s in 2008. However, none of the quotes said anything about Clinton’s political background being insufficient. This is something both Clintons thought was an issue for Obama a few months ago, and different than what Republicans brought up during Bill Clinton’s candidacy. Obama is short on both! Life experience AND political experience. There’s no way to compare Clinton’s inexperience with Obama’s. Obama lacks twice the experience Bill lacked! Thanks to Ross Perot, Clinton over came the question of youth and slid into the white house. We’ll see if Obama overcomes the question of youth and political inexperience, and his radical socialist views on American society. |
Devyn, I can’t argue with that position. If you agree with McCain and not Obama, then of course you should go with McCain. As for Obama and taxes, I think he’s been pretty clear that he will raise taxes…on the wealthiest 5%. Maybe he doesn’t use those terms, but that’s what dropping the Bush tax cuts will mean. I really don’t know how much money that will raise, however. |
I don’t know, KLC #74, I’m beginning to think he’s actually another satirical creation of DKL, having a go at us all. |
KyleM, “This is something both Clintons thought was an issue for Obama a few months ago….” More accurately, they said it was an issue (because it was a perceived weakness they wanted to exploit). Whether they actually believe it or not is a different story. I have no idea how you measure “life experience.” Can you tell us what that means? |
Absolutely not. It’s a subjective opinion which can’t be measured. That’s like asking someone to measure how pornographic something is. |
BTW, I’m shocked anyone but the lying Republicans would say the Clinton’s might say something they don’t actually believe. |
“Sleep deprivation is torture, no matter who does it to whom.” Dan, where were you 30 years ago when my parents were waking me up to go to early morning seminary? “Sleep deprivation is one of the tactics that the CIA borrowed from the Soviets.” So that’s where they got it… |
…my parents, Soviet sleeper agents in suburban California. |
I would agree that seminary was torture. |
I call it Russian sleep torture. |
KyleM, but you could at least give an idea of what makes something pVrnographic, and why one thing is and another isn’t. If it is an entirely subjective opinion, then I don’t know why you would even mention it. You may as well say that Obama is not fit to be president because “he lacks joojeehogo”—’cause I have no idea what that is. |
Dan: If morality was a matter of relativity, then you would be right It’s not a matter of relativity. It’s a matter of your claim to have a monopoly on morality in this area. It’s nutty, and it makes you a fanatic. |
DKL, Then so be it. I am a fanatic on this issue. Let me put it to you this way, DKL, can reasonable people disagree on what is child abuse? Because let me tell you my father used “techniques” on me that he didn’t consider anything but normal, yet the end result is that he lost his family. I have no love in my heart toward him. Whether or not he agrees that what he did was child abuse, the end result was child abuse. |
KLC,
Are you telling me that your parents would sit there, watch you fall asleep and at the moment they saw that you entered deep sleep they reached over and woke you up. Then when you would go back to sleep, and fall again in deep sleep, they would wake you again? You mean to tell me they did this to you for days and weeks on end? That you never had more than 30 minutes of sleep at one time? This is sleep deprivation. It is nothing that college kids ever went through as they studied for their exams. This is horrible, horrible stuff. Let me quote here for you what Tom Malinowski wrote in the Washington Post a while back:
These are testimonies from Soviet prisoners. Read those. See if they were anything like what your parents did to you, because of course it isn’t. There is no comparison. You’d like to trivialize this because you can’t believe your own government does what it criticized the Soviets for doing a mere 50 years ago. Stalin is laughing in his grave right now. |
My day yesterday was job + grad school + commute=17 hours. Thus it is torture. Seminary was definitely torture. So was school. Early morning surfing was torture…no it wasn’t. Dan, you’ve proved on numerous occasions that your “morality” falls short. Give up the hypocricy, dude, lest you be ashamed like the rest of us. |
nasamomdele, you’re a weak pansy if you think that is torture. All you do is trivialize the real thing. |
Reasonable people do disagree about child abuse. Some people think that spanking is child abuse, and other people don’t. You’re making a logical error. You suppose that because there are acts which everybody agrees are child abuse that there are acts that nobody disagrees about. Your comments are littered with these kinds of logical errors. It’s what makes you intellectually immature. |
# 122 Dan, Don’t go there. That’s excruciating to read. Not so much that one feels sorry for your circumstance, but that one feels sorry for you for feeling that you ought to use such an experience as leverage in an argument. Shame on you, I say. # 123, It isn’t trivialized in defense of torture, it’s trivialized because you’re being outrageous. You think that there’s an argument for this here, and there isn’t. Such methods have been used by every nation since forever. You trivialize it by wielding such information as a moral sceptre. If your attitude were anything in line with some sort of moral desire for right in our country, let alone the world, let alone the cosmos, you would not be so vehemently opposed to Republicans, McCain, or anybody. You would see that there is some good in everyone and something positive in every platform (at least in this country). The devil is working on you just as much as he is on Dick Cheney. Has Obama talked about abolishing such methods? |
We’ll disagree DKL, but not because of what is reasonable. Waterboarding and sleep deprivation are against the law here in America (or at least they were before the Military Commissions Act). I’ll leave it at that because going down this road again is just not worth it. You don’t stand for American values DKL. You stand for communist values. You should not be proud of that. |
nasamomdele,
Huh, but it’s okay for McCain to talk endlessly about his days being tortured by the Vietnamese…have you said, “Shame on you Mr. McCain” yet? I don’t see it in print anywhere… You don’t care about me anyways, nasamomdele, what’s it to you what I use to make my points?
But no nation has codified it in law, nasamomdele! Don’t you see? Besides which, since when do we judge our morality based on what other nations do? I thought we judged it by a higher standard one that all nations should strive for.
I am vehemently against Republicans because you guys continue to fail to see. It doesn’t matter the good that Republicans have done at this point. Remove the cancer, nasamomdele. Remove it now! Repudiate the use of torture! Abolish it! |
Shame on McCain for talking endlessly about his torture at the hands of his enemies. I suppose the Geneva conventions are not codified to law… Was it only Republicans that enacted torture in our country? Have Democrats ever voted for it’s cessation? “Remove the cancer now!” I think my buddy recently showed me pictures of you at the D.C. metro holding a cardboard lightning bolt and sporting a blue beard screaming that. |
Speaking of watching something the way men watch sports, Football season starts in 40 minutes! |
Late to the conversation, but… There was a Greek temple thing? Where? |
(Anyone?) Back to substance (?): B.OBAMA has a terrific advantage over McCain; he doesn’t have to apologize for $10B / month spend in Iraq… the DNConvention was pulled off as well as it could be considering the Hillary/Obama primary split that was almost a pure 50/50 outcome, That’s the Headline. |
Dan, you’re right, my parents never did that to me. My first son, however did that to both my wife and me for the first two years of his life. I guess he was just a Republican from the womb… |
Devyn, Al Gore is speaking right now and he reminded us that there was another president whose experience consisted of several years in his state legislature and one term in Congress. He turned out okay I think. That president’s name is Abraham Lincoln. Just FYI. |
nasamomdele,
Um, the Geneva Conventions was ratified by the Senate, if I recall correctly. That means it is, based on the wording of the Constitution, the Law of the Land of the United States of America. So is the UN Convention Against Torture, which was also ratified by the Senate. Both are the Law of the Land.
Nope. I haven’t been to DC since June 2006. But I am amused at the false caricature. |
Dan, Abraham Lincoln’s administration instigated a civil war that killed 600,000 American, unconstitutionally suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus, ran prisoner of war camps that killed more than 18% of their prisoners — the worst in American history. Lincoln makes George W. Bush look like a saint, and his prisoner of war camps made Guantanamo look like a Hilton. Lincoln was the classic divider — so much so that he had to resort to military force to unite. His presidency was an absolute disaster, and he was emphatically not prepared to execute the war that he pushed onto the country. If Obama is going to be a Lincolnesque figure, then I fear for the future of our Republic. |
OK–I am watching the parade of generals and admirals that endorse Obama right now (on the “Greek” set, that does not bother me a bit) and they are all in suits. Why? Are they not allowed to wear uniforms? Might they have chosen not to? It seems likely that a similar group at the RNC would be in uniform…. Also, I have seen a few taunts about Obama’s relatives living in “shacks” on this thread. I know Rush Limbaugh regularly refers to Obama’s family living in “huts.” I think this is VERY ugly rhetoric, attempting to at least remind the public that Obama has POOR relatives in FOREIGN countries (as if that was something to be ashamed of) and more likely to somehow link Obama to the PRIMITIVE and AFRICAN, again, as if that is something shameful. Very disappointing. |
ESO, The reason these generals are not wearing their uniforms is that the Democratic party (unlike the Republican party) adheres to the strict guidelines that military personnel not wear their uniforms in a political event. DKL, It wasn’t Lincoln that instigated the war. It was the South. I wrote up a big post about it over a year ago. Read it if you like. It’s funny how today’s Republicans have turned against their president and now side with the South. Lincoln must be turning in his grave. |
Absolutely not. It’s a subjective opinion which can’t be measured. That’s like asking someone to measure how pornographic something is. I don’t have to measure it. I know it when I see it. |
Early morning seminary isn’t torture. Having a daily paper route BEFORE early morning seminary is torture. |
Seriously … who cares what a party stood for 150 years ago? Parties change with political shifts. I actually don’t think it’s worthwhile judging parties for anything older than 20 years, and judging candidates for anything older than 5 years. And had I been 18 in 1970, I’m sure I would have moved to Canada. |
queuno,
I did that too. That’s why I think they’re sissies for boohooing early morning seminary like that. |
ESO: I have seen a few taunts about Obama’s relatives living in “shacks†on this thread. I know Rush Limbaugh regularly refers to Obama’s family living in “huts.†I think this is VERY ugly rhetoric, attempting to at least remind the public that Obama has POOR relatives in FOREIGN countries (as if that was something to be ashamed of) and more likely to somehow link Obama to the PRIMITIVE and AFRICAN, again, as if that is something shameful. Very disappointing. I emphatically disagree. What’s ugly is imputing those kinds of motives. Living in squalor is something that people should be ashamed of — even if it’s not their choice — the idea being that one should get out of squalor; that’s why they call it squalor. Mexican’s who earn minimum wage in the US send money home to help their family. Every year, tens of thousands of Americans sacrifice safety and comfort to help improve the lot of third-world sufferers that they don’t even know. Democrats allege that Republicans don’t care about the poor of the world — that’s one of their big things, one of their big ugly things. The fact that Obama’s brother lives in a third world shack is not just some ugly fact about primitive Africans. Democrats tell their stories about how “a vote for Obama is a vote to help this child who had bad health care” or “a vote for Obama is a vote to help this family that’s upsidedown in their mortgage” or “a vote for Obama is a vote to help this man who is unemployed because his job was sent oversees.” It’s a constant parade of the crippled, poor, and unfortunate being exploited to manipulate us into feeling good about Democratic wealth redistribution. It’s ugly and hypocritical to fault Republicans for mentioning that Obama’s brother lives in 3rd world squalor. I don’t listen to Rush, so I didn’t know he made such comments. Good for him! |
Devyn, I find your logic refreshing. I suspect many Democrats will follow similar reasoning, even after tonight’s performance at the stadium. One thought on the Clintons and the convention. Their joint performance (on separate days, of course) was masterful political theater. Hillary, while getting people excited about Obama, stopped short of enumerating specific points in his defense…and failed to reverse or even soften any of her criticisms of him during the primary. Bill, by contrast — no longer running for public office and thus not vulnerable to flip-flops — was able to disingenuously reverse his comments even from the previous week. I suspect they Clintons will be proven right, and that she will be set up for her last shot in 2012. |
DKL–read the article you linked to and tell me where it describes his brother’s house. It does not. Nor does it have a picture. Having lived for three years within ten miles of that exact village, I guarantee you that no one there would describe that residence as a shack or a hut. I am positive the brother lives in a fine home. I know that village: the article describes this brother’s mode of transport as driving a car, which makes him wealthy, he owns an electronics shop, which also indicates wealth, and he works in the US for a few months a year. He must be very well off. Most Kenyans cannot even afford a passport, let alone plane tickets and a visa. So you assume he lives in squalor because he is an African? That seems very problematic. I am sorry you think “living in squalor” is shameful. Thinking that people should be ashamed of being born poor is like saying ugly people should feel ashamed of the way they look. Ridiculous. [Of course I realize that wealthy and good-looking people such as yourself may have a hard time empathizing with the poor and ugly--not that Obama's brother is either one]. |
ESO, I linked to an article on the wrong brother, Malik Obama, copying the wrong URL from my google search. I intended to link to an article on George Obama. Here’s an article that says he lives in a shack. Here’s another that specifies that his shack is 2 meters by 3 meters and lives “on less than a dollar a month.” I think it’s interesting that you equate living in squalor with living poor. Most American poor only live in squalor when they choose too — most of them are overweight and have telephones and VCRs. There’s no shame to living poor, but to live in squalor means to live in conditions marked by filthiness and degradation. When people find themselves is squalor, for whatever reason, personal shame is the natural, human response. Mentally healthy people do not choose to live in squalor. |
You are the one who brought up squalor. I have lived in a house just as the one George lives in and on less than a dollar a day, (if it really says less than a dollar a month, I believe that is a mistake) as the vast majority of Kenyans do. It is their life and they do not refer to it a squalor–that was you. I just don’t see any reason to ridicule the way someone’s sibling lives. |
ESO: I have lived in a house just as the one George lives in and on less than a dollar a day. I realize that you chose to live in a 3rd world country to serve a higher purpose, and that meant accepting certain housing conditions. But when you were no longer under the constraints you chose by virtue of your service, and were able to make a freer choice, you decided to live in a pretty standard suburban American house. ESO: I just don’t see any reason to ridicule the way someone’s sibling lives. I explained this as clearly as I can #143. You took issue with the facts that I presented about the brother, because I’d inadvertently linked to the an article on the wrong brother. But I don’t see any other objection to comment #143. |
there sure is alot of hate here. The columnbs behind Obama are there as a homage to MLK’s I Have A Dream speech which took place 45 years to the day. I listen to Obama and I am uplifted. Next week will be all doom and gloom. But some people like that |
ladybug, your prediction of gloom sounds more like hate than anything I’ve read here (well, anything beside Dan’s comments…) |
“Next week will be all doom and gloom.” Funny, Al Gore sure brought up a lot of doom and gloom. Oh, but Democrats aren’t fear mongers, I forgot. |
Early morning seminary isn’t torture, early morning paper routes aren’t torture. Do I have to repeat Dan’s sweepingly absurd statement again? “Sleep deprivation is torture, no matter who does it to whom.” So any parent that has forced a child out of a sound sleep for any reason, seminary, paper route, breakfast, is guilty of torture according to Dan. |
DKL–are you suggesting that Obama ought to be supporting George? Is that the reason it was brought up, that it ought to be a shame on Obama one of his father’s other son is poor? |
ESO, yes. Just to recap:
If Obama wants to make a showpiece of his support for America’s poor and disenfranchised, most of whom he’ll never meet, he should start by helping people in his own family. |
I would not venture into another family’s personal affairs, but I could understand why Obama not feel a special allegiance to the other families his father abandoned him for. And reading between the lines of the article you supplied, it sounds a lot like George is a typical ne’er do well, likely involved in substance abuse, and, not having contact with his own mother, a runaway or perhaps former abuser of his family. Perhaps that sounds like a stretch, it was just the impression I got from the article. I would suggest that the other sibling you had erroneously linked to before would be in a MUCH better position to help George (understanding the culture, having physical access to him, and not having been abandoned by the mutual parent). |
It’s not Barack Obama’s fault that he was born to a couple of lousy people, but it got pretty annoying to hear one convention speaker after another talking up his great heritage. At least no one ever tried to go on and on about what a great father Bill Clinton had. |
ESO, I think that your “personal family affairs” shield would protect Obama as a legislator, a judicial nominee, or a cabinet member. But once you run for President, you lose that shield. I’m not saying this is right. It’s just the way things are on both sides. You have prominent democrats like President Carter can say that McCain is “milking” his POW experience. It won’t due to claim that a multimillionaire presidential candidates can’t be held accountable for his treatment of siblings who live abroad it poverty. In any case, we can argue about whether his is a “personal family affair,” but it’s beside the point. Our discussion about this matter was prompted by your assertion that I was participating in racism and ugliness by making quips about Obama’s relative living in a shack. I take this latest turn of your argument to concede that your initial assertion was incorrect. |
# 157 John, It seems like it might play better to say that he is self-made, which I think he is. But then he might not get a house in some Connecticut communities… |
ESO: sounds a lot like George is a typical ne’er do well, likely involved in substance abuse, and, not having contact with his own mother, a runaway or perhaps former abuser of his family. You sound like a stereotypical, cold-hearted Republican here, because you are saying he’s suffering because of his own choices. Liberals tend to cast such problems as diseases and syndromes — they’re never the result of one’s own choices — and parade tragic stories to manipulate us into supporting their government programs. The warm-hearted liberal should drop everything and rush to Africa to help him get his life aright. I could understand it if you said something like, “He seems fiercely independent and is unwilling to accept any help as he struggles to get through this period of his life and get back on his feet.” But your assertion that he is where he is because of his own problems implies that Obama isn’t obliged to help him. This seems to violate King Benjamin’s counsel against blaming the poor for the position that they’re in. Can I get you on record as saying that people who suffer from the disease of addiction and have abuse-related problems do not deserve our help? |
My experience is that lack of government interference simply means you are going to be interfered with by whoever has the biggest stick. |
Going back to one of your original comments, I support waterboarding 100%, we have no other choices in many cases. To see it is driving a wedge between our political parties ia a little upsetting http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/13/waterboardings-wake-widening/ but hopefully thigns will get worked out!! |
I always get waterboarding and wakeboarding confused… |
I am confused about the waterboarding and wakeboarding confused,what it means really? |
pressure WASHING… not pressure cooking… what am I thinking? |