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We live in a lower-income Orem neighborhood that is divided by transient young married couple either going to a married students’ ward or the local family ward. Our Bishop is fiercely against the married students’ ward and what it does to create a rift in the community. In that same sense, he is fiercely protective f the community- not just the local streets and schools, but of the congregation community. As “communal” as that may sound, I think it creates the right church atmosphere when people go and know everyone else’s strengths and weaknesses and quite a bit of their dirty laundry. The idea of being a community helps to diminish the boundaries and judgmental glares. I have been only a few places that have been business meeting-like. Thank goodness for blue-collar bishops and poverty. |
I too am against the Married Singles Wards. (oops. Did I just say that?) I meant Married Student Wards. My ward I’m in now is not a business meeting. I think our bishop really cares. |
I have to say that much of what you get out of any experience depends on what you bring to the table. Is every Sacrament meeting a home run spiritually? No, but every time I come to Sacrament meeting in the right frame of mind I am blessed to feel the inspiration of the Spirit. I presume that the above mentioned girl probably came with certain expectations. I also presume that a reverent, orderly meeting wasn’t what she was expecting/wanting. So what was quiet, reverent, or orderly may have been too restrictive for her expectations/desires. Orderly and reverent should not be mistaken for business-like. I will allow that a particular ward may head that direction (business meetings instead of worship services), but as for the Church as a whole, that’s a pretty hasty generalization. There is nothing wrong with reverent showings of emotions. Reverence is the key. I think there is a Primary song about that….. |
As someone who has attended business meetings in a wide variety of settings over the past 30 years, I couldn’t disagree more. And I suspect these bright young women have no clue as to what business meetings are actually like. I didn’t until I graduate from college and found myself having to attend them or even — shudder — organizing and running them. It’s a clever tagline, but (IMHO) is dead wrong. I’ve sat through my share of talks and lessons that either make me wince or put me to sleep (and probably given my share as well), but the dynamics, the baring of souls, and the presence of the Spirit are unlike anything I’ve ever encountered in a business meeting. ..bruce.. |
I have attended my share of horribly ineffective non-3-hour-block Church meetings that I wished could have been run as business meetings. Rambling, ineffective, and pointless meetings that sap your energy. In this example, I would question the level of business meeting experience of the group that Ann is describing and blow the comment off. |
If church were more like a business meeting, there would be better, and more frequent, refreshments. That said, I have been at many business and community meetings I felt would benefit from a Mormon conducting the meeting–we train them up pretty young to have an agenda and get through it. |
I’m ever the cynic, but our testimony meeting yesterday brought me to tears at one point (at the same time, I would have won at Testimony Bingo). |
If our meetings were like business meetings, everyone would have shown up 10 minutes late, fiddled with their Blackberries the entire time, took cell phone calls during the meeting, not paid attention, read their blogs and mail, and later would have snarked about how the divisional VP has NO business being in that position, and then would have started polishing their resumes. |
I actually think our meeting resemble New England Town Meetings more than business meetings. Votes and speeches, with the announcements, songs, prayers and sacrament done with a respectful informality that fits with the New England tradition (and our rather austere chapels–no stained glass, no high vaulted ceilings, no bleeding crucifixes, and, of course, no candles). It shouldn’t be surprising, given the background of our first members. I don’t think we ‘worship’ particularly well, it’s almost an unfamiliar concept, it doesn’t come naturally. All that pioneering–all those things to get done. I remember only a few things I’ve heard from 35 years as an adult attending sacrament meetings, but I remember how I feel most times and that’s pretty much why I keep going. But it is an acquired taste. |
If our meetings were like business meetings, everyone would have shown up 10 minutes late, fiddled with their Blackberries the entire time, took cell phone calls during the meeting, not paid attention, read their blogs and mail, and later would have snarked about how the divisional VP has NO business being in that position, and then would have started polishing their resumes. DW just read my comment and said that it basically does sound just like a business meeting, with the exception of polishing their resumes, we all head to the ‘nacle. |
That’s a little beyond the mark, don’t you think? While I often decry the habits of non-Christian behavior that Mormons can slip into, I think it verges on defamation to assert that Mormons of whatever gender or age are UNIQUELY cruel. |
Mormon youth are just as cruel as other youth, but they have unique ways to do it. |
Hmmm….I’ll start backward…. #11 & 12, I guess youths of other faiths can be cruel. My experiences hasn’t born that out; however, perhaps it’s southern Utah Mormon kids who are mean. Maybe it’s just my ward. There is quite of bit of exclusion. Maybe in the mission field where Mormons are the minority, the Catholic kids, or the Baptist kids are the stuck-up ones. Jim, I like your comment about “I don’t think that we worship particularly well.” Although, I wouldn’t like shrieking and rolling in the aisles worship. Maybe just a gentle guitar beat, “Thank you, Jesus” kind of worship. Everyone else who compared business meetings to church, crap, I forgot I hadn’t attended any business meetings. Maybe a few. In southern Utah. That are pretty much like church without the singing because we pray, too. Sam, I just feel so much resentment when I hear that argument….Sometimes I am in a more spiritual mood and it comes from within, but often, I’m tired and in need of spiritual nourishment to lift me. I can’t lift myself so I can respond to a meeting not intended to lift me but to preach to me. If that makes one bit of sense. I’m coming from a place of resentment, for sure. The young lady I quoted, not so much. I don’t even think she was all that curious. She just wanted to go to church and she’ll probably go to the Methodist Church next time. |
Interesting post Anne. I know many investigators have noted how boring our meetings and music are particularly those from evangelical backgrounds, but in the end as others have stated, the Spirit is what is important. |
I wonder if the girl (who said the LDS meetings were like business meetings) was actually complaining about a lack of food. It sounds like the other church meetings they have attended had actual meals. Food can create a more festive or home-like atmosphere. The other thing is that people are dressed up and the priesthood leadership wears business suits. So that would create a business-like feeling or an executive style feel to things. Perhaps at the other churches the girls have attended, the people are dressed in more regular, casual, everyday type of clothes. Also, our music is pretty muted. Organ and piano music with hymns – that about covers it. Again, I’m guessing that other church meetings the girls have attended have had music that is a little more modern or that uses a wider variety of instruments(?). |
Earlier this year I visited my Mom’s church. They had coffee brewing in their Sunday School school class. Smelling coffee in Sunday School was a unique combination of events. I have a separate LDS KJV Bible and an LDS Triple Combination, that I carry in unmarked scripture covers. Their SS teacher conjectured that I was a serious scripture reader since I had brought two bibles with me. :-) It was odd listening to their pastor. He sounded more like an employee than our clergy. They had hired him from out of town to get things going, revitalize the congregation, and grow their church. It was nice. I didn’t hear any doctrine that I had major disagreements with. But I’d still rather listen to a 2-minute youth speaker, and a bawling RS sister give talks than professional preachers. (I don’t know for sure, but I might rank the professional pastors slightly higher than some of the drab-and-drone high council speakers.) |
My inactive (though he would say “non member”) husband complains that Elders Quorum is too much like a business meeting and a private club for men (not the kind with girls in bikinis, just a “no girls allowed” thing). I don’t really understand what the problem is with being organized or having a class geared toward a specific gender (“Women’s Studies” is an accredited degree program at my alma matter). Personally I think having an order to meetings that you can depend on every Sunday is nice. I didn’t even know that whether or not to have some decided upon format for a church service was even a question until I started looking into discussions online about liturgy. If the Lord’s house is a house of order, I don’t see what the problem is with dealing with business in a worship meeting. The business is all church related and there’s no other way to take care of it other than having a seperate meeting at another time. And really… After 3 hours of church, the various activities during the week, and all of our other obligations, do we really need yet another meeting? |
#16 :) I’d think I’d wandered into an AA meeting. Which are actually quite spiritual meetings. As opposed to Mormon sacrament meetings. I bet you’re right, a professional clergyman would sound like a high councilor. I was thinking more along the line of a Pentacostal preacher, diluted, so that people wouldn’t think they were seeing someone in the throes of a seizure. Perhaps we could shoot for a happy medium. I’d say along the line of more leniency in the choice of music. That might set the tone and mediate the boring talks and the “business” of calling and releases. |
Annegb, I dont know about the leniency on music. I can see that going some scary directions. Why not just cut the meeting time down? |
Oh, I’m totally in favor of that. Totally. I’ve made it a matter of prayer. |
I need to record an MP3 or a video telling about some of the momentous book-placement moments. I think I would make it sound evangelical, without even trying to. After 3 miraculous coincidences in a row, sometimes up to 15 in a day, it does get wildly amazing, and it’s hard not to be excited when describing the events, kind of like how Ammon got carried away in Alma chapter 26. Bookslinger: the Jewish-Jesus-freak-evangelical-backslid-Mormon. |
:) yeah, that’s why we keep you around. . . |