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oh, dan, you had me at “border fence!” i know, not what this is about… but as a san diego native who also spent a few years in south los angeles (while my husband was working in law enforcement), the border issues are near and dear and too many people just don’t “get it.” but you have made me consider that i might very well be independent-ish. |
Yeah, well ya lost me at “border fence.” You preface your list as “stupid things.” Most of the quotes on your list really are stupid (Palin a pig, Palin as brilliant with Gibson, air quality, overly simple comparisons of Europe and USA) or at best reveal ignorance (Obama the Muslim, drilling, taxing Big Oil). But the border fence? In order for this position to be stupid, it has to be so obviously wrong as to require little or no analysis to reach that conclusion. For example, if you could point to some well-known terrorist activity—or other major threat to US security—that crossed the Mexican border. Drugs don’t count since plenty of those enter the US via other routes. Your position is that this is a “top 5 priority,” but it’s not immediately obvious that this is so much more important than health care, mortgages, Iraq, Russia/NATO, trade gaps, renewable energy, public education, basic science funding, Iran, North Korea, Israel, Soc Sec, or veteran’s affairs, to name a few—for you to be right, only four things on that list can be higher priority than your fence. No, I think there is ample room for intelligent people to disagree with you on this issue. By labeling them as “stupid” without even engaging their arguments, you are guilty of the same partisan politics you decry in your post. |
A very good post. |
BrianJ, Unfortunately, I can’t go too deep into my reasons for wanting a border fence without getting my clearance revoked ;-). But yes, there are significant numbers of people from countries that want to harm us, coming through our Southern border easily because they are indistinguishable from Mexicans. I happen to be a sympathizer to our Latino immigrant population; a border fence is not a racist proposition in any way for me. Here’s some open-source info:
Tim, you’re right that a fence wouldn’t solve the entire problem. I would like to see military bases moved along the border so they can do training and wargaming in those areas. I have talked with military officers who would like to do this as well. |
That’s not the list of a “moderate.” You’re a lot like Dan-spam. You’re convinced you’re a moderate, but you pretty much stick to the Democratic talking points with no variation. (yeah, I said I was leaving from lurking, but I decided just to ignore that other Dan instead). To say that a conservative who agrees with you is honest (and by implication those that don’t are somehow dishonest) doesn’t place you in the moderate category – in fact your list is pretty much “My adolescent Other are conservatives.” Fine. Disagree with the border fence. Think Palin isn’t all that (politically) hot. But don’t claim to be a moderate unless you’re willing to generate an equally long and detailed list about failed liberal talking points. |
Dan, If you don’t think that offshore drilling will improve our energy security, why do you favor offshore drilling? I’m not being critical – just curious. |
John P., Did you actually read what I said, or did you see the the first item and project a liberal perspective onto the rest? Here is what I said is a stupid thing to say about the border fence:
I took a very conservative, even ultra-conservative position on the border fence, and I pointed out that Democratic talking points on gun control and oil companies are ridiculous. Unfortunately, as you read my comments, you saw what you were looking for, which is sadly typical of partisans. |
ganzo (6), It would create lots of high-paying jobs that our economy needs, and I think oil companies have become very good about addressing the environmental impacts of offshore drilling. It would not improve our energy security noticeably in any way, and much of the drilling would be in deep water, where over 80% of the world’s drilling equipment is already committed for the next decade to the recent finds off the coast of Brazil. |
Odd. The ultra-conservative position is that the fence needs to GO UP NOW! (which I don’t agree with). So if you think you’re taking the conservative position, it just goes to show how far left wing you are. As for the gun control/oil companies thing: Those truly are moderate, but the heavy weight of your list (9 total items, two moderate, one neither here not there, and six quite liberal) doesn’t inspire confidence. It’s often common for liberals and conservatives of many stripes to toss in a token moderate position amongst many “no variation talking points from party” lists. It’s, frankly, dishonest to claim to be a moderate when it’s clear you only have a few token moderate positions and your real beef is with conservatives (who, you imply, are mostly dishonest). Which is typical of partisans. How sad. |
This is my position as well, only I would also like to see it reinforced with military bases. Would you care to explain how that is a left-wing position? |
Dan Ellsworth; there are significant numbers of people from countries that want to harm us, coming through our Southern border If this were true we would expect that some of them would actually succeed. The Beltway snipers, two guys with a rifle and an old car on a shoe string budget held this country spell bound in terror. Without getting your clearance revoked, why haven’t these significant numbers of people succeeded? |
explaining so much of our contemporary partisan bickering Honestly, I think district magnitude does a far better job of explaining partisan bickering. |
Howard (11), I personally think it’s because so many of them want to do something really spectacular, on the scale of 9/11 (see the Kennedy jet fuel plot from last year). This is way, way more difficult now that we have a vigilant public and law enforcement, and we actually have red cell imagination on par with or better than the terrorists. If terrorists in our country (and there are many) were more creative, they would realize there are a lot of things they could do to kill a lot of people and cripple our economy, for under $10k. |
Something really spectacular is not necessary to hold the country spell bound in terror. But something spectacular, on the scale of 9/11 or a new Pearl Harbor was necessary to commit the peace loving people of this nation to never ending wars and rumors of wars. Are you sure this is all about terrorists who want to harm us and not all about the big profitable business of war? |
Btw, I’ve never seen JFK’s fuel farm but as a pilot I can tell you that fuel is stored far from anything that could be easily destroyed. It would have provided some spectacular footage like a refinery fire, but not much real damage. |
Howard (14), I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Are you suggesting terrorists want to conduct a spectacular attack to further the business interests of those who profit in war? Clarification, please.
This is why we have a lot of unsuccessful plots going on in the U.S.- everyone wants to be the next Mohammed Atta, instead of taking quieter, more distributed approaches. |
We don’t actually know much about 911 and what we think we know came from our government. We do know from history that governments accrue power by uniting their people in fear against a common enemy. The question we need to answer is; who benefits? Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex long ago. We need to be alert and watchful; For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. This is why we have a lot of unsuccessful plots going on in the U.S.- everyone wants to be the next Mohammed Atta, instead of taking quieter, more distributed approaches. If this is true, the fence won’t be of much help. |
Dwight D. Eisenhower:
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Love the post, 1) Would that we were all independent of party and politics 2) Would that our approaches to security were proactive- I believe a secure border necessarily provides beneficial impacts on most, if not all, of the other issues BrianJ mentions. Also, Howard- I don’t think a lot of unsuccessful plots in the US is a good thing. Better to not have plots, especially if there are many failed plots simply because of logistical improbabilities. I know that in Salt Lake in the days immediately preceding and following 9/11, arab men approached Union Pacific on many occasions requesting information regarding the amount of fuel carried by a train, etc. Probably not logistically probable for terror, but someone out there is looking to kill people close by me, if not me and my family. John P., Partisan: The Surge in Iraq could never be beneficial because it is Bush’s war. Partisan: A border fence would do nothing to secure our borders. Partisan: Obama/McCain is full of lies and distortions and is old/muslim |
Howard (17),
It does not matter where the information came from; what matters is whether it is true or false. And we actually know a massive amount of information about 9/11, and most “truther” conspiracy theories have been debunked. We have the things we saw with our own eyes, and the uncoerced testimony of perpetrators. |
arab men approached Union Pacific on many occasions requesting information regarding the amount of fuel carried by a train, etc. Checking the internet would have been much easier:
Many “arab men” rumors are probably groundless. |
Dan, |
…but against principalities, against powers Stonewalled by the C.I.A. By Thomas H. Kean and Lee H. Hamilton
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Dan, you’ve missed the point of Wolfe’s analysis. Wolfe is saying that the basis of the left’s self-perceived moral superiority is illegitimate, because it’s based primarily on adolescent (mis)perceptions. The moral superiority you claim by being “moderate” is equally flawed by Wolfe’s standards, because it, too, is based on adolescent (mis)perceptions. In my experience, there are many, many more mindless moderates than there are mindless Republicans and mindless Democrats — and I say that as someone who went to BYU, which is a veritable Mecca of mindless Republicanism. In fact, I’m accustomed to rolling my eyes when people tell me that they’re moderates, because they’re most often making a lame attempt to look thoughtful about things that they’re mostly ignorant about. Too often, you define yourself as a moderate in order to give your opinion the force of objective truth and define those who disagree with you as operating outside the boundaries of reality so that you don’t have to defend yourself opinions with arguments. You should stop pretending to be straightforward and try expressing your opinions as opinions and actually argue for them. I’m preparing an analysis on the Palin interview. And I’m preparing a post that’s an elaboration of a comment that I made in response to Geoff J. It defends partisanship. |
Dan, I recommend you ask yourself: isn’t it nicer to not have to whore your mind out to the reflexive reactions, stupid slogans and nasty bickering that characterize our politics year in and year out? Isn’t it better to be honest than predictable? The idea that only the “independents” are honest, thoughtful, and non-bickering is laughable. From my experience, there is a predictable arrogance that goes with being a “moderate” or an “independent” so perhaps you are not avoiding predictability afterall. |
War is big business: With White House Push, U.S. Arms Sales Jump
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$32 billion to be spent this year in exported arms alone. Who are we fighting? Dan the Homeland Security man would have us believe we’re fighting a bunch of unsuccessful freelance cowboys who each want to be the next Mohammed Atta. |
Howard, you’re coming across as a bit nutty here, because (a) you’ve made more than 1/3 of the comments on this post, and (b) because you seem to draw sinister conclusions from common, everyday facts that don’t actually imply anything sinister. |
DKL, Governments tend to get out of control without checks and balances, I was offering some examples. Sorry for the number of posts. Please return to the normally scheduled program. |
#22 Howard, I spoke with the UP station manager during a business lunch who had spoken with a few of the men. Long story short, he got in touch with the FBI, 9/11 happened, he was more than worried in Utah for some time after. 1st hand information. |
Nasamomdele (#18) you almost convince me to be a moderate. I consider myself a conservative who is pretty fed up with what the party has become the last 10 – 12 years. But I could agree with most you said. While I don’t see a fence as high priority I see it as a part of an adequate response to the problem. No it won’t remotely solve the problem any more than more drilling for oil will solve the energy problem. Partisans seem to want a silver bullet that solves most of the problem to even consider it and discount any thing that solves part of the problem. |
Jacob, (#25), I agree with a lot you say too. There are plenty of arrogant and superficial moderates as well. It seems any group with a strong ideology can become such easily. The trick is to assume those one disagrees with are thoughtful and considerate as well and try to understand why they think you are wrong. Sadly politics each year (and always in election years) ends up being a serious of talking points that rarely elevates understanding or consideration. |
Howard, What exactly are you arguing, here? Are you arguing for partisanship or arguing about who enemies are, whether or not checks and balances are fruitful, and whether or not we should be in Iraq? DKL, |
nasamomdele, |
DKL (24), Howard, |
nasamomdele, But his description of the enemy doesn’t support a fence let alone all the other stuff that has been “justified†by 911. So I was suggesting that governments tend to take advantage of these situations. They tend to take on a life of their own. For example, $32 billion in arms sales this year isn’t necessary to defend us from unsuccessful Mohammed Atta want-to-be types. |
Dan; You may hate the military-industrial complex. I am far less impressed by our detection, deterrence, and response capabilities and a 25 to 1 kill ratio than I am by D&C 98; Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace. Btw, it’s well worth the read. |
Daniel: I would appreciate partisanship if the parties were about ideas. Our parties used to be about ideas, but now they are not This is blind sentimentalism. When Ronald Reagan ran for president, pundits said that he’d cause WWIII. When Goldwater ran for president, LBJ actually ran an ad implying that Goldwater’s presidency would result in a nuclear holocaust. That was 44 years ago, and it was the most vile political ad to ever appear in mainstream media. If anything, things have gotten better, not worse. It’s also easy to forget that a party-driven newspapers exposed Jefferson’s sexual relationship with his slave and Hamilton’s affair with a friend’s wife in order to discredit them with voters. The history of partisan politics is not a history of ideas. It is the history of a struggle for the power to implement those ideas, and the ends have generally been taken to justify the means. It’s fine to talk about ideas and all. But one must get elected before her ideas matter. |
Howard # 36, I don’t think a 9/11-type scenario is enough to validate a border fence, but it is one very good reason. Dan also provides the issue of immigration reform as an impetus for a secure border. There are many reasons to support such an idea, and terrorism is one of the valid reasons. This is a small example of how the moderate provides a better policy- addressing the issues of illegal immigration and national security, which are often represented in very polemic ways. DKL,
I think that it is a struggle of ideas to a great degree, though I also think it is a struggle for simple power. But whose ideas get implemented wholly depends on who wins the power. The caveat is that I don’t think partisan policies stray very far from each other that often, especially after the primaries. And I don’t understand the ends-means sentence… |
DKL, it’s true that there have been excesses. And anyone who has read 19th century newspapers know that the excesses of the last 15 years are nothing compared with what was. And those who cry for the thoughtful analysis of the 50′s and 60′s forget that it was thoughtful but generally from a single perspective with little way for alternative voices to get heard. (The little watched Firing Line with Wlliam F. Buckley on PBS being one of the few exceptions) Yes Fox is amazingly superficial today and often outright misleading. But at least it’s getting a different perspective out there. (Ditto for the Pacifica network for the far left) The problem with today’s press is that while more views are available the thoughtfulness that was in the 50′s and 60′s is largely missing. Yet you can point to excesses such as the clever bomb ad against Goldwater. Johnson didn’t need to rebroadcast it since all the news stations were chattering about it. But by and large those were more exceptions. I’m not about to say things are better today. Because I don’t think they are. I think they are worse just within my lifetime. But information is out there now and readily accessible in a way it wasn’t 10 years ago let alone prior to that. It’s just most people don’t seek it out. But let’s all be honest. If you want to escape the spin and bad news just don’t watch it. You can go to both campaign sites to see their policies. You can go to a few fact check places to check the spin. You can often even find out their past they don’t want to know. The problem is that the people who tend to decide elections are those least swayed by reason and most swayed by emotion. So can we blame politicians for catering to what these people want? |
I wish people were just less mindless. I don’t think a mindless moderate is any better or worse than a mindless partisan. |
Dan Ellsworth: the discussion went too fast for me, but I wanted to thank you for responding. Note that I criticized you for brushing aside all dissent for a border fence; in your reply you begin to engage those ideas. I think that’s the kind of honesty you demanded in your post. I know that the post isn’t really about the fence, so I’ll hold my thoughts on that. |
What Clark (#41) said. Saved me the trouble. |
What bothers me is that mindlessness has somehow become a virtue in our politics. Note the response to McCain’s stupid yet strong responses to Rick Warren’s questions. No nuance, no thoughtfulness, just gruff pablum for the crowd. Hooray! For some reason people want a president who is “just like them.” What a joke. We should hope for our leaders to be better than us in several ways. |
nasamomdele (30), |
+++ Although to be fair the representative system was designed to take “one of us” and be sent to represent us. Part of the idea was that they were representative of us. Of course in the early period there was a strong aristocracy element to who counted as a representative. During the big democratic movements under Jackson a lot of that changed. My view is that you can find someone who is one of us who is also educated. I think, for all his flaws, Obama fits that mold. Palin doesn’t. McCain, for all his flaws, does as does Biden. The problem is that people aren’t satisfied with a person being one of them. The quest then becomes who is most like us. And that seems unfair if everyone is sufficiently like us. |
Clark, I’ve wondered if the “representative democracy” idea was more focused on Congress and less on Executive and Judicial branches; i.e., we want Senators who represent us, but judges and presidents don’t have to be “one of us.” And since you brought it up, I’m asking. I think there are at least two good reasons why people want leaders who are like them: 1) We want leaders who look out for our needs; if they haven’t lived my life, how will they know what I need/want/value? 2) We want our country’s “persona” to mesh with our own—we don’t want to “feel out-of-place in our own living room.” That’s not to say that these reasons trump all other considerations when voting, but I think picking leaders who are “just like me” isn’t entirely baseless. |
I think many people resent the idea of someone smarter/better qualified/different as their leader. I also think that there is an intense fear of “being talked down to” in this country. Bill Clinton was a master politician because he was whip-sharp in private and able to turn on the folksy charm as Bubba. Al Gore’s loss (I’m willing to call it a tie) was due to his own inability to do this plus Clinton’s scandals. |
arJ, Al Gore was waaaay more charming than “Bubba”! |
Brian, I don’t know on that. That’s a good point. I’m not up on the nuances of that history though. (What I said was just what I remembered from college and that was quite some time ago now) I think the founders weren’t really sure what to do with the Presidency. I’ve been watching the John Adams HBO series and that really comes through there. They were afraid of it becoming a Kingship and terrified it wouldn’t be Kingly enough. I think that’s why some aspects of the Presidency are so muddled. Speaking of the Judges though that’s more interesting. Since it was relatively recent that the idea they should be an experienced judge with lots of thoughts on constitutional law. Even within the last 50 years there were appointments that we’d never stand for now. Turn to the 19th century and the supreme court has some really inexplicable choices unless you think of it as far more political than we do now. i.e. existing not as a court of informed judges but a court limiting what judges could do and being more about representing us. Don’t get me wrong. I think I prefer the current system. What little I read of the 19th century courts scares the heck out of me. Regarding Clinton I think his personal self-destructive streak was far less the problem than his own arrogance. Everyone points to the Lewinsky scandal. While that was destructive in that it preoccupied Clinton, the fact was that with a divided hostile Congress he was limited anyway. (An ideal situation in my book) His real fall was earlier with Health Care and Gays in the Military. He blew it in those early years and created the Republican Revolution (which the Republican leadership quickly squandered – how much of the Contract With America was implemented?) |
Clark, My point is slightly different. It is that Gore might have won were it not for the scandal. |
Ah. I think Gore should have easily won but lost primarily because of how he acted towards Clinton (a lesson McCain has somewhat learned) but also because he was just an awful campaigner. He had everything going for him including (IMO) a weak Republican candidate. That he lost was due to incompetence on his side. Without the scandal he may have ran differently but I don’t think he can in the least blame the scandal for his loss. |
To me (and I think history supports this) it seems impossible for a VP to ever win; their task requires too much balance. If you say, “Elect me ’cause I’m exactly like the Pres I served under,” then people are going to a) doubt you, because no one can possibly be as wonderful as Pres ____, or b) hate you because they hate Pres ____. On the other hand, if you say, “Elect me ’cause I’m better than Pres ____,” then voters will be a) angry at you for criticizing their beloved Pres ____, or b) reject you for the same reasons they disliked Pres ____. Moreover, if you really try to paint yourself as different from the current Pres, voters will wonder why you stood around letting the Pres enact policies you believed were inferior, etc. In other words, I’m amazed that Gore did as well as he did. |
Bush I did pretty good via the VP spot. |
Right, GHW Bush made it. And before him…Van Buren? That’s what I—errr, Elite Robot—meant by “history supports this.” And look who GHW Bush ran against. Are we saying that in order for a VP to win the presidency, he/she must run against someone as compelling as Dukakis? |
It seems to me that being VP didn’t hurt Nixon either. |
Well, he did lose to Kennedy John, although many attribute that to TV. |
I well aware that he lost, but went on to win, and then went on to, ummm, well, maybe he should have stopped while he was ahead. |
In other words, I’m amazed that Gore did as well as he did. I still think that if he’d actually campaigned with Clinton earlier, he could have won one more state. I think Gore’s loss was bad tactics. |
So how do I interpret the fact that my senior year, I got my computer science teacher to sign me out of my lunch hour and the study hall the next period to stay three straight periods in the computer lab? I guess that would have hinted at a future “geek” status (in more ways than one)… |
For those of you independents who miss the sense of belonging that comes from rooting for a political party or ideology every year, I recommend you ask yourself: isn’t it nicer to not have to whore your mind out to the reflexive reactions, stupid slogans and nasty bickering that characterize our politics year in and year out? Isn’t it better to be honest than predictable? Isn’t it nice to have the freedom to approach problems from points of view other than the ones promoted by the interest groups and corporations funding our thinktanks and congressional reelection campaigns? Independence is a wonderful place to be- look around the cafeteria and feel free to sit with whomever you like. This is all true … but then you realize that in the matter of presidential politics, it doesn’t really matter if you’re an independent or not, if you don’t live in a swing state. I might be able to support bbell for president, but living in Texas, we’re all voting for McCain. It doesn’t really matter what I think this year. Now if bbell were to run for my school board … |
arJ, note that Nixon didn’t win while running as a sitting VP. And he won when running against the party of the sitting president. Again, I think a VP winning an election is rare enough to be seen as near impossible. Which makes Gore’s “success” rather stunning. |
I think though Brian when you look at the context it becomes more hard to draw conclusions. Consider Nixon/Kennedy. Nixon wasn’t exactly liked by Einsenhower and there was the infamous TV debate. LBJ was VP and had his meltdown (primarily due to Viet Nam). Without Viet Nam what could we say about that election? It’s generally thought that Bush I won in part due to the strength of the Reagan presidency (despite Reagan finishing weak due to Iran Contra). I think many thought that Clinton mimicked Reagan. Yes there was a scandal but there was a strong economy. Gore inexplicably didn’t run on his record in the Clinton Presidency. Overall he ran a pretty inept campaign and kept coming off as wooden. So you say his “success was stunning.” I say his incompetence was stunning. He kept making mistake after mistake. It was amazing. I honestly thought at the time that it was a gimmie for Gore. Of course I thought that this year with Obama as well. Never underestimate the ability of a Democratic Presidential campaign to self-destruct. Even the exceptions of the last decades – Carter and Clinton are exceptions because of surprising events. Carter came in over Ford because of anti-Nixon backlash as much as anything. (And how the media portrayed Ford) Ford would have had trouble winning against Dukkakis. Clinton won mainly because of the recession and Bush being exhausted after the Gulf War. But even with all that he realistically won because of Perot. Eliminate Perot and it would have been 4 more years of Bush I. |
Clark, you make a good argument. And then there’s also the problem that the sample size in this analysis is too small; how many sitting VPs have ever run in the US? And those are spread out over 200 years! I’d hate to make many comparisons between Jefferson and Adams versus Gore and Bush, for example, simply because the US has changed so much since 1800. In other words, you’ve made me think that the only certainty is that there is far too little to go on. (Man, that Elite Robot in #53 is such an idiot!!) |
Dan #35, Sorry I’m responding so late. I don’t think the parties lack ideas. Like them or not, the platforms of both parties are full of interesting idealistic ideas. The problem is that the candidates and the parties have to dumb themselves down so that the 30-second attention span electorate will turn down their ipods long enough to actually listen and think about the issues at hand. I’m not sure there is a way to force the electorate to educate themselves. But if there was a way to do that, a way to broadcast quality reasoning behind each party’s ideas so that the electorate would internalize what they have to offer, we would have an entirely different kind of political environment. I don’t think its possible though. I think most people are too lazy to pay attention, too lazy to think, ponder and challenge the ramifications of various policy approaches. I hesitate to say it, but perhaps the problem is that we’ve become too democratic (little “d”). |
… so that the electorate would internalize what they have to offer, …” I try to totally disregard what they are offering or saying. They can _say_ anything. Much effort goes into calculating what to _say_. Often, what they say is tailored so much to the current audience, that it often seems at odds with what they said to other audiences. I try to go by their track record. What did they _do_? What are their _trends_ ? What kinds of things did they vote for and against? |
I agree Bookslinger. Ultimately you have to judge each candidate and party by what they do, not just what they say. You can, however, get an indication of what someone will do in office by what they say. If they generally speak in favor of government solutions, you can expect they will vote to empower government to take more action. If they generally speak against government solutions, you can expect they will vote to empower government to take more action… Oh, wait. Your point is well taken. Even if we judge by actions alone, I argue that most Americans lack the desire to actually learn about complex issues and hold elected officials accountable for most of their actions. I’m not sure if this apathy is a result of a lack of energy, interest, intelligence, education or what. |
The electorate has a short memory. Example: Our country gave illegal immigrants amnesty back in the 80′s when Reagan was president. Ok, now think real hard. What has happened with illegal immigration since the 1980′s? (IE, has it increased or decreased?) |
Dan, Happened to stumble over this (old) posting recently. Your mention of “morality plays” being staged in our younger days rings true to me. There are a few events from High School that had no lasting effect on anything in particular, but presented some lessons on humanity that still apply today. In the mist of confusion and distraction that was my youth, some of those staged events still stand out, despite their micro-relevence in the big picture. Today, decades later, some of those events are inidctions on how I’ve changed since then, though, as the current narration under the replayed events sometimes say “….would have done that differently today” Nice to have found you out here in cyber space. |