Gordon Brown. You really have a problem with proofreading, don’t you.

On the other hand, that would ruin your stupid little joke about the Godfather of soul, so I guess you better leave it. Perhaps in the future you can write posts on Lynton Blair and Hilda Thatcher.

My view? Americans tend to not be so bright.
And we don’t like politicians who are extremely bright. We want ones we can relate to. Europe and Asia, on the other hand, put a lot of weight on intelligence.
So we’re set to vote for a journalist major and a war veteran who graduated at the bottom of his class…instead of a Harvard Law Graduate who was the editor of the Law Review.
That’s the reason the rest of the world likes Obama. And that’s why he’ll lose. He’s too smart.

Pair that with Obama’s genius ‘pig’ comment.

One comment that at the same time makes him sound Muslim AND like maybe he really did learn something from Jerimiah Wright’s apoplexy.

MAC,

Pair that with Obama’s genius ‘pig’ comment.

As opposed to McCain’s genius ‘pig’ comment last year toward Hillary? It’s okay though, that’s McCain. He has a history of calling women denigrating names (including his own wife). But a young black man calling a white woman a pig…we can’t have none of that.

Dan, #10

No, not at all.

Please, please, let Obama say what ever nasty little thing his post-political, post-racial campaign can dream up.

Sorry, but Asians and Europeans tend to care more about education and intellect. It’s not just in politics–it’s in everything. Museums and books are popular.
Don’t get me wrong–plenty of them like sports, etc.
But they value education and intelligence more than Americans do.
So they have a hard time understanding why Americans vote for George W. Bush, McCain, or Palin, when it’s obvious that there are more intelligent alternatives.
I’m not saying that those three candidates are stupid.
I think there are other factors involved here too. Obama reminds them of Kennedy, who was wildly popular in Europe. He’s young, full of hope. He’s proud to be an American but he doesn’t look down on other countries.
He’s lived outside of the US, and knows first-hand how the rest of the world operates. He’s not solely a product of Americanism–he’s seen how other countries operate. And the rest of the world appreciates that.

Tim,

It’s not because he has socialist leanings? Which of the presidents did not have and Ivy League education? If you’re talking intellectual type versus faith type, you may have a point, but that does not connect to intelligence at all.

Have you ever been to Europe? They love sports. They do enjoy museums, books, and philosophy, in general, but hardly specifically more than Americans. They are different in their political pursuits and moral/ethical fabric.

They don’t relate to people like Bush and Palin because they are uniquely American types. They are heavily family-oriented in a country that makes it possible to raise a family of 3+. They are property rights people and American Dream people. Europeans don’t usually relate to that, unless they are successful leaders of industry or otherwise have conservative leanings.

One reason non-Americans love Obama is that they identify with him- (Europe is a liberal place, for one) soft politics, values intellectualism & empiricism, and is an orator. He speaks well and seems like someone you could sit in a cafe with, have some coffee and talk Kant, Hume, and most familiar to him, Marx.

Tim, #14

Sorry, but Asians and Europeans tend to care more about education and intellect. It’s not just in politics–it’s in everything. Museums and books are popular.

Can you in any way back up that ridiculously bigoted (and arguably false) statement?

Which “Asians” and “Europeans” in particular? North Koreans? Pashtun? Russian speaking German Kazakhs? Chavs?

How do you measure intellect?

How do you compare Indian and Japanese engineering schools to Obama’s liberal arts degree from Columbia or law degree from Harvard?

One thing is certain. A society where one third of its children do not graduate from high school and the next third is neither prepared for college nor a 21st century job cannot maintain itself as a world power.

Europeans are concerned about America’s public and private debt, our crumbling infrastructure highlighted by collapsing bridges, the propensity of Republican leaders to divide America’s allies rather than her enemies, and the whole sale surrender of American values.

Think about it. The world’s sole super power has been unable to pacify a third world country that spent less than $2 billion on defense annually.

Clearly, there are limits to our power that require international goodwill and cooperation. Had it not been for the Sunni sheikhs in Anbar, we would not have gotten anywhere in Iraq.

In the war against terrorism, we need information. If people around the world neither trust nor like us, the information will not be forthcoming.

All it takes is for us to embrace our own values once more. An administration that pushes a fundamentalist agenda such as creationism will not be able to lead us into the 21st century.

Barack Obama passed ethics reform, led on fuel efficiency, and worked with Senator Lugar on finding and destroying loose nuclear materials in the former Soviet Union. That is a lot more than his opponents accomplished.

Naismith,

I think that Obama’s understanding of the world is part of his basis for opposing the immoral (according to the Book of Mormon) invasion of Iraq. He understood that the hard part was winning the peace, not the shooting war.

I don’t have any issue with your portrayal of Bush as inferior to Obama on foreign policy, but your logic here confuses me. I have to ask, did he oppose the war because he saw that neither of those were worth winning then?

The usual, and better argument, is the costs/benefits ratio- I think the foresight of a “quagmire” was more theoretical and less valid an argument, though it proved true. Still, I wonder what we’re doing in or will be doing in Afghanistan if Obama has such a clear understanding of foreign policy and takes such a position in these matters. But I know the answer- he’s a politician. He’s not nearly as gloriously intelligent as people deify him as. I like that about him.

Besides, is this world that is backing Obama the same world that cannot come to agreement on who was responsible for 9/11? Someone here mentioned intelligence…

ESO,

I am currently living abroad, for the umpteenth time, and I think that you will find that American expats are about as equally divided on politics as other Americans.

I was in Cameroon a few weeks ago and there is certainly a lot of love for Obama in that part of Africa. But there is little or no understanding of the American political system and when pressed, those that I spoke to, had little Obama preference for any reason other that his star quality and the fact that he has African roots.

But I have a hard time believing that a large majority of his support falls into either 1) identity politics and 2) leftist political sympathy, both of which are pretty good reasons for them to be ignored.

RickFFM,

Thanks for taking my words the extra mile. I wouldn’t have taken it that far- wait, I didn’t.

To make my comments more explicit for you, my reference to empiricism was more a reference to value priorities than mutually exclusive values. Just like it would be asinine to say Liberals don’t value faith. It tends to not be a priority, just as empiricism is generally a lesser value among conservatives.

An administration that pushes a fundamentalist agenda such as creationism

I know plenty of pro-life, anti-gay marriage democrats who believe in creationism and think it should be taught in schools. They continue to be democrats over environmental issues and health care.

Europeans complain about our education, but they’re lining up to come to our colleges, last I checked.
That’s true. Grad school is great. Middle and high school are horrible. Undergraduate education amounts largely to remedial education, which is not even available to most Americans.
Notice, many graduate departments could not sustain themselves without global recruitment. There are not enough Americans to staff assistant- and professorships.

A society where one third of its children do not graduate from high school and the next third is neither prepared for college nor a 21st century job cannot maintain itself as a world power.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions people have about education in America. There is a belief that we should measure education by the mean or the bottom — “oh look at all those who fall out!”, as if this is a negative reflection on the educational system (and not society as a whole).

I believe there is value in looking at smaller, targeted samples. Look at the top students — where do they stack up internationally? Look at wealthy suburbs and rich parts of urban America. Then look at the rural areas and the poor urban areas. Draw an accurate cross section of America.

I contend that there is nothing wrong with America’s educational system *in certain areas*. Of course, those are the areas where I choose to live. When the social fabric of American society allows a student to focus on education and gives him hope, our educational system is better than anywhere else around. When the social fabric is broken, no school can possibly succeed.

People like to think that our education system feeds society, but it’s really the case where our social health impacts how well our children learn.

I’ve often stated that you can’t hold teachers to the NCLB standards that we do, if you don’t somehow find a way to hold parents to a certain standard.

No matter how we compare ourselves, a system that leaves two thirds of the population unprepared for the labor market is a failure.

RickFFM,

Conservatives tend more towards being examples of behaviorism. ;)

MAC–thanks for your perspective. I wonder about the ex-pat community with which you affiliate? I would guess that, for example, Mormons, Foreign Service, and military crowds would be rather pro-McCain or “evenly split” whereas many others may go the other way. Nonetheless, I would guess that any Americans living abroad would have more of an appreciation/acceptance for non-American opinion (even if it does not sway their own opinions) than home-bound Americans, who frequently dismiss world opinion out of hand.

Also, could you please clarify this:
“But I have a hard time believing that a large majority of his support falls into either 1) identity politics and 2) leftist political sympathy”
Are you speaking of Obama support in Cameroon? In America?
btw–I found my colleagues in Kenya (all university educated, but living in very rural Africa) had quite a good grasp of American government and history. They were, of course, limited on current events to the reporting of the national newspaper and radio, but voraciously read my hand-me-down Newsweeks. Still, they were 100% convinced Bush rigged the election (I was there 1999-2003)–so of course their local experiences tainted their expectations of international elections :). Obviously, many people in countries with high illiteracy rates may hold less nuanced opinions than you or I might hope for.

nasamomdele–
Re: “Americans are subject to the laws and policies of the American Gov’t while foreigners are not. We ought to be holding our candidates to more scrutiny than the rest of the world, and therefore should probably only take their vote in stride.”
Of course! I am not suggesting anything else! Their opinion is not without merit, but it is also not binding.

I absolutely anticipate that Obama will be the American president, and not the World’s if only for the practical reason that he will seek re-election from Americans.

“how many people are trying to break into France or England? How many people yearn for the shores of Europe?”

Lots. Millions. They have huge immigration issues from their neighbors, just as we do.

#39–annegb, European nations are experiencing enormous problems with a flood of illegal/undocumented immigration from poorer neighboring countries (desperate people on makeshift rafts and all). I don’t take issue with calling us the greatest country in the world, but your first paragraph is mistaken.

Nah, it’s hyperbole–I sort of knew it wasn’t entirely correct (as opposed to mistaken LOL). Don’t you think if those people had a choice, they’d come to America?

I mean, what poor farmer in Guatemala is saying to himself “If only I could go to France? France is a great country?” No, they’re all dreaming of America.

annegb–
“I mean, what poor farmer in Guatemala is saying to himself “If only I could go to France? France is a great country?” No, they’re all dreaming of America.”

I know Americans have a hard time believing this (especially Mormon “promised land” types :) :
It is just a matter of geography. If Germany were closer, it might be more attractive. And Canada is definitely more attractive to immigrants. There are some immigrants with romantic ideas about the home of Coca Cola and Elvis, but I would guess for the most part, people are looking for “welcoming shores” and that is generally not the US.

MAC–my husband is quite a-typical and actually remains mum on this point (although he gets to vote this year, so I am sure he has opinions). Again, I see no particular problem with non citizens and non-voters forming uninformed opinions based on shared lineage. When voters and citizens fall for this, though, that is the issue.

Your previous assertion, though, that it would be ridiculous to side with Obama because of “leftist political sympathy” of course, jettisons half of the political spectrum of any country and population. Clearly, your personal bias is revealed.

(I might be willing to let France vote in our elections and proportion it an appropriate number of electoral votes, if it wants to pay our taxes and adhere to other rules. This is a very interesting thought…)

“My personal bias is revealed!” I’m glad you found it, though it was hardly intended to be concealed.

And it is perfectly correct to jettison half or more of the political opinion spectrum of any country or population if those opinions have proven to be counter-productive to attaining their self-professed goals.

Thomas Sowell has a very timely and well written article about the issue, published just today!

Grow Up
The vision of the Left.

ESO, let’s be perfectly clear: The reason America is a great country is because Europe mistreated its Jews and its poor, so they came here.

Regarding the Jews in particular, European culture might have been really great if Europe hadn’t treated its Jews so poorly. The list of names of individuals or members of families that immigrated to the US from Europe reads like a Who’s Who of 20th century science and culture; people like Arnold Schoenberg, George Gershwin, Otto Klemperer, Irving Berlin, Billy Wilder, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Albert Einstein — enough to write multiple posts about. In fact, one could argue that there would be almost no American culture at all if it weren’t for Jews.

To this day, in France, Synagogues tend to be nondescript buildings that don’t attract attention, and many Jews are reluctant to put outward sign of Judaism where they are visible outside their houses (e.g., menorahs).

Because I work in technology, I work with a lot of immigrants. Their sentiment is unanimous: the primary reason why people emigrate to Europe is because they can’t get into the US and American immigration policy is so ass-backwards. Many of them have siblings who couldn’t get into the US, and so they went to Germany or some other place in Europe.

The USA was born because a group of very smart, very wealthy men decided to throw off European rule. History has vindicated this decision too many times to enumerate. Indeed, Europe’s poor behavior is the gift that keeps on giving.

John Mansfield–I have claimed no special clarity on opinions of foreigners, although my foreign living is not confined to my Peace Corps experience. All I said was that it interested me who dismissed foreign opinions and who did not.

DKL–your first position is interesting and arguable and all I will say about the second is that we agree on American immigration policy! Some people really do like Europe, though.

ESO, I revised my comment to be a little more meaty.

I am painfully tired of these stupid America vs. Europe fights. Having lived in the US, the UK, and continental Europe I would say that the quality of life is largely the same in all three, provided you’re middle class or above. The biggest division in the world is between the rich world and the poor world, which is why the poor are flocking to both the US and the European Union.

Anyway, what does this have to do with Freedland’s argument, which is that *the world,* and not just Guardian-reading Oxford dons, is yearning for an Obama victory. He is certainly right that if the Republicans win, especially if their victory is based in any way on the fact that the VP hunts for caribou, many of us will realise that our ideological differences with the American majority are profound indeed. This may drive the EU to realise that if it wants a voice in the world, it cannot rely on America to articulate its “western” beliefs. Thus a McCain Whitehouse may see a further push to develop a United States of Europe. Whether that is good or bad, I’ll let you decide.

DKL–no fair! Still, your point about Jews is interesting and arguable–thanks for the examples.

I work in education, primarily with immigrants, so we have mixed reviews. I agree that for technology, the US seems to be the place to be (even Europeans come here!), but many people appreciate the multilingualism and and multiculturalism of Europe (not to mention their social programs, which both assist and oppress immigrants). Still, I am glad our country continues to have a favorable reputation for many–probably despite our government rather than because of it.

Ronan, I’ll concede every point you’ve made. Perhaps its about time that Europe realized that the USA is a lot more Mark Twain and a lot less Ernest Hemingway than it thinks.

In either case, the rest of the world overestimates the importance of the US president. Furthermore, US politics have much more continuity than they understand (due primarily to the narrowness of the USA’s political spectrum). Thanks to the strong strain of Mark Twain in American politics, Obama has moderated his foreign policy positions in order to make himself more palatable to the general voting public, such that they’re materially indistinguishable for McCains with regard to Iraq and Iran.

But I disagree with you about the consequences of electing McCain. There’s no reason to take such warnings any more seriously than the occasional hacked-off Hollywood liberal who threatens to move to Canada. In the end, if McCain gets elected, then (in spite of all the bluster and complaining they’re doing in advance of the election), they’ll just shrug their shoulders in amazement and go on with things the same way they always have, the same way we do when Europe elects anti-American politicians.

DKL,
I like the Twain/Hemingway metaphor.

I think you underestimate the disillusion. It’s one thing coming from France, but when even the land of Churchill and Thatcher loses hope, something has changed.

And it has. It would be political suicide for either our current Labour government or our future Conservative government to be as pro-American as Thatcher, Major, or Blair. Which is why MAC is wrong. Europe does matter to America. Bush needed Blair for Iraq; such help may not be forthcoming for another generation if the rhetoric from the White House (even if it is just a matter of style) is not perceived more positively.

See Ronan, you are making one of the points for some of us. We simply don’t care if you want a bunch of nations or an United States of Europe (though we both know it would be a cold day in hell before they ever named it that). Do what you need to do.

It would be political suicide for either our current Labour government or our future Conservative government to be as pro-American as Thatcher, Major, or Blair. Which is why MAC is wrong. Europe does matter to America.

I think both points are essentially right, in a weird way.

The US might very well need the “goodwill” an Obama victory would generate.

But we don’t elect presidents based on political goodwill from other countries. We elect presidents based on a few voters in a swing state feel about how the president speaks to THEIR values and THEIR identity. And most of the time, those people get irate when they think Europe is telling them what to do.

Even if the policies and strategies were the same, Europe might warm to action against Iran if it came from Joe Biden. If Sarah Palin suggested it, Europe would go bezerk. It’s that simple and that silly.

So Europe isn’t very thoughtful and can’t judge the correctness of an argument, no matter who’s making it? They simply rely on an emotional reaction to someone’s personality to make a judgment call? Wow.

OK, Ronan. Glad we got that out of the way. Paris is just like Pittsburgh, then.

So … Americans should care what Europeans think?

[Keep in mind - I personally do care what Europeans think. I personally do think American should worry about its place in the world ... up to a point.

But it's folly for Europeans to think that the mass noun called "America" gives a crap about what it thinks, and to a large extent, it's counterproductive.]

Stupidest post I’ve read in a long time. The world’s opinion is NOT immaterial. Thinking that it is, is what got us in this mess in the first place.

But a young black man calling a white woman a pig

As if that’s what happened. If your brain works like Karl Rove’s brain, then that’s what happened. If you’re otherwise a sane and intelligent individual, you know that this is not what was said.

He’s clearly referring to Palin and Obama respectively

DKL,
Please put the partisan-hack-mask away. Its hard for me to understand how you can offer such balanced/intelligent analysis and then be so completely blind. He was CLEARLY reacting to McCain’s assertion that HE is the REAL change candidate.

Who cares what a bunch of adults posing as fifth graders thought he said?(that includes the Dems he was speaking to and the grasping-for-anything Right-wing media) You can say a lot of things about Obama but a balanced look at the man would reveal that he’s too polished of a politician to make such a statement without realizing the consequences.

Watch the video – read the full text of the speech – determine that its all BS and retain your respectability.

Mac,

For the education statistics, I refer you to a series of reports by the Gates Foundation: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/unitedstates/education
Go to the PDF downlaod “All Students College Ready,” which describes the state of American secondary education on pages 5 and 6.

For the higher education claim, feel free to check out the engineering and natural science faculty of any American institution.

Even in the social sciences, American universities would be hard pressed to fill positions without hiring a substantial share of international graduate assistants. When I served on my department’s admission committee, the comparison between American and international students was not even close.

Hellmut: A society where one third of its children do not graduate from high school and the next third is neither prepared for college nor a 21st century job cannot maintain itself as a world power

I used to hear this said of the 20th century, too. It’s a pretty tired line, to be sure. Europe has claimed to have better education that the US since the end of WWI (before that, they didn’t even have to make the claim). Germany was supposedly much more educated than the US when they started rounding up Jews and killing them — eugenics was good science in central Europe.

You should read the Austian Hayek on education. He maintained that 99% of education occurred osmotically within a culture. Which is why illiterate folks in West Virginia don’t elect fascists, when highly educated sophisticates in Germany sat idly by when an autocratic government literally did away with freedom of the press. And Hayek’s point here is beyond dispute: The West Virginians have historically behaved better as voters and as citizens than any major European country.

That’s also why uneducated American are more productive than workers anywhere in Europe outside of Britain (and it’s comparable in Britain). Hayek maintained that the “education” that people gained at institutions (PhD’s, MS’s etc.) ends up constituting about 1% of our total knowledge max.

But if it makes Europeans like you feel better, then I’ll concede that they have better degrees than us, because I really do think that such measures are totally useless.

Naismith: I think that Obama’s understanding of the world is part of his basis for opposing the immoral (according to the Book of Mormon) invasion of Iraq.

Oh, please. The Book of Mormon mentions Iraq exactly as many times at it mentions chocolate. The Book of Mormon has no relevance at all to 21st century American politics, but if it does, than surely it instructs us to make Iraq into a parking lot. Personally, I think that’s extreme.

Just kidding.

I respect the fact that you apply the scriptures that way. Even so, it shouldn’t surprise you that my reading is different from yours.

Or for that matter anyone else who dared criticize me for my insulting comments who stay silent when DKL spews off his vile, venomous hatred. Or is it that you all prefer to thrust that hatred toward Democrats and liberals? Do you think comments like the one I highlighted from DKL are okay? You guys seem to think it is not okay when someone on the left (or the middle) throws it at someone on the right. You say, “stop that. Be kind.” But when someone like DKL says it, you stay silent. Why, exactly? Why is it okay for DKL to spout off like that? What exactly makes him get away with this kind of crap in your guys’ eyes?

No, DKL, that was vile hatred. But I’m glad I got your attention you sick bastard.

This article and some of the resulting comments shows just how out of touch and backward looking the US Republican Right is -and hence 70′s of US Mormons- when compared to the rest of the free world, that free world that rejects Warmongers, Guantanamo Bay type prisons, and has its finances in order. Remember that its the Republican Right which has taken the US to world’s largest debtor status with its Reaganomics -his Voodoo economics of lowering taxes while increasing mostly military spending.

But worst of all is that US mormons just don’t seem to get it. They seems to live in a fantasy world void of any responsibility and accountability, fully supporting in 2004 that illegal preemptive attack on a sovereign nation Bush jnr and his cronies did and those huge fiscal deficits that Reagan and then especially Bush daddy and Bush jnr have created. Amazing! and Utah is the reddest state in the union!

Unbelievable.

And maybe it would be better if the US was expelled from NATO, at least the other honourable NATO nations won’t get their hand dirty with the blood that’s on Bush Jnr’s hands!!

Actually David, I backed Hillary in the NY primary. Obama’s got weaknesses a plenty – which is why its so puzzling that Republicans need to focus on such interpretive claims. I guess if that’s all you got – spin away!

CJ Douglass, you can still back Hillary and have a near-homo-crush on Obama.

Putin had a minor issue with little Georgia…which the free world condemn,s and it didn’t affect oil prices too much.

McCain wants to spread the Irak war into Iran. Even jokes about it. That would make for a war on 3 fronts…yeap that makes McCain a bigger threat than Putin.

And remember that Bush stuck new missiles under Putin’s nose, plus he started looking for trouble with china back in ’01 with those planes flying in Chinese airspace. So yes, the US Republican Right ARE the biggest warmongers we have seen this side of Vietnam….were the US was also involved..Amazing!

Sorry David, the evidence says no – its not possible. Just ask your friend Mark Foley – you mindless Republican drone.

Just what is an asshat?

Maybe all this conflict and confusion is really just about a misunderstanding of its definition.

This article and some of the resulting comments shows just how out of touch and backward looking the US Republican Right is -and hence 70’s of US Mormons

*looks around*

No, no Republicans here in this household.

I count one Dem and one Independent.

And two McCain voters.

Doesn’t anyone remember the pie-in-the-sky demagoguery of Jimmy Carter, one of the most inept presidents of the 20th Century?

Yeah, Obama is a younger Jimmy Carter, but without the experience. At least Carter held an executive elective office for a few years.

And if Obama is a black Carter, then maybe O’bama is black Irish too?

Have there been any Irish O’bama jokes out there? Or did I just invent that? I don’t watch much television.

It’s late.z

99. queuno,

“Oh, please, won’t you? The European states can protect themselves, is that what you’re pretending?”

ahhhh, No. Just hoping that good and decent european nations don’t get contaminated with the Republican rightwing’s warmongering.

100. queuno,

So sad that two non-republicans want to be counted with those republicans who love war and turn a blind eye to the bombing of inocent children in Iraq, then in Iran if McCain does unfortunately win. So sad.

bloggernacleburner, #73

Love NAFTA and all but with your right wing having a collective freakout about the impending CanMexUs merger I think we’ll start diversifying our resource sales.

What? The anti-NAFTA movement in the US is primarily left wing/labor union driven and was an issue in the Democratic primary.

Remember Obama campaigned against NAFTA and then had to write a memo to the Canadians saying that it was all just political positioning to get votes?

…Canada’s CTV News reported that a “senior member” of Obama’s campaign had phoned Wilson personally to advise him to “not be worried about what Obama says about NAFTA.”…

IF you don’t understand American politics, it’s is probably best to keep your opinions about it to yourself, for fear of stepping in it. I would venture a guess that most of the non-Americans polled don’t have sufficient understanding of the American political system to make an informed decision.

But, for those who feel the need to run off at the mouth anyway, thank you. The unintended consequences of your presumption may help keep Obama out of the White House.

Mark N: I will wait for the next demonstration of faked outrage on the part of the McCain campaign, because surely it’s coming.

Yeah. Because Obama and the Democrats never fake outrage.

Look, Obama’s running a pretty negative campaign. He was supposed to be doing a “new kind of politics, that builds upon shared understandings that bring us together as Americans.”

Instead of he’s just bashing the Republicans with old, tired out lines like “It’s like they take pride in being ignorant” or “”I mean, come on, they must think you’re stupid.” Then there’s the pig-with-lipstick line, or the claim that McCain thinks that middle class American’s earn $5,000,000 in his convention speech (which was a joke by McCain).

It’s not rage or fake rage or any emotion, really — but I totally get why you want to smear your political opponents by classifying it that way. What’s happening isn’t hostility toward Obama. What’s happening is that the Republicans are rubbing your face in the fact that Obama’s campaign is the same, tired, old crap that Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry lost with. This is not just pretty normal politics, but it’s also one of the more boring varieties of it.

Obama is the most divisive figure in American politics right now, and he’s made himself that way. The great thing about Sarah Palin is that if Obama loses, she’s going to be the obvious reason, so the Democrats can’t have their fake rage over racism.

Too bad you and CJ Douglass chose the wrong candidate to have a near-homo-crush on.

It’s really easy to point out hypocrisy on both sides, but what it boils down to is that neither Republicans nor Democrats value the principles brought up in claims of hypocrisy more than they value winning. For both of them, the end justifies the means. I think this has always been this way in politics and always will be. But somehow people are still surprised by it.

This from the world that also loves Obama:

Percentage of the populace in countries who think that 9/11 was an inside job by the US government:

Germany: 23%,
Mexico: 30%
Turkey: 36%

Hellmut, look how much good their education is doing them in Germany.

# 110 Rick,

Preach on, brutha

And if that’s too tangential, maybe the percentage of Americans that believed Iraq was directly involved in 9/11 or had provided substantial support to Al Qaeda.

I’m interested in the poll that links insanity to Obama supporters. Especially the order of the questions.

1. Are you registered to vote?
2. Are you voting for McCain or Obama?
3. Are you insane?

:)

6. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

nasamomdele,

Don’t be a victim, Dan.

Not in the least. I am merely pointing out the double standards. If you ask me not to be insulting, I expect the same for when DKL is insulting. DKL will always be insulting. That’s just who he is. He will always rely on character attacks because he has nothing else. He is weak. But I am angry that you and the rest don’t call him on his insults when you call me on mine. Double standards just don’t work, nasamomdele.

If you want me to be respectful, then stop the double standards.

Mark

The bad news is, virtually all those people are insane, and they are also almost all Obama supporters. The even worse news is that since the electorate is more or less evenly divided between McCain and Obama, we can conclude that less than half of Obama’s base is sane.

Huh? Where’s the evidence.

Mark,

I looked up Scripps poll at their website

http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=CONSPIRACY-08-02-06

and there is no evidence there of them asking what the political views of those they polled are. So where exactly do you get that “almost all [are] Obama supporters.” Sounds like there is no support for that accusation, and you’re merely following in line with your Great One’s (that would be John McCain) tactics of sliming Obama and his supporters without actual evidence.

The moment DKL says, “All Democrats are hellish fiends” and “I want the Democratic party wiped off the face of the Earth” or “Republicans’ sh-t don’t stink”, I’ll have something to say.

You’re trying to set a double-standard when you and DKL are not polar opposites of each other. You are in a class all your own, so you receive treatment all your own.

nasamomdele,

Where have I said “All Republicans are hellish fiends” and “I want the Republican party wiped off the face of the Earth” or “Democrats’ sh-t don’t stink.” Show me where I said that and then you would have a point. Otherwise, you don’t.

#127,

I lean liberal. Are you saying I am insane?

PS: I knew you were truly a Republican. Thanks for finally revealing who you really are.

Aw, hell, Dan. You wear me out.

I was trying to take a light-hearted (and light-minded) approach to the “Bush Lied! People Died” hysteria that is promoted overwhelmingly by the American Left. Do I really need to cite chapter and verse? 9/11 Truthers are almost all Obama supporters of the Michael Moore stripe, or Ron Paul voters.

Here’s a website that purports to shwo that 9/11 was a fraud perpetrated upon the American citizery “by that fascist, Bush”. If that rhetoric sounds familiar, it should, since you use it yourself so much.

Link: http://bushstole04.com/

Robert Byrd (D., WV) is voting Republican? Wow!

Byrd is voting Republican? Can we send the ballot back? Like a bad campaign donation?

nasamomdele,

in comment #119, you went along with this poll, adding questions of your own to Rick’s questions (in comment #118):

I’m interested in the poll that links insanity to Obama supporters.

You apparently went along with it. So I assume you were trying to be amusing with the liberals must be insane thing. So I made my own “amusing” remark about conservatives beating their wives. I think they are a perfect set of examples of the problem here, nasamomdele. You think it is perfectly fine to make light of liberals by questioning their sanity. Frankly, I see no problem making light of conservatives questioning how they beat their wives.

If you want something more respectful, then you must show more respect. Otherwise, there is plenty more of this kind of crap.

If I am insane, then you beat your wife, nasamomdele.

I was trying to take a light-hearted (and light-minded) approach to the “Bush Lied! People Died” hysteria that is promoted overwhelmingly by the American Left.

If it’s “hysteria”, I guess that means that the Bush admin guys never lied (especially when Rumsfeld said “We know where the WMDs are”), and people (ours or theirs) never died. Is that what you’re saying?

Maybe you should learn a little more yourself before you go off half-cocked and imply that those who disagree with you are insane or stupid.

Well, I was hoping that the population of persons in this world whose thinking processes mirrored the thinking processes of Karl Rove would be a sufficiently small number that the odds of running across someone in this forum who qualifies would be extremely small.

I guess I underestimated the population number.

nasamomdele,

Spousal abuse is in no way funny. You are simply throwing another insult.

Indeed it isn’t funny. And I really don’t think you beat your spouse, or that it is a generalization of conservatives. I think I’ve gotten my point across. From here on out I shall only be insulting to DKL until he apologizes.

As for my part, I apologize, nasamomdele, for any insults directed at you.

Do you know what a Truther is?

Should this question be directed to Mark IV? I don’t know why this question would be directed at me.

No, it was directed at Mark N.

Mark IV refers to hysteria perpetuated by 9/11 Truthers, and your (Mark N’s) rebuttal was a superficial glance at what “Bush lied, Children Died” literally could mean. I don’t think you (Mark N) captured the whole context of Mark IV’s statement is all.

Instead of “Conservatives”, do you mean Republicans?

I guess we should just ask DKL who the “we” is in “There’s a reason why we don’t let these asshats vote in US elections!”. He would seem to be the ultimate authority on this one.

I don’t get the feeling he means “all Americans” by it, given his rightwing leanings, and the presumed leftwing leanings of the “rest of the world”.

So, Mark N, your theory is that Bush knew that there were no weapons of mass destruction, and went in anyway? That is a pretty extreme position. Most educated people who oppose him and aren’t just parroting protest slogans believe that he disbelieved some key evidence and was therefore negligent when he made his judgment to invade Iraq. The “Bush lied, people died” mantra

As for the “we” in “There’s a reason why we don’t let these asshats vote in US elections!” I’m referring to those of us who uphold (expressly on tacitly) the laws of the various states in the US that make US citizenship a requirement for voting.

Mark N: And no amount of weasel-wording will cause statements like those to be regarded merely as errors or blunders. They were flat out lies.

Thank you. I now know that you’re a total whack job. Hopefully for you, your candidate and the near-homo-crush that you have on him will prevail in November.

The funny thing is that you have to spend an entire paragraph explaining in a round-about kind of way exactly how their statements can be construed as likes. Then you conclude that they’re “flat-out” lies. Your rhetorical approach belies this assertion.

You’re also ignoring the fact that every piece of intelligence that they looked (pro-wmd and anti-wmd) was made available to Congress to view for days in closed session. So if it’s as straightforward as you make it, so Congress lied, people died” — even “Biden lied, people died” — is equally accurate.

Mark N: You’re simply interested in upholding and sustaining the election laws, and no criticism of the foreign asshats who would rather see Obama elected President was intended on the basis of their preference.

Your poor reading of my statement underscores why you’re not qualified to tell if anyone is lying.

My sentence assumes that “we” (upholders of state law) don’t allow them to vote. This is a factual statement with no normative content. If you wish to dispute this, then I really don’t know what to tell you.

It also asserts that there is a reason why we don’t allow them to vote. This alone is ambiguous. By itself, it could be normative or non-normative. A non-normative reason would be that it’s against the law.

I resolve this ambiguity by calling the people described in the article and British PM James Brown “asshats.” By using the term “asshat,” I make it clear that I believe that they ought not to vote.

All of this is pretty basic English 101 type stuff. It’s truly astonishing to me that I have to actually break this down for you. Perhaps you aren’t a nut-job after all, and I’m simply dealing with someone of sub-par intelligence.

Furthermore, I do not elaborate on why they ought not to vote in the post, but in my comment #81 in response to Lincoln Cannon’s rant, I state:

They’re asshats for presuming to warn Americans, because it posits that they should have some sort of unofficial say in American elections.

Notice how you change the charge from leaders injecting propaganda into governments influencing an election. Too many of your arguments depend on straw men. Either you’re too foamed-up at the mouth to realize this, or (again) it is evidence that you have a sub-par intelligence.

Our presidents have never injected propaganda directly into an election of an ally. It’s bad form, and James Brown should know better.

I’m not sure whose point you’re trying to prove by offering another straw man.

As I indicated:

My sentence assumes that “we” (upholders of state law) don’t allow them to vote.

I’m offering a reason why there are laws that don’t allow them to vote; viz., that they’re asshats. This is not a substitute for the law. It is an explanation of it.

Are you a sock puppet for Dan? In any case, I’ve now concluded that you are both a whack job and that you have sub-par intelligence. It’s probably safe to say that everybody with a near-homo-crush on Obama is a lot like you. Scary.

If that’s the best response you can muster, then I’m just going to note that you can’t win this argument, Mark.

RickFFM: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Well yeah! You don’t expect me to beat her forever do ya?

Personally, I prefer to ask: “Have you stopped beating my wife yet?”

No RickFFM, you’ve got it the wrong way. You’re supposed to ask me if I’ve stopped beating your wife. I’d never ask that question of someone, because I really don’t much appreciate other people making jokes about beating my wife.

LOL. Fair enough. I should have said simply “the question I prefer.”

That is a really interesting post, thank you.