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I watched the interviews on the Web. I thought she was weakest on the economy questions. When asked what she would do differently to help the economy she regurgitated the standard GOP line about cut taxes, and some undetermined spending, etc. Then Gibson asked “isn’t that what the Bush administration has been doing for the last eight years?” and it seemed to me she didn’t have much of an answer at all to that. Of course this is just the VP so maybe it doesn’t matter that much. Still I had a comment I recently heard from somebody about this being like some bad Disney movie where “a down-home hockey mom is thrust into the VP role out of political expediency and then hilarity ensues when she finds herself the President” ringing through my head as I watched the video. The tale somehow doesn’t seem heartwarming and hilarious when it is real… but who knows — maybe it will be just that if the GOP “agents of change” somehow manage to retain the White House after all. |
DKL, another sound analysis. Much better than most of what I find out there on the net from professional pundits. Geoff, you mean Matt Damon? It was a kind of funny line at first, but I think Palin’s worth more than that. |
While I think Palin did fine in the context of the interview I believe those with doubts of Palin (like me) needed much more than that. While both Obama and Palin are inexperienced at least Obama has thought a lot about these issues. It’s clear Palin hasn’t. While I was hoping McCain would pick Palin prior to his actually doing so the stuff that has come out since has been pretty disheartening. I’m frankly surprised that she doesn’t know that much on these issues. What scares me is that the person she reminds me the most of in all this is George Bush. Don’t get me wrong. Palin is brilliant for McCain. And the media and Obama camp keep doing things that just turn people off. (The Atlantic cover photo scandal being the latest) The fact that ABC edited it so unfairly makes them look bad and makes Palin look sympathetic. Far from making her unappealing it makes her more appealing. That’s because most people probably aren’t going to go look at the transcript for the full interview. So the fact ABC spun it makes it that much more easy for the McCain handlers to spin it. But once we go beyond the spin by the press and both political camps one has to ask. Is she informed enough to take the job? It’s not just about experience but having some questions about the prime issues of the day. I think Obama, especially in foreign policy is wrong. (Although I’m not happy with McCain there either) But at least they’ve thought about it and worry about it. How with two wars and a recent terrorist bombing a political leader can be so naive is frankly scary. (I know most are, but most aren’t asking for my vote) |
Yeah Eric, I looked it up and that was the source of that line alright. Pretty amusing interview. |
About Palin being direct, if you believe in personality theory, she appears to have a very dominant personality. This isn’t surprising since you kind of need to be dominant to be a woman running a state government. The brevity of her answers is just part of who she is. My guess is she doesn’t like long talks on issues, she wants the data so she can make a decision and move on to the next issue. I’m not saying that’s good or bad because it doesn’t speak to the quality of her decisions, but it doesn’t surprise me that others noticed how direct she is. |
There is a very simple reason why Obama has thought out these issues more thoroughly than Palin has–he’s been running for President for years; she’s been running for Vice-President for weeks. Ask her questions about Alaska, and she’ll run rings around everybody. |
“Fifth reaction: Palin answers every question” I think this was her biggest downfall. She didn’t try to finagle (sp?) her way out of any questions as most would do. For instance, the question on the economy when Gibson asked, “What 3 things would you do…?” (what kind of a question is that by the way?), she could have said something like, “I don’t know if I can narrow it down to 3 things, but here’s what we’re going to do…” When asked if admitting Georgia to NATO would lead to war stemming from an invasion, she should have said something along the lines of the fact that admitting Georgia would probably prevent an invasion and thus prevent a war. The more I read about people’s reactions about the Bush Doctrine question (from both sides) really makes it sound like a gotcha question. She still should have had an answer prepared though. |
Very true CS Eric. I’m pretty sure the Iraq War and the Georgian conflict were pretty low on her list of priorities as governor of Alaska. |
“Second reaction: Gibson is boorish” Was this news to you? You must not have watched the Clinton-Obama debate he moderated with Stephanopoulos when the audience in the hall was roundly booing them (the moderators) by the end. Besides her evasions and outright lies, it became clear that, not only has Palin barely ever thought seriously about foreign policy before, but that she has no inkling of how the federal budget works, as evidenced in this exchange, one of many that demonstrated her incoherence: PALIN: I am sure that there are efficiencies that are going to be found in all of these agencies. I’m confident in that. GIBSON: The agencies are not involved in entitlements. Basically, discretionary spending is 18 percent of the budget. |
Here is the actual unedited interview with omitted parts highlighted: http://www.brutallyhonest.org/brutally_honest/2008/09/the-un-edited-g.html This does make ABC look bad. Especially when they cut out most of one and left the “seeing Russia from Alaska” answer as if that’s all she said about it. |
Utterly incoherent and vapid prattling “We need to put government back on the side of the people” and in the next sentence “Government has got to get out of the way” I’m sure that the people in coastal Texas this weekend wish that government would just get out of the way and let the private sector help them just like those once-proud banking titans huddled down on Liberty street wish that Paulson and the Fed would just leave them alone to solve their own problems. |
I agree with a lot of what Clark said. Listening to her, it felt like there was no depth to her answers, but rather she was just regurgitating bullet points crammed into her head in the past few weeks. Obama may have a thin resume as well, but when you listen to him talk at least he sounds like he’s actually thought about these issues at some depth, whether or not you agree with his position. I think her performance won’t hurt her with her staunch supporters and those who identify with her, but I’m not sure how it plays with the undecided. To me she comes off as a joke. I probably wouldn’t have voted for McCain, but have generally found the guy likable enough. His VP pick though completely turned me off. To me she’s much more of an ideologue than a thoughtful or pragmatic personality, which is what I think McCain is and what I generally gravitate towards in politics. I’m still trying to understand why he picked her, although at this point in the race the polls suggest it was a shrewd pick. But five weeks in politics is an eternity and we’ll have to see how it plays out. It will be very strange if it gets all of the way to November and she’s still overshadowing him. I wonder if that would lead to some resentment on his part, or if he could win the election under such circumstances. But right now it’s much more of a Palin vs. Obama race than McCain vs. Obama, which is kind of unprecedented. |
She also doesn’t seem to know what she believes about regulation and government agencies. She wants to “reform the oversight” of certain agencies so that the fearful atmosphere in America can be addressed. What created the atmosphere of fear was the unrestrained greed of those who leant money to those who had no possibility to repay and those who borrowed money with no possibility to repay, and all those who participated up and down the line in order to take their cut, turning a blind eye to reality while the fun lasted. Although she never explains exactly what kind of oversight she’s talking about or how it would have prevented those problems or future problems, her attitude, only moments earlier, of laissez-faire being the answer to everything, makes one wonder if she thinks that too much regulation was the root of the problem. |
I just don’t see how Palin’s performance is neutral for her. Those who weren’t going to vote for her weren’t swayed, those who were undecided were probably disappointed in her performance (i.e., turned off), and I can’t see how those supporting her could be energized by what they saw (this fell far short of her Convention speech). As for my vote, I don’t care at all what she said, but it is an interesting political story. Two things: 2) Bush Doctrine. Yes, it was set up as a “gotcha” question, which was childish of Gibson. As for whether he got it wrong or not, I don’t think he did. I read the post by Charles Krauthammer shortly after it came out and I think he is wrong. As he notes in his article, it has meant many different things including anticipatory self-defense. Just because Bush later added the idea of spreading democracy doesn’t mean that self-defense is no longer part of “the” Bush Doctrine. Anticipatory self-defense is what got the war in Iraq rolling in the first place, so there’s no way to divorce that concept from Bush. Gibson was incomplete in his definition, but not wrong. (And it’s rather funny that pretty much no one uses the original definition that Krauthammer proposed.) |
The man who actually coined the term Talk about dour and self-important–Krauthammer embodies those terms like few others, with or without his glasses. |
Eric Russell, I’m glad you like it. Geoff, the Matt Damon statement is just more raging in impotent fury. Clark and mike d., very few presidential candidates with any resume would have done well in that interview after just 2 weeks campaigning. And few presidential candidates’ first interviews are subject to such scrutiny. (Can you name the first major interview of any other presidential candidate?) There are only so many questions that one can be asked, and eventually enough of them become old hat that that interviews seem much more routine. It really doesn’t have a lot to do with how much the candidate has thought about the issues. Bush, for example, gives a fine interview, but many of his opponents would be unwilling to conceded that he’s thought about the issues. Austin, I’m not sure I take such a reductionist view of Palin’s personality. Most politicians of any stripe want to be in charge, but most of them also love to hear themselves speak. CS Eric, as you can tell from my response to Clark, I agree with you. Tim J, I found it much more disturbing that liberal pundits and bloggers didn’t seem to know that both Biden and Obama support letting Georgia into NATO. But I think that her answering every question is a matter of her not trying to finagle an answer to every question. Bill, You ask, “Was this news to you?” and then proceed to respond as though my answer is “yes.” Just to be clear: No, it wasn’t new to me. Even so, Gibson isn’t always boorish, so that it’s worth noting when he is. You’re accusation that she was evasive and dishonest is just more “Palin Derangement Syndrome.” And your attempts to correct her answer are even less convincing and less informed than your recent attempts to correct me. BrianJ, Palin supporters are either so blind in their support of her that they think she did wonderful, or they realized that there would be a learning curve. |
Peter LLC, when Krauthammer starts allowing his self-importance to interfere with the effectiveness of his interviews with political candidates, then we’ll have something to talk about. |
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Sorry, last part paragraph should not be in block quotes. |
I like Palin. I think you know who she is when she speaks–right or wrong (and I think she’s right most of the time). I don’t feel that way about the other three. |
It’s stuff like this story at The New York Post that gives me serious reservations about Obama. |
DKL, I don’t know, Matt Damon may be on to something. I mean, Pam Anderson and Lindsey Lohan are on that page, as well. We should pay more attention to the star power of America. |
#21 TimJ, That is a tough pill to swallow. My Palin buzz wore off as of late, so I’ve been leaning Obama on the “cranky old man McCain” sentiment- his campaign has been too smeary for me. But Obama is coming off as manipulating the safety of the lives of Americans for political gains. That’s as bad as Bush-1st term. I can take smear over that any day. That is, if the story checks out. |
I’ve been waiting for someone else to corroborate the story as well. I’ll echo sentiments about McCain’s campaign, too. Not good. |
Fair enough, DKL. In other news, Krauthammer also coined the term “Reagan Doctrine.” I think I’m starting to see a pattern. |
Tim, that bit about Obama and Iraq makes me seriously reconsider voting for him. (I’d decided over the weekend to commit but am now rethinking) The second thing that makes me seriously rethink it is Obama’s economic advisors and their involvement with the current economic mess not to mention Obama’s place in Fanny Mae contributions. It’s now coming out just how corrupt their involvement with congress was and Obama’s smack in the middle of it all. |
Pam Anderson Whoah, she’s still Canadian even if she does have US citizenship. Pay her no mind. |
DKL, I agree about the editing and the camera angles. I kept wondering why on earth they were shooting them both from the side. It was a very ineffective presentation. I also agree that Gibson wasn’t the best of interviewers. Too bad Tim Russert isn’t around to do an interview. Frankly, I have to give Palin props for not going on Larry King first or doing a softball Fox interview. Of course with Hannity (sp?) coming up next I’m a bit less impressed. But frankly I’m surprised that you spend so much of your post going after Gibson rather than focusing on Palin, as if it is either his fault or the fault of the camera angle that she looked bad in any way. Frankly, this was a Rorschach test. If you are a die-hard supporter you saw her as the victim of an interview that wasn’t properly “deferential.” If you already thought she was unqualified this interview simply confirmed it. The question is what did swing voters think? I’m guessing that they aren’t going to focus on Gibson the way DKL has since he isn’t the enigma currently being examined. They are either going to impressed that she answered all the questions or bothered by the fact that she seemed to be repeating lines that have been fed to her and wasn’t at all the Palin that knocked it out of the park at the convention. Personally I was unimpressed, but I would guess that this interview hurt her only a little with undecideds. I’ll note that Mark Shields has said that the “didn’t blink” bit was the worst part of the interview. I agree. :) Also interesting was the reaction of George Will on This Week. By the end of the roundtable he was visibly angry because of the conversation surrounding the Palin interview and was basically giving bratty two-word answers. I’ve never seen him behave that way before. I generally think that he gives some of the best commentary on TV yet on Sunday he was barely able to keep his composure. Very strange. |
I will say that McCain’s superficial and often frankly misleading campaigning the past two weeks has really turned me off even if it is obviously being successful. |
What was Will angry about? |
Clark, I’m not entirely sure. The other panelists didn’t seem to take him seriously when he was defending Palin. I remember thinking that his defense was particularly strongly worded yet not backed up by much logic, which is uncharacteristic of Will. Then they had a disastrous discussion of McCain’s sex-ed for kindergartners ad, which started off poorly when they were unable to show the actual ad, which meant everyone was discussing it from memory, and everyone seemed to have a slightly different recollection of what it stated. In my mind the ad (which I’ve seen several times) is worse that anyone on the panel made it out to be. In any case, Will defended the ad vigorously saying that the only mistake was that it used the word “accomplishment” when nothing was accomplished. He also went on about the difference between liberals and conservatives on the issue of sex-ed, said that telling kids to be wary of strangers does constitute sex-ed, and should be left to parents. After that he looked several times like he might explode but to his credit simply gave two word answers from that point on. The other panelists were clearly looking at him as if something had happened. I wonder if the connection he shares with Palin (having a son who has Down’s Syndrome) makes him less objective when the subject comes to her. He certainly has no love at all for McCain and has articulated that repeatedly, so it is strange to see him become partisan and emotional suddenly. |
arj, that’s a fair point (viz., that I devote a lot of time to Gibson). I concentrate on the Gibson side, because so much has already been said about Palin’s answers, and the partisan divide that castigates her and praises her yields (unsurprisingly) predictable results. There’s more to glean from the over all performance taken as a whole. So I think it’s enough to say that she did fine, but not spectacular, and to conclude that it’s not going to have a very big impact. Also, I don’t think that any of Palin’s answers lend themselves to a close examination. Most interviews are this way, unless the answerer says something manifestly bone-headed or unusually brilliant. So I don’t think that there’s much to be gained by (say) quoting her on Georgia, noting that she finessed the question of whether we’d go to war with Russia, and concluding that it’s about the same answer that Biden and Obama would give. I try not to repeat conventional wisdom or talking points in my posts unless I have something of my own to add to it. People can get that elsewhere. I feel that too much of the reaction to Palin’s specific answers are governed by conventional wisdom, both left and right, and I don’t have much to add. Lastly, given how conventional Palin’s answers were, I’m frankly more interested in the dynamics of the interview and what it says about the media’s involvement in the political process this season. |
Clark, you can view the roundtable segment of This Week online here. It’s not clear why Paul Begala is given a seat at that table. It’s worth noting that the discussions tend to be more intelligent when Kokie Roberts is there. For my part, the show will always be “This Week with David Brinkley” to me, because the show has never been the same since he left. |
Geoff, the Matt Damon statement is just more raging in impotent fury Hehe. Yeah, but it is a funny comment and that is worth something right? Besides, who among us hasn’t wanted to be part of a Disney Movie at some point in our lives? (Maybe something like Freaky Friday or The Apple Dumpling Gang) This might be our chance to do just that! |
Agreed on the mixed bag reaction. It is pretty obvious Palin has not been in national politics very long. Gibson should be embarrassed about the “exact words” part of the interview. That is just an egregious lift of a sentence fragment. It’s not the kind of thing I expect from a serious anchor like Gibson. I was genuinely surprised to see something that dumb (and unfair) in this interview. However, it did yield my favorite comment of the week when ECS realized she was beating Palin over the head with a totally bogus question/answer and she was only able to pause her line of attack long enough to say “fair enough” before continuing where she left off. Hilarious. |
DKL, The question is whether she needs to continue to be spectacular after her convention speech. Repeating her lines from it for several days has taken her about as far as it can. The interview was clearly not in the same league as the speech. She is the engine that has given the McCain campaign new life. Does she need to continue to be great to sustain the lead? If she turns out to have been a one-trick pony will the benefit she gave the campaign fade away? I don’t think McCain can win using the tricks that were used against him in South Carolina, they’re already turning people off. I think he needs Palin to both motivate the base and get swing voters to give him a second look. It is hard to play to both of those groups at once, I don’t envy the challenge she is facing. |
I would have preferred Russert as well. He can be a bulldog without the condescension whereas Gibson is all condescension and no bulldog. I’m surprised the GOP hasn’t used Palin’s celebrity status though. Why not get her on Leno or Letterman? Are they worried they might ask her a legitimate question? |
arj: The question is whether she needs to continue to be spectacular after her convention speech. Yes. I answer that by saying that the impact of the speech will be zero. On the balance, this is a plus, because it buys the McCain campaign time. In other words, she’s lived to fight another day. As far as Will on the roundtable portion of This Week, I just watched it. Will was defending McCain’s sex-education ad. And he was fundamentally right. Many, many parents think that it’s inappropriate to teach Kindergarteners to avoid sexual predators. The opponents simply asserted that the sex-ed promoted by Obama was reasonable, which was simply beside the point. The fact that they believe that that level of sex-ed is reasonable has nothing to do with whether the ad is dishonest. Is there another segment to the roundtable that I’m not seeing on the online video? |
I think the issue is less how well she performs in an interview than just getting up to speed on the issues. Obviously her views don’t matter that much since she has to ape the McCain position. Just like George Bush sr. had to ape Reagan’s views as VP even though he clearly disagreed with some of them. What I think many are worried about is less that she can be PR master than that she is capable of taking over if McCain dies. And that is a valid worry, despite folks pointing to very inexperienced Presidents like Lincoln. I will say this. Biden has come out fighting this week and is making pretty cogent attacks on McCain’s policies such as health care (where he’s embarrassing), Iran (ditto), and so forth. I appreciate that and wonder if Palin could possibly do the same. (I hope so) The big interesting thing that will develop this week is how Obama distances himself from the current economic mess of last week and this week. He simply has very close ties to both companies. |
DKL, Sorry for the threadjack. On the broadcast there were a few more moments of interaction including a shot of Claire Shipman looking like she is dreading the green room. Watching some of it again on-line I can’t pin-point where he gets mad, but clearly his answer of “Yes, absolutely” on the values politics question was not all he wanted to say. I’ve just looked at the green room and George is a little pissy there but not like what I expected. Also, he expresses some disdain for McCain (and Obama) in that segment. |
Tim J: I don’t see the gross editing of the Russia neighbor comment. Palin’s comments are not taken out of context. Gibson’s question challenged Palin’s “insider knowledge” of Russia and Palin’s answer indicated that she has no special insight; she has the same insight as every citizen in Alaska. I think it was a baited question, and she took the bait. (as DKL asserts, she answers every question; in this case, a “bad” question got a “bad” answer.) Her second answer—that the world is small and Russia is important to us and us to them—was much better and should have been her first and only answer. As for the delay in setting a withdrawal date, those are pretty harsh accusations. Thanks for posting the link. I’ll be very disappointed if they hold up—but for now I don’t have any reason to believe them. |
BrianJ, If you look at the quote above, almost all of it was edited out and made it look like the “We can see Russia…” as the only thing she said. Palin’s answer preceding that and the follow-up Q&A that you mention, were omitted, making her answer seem worse than what it was. |
Tim J, What do you think of Reagan getting the hostages released the moment he was inaugurated? |
I think the events are debatable. And Reagan would have won regardless (which is beside the point, I know). And I have reasons to doubt the story in the NY Post. I just hope somebody follows-up to either corroborate or discredit the story. |
I have to agree with Tim on the Palin interview. ABC was outright trying to make Palin look bad. The Lincoln quote (which is what was most troubling to many) was particularly egregious. While Palin didn’t look good on Russia at least in the unedited text she didn’t look like an idiot. Brian, like you I’m skeptical of those reports. Iraqis aren’t beyond spreading lies to get what they want. (One could argue that it was uncritical acceptance of what Iraqis were saying that got us in this mess in the first place) However if it turns out to be true then that’s it for Obama. The other bit of news I’m finding deeply troubling his his connection to Fanny Mae and to the bank that collapsed today. Obama wants to throw the discussion into economics – a place where McCain is quite weak. But if the stories coming out today are true then Obama’s own economic advisors are responsible for many of the problems. Merely kicking the ball at Bush and hoping to tarnish McCain won’t help there. |
Clark, Are you disturbed that a bank that McCain’s son was on the auditing board of collapsed last week? |
Tim J, Of course he would have won! He had just been sworn in! |
Isn’t the “October Surprise” debate that Reagan negotiated for the hostages to be released until after the election so as not to sway votes towards Carter? Even if the hostages had been released before the election, Reagan would have won. And Reagan’s camp was cleared: |
“Are you disturbed that a bank that McCain’s son was on the auditing board of collapsed last week?” From February to July. I’m not sure how he would have been able to sabotage the bank in that amount of time. |
John, I hadn’t heard of that. The difference being I’m not voting for McCain’s son. To be frank unless McCain was trading interests I don’t care. The problem with Fanny Mae was that the Senate had oversight and wasn’t exercising it. Fanny Mae was giving huge donations to ensure that. And guess who got the most? (Yes, Obama and Clinton) Now McCain was in there as well, but way down the list. But yes, I’m pretty upset at McCain on the economy and foreign policy. As I’ve said many, many times this is an election of the lesser of two evils. |
Obama issues a denial the Post story: |
Clark, I do find it a bit odd that I’m stuck defending ABC and Gibson, but I think it’s a bit harsh to say that they were trying to make her look bad. That implies that Gibson asked the question about “God’s plan” in bad faith. Those questions are prepared by interns and then vetted by the journalist. Gibson didn’t willfully distort, and the interns were probably just naively grabbing something that they’d seen elsewhere that was published in bad faith. In other words, both Gibson and his interns made assumptions about Palin, and that had embarrassing results for them. Don’t get me wrong, this was certainly irresponsible and it says tons about the effect that bias has within the media, but I don’t believe that it’s likely they willfully distorted things. If you want to look at hatchet jobs, take a look at the editorial in The Washington Post that takes that portion of the interview and uses Gibson’s quote-fragment at face value in order to denounce Palin. By the time the editorial was written, enough had been published on the how Gibson misused the quote that even negligence would constitute bad faith at this point. Here’s what they say:
Now, the fact that neither Gibson nor ABC never backtracked to correct the error — I agree that’s bad faith. |
Tim J: I think we agree. I thought you were arguing that ABC’s editing twisted Palin’s respectable answer into something reproachable. On the contrary, you argue that it made “her answer seem worse than what it was.” I agree with that. Thanks for posting Obama’s denial. You’d make a terrible journalist, you know; you’re too balanced and fair. You’re probably even {snicker} interested in the truth {snort!}. |
Tim J (48), Ok, makes sense. |
You think Gibson was just ignorant when he quoted the AP rather than looking to original source and then calling Palin on it? i.e. the “never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity” move? That might account for Gibson but not the editing. I think the bias was less anti-McCain than it was sensationalism. (I think that true in general – a lot of what partisans of either party complain about can be explained by the media reporting things so as to generate ratings as much as possible) |
“As I’ve said many, many times this is an election of the lesser of two evils.” So is every election. But we are lucky that we have by far the best two candidates that were on offer in the primaries and that have run for the past several election cycles. |
The lies in the interview (or if you prefer, “inconsistencies”) have been well-documented. Here’s just one of the most obvious that makes me doubt whether she is the person in the United States who knows the most about energy: |
To add, I’m not saying the unedited Palin was good. As I said even after reading the full context I became more worried about Palin. However I think it pretty clear that ABC’s actions weren’t accidental. They were playing it up to make things more controversial. |
Here’s the worst part about the interview: They spread it over two days and four shows. Just run a special and show the whole interview at once! It shouldn’t be a chance to grab ratings, it should be an opportunity to do serious journalism. That to me was the most shameful part of it. And they didn’t even have four programs worth of footage. They repeated bits here and there, so half the time you were bored because you’d already seen it and then you noticed that there was a bit more this time than last. |
Bill, I strongly disagree. Even though I absolutely hate the Clintons I’d vote for Hilary in a second because she’s extremely knowlegable and more importantly pragmatic. So she wouldn’t do anything extreme. Obama I’m convinced would. Both Obama and McCain remind me of Bush in that. Likewise while I don’t like Romney much I think he’d have been a great pick for President although I’d probably have picked Clinton above him for reasons I’ll not go into here. The point being I’m not at all convinced the best choice of what was available was made in either primary. I will say though that something both parties face is that good people aren’t running. And I think the press is responsible for a lot of that. While it is true that many of the last few years have been lesser of two evils with the choice often being hard (Bush/Kery; Bush/Gore; Clinton/Dole) it hasn’t always been that way. I think Reagan was an exciting candidate and that was in my lifetime. I think Bush I was as well. And I think that the Bush I / Clinton election was a pretty exciting and compelling election more or less screwed up by an insane Texas billionaire. (Please, please can we get instant runoff voting so that these 3rd party candidates don’t throw the race) |
I understand why people think this interview was a Rorschach test, but I began watching the interview as an ardent supporter and ended up feeling really embarrassed. It’s like 1999 all over again: back then, I read about this awesome Bush son who was a sharp and effective Harvard MBA governor of a large state, and when I heard him actually talk, I came to appreciate the weighting of Harvard’s legacy admissions. Now, in Palin’s defense, I thought the question about the “Bush Doctrine” (I put that in quotes because THERE IS NO FREAKING “BUSH DOCTRINE”!!!) was so ridiculous, it makes my blood boil. The only appropriate question along those lines is, “What are your feelings about obscure academic debates over which of a number of ideas constitutes the Bush Doctrine?” Gibson didn’t ask that, and the question he did ask had journalistic value equivalent to When did you stop cheating on your husband? |
Once she knew she was under consideration she should have invested several hours a week reading back issues of The Economist. The fact that she didn’t says something about what she thought of her own chances. |
ARJ, You could not be more correct- a week reading the Economist would have been the best possible preparation. Palin’s interview was an unfortunate reminder that there’s no substitute for reading. |
I’m not sure the Economist would have led to better answers. I think the problem is she hasn’t been interested in the issue. And you can’t read yourself out of that in a week of a single magazine. Plus she’s not apparently the studious type judging from her college career. |
Good point, Clark. All the Economist issues in world won’t help someone who is simply not curious or “hungry.” |
Bill: The lies in the interview (or if you prefer, “inconsistencies”) have been well-documented. I love it! You’re an example of Palin Derangement Syndrome at it’s worst (or at it’s best, depending how its reckoned)! The best you can do is charge them with using numbers from the Resource Development Council for Alaska, which uses a methodology that exaggerates Alaska’s energy production by averaging over long periods to make up for a recent drop. If that’s a lie, then I’m Mickey Mouse and you’re a genius. I predict that one of these days, you’ll get out of bed, take a shower, put on some clean clothes, get a job, and vote for Sarah Palin. |
Your track record with predictions is not good. |
Too bad for you! |
“Wrong. If Gibson wanted to ask how Palin felt about preventative war, then he should have asked… Instead, Gibson asked Palin about the nebulous and infrequently used term Bush Doctrine and then defined it incorrectly himself.” Actually DKL, I’d suggest you take another closer look at this ‘Bush Doctrine’ because, as with most ideas it has evolved and today for almost all the world the Bush Doctrine is primarily about ‘preemptive attacks’. It changed especially after the Iraq invasion, although you are write that Krauthammer coined the term. Even wikipedia recognizes this! |
I was considering quoting the Wikipedia article on Bush Doctrine in my post, but decided not to due to my concerns about the length of this post. Even by the definition offered at Wikipedia, Gibson got it wrong. I’d suggest you take another closer look at the Krauthammer article on the ‘Bush Doctrine.’ It explains why Gibson is wrong within the context of the evolution of the doctrine. |
I wonder what you actually read. Point was that for the entire world the meaning of the Bush Doctrine has changed over the years. Today it is actually what Gibson briefly summarized, even for wikipedia. You should re-read that wikipedia article if that’s where you got your information from (which would be cheap!) Oh, I did write in #69 “…although you are write that Krauthammer coined the term”, guess it should have been ‘right’? Too complicated with spelling mistakes, hey? |
It is mind-boggling that an overarching presidential doctrine on foreign policy has as its authoritative documents…wikipedia and a Krauthammer column. My response to Gibson’s question about the Bush Doctrine would have been “It’s amazing how low the bar is for an authoritative declaration of a presidential foreign policy doctrine.” If McCain becomes president, I’m going to start a MySpace page where I’ll articulate the McCain Doctrine. I figure as long as I’m the first to do it, it will be authoritative. |
#72 Its that they have so much power and influence, and a thumb on, what, 10000 nuclear war heads or more? We have to sort things out and collate them into clear terms and teachable terms such as Bush Doctrine, Reagan Doctrine….etc |
RE: This Week RE: Palin vs. Gibson But Palin–her tone seemed quite combative. I realize this is the risk women run–they want to seem in control and when they speak authoritatively, people accuse them of being overbearing. OK, I wouldn’t trade places with her for anything, either. I’ll just say, she sounded very defensive, and that did not impress me. I agree that this “first interview” will likely have no long-term effect–it was just something that needed to be endured. Like childbirth. It is amazing to me how this has become an Obama/Palin race. |
Clark, I wasn’t talking about one week of reading the magazine. My point is that for several months while she has been under consideration she should have been studying just in case to strengthen her weak spots. I would hope that a governor would be up on current events anyhow. The fact that her answers demonstrated a lack of natural curiosity is frightening. I want my VP to live and breath this stuff. |
Carlos: I wonder what you actually read. Then I’ll be perfectly clear: The Wikipedia article says “Later it came to include additional elements, including the controversial policy of preventive war,… a policy of supporting democracy around the world,… willingness to pursue U.S. military interests in a unilateral way.” According to Wikipedia, the Bush Doctrine has multiple elements. Gibson takes the term “Bush Doctrine” to be totally given over to preventative war. That’s like saying that the ignition system in the car is the spark plugs or the coil. Dan Ellsworth: It is mind-boggling that an overarching presidential doctrine on foreign policy has as its authoritative documents… wikipedia and a Krauthammer column. Krauthammer is arguably the most informed commenter in the pundit-class on American foreign policy. You may not know that. I think it may fall outside the reality boundaries of your “moderate” outlook. ;) |
arj: The fact that her answers demonstrated a lack of natural curiosity is frightening. You know I love you, John. But I do get tired of liberals trying to define the political worthiness of candidates in terms of the personal angst they feel about policy. It honestly strikes me as more than a bit pedantic: “I’m thoughtful enough to be thoughtful about whether candidates are thoughtful!” Personally, I stand for diversity, because I understand that intelligence and thoughtfulness come in all different shapes and sizes. arj: I want my VP to live and breath this stuff. That’s why you’ll never be a presidential candidate (with all due respect). There’s nothing more to VP choices than politics — ever. When Roosevelt was on his deathbed, he chose his VP based on politics. |
DKL, I know Krauthammer is razor sharp- I’ve always liked him. But the idea that he or any other single commentator has the right to issue a pronouncement that sets the President’s foreign policy doctrine in stone, is ridiculous.
Exactly. It’s not a doctrine; it’s a set of different theories and approaches that were tested by the administration. A foreign policy doctrine is characterized by one specific idea that can generally be articulated in very few words, or sometimes one word: “Deterrence,” or “Detente.” |
Dan Ellsworth: But the idea that he or any other single commentator has the right to issue a pronouncement that sets the President’s foreign policy doctrine in stone, is ridiculous. That’s why I link to the article. He actually argues the point — convincingly. Dan Ellsworth: The only thing more pathetic than Gibson’s question has been people’s perception that with that question, he somehow exposed her lack of understanding of something significant. Agreed. |
DKL (77), I agree with ARJ on this point- it doesn’t bother me that she doesn’t lay awake at night mulling over foreign affairs. What bothered me was, in her answers I detected zero interest in how the rest of the world works. |
DKL, while I agree with what you say about VP choices I think in this case it is different for two reasons. (1) many of us think the VP spot ought be more important (and Bush made it more important with Cheyney’s power) and (2) many of us worry about McCain’s health so the VP spot is slightly more important than with Obama. (And while Biden has huge flaws they aren’t the kinds of flaws Palin has) So your point is true but irrelevant. I think many of us worry what a Pres. Palin would do – especially after 8 years of George Bush! |
While I think Krauthammer has been an idiot as often as not (although he is among the best on Fox) I think he was convincing on this point. And his argument was more complex than “I invented the ‘Bush doctrine.’” I think he’s completely correct although that’s merely a slam on Gibson and not something that makes Palin look much better. (Her correct response should have been that the Bush doctrine has been taken to mean many things depending upon who is using the term – my feeling is that we ought…) |
Dan, I’d find that more convincing if I didn’t remember so vividly the liberal objection to Reagan that he saw the world in simplistic terms, had no intellectual curiosity, and generally lacked a sophisticated enough framework to handle the rigors of the presidency with the necessary nuance. In short, this is a very predictable and tired argument. You can tell when the left finds a Republican presidential ticket to be threatening, because they always call one person on the ticket stupid: Reagan, Quayle, GW Bush, and now Palin. Perhaps the reason why Obama can’t manage to run a new, post-political campaign is because Democrats aren’t ready to be post-political. They’re too dependent on the same, failing, pat political formulae of Democratic days-of-old, and Obama can’t win without using them. |
Does it bother any Mormon Republicans that Palin is of the same evangelical types that sunk Romney for his being Mormon? Don’t you think if she’d been in the primaries she might have out-Huckabeed Mike Huckabee? |
Clark, Krauthammer has only recently started to appear on Fox. He won the Pulitzer Prize in 1987, and he’s been writing and commenting on politics and foreign policy for decades. It should come as no surprise that he also coined the term, “The Reagan Doctrine.” He’s coined many terms that are common in discussions among foreign policy wonks. So, in addition to arguing convincingly in his article, he actually is something of an expert in his own right on the nomenclature of professional foreign policy analysis. Krauthammer is most well known for taking an eclectic approach to foreign policy that is difficult to classify, because it adopts portions of a Kirkpatrick-style realism (which used to be called neo-conservative, but is closer to the realism of the past than present-day neoconservatism, but it’s different enough from run-of-the-mill realism to emphasize that this is not the Kissenger/Metternich-style of realism — which is ripe for a revival, by the way) and portions of the idealism typically identified with the current crop of neo-conservatives (also, of course, rejecting key portions of both). I don’t think that Krauthammer not as smart as Kirkpatrick was. But Krauthammer is still alive, and he’s smarter than the current crop of neo-conservatives, who lack a voice as powerful as Kirkpatrick’s. But Krauthammer gets extra marks for actually inventing his own style of foreign policy. |
DKL, McCain has enunciated clearly what he thinks of the office of VP. The only thing he thinks he needs one for is political purposes. I hope he loses, but if he wins I hope he’s right. |
sl: Does it bother any Mormon Republicans that Palin is of the same evangelical types that sunk Romney for his being Mormon? Don’t you think if she’d been in the primaries she might have out-Huckabeed Mike Huckabee? That’s an interesting question. I know that the Utah Democrats had tried to paint her as an anti-Mormon, and then backed off. There’s an interesting thread on Palin’s membership to Assemblies of God and what implications that has on her attitude toward Mormons at Feminist Mormon Housewives. |
I’ll start concerning myself with Palin’s performance, weak as it was, as soon as The One submits himself to similar scrutiny — regarding his own “hubris” not to mention his lack of any accomplishments aside from campaigning and writing books about himself. As Austin Hill points out at Townhall.com, this has yet to happen. Something tells me Charlie Gibson has some free time this weekend… |
Clark: Krauthammer wasn’t convincing in his article because even he got it wrong. He clearly shows that “Bush Doctrine” means many different things, thus Gibson’s mistake was in restricting to only one meaning. Krauthammer, however, argues that Gibson used an outdated/obsolete meaning. |
arj: I am not claiming that the choice was about anything but politics. I think I’ve demonstrated an understanding of that. I’m simply stating what appeals to me. Right. I’m making the larger point: No VP is chosen for anything but politics. Palin is the model VP choice, not the exception. |
Sarahcuda, |
Mechanically she seemed to to just fine. Gibson sucked of course. My problem was with the substance of her answers (except for the Bush Doctrine debacle). The McCain camp must have known these questions were coming and yet she ends up sounding like a female George W. Bush. I think her advisers could only do so much. This is who she is. I don’t think she changes overnight after a few looks at the Economist. |
DKL, I’d like to hear your take on Brooks’ latest. It was Palin’s stance on corruption that sold me on her initially, and I still love that about the McCain/Palin ticket, but the Gibson interview gave me the same heebie-jeebies a lot of conservatives have about her. |
DKL, I’m talking about his years at FOX. He may have been good in the 80′s and early 90′s but he’s way past his prime. I used to like William Kristol too but he’s become a self-parody in the last 6 years. |
Dan, that’s a good piece which sums up my view perfectly. Here’s the kicker line.
Bush has to make one reconsider populism. Unfortunately we have an election between two populist forces. |
BTW – did anyone notice the “denial” of that Obama-Iraq bit? Is it just me or is their denial acknowledging most of the facts and just saying it was because Bush shouldn’t decide and things should be left for the next President? Ugh. If that’s the best denial they have I think Obama might be over. Here’s what Zebari (the Iraqi source) said, “he asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington.” Here’s what the Obama camp replied with:
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Dan, here’s Drezner’s expansion of Brooks. It’s very good as well. It sums up why McCain’s tactics are apt to be successful and really gets at what I perceive as a huge problem in politics and the press regarding people juding based upon facts. |
Yeah, not a very good denial at all. I’m waiting for someone (anyone?) else in the media to pick up this story and do something (anything) with it. |
I’m not so concerned that Sarah Palin didn’t know the specifics of the so-called “Bush Doctrine”, but she appeared completely ignorant with respect to some very fundamental underpinnings of recent foreign policy decisions during the interview. (This ignorance was compounded by the fact that she thinks the view from her house gives her some sort of relevant experience as an “observer” of Russia). Others have said this, and so will I. I’m not concerned that Palin flunked Gibson’s pop quiz. What concerns me is her lack of curiosity with respect to the world outside Wasilla. Thanks, but no thanks, Sarah Palin. |
Oh, and the nations’ “founders” were hardly in agreement with respect to the qualifications of voters, let alone elected officials. If it were up to our “founders”, state legislatures would determine the outcome of the presidential elections, not voters. See Article II, Section I of the U.S. Constitution. |
I’m certainly not the sort that sees founder’s philosophy as akin to the innerrant word of God. (Which is how some Mormons appear to take them) As you said there were pretty big disagreements on many issues. Further there were some policies such as not having an elected Senate that clearly were bad. However there were some general ideas or themes that seemed consistent across the board. (If not unanimous) |
Clark, why do you see it as clearly bad to have state legislatures choose U.S. Senators? |
Because you end up with what you have in Canada (where there is no elected Senate). The people picked to go into the Senate end up being power-brokers who did favors for the parties in question rather than really people concerned with the issues. It’s all about trading influence. You end up with two situations. Either people voting to stop reform because their interests are affected (the power brokers) or else you end up with a rubber stamp Senate who draw big paychecks with little real government action. I think the Senatorial reforms were massively important. |
Clark, in Canada it’s basically just the prime minister picking new senators, who then hold their seats until they retire, right? I think that’s different than the officeholders being elected, and reelected, by each state’s legislature. A federal legislative body whose members’ chief purpose is to keep their states happy doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me. |
Clark, the election of Senators by the state legislature gave states a de facto veto on Federal laws when a majority the states didn’t like them. Though it’s not covered in civics classes or government classes, the competing arms of government and the checks and balances system wasn’t just two a two dimensional system that ran flat across the Federal branches, it also ran up and down between the states and the Federal government. Without direct election of Senators, there is no check. Power simply runs down from the Federal level, and a Supreme Court is considered “federalistic” for saying that minimum wage laws don’t apply to state governments. This isn’t an argument for Senators elected by the state legislatures (which is different from “unelected Senators”), but it’s a brief comparison (contrasting?) of the power dynamics of the systems from a political science point of view. |
DKL, the election of Senators by the state legislature gave states a de facto veto on Federal laws when a majority the states didn’t like them Only if you assume that “states” and “state legislature” are equivalent. I’d be scared to death of who Utah’s state legislature might select. |
Actually, I intend “states” to refer to the state as a political unit, not as a collection of voters. This is a proper way to refer to states; the Constitution, for example, is replete with this usage (and my analysis works using this usage, too, and not only by assuming that states are the same as their government). The voters have an impact on the government in much the same way the board of directors has an impact on the way a company is run. |
John, I agree, but let’s be honest. Would it really be worse than Hatch? But while the general theory of DKL is correct it’s the implementation that’s a problem. As I said in places without an elected Senate it typically ends up being an appointment to reward ‘helpers’ (much like far too many ambassadorships are). |
Clark, the history of the pre-direct-election Senate belies that notion. In practice It’s difficult to get the majority of very many legislatures to reward “helpers.” The 19th century Senate was actually less impacted by the machine politics of its day than other elections. |
Regarding Brooks, he’s got his history wrong. The modern conservative movement begins in the 1950s, with William F. Buckley leading the way and bringing disparate branches of conservatism together to stand “athwart history.” It’s misleading to say that this is an elitist movement. Nothing embodies the approach that came out of Buckley’s leadership better than Buckley’s own statement:
To hear Brooks speak of it, you’d think that early conservatives were advocates of bureaucracy. I also think that it’s a bit late to claim that Bush’s tenure has been anti-establishment, since people derided him during much of his presidency for being told what to do by Dick Cheney. Whatever else one says about Dick Cheney, he’s as “establishment” as it gets. Furthermore, Bush was a successful and popular governor of one of our largest states (geographically and population-wise) and from one of America’s most powerful political families. Whatever else one may say about him, it’s very difficult to say that he’s not “establishment.” That said, I’ll go further than he does about “people vs. establish” dynamic is nonsense. When you have “people” taking on the “establishment” you usually get something closer to the French Revolution than an American election. For my part, I’m a lot less worried about Palin becoming presidents than Californians should have been by Arnold becoming governor. Moreover, if you look at the history of the presidency, it doesn’t bear out the notion that the Senate is good training grounds for the presidency. Since both Obama and McCain are Senators, we may do best to start a write-in campaign. I agree that the founders certainly did not share Lincoln’s famous vision of government by the people for the people. It was more like, “government by the landowners for the landowners.” |
Does it bother any Mormon Republicans that Palin is of the same evangelical types that sunk Romney for his being Mormon? Don’t you think if she’d been in the primaries she might have out-Huckabeed Mike Huckabee? It does a little, I will admit. But (a) she’s running for Veep, not Prez, (b) I’ll still take her over Obama/Biden, and (c) I’m hoping she doesn’t have to take over. If she ever runs for prez, then I’ll get worried. Plus, my state is going Republican anyway, so electorally, I don’t have much of a wolf left to hunt… |
I think you’re taking it somewhat differently than he meant it. I think he meant that figures like Buckley weren’t populists but thought about the issues. I always took Buckley’s comments more as a slam on Harvard than as an endorsement of populism. Buckley and others were always skeptical of populism of the sort we see today. Doing a quick google here’s two examples. One on Edwards as populist or on Goldwater or on McGovern. Buckley doesn’t use populist in a positive fashion. |
(Although he did praise Reagan uniting the kinds of conservativism via a populist streak) |
Clark, Shockingly enough, we could do much worse than Hatch, bad as he is. For example, we could have any of the leaders of the legislature. Or, shudder, Bishop. |
DKL or random John, could you move a comment of mine under the “We are Family” post out of moderation? It’s very innocent, I promise. |
John, I just did. Thanks for the heads up. |
Clark, ECS, and others, I think that it’s difficult to argue that someone who went from the PTA to the governorship is not interesting in anything outside of her community. If it were me in that interview (or anyone else commenting here, or pretty much anyone in Congress), we’d look much, much worse on every front. I dare say, we’d look pretty stupid. |
DKL, I have no doubt that you and several others here would have done a better job. Whether you’d light a fire under a moribund Republican party is another question, and I think public perception of the interview has as much to do with the excitement she has caused as with her actual performance in the interview. Plus you’d look better than her when shot from the side. |
John, I’ve done Mormon Matters podcasts with John Dehlin and others, which is a very friendly environment talking about talking about topics that I know a lot about and that I was able to prep for. I felt like I was lucky to just sound halfway decent. And that was just audio. |
This Brett Stephens editorial at the Wall Street Journal makes many of the points I’ve made here, plus some additional ones. It reflects my feelings pretty well. |
DKL, Are you suggesting that Palin didn’t know a lot about the topics and that she hasn’t been prepping? :) |
Not at all. I was just describing an environment that was set up to allow me to succeed. The contrast with Palin’s environment was that it was a friendly environment (I had a very good, non-adversarial, friendly relationship with everyone involved), that it was much more narrowly focused, and the presence of several people made it easy for me to pick and choose what I spoke about in order to avoid speaking up in areas where my knowledge wasn’t up to snuff. Even with all that, it wasn’t easy, and having listened to myself on those podcasts, I was frequently unhappy with how I sounded. |
John, I was half joking with that comment about Hatch. I don’t like him and think he has the mindset of messianism that Obama has but without anyone else believing him (unlike Obama who has a lot of true believers). But I could name a half dozen sitting Senators worse than Hatch. DKL, I’m fairly confident that despite looking nervous most of the commentators here would be able to answer intelligently. What makes it difficult for a politician is that (a) they are trying to avoid gaffes (although McCain’s already had several this week – fortunately Obama is obliging McCain by making more) and (b) the VP having to support the Presidential Candidate’s views rather than merely speaking her own views. So I’ll give her some room. I’ve not yet made up my mind. (Well I did and then rethought my decision Sunday night) Palin still has time to impress. I think that for some of us the VP debate will be pretty important. BTW – McCain is finally hitting Obama on his economic advisors. Obama (well actually Howard Dean’s brother) tried swiftboating McCain and boy did it come off poorly. |
DKL, I’m unimpressed with the Brett Stephens article. He cherry picked examples of success that worked for him from the distant past, and admitted that his comparables were more experienced that Palin without mentioning that we live in more complex times than his examples from 100 years ago. Why not compare her to Agnew, Ferraro, or even Quayle? Why is she likely to be any better then those three? |
I’ll add that we got very lucky with Truman. That could have been a disaster and it could be argued that FDR was irresponsible. |
That’s my view too John. You can pick out inexperienced Presidents who turned out great. (Lincoln being the prime example) But I think they were great despite their inexperience. One big thing experience gives the voter is some clue as to how they would govern. Quick, how do you think a Pres. Palin would respond to a foreign policy issue? I think there was a lot of evidence Bush II would be clueless – something I think born out. I have a reasonable if pretty damn incomplete idea about Obama. I feel reasonably confident about McCain (which is one reason I may end up voting against him). Ditto with Biden. But Palin? It’s a crap shoot. |
arj, the point isn’t whether you’re persuaded. The point is that one can frame a reasonable case that Palin becoming president is not the huge risk that people take it to be. I understand that your opinion is that Palin’s a dingbat (excuse me if I oversimplify). The problem with it is that you seem to react to the fact that others don’t share your opinion with disbelief. For my part, I understand why people would think that Palin is not qualified. I also understand why people would think that Obama is not qualified. I have my own opinions about both matters, and I do insist that my opinions are reasonable. Does that make them decisively compelling to everyone who hears them? Of course not. Clark, you can call Bush clueless, but there’s a reasonable case to be made that Bush’s foreign policy has been quite successful overall. Every President’s foreign policy has it’s black moments. For Nixon, it was mainland China taking over Taiwan’s spot on the UN Security Council. For Reagan, it was the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon. For Clinton, it was Mogadishu. But for 7 years, there have been no terror attacks. It’s difficult to make the case that the US has alienated its allies. Pro-US governments in England and Australia have held against predictions of their demise. Anti-US governments in France and Germany have given way to pro-US governments. France has soldiers in Afghanistan. After initial missteps in Iraq, things are clearing up. Now that I list all of that, I’m starting to think that it’s actually pretty difficult to make a case that Bush’s foreign policy is the debacle that conventional wisdom makes it out to be. The media would have viewers believe that everything good that happens during a Republican administration is inevitable, but the bad things are consequences of Republican ineptitude. So that it was inevitable that the US would enjoy 7 years free of terrorism. But when Russia invades Georgia, it’s because Bush wanted them in NATO. I remember talking to a liberal friend of mine many years ago. He was was telling me about the book Blackhawk Down. The way that he described it was like this, “They totally overpowered the US soldiers! The soldiers just didn’t know how to respond to that kind of attack!” he exclaimed with enthusiasm. “The warlords planned it all from the start, and it was absolutely stunning! It was like Vietnam, but on a smaller scale!” I was honestly shocked to hear this. It was the first time that I’d heard anything like it. He was actually relishing the defeat of the US armed forces. From his point of view, they should have known better than to go in there, and the mess that ensued was their comeuppance. In other words, he was happy that they failed, because it vindicated his point of view that they shouldn’t be there in the first place. When I mentioned this to him, he was candid enough to actually agree. “Come to think of it, you’re probably right,” he said. Since then, I’ve heard this sentiment over and over again among extremist liberals (i.e., people who read Kos). And a surprising number of them (probably about 1 in 4) are actually candid enough that if you’re not combative, you can cajole them into admitting that they’d rather America lose than win, because it would persuade people that their anti-war position was right and that they should just accept that America bringing these problems on itself in the first place. This is the exact group that Jeanne Kirkpatrick described when she coined the term, “the blame America first crowd.” This is why they hate Bush worse now that Iraq is going better, even though the casualties that they’d always found so unacceptable are diminishing. Obama is this way, only he’s less candid. This is the reason why he was pronouncing his verdict that the surge had failed for so long against reason and against evidence — a failure for the surge meant vindication for Obama, and that was more important to him than US interests or the state of our armed forces. The reason why he tried to influence the Iraqi government regarding US troops was to help his own candidacy. For me, this disqualifies Obama out-of-hand; Obama is dangerous, and people like him shouldn’t be president. Palin? At worst, she’s a lightweight. |
DKL, I call Bush clueless not because his general policy ideas were bad. Actually I agree pretty wholeheartedly with most of them. I call Bush clueless because he was a horrible manager. Comparing and contrasting him with Reagan is insightful. While there were some places Reagan was bad (ironically most notably Africa where arguably Bush is strongest) overall I think Reagan was able to manage the team he had whereas Bush was not. Thus Iraq was a mess until Pretaeus came on board (and I’ll fully give Bush credit for that and for going with the Surge when arguably it would have been easier to just pull out like Democrats wanted). I think that if you point to almost any area of Bush’s presidency you have good ideas with poor implementation due to poor management. (Add in short term expediency over long term planning and valuing loyalty above performance and you have his Presidency) What bothers me in all this is his cluelessness in this. I think that were he asking tougher questions (something Reagan did) this wouldn’t have happened. (And this problem of Bush is confirmed even by many Bush supporters in the White House) There’s no doubt there would be black moments. I think Reagan’s wasn’t just Lebanon (where he frankly reacted well in my opinion despite the flak he got) but more his dealings with Iran that came back to haunt him. Your other points I’ll agree with, although I think you underestimate the loss of American prestige. The problem in Iraq is that we were largely rudderless for years and arguably the events the first year were predictable and hubris led to many of them not being dealt with until it was to late. (Not necessarily Bush hubris but once again hubris of the people serving Bush with Bush not asking tough questions) Regarding Obama I’ll agree. He reminds me in a certain way of Clinton in that aspect. What I fear is that he lacks a certain degree of pragmatism that Clinton held. Rather he’s an ideologue with, I suspect, more of the flaws Bush has. Of course sadly I think that true of McCain as well. As I’ve said I don’t care for either and my vote will be largely a decision on who will hurt the nation least. But I think either way we’re in for a tough four years. |
DKL, Rest assured that I do not respond with disbelief. If I have I apologize. I generally respond with a counter argument that supports my position. If I have done otherwise please let me know. Also, I’ve frequently conceeded points. For instance I’ve happily admitted that Palin was a brilliant choice politically. I’m not sure what spurred you attack on my rather than my argument but I’m happy to let it pass. |
I’m not sure why you consider it an attack on you. Is it an attack on you to say that you seem to respond with disbelief? One does receive that response quite often when endeavoring to defend Palin. And there are areas where I’m as apt to respond with disbelief as with an argument; e.g., easy examples would be conspiracy theories about the 2004 election, 9/11, or the moon landing, but I could come up with less extreme examples. I do apologize or mischaracterizing your position. |
Ok, now I’m responding with disbelief: I don’t believe that I’ve responded with disbelief. If you could point out a specific example besides this comment I’d appreciate it. At the moment I’m inclined to think of your comment as simply an easy way of swatting me away by characterizing me as having a “problem.” |
I will admit to being unconvinced by the Brett Stephens column, if that is what you meant. I think my reasons for being unconvinced are legitimate. Clearly you found the article to be compelling, which is fine. |
a random john, it’s nothing specific. It’s more the overall tone of comments over the past few days. For example:
Also, you mentioned the potentiality of her becoming the next Jane Swift at some point, and I probably read too much into that — I have strong negative feelings about Jane Swift, and if she’d have gotten the VP nod, I think that disbelief would be the appropriate response. I’m sorry to misunderstand, and I’m glad for your clarification. But I don’t think that it’s fair to classify my comment as “an easy way of swatting me away by characterizing me as having a “problem.” In addition to what I’ve said above, I don’t believe that disbelief, as such, is a problem. In this instance with Palin, the argument that the pro-Palin position is reasonable is easy. |
I’d classify my comment as showing a sense of frustration. I certainly believe that people want a president just like them. I see it all the time. I happen to think the notion is a bit silly, but I certainly see it as real. And yes, I do fear that she could turn out to be a Jane Swift, but it is hard to say since we know so little about her. |
Clark, I just read ECS’s response to the interview on FMH. It’s not an analysis, but a gut-level reaction that took the interview at face value, even feeling like Palin’s explanation of Gibson’s distortion of her words was lame. I’ve decided I agree with you, and I hereby retract the statements that I made in comment #52 in defense of Gibson and ABC. |
Her voice is kind of like mine, it sounds sort of shrill and child-like, which is why people often ask for my mom when they call. If I’m careful, I can modulate it and make it sound lower and more mature, although then I’m accused of mumbling. She needs to modulate so she doesn’t come off so shrill and amateur-ish. She needs to never say the word “Charlie” again as long as she lives. |
PS, The way I saw that interview is that she got a little full of herself and thought she was going to come on and show people how smart she was and then had an “Oh, shit” moment. But that moment came after she began to answer Charlie’s question about the Bush doctrine in a debating manner without knowing what exactly what she was talking about. Maybe if that moment had happened the second she heard Charlie’s question, she could have said, “I still have a lot to learn, but I’m a fast learner and I appreciate the question for that reason.” Or something sufficiently intelligent and humble. |