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My father-in-law was involved in Dialogue’s creation, and he served as a mission president. So I don’t think there’s a connection. Obviously my case study is statistically significant. |
Statistically speaking, you have a better chance of making the NBA than becoming a GA, I think. |
I’d say you’re in good company, Devyn. I recall my second husband being very concerned about his church career since his father was a stake president. That family crucified each other in the name of religion. |
Queuno – I don’t think there is any correlation at all, but some people do think so unfortunately. Anne – I must say I am NOT concerned about my church career, but fascinated by those who are. |
We had a GA tell us once that the most common letter received by the 1st Presidency is one requesting service to be a Mission President. They often speak of both their church callings as well as professional history and how well they could support themselves for the 3 years. He said none of them ever get called. |
Only a sucker for punishment or s serious ego case would desire to be a Bishop, SP, and then MP/GA. Most of us like me have to much already with work, kids, and callings to have any desire to try and pursue a church career. |
Tim (5) – There’s an anecdote about this in Pres. Kimball’s bio. When calling someone to be a mission president, he commented on the file in his desk of letters from “volunteers”, and he said, “we call people who don’t really want to go”. I find the most interesting callings are not part of the church career path. As Ferris might say, if you don’t take the time to stop and look around, you might miss something. |
Tim – I am amazed that someone would write a letter requesting a MP calling – that is psychotic… Bbell – agreed completely – I have enough to do and am happy in the Nursery. |
Tim (5): Wow. That is amazing. I guarantee most if not all of those letters are from Church members in Utah. One downside to having so many Church members in one place is the social hierarchy element people start imputing to Church service. Last Sunday, a counselor in our bishopric said, “When I was promoted to the bishopric…” He stopped abruptly after realizing what he had said and was very embarrassed. |
I happened to be thinking today about how that dirty word “class” impacts nearly everything we try to say and do in this life. This thought popped up in a completely different context from the one Devyn S. describes here; but after reading this post, my other thought would be that Devyn’s friend gets it just about right, except for the part about “stay[ing] out of controversial issues.” Is it not the case that our “irritation” with the lower orders stems mainly from their dependence on us to resolve “controversial issues” in such a way as to spare them the hard work involved in making such “resolution” possible? My guess is that nearly every one of us here already possesses the requisite talent to build a successful “career” in any church. As far as Devyn’s post is concerned, my takeaway is that he believes “leadership” trumps crass “careerist” instincts. I tend to agree with that sentiment. And it leads me to wonder: have our brighter Mormon lights slipped into a mode of thinking that too easily dismisses the rank-and-file LDS who’ve been caught up in the Sturm und Drang of the moment? If they lack leadership, have you provided it? After all, you are the acutely cognizant lieutenants in all of this. And in all of this, I’m guessing you’ve read your Karl von Clausewitz and know the score. It’s the lieutenants who win the wars, and it’s the lieutenants who sound the retreat, so that the generals and their fanclubs can live to fight and cheer another day. |
No, I understand, Devyn, I meant you’re in good company with those whose “church career” would be de-railed by thinking outside the box. |
Ah, Devyn, I knew someone before long was going to tout his pleasure with nursery service. “I don’t need no fancy visible callings. Serving the least of the little lambs is what I want because, you see, I’m a true humble disciple.” The one calling I dread, and I know it will hit me some day, is ward mission leader. |
annegb: Was it you who said that if you use enough cuss words around the bishop you can avoid high profile callings? re: mission presidents. My understanding is that stake presidents submit recommendations or nominations for mission presidents. I love one comment that quoted a former MP, I read somewhere on the bloggernacle: “Being a mission president (in a 3rd world country) is like camping out with 100 priests for 3 years.” I think the most important callings are: 1. nursery and primary A stake only needs 10 or so bishops at a time, 10 or so EQ presidents at a time, 10 or so RS presidents at a time. But a stake really needs 500 good home teachers and 500 good visiting teachers at a time. |
“re: mission presidents. My understanding is that stake presidents submit recommendations or nominations for mission presidents.” I believe it’s a recommendation from someone “above” them, for lack of a better term. If it’s a SP being recommended, it’s done by the Area Authority and so on. |
The best calling I ever had was nursery accompanist. It made me feel very useful and had the following advantages: 1. No weekly preparation. I’ll always remember it fondly… |
I’m not really into Dialogue or Sunstone, but if subscribing to them would keep me from being RS President or my husband bishop then I will order it. |
If you really want a church “career” move to an area far away from the centralized church; a place with few members and/or a struggling branch or ward. Doesn’t matter if you speak the language. If you go to church every week, you’ll get a “big” calling but quick. When I lived in Spain, a young family from Finland moved into our ward. The father was there to study at a massage therapy school and didn’t speak a word of spanish. But, he and his family faithfully went to church every week, and in a couple weeks time we were helping set him apart as the ward mission leader. He probably went on to EQ president after I left. There was talk of it. |
There are plenty of recommendations for MP that come from SPs. I know of several brethren who were never more than a high councilor (if I might step into hierarchical language for moment) who were called as an MP. I doubt that in every case, a GA ever knew their name beforehand. |
Good post, Devyn. Our church has a culture that makes it customary to disclaim a desire for prestigious callings but then tends to hold up those who receive such callings as the pinnacle of righteousness, and our church has developed a special language for saying that we have ambition without acknowledging the ambition; e.g., one might say, “I’d love to experience the blessings of being a [insert calling here]“. The bottom line is that many people harbor a desire for big-ticket callings, and I think your roommate was merely saying what a lot of more circumspect people secretly think. Being a practicing atheist for many years cleansed me of many of the biases that I developed while growing up in the church. I think that it’s clear from the kinds of things that I’m prone to say in the ‘nacle that I’ve jettisoned any ambition of serving a higher calling. I’m perfectly happy to do whatever I’m asked, but do not want to be bishop, EQ president, etc., and frankly I’d be shocked and dismayed if I were asked to. (Feel free to take this as a customary disclaimer if you want to take as cynical a view of my intentions as I have of others’; I’ll merely note that the evidence makes my sincerity highly likely.) On second thought, there are some callings that are rewarding enough to warrant aspiration to. In my opinion, working with the youth is one of these. But I think that’s different. |
Two thoughts here: I once had a bishop who aspired to the position of ‘Bishop’ until he was in the High Council and told the congregation later what a spiritual thrill was to vote himself to be the next Bishop. Which he was. He was never a good Bishop. He was a talker and it got to where no one would ever go in to talk to him at any depth because between him and his wife, it was on the gossip avenues the next day. Two: I subscribed to Dialogue once. There are some interesting articles in there. I am not recommending that anyone subscribe to it. That’s personal. But I feel that in reading Dialogue, f o r s o m e p e o p l e, they would find it very easy to sway away from the church. As in anything else, you must use your brain, realize what you have been taught in life and have the testimony of faith to use the wisdom God gave each of us. The ‘gospel’ is true with the faith that we know it to be. The ‘church’ is made up of people. There is the difference. |
I think all sisters should be afraid that subscribing to Dialogue and Sunstone will disqualify them from being a bishop. |
Is there a “disqualification committee” in SLC to whom I can sent copies of my Sunstone and Dialogue subscription renewal forms? Just in case, of course. |
“If you really want a church “career†move to an area far away from the centralized church; a place with few members and/or a struggling branch or ward.” That’s me. We live in a ward with a regular attendance of just over 100 people. I’ve been EQ President and YM President, actually doing both for several months until a new EQ President was called. So, please, if you want to make a church “career move”, this is the place for you. |
It’s a special office called the Letter to the Editor, Salt Lake Tribune. Bona-fide, guaranteed, 100 %. Right or Left crank, is your choice |
John Mansfield, It used to be my most fondly remembered calling, until I was called as a scoutmaster. |
These positions that people aspire to usually mean more time away from their families. Who are these people that would prefer to spend nights and Sundays with ward members instead of their children? I aspire to callings that require an hour or so of preparation during the week and an hour or so of teaching on Sunday. That’s it. No meetings and no required outside contact with anyone. |
People who want Church calling should be cursed to have to fill them. I pity anyone who is a Bishop or Stake President. I’d never in a thousand years want that calling. |
To add, that’s not a slam on those callings and not in the least a slam on those who fill them. It’s a ridiculously demanding job that takes you away from what’s important (your family) and typically affects negatively your work. Then it adds in stress and exhaustion. And of course the kind of people who find their self-worth in terms of ‘class’ (with this being the closest equivalent in the Church) are not to be trusted. So anyone who wants to be Bishop probably shouldn’t be. So I’m somewhat joking about their being cursed to be such. Although it may open their eyes a might. |
If aspiring to be a bishop is wrong, where does that put our aspirations to eternal exaltation? “I would hate to be bishop. Just let me teach the nine-year-olds until I die and become a co-heir with Christ posessing all that the Father has.” |
ambition in the LDS society is Nothing New; Is there something more than words from the pulpit can do to extinguish it? |
A friend of mine who was a temple president told me that he insisted on pictures of the Savior in his office, not of the men currently heading the Church. I don’t remember growing up with pictures of President McKay all over, though I certainly knew what he looked like. When did people start putting photographs of the First Presidency etc. in their living rooms? Is this a fairly recent thing? Did somebody suggest it over the pulpit? I’m just curious. Not condemning the practice; just curious. |
#11 John – Funny, WML is the calling I most dread as well. May we both successfully avoid it… #12 Bookslinger – I agree with your ranking of the most important callings although I would expand Nursery to all Primay #15 RK – my subscription has worked so far :) |
#16 – Cameron Great point – when we moved to a struggling branch, we received more callings than we ever wanted, although we did have a great time and build some wonderful friendships in the process. Of course we spoke the language… #18 DKL – you hit that on the head “Our church has a culture that makes it customary to disclaim a desire for prestigious callings but then tends to hold up those who receive such callings as the pinnacle of righteousness, and our church has developed a special language for saying that we have ambition without acknowledging the ambition” I do think that those who make the disclaimer but harbor covetous calling feelings are fairly easy to root out – just watch their behavior… #19 Lucy – thanks for the comment and funny anecdote about the Bishop. As for Dialogue – I think that it provides a great outlet for people who have questions and can see that others have similar questions yet remain faithful. So I see it from the opposite perspective as you – of course I love Dialogue. |
#20 queuno – hmm good point…. #21 DavidH yes, same committee as the member faithfulness committee or whatever it was called in the 1990s to “watch” the liberals in the Church… Or you can post comments here :) #22 Tim J. been there done that – great experience, but will pass. good luck to you #25 jjohnsen – agree completely with you, but I do know some men who welcome time away from their families… #26-27. Clark – are you saying this because you secretly aspire based on DKLs comments above? :) #28 John Mansfield – now that is an interesting point. Not sure how to feel about that except you should serve where called and be happy with it #29. Margaret Young anytime I wonder about something like that I blame it on one of the brethren who probably made an off-hand comment in a talk somewhere and it became ingrained in the culture… |
John Mansfield and Devyn S. I share your dread for being called as WML, and was rather vocal about it to my wife last week. The bishop wanted to meet with me on Sunday, and guess who’s the new ward mission leader. Crap! |
When we went to Nauvoo, my wife stood up at the pulpit in the room in the Red Brick Store, where the RS was founded. She jokes that it’s as close to being RS president as she’ll ever get. Of course … I should send a copy of the photo to the bishop. |
I think that if you want a church career, you need to move to the Avenues in SLC. Those wards need some serious help… |
Queuno – ok now you are scaring me – good luck to you on that calling… The Avenues are that bad huh? |
I’m working on my Cover letter and Resume for Mission President right now. While I’m at it I think I’ll also write one for Elder’s Quorum President, Bishop, and Ward Mission Leader……….. I really enjoyed teaching our 14-17 year olds. There. Now I think all of my bases are covered. |
Can a church career be blemished by fouling out of stake basketball games? Funny story: On the mission I was ZL and had a phone conversation with a particularly cocky elder from a wealthy family in Texas. It went like this: Him- “Edler Nasamomdele, why would you choose Elder W to be DL and not me?” ME- “Because I think he’s all that and a bag of chips.” ME- “Why do you want to be ZL so bad?” That strapping young man went on to be AP and soon after became the only AP to be fired as AP. |
queuno, you’re usually one of the most sensible ‘nacle denizens … until you get on your anti-Avenues kick. We’ve got *plenty* of terrific leadership. We do need a great many more people willing to give talks, clean the chapel, do home/visiting teaching, take care of the hospital assignments, and in general fill the no-glory roles. Avenues wards are wonderful. We’re struggling because we’re aliens in our own neighborhood, but good leadership is not one of our struggles. |
If you don’t want a “high profile” church calling, grow a beard. I saw it work for a relief society president once. |
Devyn, You’ll never make SP, let alone MP or GA, if you read those publications. Or, if you wear nonwhite shirts to Church. Or, if you listen to Elton John. Don’t squander your foreordination! |
“You’ll never make SP, let alone MP or GA, if… you listen to Elton John.” I don’t know which I would dread more, becoming a Stake President or listening to Elton John. Fortunately, I am fairly certain that neither will happen in my lifetime. |
One of the virtues of blogging is the fact that it might make you radioactive for certain types of callings that, be honest, you really don’t want. I have a post tucked away entitled “Why I think Gay Polygamous Unions should be solemnized in the Temple, and Why it’s a Shame my Non-Mormon Friends Can’t Come” which I plan to drag out the first hint I get that I’m being considered for Scoutmaster or Seminary Teacher. AB |
But seriously, I believe that large swathes of the active LDS membership firmly believe that the Celestial Kingdom has a special tier reserved for those with the right church resumes. Kinda like box seats at a choice sporting event. The fact that such notions cannot be supported scripturally is irrelevant. AB |
Ron – good idea – shoot out those letters and permanently black list yourself… Nasamomdele – I guess there is some justice in this world Dan E – I do the no tie thing and the nonwhite shirt thing as well as my part of rebellion. I kind of like Elton John so I don’t see that as a problem – but something like Barry Manilow, now that is a problem… Come on Kuri – you know you like Elton John – he is hot! |
Aaron Brown – great point on blogging – I guess I should have a post similar to yours in my back pocket…. I also agree that many in the Church see a definite heirarchy and see a more advanced calling as a sign of more advanced righteousness. |
I know people who take their church career seriously. Two words aggressive and competitive describe them best. I seriously have a friend who was warned by someone in her ward that IF she went to a Sunstone Symposium, “to make sure you use a fake name cause the Church tracks such things and you’ll never be a RS President otherwise” :) Other people warned me that if I presented at Sunstone I could kiss both my husband’s and my church career goodbye… great was my response! |
JA Benson – I have heard those things before too – if doing something that I feel good about doing (as long as it is not sinning) “hurts” my ability to get a calling, then so be it, I probably would not have enjoyed the calling anyway… |
#48 Devyn Amen brother! |
If you don’t want callings, write an outlandish post on your blog, and sign your real name. Then anonymously snail-mail a print out of it to your bishop and SP. |
My relative says in her view, the best way to avoid big callings is to prominently display a campaign sticker for a left-leaning candidate on your bumper sticker and make sure that you a) park in a highly visible spot in the church parking lot on Sundays and b)make sure that EVERYONE knows that that is YOUR car! |
Shortly after I returned from my mission, I overheard two coeds at BYU. “How’s your missionary doing?” “Not too well. He’s already been out six months and he’s only a district leader.” I wanted to run screaming from the room while pulling my hair out. Believe it or not, that’s a true story. I’m a former Dialogue and Sunstone subscriber, I teach evolution, I have an Obama sticker, I sometimes wear colored shirts to church, and I once wrote a letter to Boyd K. Packer and told him that I disagreed with his conference talk. Is that enough to scuttle my “church career?” |
12. Bookslinger Yes, stake presidents do this from time to time. Usually its in response to a letter from Elder Packer asking for recommendations. He asks for someone who you would trust your own children with. But then area presidencies and other GAs also recommend mission president and in places like latin America or the Philippines they have a neo-rotating system for Institute Directors so one goes out and is replaced by the guy returning from a mission. The thing is that in Utah/Idaho there would be an oversupply of qualified candidates who one day start to ask themselves why the lord leaves then in primary or YM. That’s when things get tricky for them and the testing starts. |
I once wrote a letter to Boyd K. Packer and told him that I disagreed with his conference talk. Hehehe. I know a former MP who wrote a letter to JRH after a conference talk picking out a point of emphasis and offering an alternate idea. Two months later JRH invited him in and told him to “get his affairs in order”. |
Ardis - Time to come clean. I *heart* the Avenues. I’ve priced a house a couple of times there. We have lots of family in the avenues. In fact … should the Angel Moroni ever convince me to leave The Great State of Texas for Utah, about the only place I could stand to live would be the Avenues or the East Bench. But seriously – I’ve been to my mother-in-law’s ward, and there is a serious, serious lack of active members in her ward. I love the Avenues… but there is a serious dearth of membership and leadership in some of the wards. We have couples from the Avenues who’ve moved into our area in Texas, and they report the same thing. At any rate, I love the Avenues. |
I routinely wear a blue shirt to Church and have facial hair, and so far, I haven’t been called into a bishopric. I’m not sure there’s a causal relationship, though. I’ve cited without attribution the Bloggernacle occasionally during an EQ lesson, and look up to see wry smiles from certain quorum members (one who after the class showed me on his iPhone the exact BCC post I’d lifted my quote from). Maybe I should publicly cite the ‘nacle and see if I get asked to guest teach again soon. |
But seriously – I’ve been to my mother-in-law’s ward, and there is a serious, serious lack of active members in her ward. I love the Avenues… but there is a serious dearth of membership and leadership in some of the wards. We have couples from the Avenues who’ve moved into our area in Texas, and they report the same thing. I went to bed, but couldn’t stop thinking about whether I’ve misphrased my comment. I have no doubt that Avenues wards are being led appropriately. But there’s not a lot of depth, particularly in the 20s and 30s crowd, that one needs in a ward. My MIL characterizes it as “a lot of people who could be entering the repose of their life doing work that a younger generation might do” and “people doubling and tripling up on callings and in so doing, not being able to spend the time on each like they could”. We’ve witnessed one ward grabbing visitors to help staff primaries. I dunno. I’ve been sufficiently threatened/promised that if we were to move there, I would find myself in a bishopric in short order. But since my SLC-raised wife has decided that she hates the snow … and while the cost of living in the Avenues is sufficiently prohibitive … I guess I don’t need to worry about finding out. (My MIL thinks that they should initiate further consolidation in the Avenues wards to help with what she perceives to be a crisis. In their old stake, there was some limited ward consolidation and the intensely bitter feelings from the membership that felt that history was against them led their stake president to say that he would never again initiate consolidation. The result is that there are some wards with barely 250 members in them, and buildings with excess capacity. Constrast that with where bbell and I live, where you don’t get a seat in any of the 3 overflow areas if you’re not 5 minutes early to sacrament meeting, and we’re inventing callings, a la BYU, and where we drive by new Church construction and dream of the day they might split a ward. For the moment, we’ve taken in all of the economic refugees into our ward that we can ever handle.) |
All this talk about the callings gives me the willies. For one thing, there are those who think that a prominent (visible) calling is a sign of personal righteousness. That is very obviously wrong. To read someone’s post on a blog or message board saying that I have had such and such callings in the Church and I think that… (in order to give “authority” to your brand of wackiness) Then some have theories of how you “avoid” callings. I know a former stake president who was called and then told to shave. I have had some visible callings despite facial hair. Finally the fuzz had to go as I was set apart as a missionary again. Perhaps a lot of what’s been said is a “Utah” thing? Anyway, I wish people would seriously support their bishops and SP’s, because it really is a grind. Usually people who buck for those callings don’t get them as far as I have seen, although it would serve them right. But of course mistakes happen… |
Before I started loosing my hair I liked it a bit shaggier that the “missionary standard”. In my mid 30′s I had a GA tell me that with my hair that long I would never be called as a bishop. I don’t think I cut it for another 6 months. |
#51 Polly – good idea on the bumper sticker… #52 Left Field – a letter to Packer – that should be sufficient – wow you have kahonas. |
Queuno, Nasamomdele, |
A friend told me that some people move to Utah because they have GAS – General Authority Syndrome. In other words, they feel that there is a possibility they could one day be called as a General Authority, and Utah would be the place to be when that happens! |
#60: Actually, I got a very nice response. He didn’t really agree with my perspective, but he said he appreciated the courtesy and spirit in which I wrote, and he asked the Lord’s blessing on my work and teaching in biology. It’s not everyone who has an apostolic blessing on their teaching and research in evolution. |
Queno, Do not bet on the facial hair thing keeping you out of callings here in TX. At one point a couple of years ago our EQP, HPGL, and both Bishopric counselers had facial hair. I also wear colored shirts about 50% of the time and never seem to lack for callings either ward or stake (unfortunatly sometimes). With all the BIC pioneer types around here our new YM’s president is a fairly recent hispanic convert who favors red/black shirts and wears facial hair leading all the BIC pioneer kids in white shirts. So do not bet the farm on your theory. |
bgood – now that is a funny – well good think they are all headed to Utah then… Left Field – good for you. I am surprised he wrote back nicely. Did he realize he was referring to someone who teaches evolution? |
bbell – I’m not holding my breath, either way. I’ve had a couple of stake callings, despite my colored shirts and facial hair. Perhaps knowing our SP and being friendly with him for over a decade was a bad “career” move… As for ward size, I’m hoping that maybe your ward and my ward and maybe one of the others next to us gets carved up and a new ward created soon. Soon, please. Pretty please. It’s hard to seriously jockey for a particular calling when you’ve got over 40 elders in an EQ meeting, half with nothing to do at Church other than (not) do their home teaching. ;) |
I am pretty convinced based on anecdotal evidence that SP’s and Bishops tend to call those whom they know and trust. The pattern in our stake is stake calling YM’s, HC, and then bishopric. So your friendship with the SP will eventually get you placed somewhere that involves. I seriously think we need a stake realignment. My kids best friend lives within walking distance of our house and is in a keller ward in a whole nother stake. Are you in the Woodland Springs ward? |
Your description of Avenues demographics is true, queuno — there are only five wards total, one of which is young single adults and only one of which has children age 3 and up, and we skew very, very heavily toward age 70 and above. And we’d be lucky to get 250 to any of our ward’s sacrament meetings. But that isn’t a dearth of leadership, it’s a lack of members, especially young parents willing to raise families in small houses with small yards. We have a few dozen young couples in our ward interning at the hospital or attending the university, but they move elsewhere to raise their families. I can think of no one in my ward who doubles up on callings, except for home and visiting teaching. Not a one — in fact, we have two SS classes, and those and RS, and I think EQ and HP, teaching callings, and all the musical assignments are split in order to give a few more people a chance to something … anything. (Organists play once a month; choristers lead less often than that.) I can *say* that I’m a RS teacher, but in reality I teach only four times a year. Not enough of a calling to make me feel useful or involved, but it’s all there is, without depriving other people of even that much. You could staff a whole Primary with the three excess organists, five excess choristers, three excess RS teachers, two excess SS teachers, and whatever duplication there is in the priesthood quorums, without anybody needing to have a second calling. I don’t understand your MIL’s ward’s need to double and triple. /my provocation to threadjack |
#65: That’s a good question. I just pulled the letters out of my files. At the time (20 years ago) I was a graduate student at a state university. Although I did not use university letterhead, I did give my professional address and mentioned that I did research in evolution. The topic of teaching did not come up in my letter, though he probably surmised from my address that I was also teaching Biology, and given the topic of my letter, it would not have been a stretch for him to have figured out that my teaching probably would have included evolution. But he was aware that I did research in evolution and that I had no problem reconciling evolution with my religious beliefs. My comment on an apostolic blessing was somewhat tongue in cheek, but he did close his letter with “May the Lord bless you in your work and in your teaching of biological sciences.” It was in fact a very gracious letter. |
Left Field – I am surprised that in the late 1980s you received such a positive letter as that was just a few years before the crackdown at BYU in the early 1990s. Well, that certainly makes me feel better about him, I have always felt he was very anti-science. |
Dan E. said: “Don’t squander your foreordination!” Classic. JA Benson said: “Other people warned me that if I presented at Sunstone I could kiss both my husband’s and my church career goodbye… great was my response!” I think you meant, ‘”great!” was my response’, but you may be waxing Monsonian (“Dieter asked if I had ever seen the inside of a cockpit, and great was my response…”) As for myself, I covet teaching the YM and seminary, and I am presently happily teaching early-morning seminary. I love it, and the waking up early is worth it. Ward clerk was OK, but I wouldn’t want to do it here, because this ward doesn’t like the clerks to work during church meetings. That was the best perk of being a clerk! /threadjack/ I do part of my seminary lessons during Sunday School. I told one of my home teachees, in jest, that I don’t need to go to Sunday School, because the temple recommend question only asks about sacrament and priesthood. This woman said, “That’s not true! It asks if you attend all your meetings!” (Although I was kidding, the interview does only ask about sacrament and priesthood mtgs) It turns out, my wife just had an interview and they only asked her about sacrament meeting. Interesting… |
I had a boyfriend once carefully explain that if we were going to be serious, then he needed to be assured of my spirituality, because he fully expected to be called as a General Authority some day. TO that end, it was making him nervous that I had some questions. Stupid git. Special place in hell, I swear. |
Adam – I agree that youth callings are wonderful. agreed that skipping SS and EQ are two of the perks of clerking – take those away and what is left? A lonely Tuesday night in the Clerk’s office? Katie – nice – so did you marry him? |
The only person I ever heard talk about a “church career” is now inactive and divorced after having served as bishop. He was offended when (while serving as EQP) he was called to serve on the High Council. He was aspiring to be called as bishop. He was later called as bishop. His lust for a “high” calling in the church was an extension of his lust for worldly wealth and position. He lost faith after not becoming fabulously wealthy. I got fed up with the church ladder climbers on my mission. My MP was busy sucking up to missionaries whose parents he felt could help his church career. Must have worked, because he was called as a temporary 70, which fed his ego to no end. BTW Lucy #19- The High Council does not approve the calling of bishops. The SP recommends and the First Presidency approves. The other may be a practice from long, long ago or from a rogue SP, but it is not standard. |
OK #71 You are right, Mr Adam-Good-two-shoes-puncuation-police. You are going to have a hay day checking all my punctuation and spelling/typing mistakes :) |
Good post. My church career, of course, is in the toilet. (Like literally. I usually volunteer to clean the chapel on Saturdays.) |
Floyd – funny, I knew someone like that as well and they no longer participate in the Church either after being offended that no one saw their capabilities to lead… Matt – “the last shall be first and the first shall be last” or “the toilet cleaners shall be first and the pulpit speakers last” |
A couple of points… 1. A member of my most recent bishopric wore a beard and coloured shirt. He was still called. He is an alternative-minded type of man, and his wife is VERY liberal (yet she is the YW president). The Lord calls whom he calls. Many were surprised, yet these good people serve well. 2. I really don’t care what calling I have in the church. So long as the Lord has need of me I’ll serve there. I’ve had several “high profile” callings. I didn’t ask for them. I was called, and I served. I’ve had several “low profile” callings. I didn’t ask for them either. I was called, and I served. Quite frankly I don’t give a hoot where I serve. But I’ll say yes whatever it is. That doesn’t make me an aspirer or a church careerist. It makes me someone who loves the Lord, has trust in his servants, and simply wants to live a faithful life. |
“In my experience, I have met men who aspire for callings and some who seem to even lobby for certain callings. To them, I say “you deserve every calling you get…†Awesome summation to your post, Devyn. And I agree that anyone who craves the calling of MP is psychotic. Personally, I have come to feel grateful for any calling that does not require arriving (on Sundays) at the ward building before 9am. In general, I think all callings are a blessing – but some callings come with additional burdens and so it’s foolish to pine for them. |
JC – thanks for the comment – seems like a very reasonable approach to me – just do what you are asked – that is really all anyone should expect. Danithew – thanks – agree on some callings being more burden than blessing… |
My favorite calling ever came after a bruising year as YW pres., serving with a truly mentally ill counselor that apparently everyone else knew was a whack job, but no one thought to tell me. The girls were great, but she was wild. Anyhoo, after being emotionally chewed up and spit out, I got called to be nursery leader in primary. I seriously questioned the wisdom of the call. My kids were out of primary and I was in no hurry to go back to the pre-potty trained days. Within 2 weeks of the call, all the families with kids in nursery moved, and I ended up with one kiddo. His regular nap time fell during nursery. For almost a year, every Sunday we would eat a snack then head to the mothers nursing lounge to rock him the big comfy chair. God sanctioned my 2 hour “rest time”. It only ended when I was dumb enough to talk about it during a fast and testimony meeting. Lesson learned: when ya gotta good thing going, keep your mouth shut! (It was more than that ’cause within a month of my release a whole slew of new families with nursery kids moved in and I saw the blessing of my release. Heavenly Father does know what is best.) |
livin in zion – now that sounds like a great respite for you after a year of hell. I love God sanctioned naps. |
Living in Zion, why didn’t you fire her ass? |
It was an small ward, all the sane people were taken with stake callings and the Bishop said I couldn’t have them. He said he felt my pain, but that “there is a lack of sanity” in the remaining choices. I guess he felt I could have picked worse. What was interesting was the next YW pres. refused the job unless she could have the people with stake callings. They were released and put in YW. I was young and stupid and didn’t know you could give the bishop an ultimatum. Trust me, I won’t get stuck like that again! |
Anne – you crack me up – you can’t fire people in the Church, that is why people get stuck with “unique” individuals in your presidencies. For some reason, Church leaders are reticent to “fire” someone as they dont want to seem like they failed in their calling. I tend to agree with you – if you can’t hack it, then get out of the way… |
yeah but if we only ever call the people who are clearly qualified and experienced, then new and newly active members never get the experience they need. |
#88. Agreed. But, the teaching method in the church about how to do your new calling is often equivalent to throwing someone in the deep end of the pool and yelling “Swim!” |
I did not marry the aspiring general authority. He called off the wedding when he discovered I wasn’t planning on dropping the pre-med thing when we got married, even though he “thought I would, of course, give up all that after I had found a husband.” A week later he tried to recant, but I was giddy with newfound freedom and in that state where you wonder what on earth you were thinking in the first place. Last I heard, he was either in the bishopric of my step-sister’s ward with four kids, or else he had married, divorced, and married again and was living with his parents. It could have gone either way. |
Hey Devyn, google “kahuna” and “cojones”. I don’t know where you served a mission, but it wasn’t Hawaii or Spanish speaking. |
Katie P – good for you – sounds like you dodged a bullet. Snark – I know what cojones is referring to – I figured it sounded better than saying you have some serious balls for writing that letter, but I guess I just said it. I, however, did not know what Kahuna meant and know I do – thanks |
G’day everyone! Some great posts here folks! I live in a small ward in a small stake in Australia. Who cares where (which callings or auxilliaries) you have served in or are serving, as long as you have a willing heart, you are where you are needed! In one calling in particular (ward clerk attending Bishopric meetings) really helped me to further develop my testimony that callings are of the Lord. I witnessed on more than one occasion where the Bishopric had discussed who they thought was best to serve in a calling, and after praying about it at the meeting they were prompted to extend the calling to another person. So thanks for the opportunity to testify on your blog! Check mine out sometime |
I had a gf in college who was very worried about my GA prospects, since I seemed waffle-ish on abortion (I basically said that it was past time that we held candidates responsible for their abortion stances, that the country had other things to worry about than a single issue). Her dad was a paid minister for our church (a seminary teacher), grew up in the Zion curtain, and was a terrible student. She ended up dumping me and got pregnant after she got married, and later cited a memorable line (referring to her immediate pregnancy): “I don’t know how it happened…” I know what she thinks she meant to say, but it’s still funny… |
I mean, her dad was a seminary teacher, while SHE group up in the Zion curtain and was a terrible student. |
I was young and stupid and didn’t know you could give the bishop an ultimatum. My dear and sainted mother has pulled this every time she’s been given a president calling. It’s worked out in almost every case. |
I told one of my home teachees, in jest, that I don’t need to go to Sunday School, because the temple recommend question only asks about sacrament and priesthood. If Sunday School were a requirement, clerks would never be able to hold recommends, which would cause an interesting ripple in the space/time continuum… |
Love the posts here! I think we have all met some of the “aspirational leaders” in our travels in the church. The one thing alot of these people(on the whole, brethren) have in common is a desire to serve their egos more than serve their fellowmen. It is sad to witness, but it does happen, even here in good old Oz. I agree with the often quoted line “any man that aspires to be bishop deserves it” but you gotta feel for those that suffer under the leadership of a person whose motives are less than pure. My mother was telling me her new branch president is one such individual and by and large, the branch members are all miserable – they hope he catches the spirit of his calling soon… PS Vote 1 BruceR for Bishop (not!) hahaha |
Queuno – guess you aren’t GA material… I sure had my suspicions… I too get a kick out of those who seem baffled by their pregnancies after getting married… Bruce – thanks – we are glad you are here. I like the way you phrase serving their egos – it certainly spells it out as it is. I did not think about the aspiring issue from the member perspective – that would be miserable… |
Devyn: I had a ward member accuse me of not being consistent in my political views. My reply was that views were perfectly consistent with my views on life, but that if she was expecting me to fall into line with one of the Two Big Stereotypes, she would be disappointed (I also drew her ire when I resisted the effort to elevate Glenn Beck to Honorary GA Status). And I think there’s something incredibly fascinating to see where bishops come from these days; it’s definitely NOT the so-called careerist mold. I’ve known bishops who’ve come directly from the Primary, from Seminary, and from the high council. I’ve known a few who went from HPGL to bishopric to being the bishop. The 5-6 most recent bishopric councilors in our ward were clerks, and EQ counselors, and primary teachers, and high priest group leaders. Our current RS president used to be a “new member specialist”. The one before was a Sunday school teacher. Before that, a primary teacher. I know a primary president who was teaching the YM. I just don’t see how you can possibly “craft” a career within a ward to get “promoted” to a particular calling. Plus, there are some fascinating callings that are off the beaten track… |
Queuno – when you say two big stereotypes, I assume Dems and Reps. Glenn Beck as honorary GA – how could you not do so? Honestly, I have never watched anything he says since I really don’t care what he has to say. I think that it is stake/ward dependent as to where people come from. In some wards/stakes I have seen the leadership is consistently drawn from a single ward with all of the “successful” people. These tend to be the wealthier people and they all but ignore the “poorer” wards when it comes to finding leaders. I think you can craft a career to some extent by brownosing leader and serving in visible areas – it happens all the time. |
Joseph Smith called those men who aspired to callings “Great Big Elders”. |
the leadership is consistently drawn from a single ward with all of the “successful†people This might sound like I’m taking sides, but often wealthy wards with successful can afford to give up some of their strength. My parents have lived in the heart of AFC North country for almost 40 years. They were living in the “central” stake of a large stake. Said ward has the mission president, had the stake president for that stake for about 25 straight years (although not anymore) and generally had the most money, the best attendance, etc. Said ward was completely obliterated a couple of years ago — it is now part of 4 other wards. Most people are heartbroken. A former bishop has bitterly concluded that stakewide jealousy has succeeded in getting rid of “their” ward. However, the current stake leadership in that stake made it clear — they needed the strength of that membership to be distributed around the stake so that the stake could grow. My parents’ ward is probably an extreme case. But it’s pretty darn common — and justifiable — to go looking for stake leadership from “successful” wards, because they can handle the loss. If you, on the other hand, have a ward where 30% of the members are on welfare and are struggling to make it day by day, leaders in those wards are needed to save their wards. This, of course, assumes that there’s no difference in blessings in the Lord’s eyes between stake and ward callings… |
“central†ward, not “central” stake. |
Queuno – interesting example. In my stake, at one point, the entire SP, HC, and auxiliary presidencies were from one ward. The problem was two fold as I saw it – first, this ward was very wealthy and many members were absolutely clueless that the language units or poor English wards had challenges and issues that made volunteering at the Temple challenging during the day, for example. Or they could not figure out why the youth could not afford $200 for Youth Conference, etc. Second, how do we train leaders if we never give them a chance. So while it may be the easy road to use the strong members, I am not sure it is always the “right” road. |