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Some debates have real ah-ha moments that you recognize when you see them. To me this lacked any such moments. I agree that fans of each candidate thought their guy won. Not sure what undecideds would think. I didn’t notice any major screw ups by either of them. I do think that McCain had home field advantage in terms of subject matter and given that he’s behind he needed to clearly dominate. He did not, so the tie goes to Obama in this case. |
On PBS’s coverage, NYT’s Brooks first comment was something along the lines of “I miss Reagan”, saying that while both candidates were solid, neither seemed to be able to connect with people on “values”. My obviously biased opinion is that McCain won though not decidedly, and probably partly due to expectations. I thought Obama would excel during the debate on economincs and he didn’t. And McCain clearly came out ahead when the debate turned to foreign policy. |
I’m going to recant. There was something memorable about this debate and it was the stupid game of chicken that was played over whether the debate was even going to happen. McCain started the game and then lost it. It was an underhanded attempt to show “leadership” in an area that nobody wants him to lead. In four years that is what I’m going to remember about this debate. |
And Obama clearly stated in an earlier debate during the Dem primaries that he himself, as president, would meet with the leaders McCain mentioned without preconditions. It was pretty decisive. Here’s a good article about presidential diplomacy. |
arj #3, I agree with you. I think McCain did the right thing in suspending his campaign and going to Washington, etc., at least politically. But I think where he erred was trying to hold the debate hostage. |
Tim J, It might have played well politically, I don’t know, but to me it was silly play-acting. John McCain is not a key player in solving the financial crisis. Him racing to Washington (oh wait, he didn’t) would have done no good. Note that Obama was also at the big meeting where the deal was supposed to be hammered out and wasn’t. |
67% of voters in CNN’s online poll say Obama won. 67% of voters in Drudge’s online poll say McCain won. Yet another political Rorschach blot. |
arj, True. But I think the argument that McCain and Obama are now defacto leaders of their respective parties has some truth to it. And McCain could certainly influence members of his party to vote one way or the other. Whether he’s affected anything is debatable though. But again, it was clearly a political move, and would have played out better had he stopped himself before threatening to forego the debate. |
Eric, CNN flashed their poll numbers on screen which were heavily favoring Obama. Anderson Cooper then asked John King what these numbers mean to which he replied, “A lot more Democrats voted in this poll than Republicans.” |
1. McCain had low expectations coming due to fact his campaign has been a train wreck for the last week partially due he was trying to cancel the debate and play the “country first” by suspending his campaign. Nice to see Obama call his bluff on that. McCain’s strong point is talking about foreign policy and that was (supposedly) the focus of the debate. So I’d say he met and probably exceeded artificially low expectations coming in. 2. Obama needed to meet higher expectations for people who are concerned about his experience and capability to be Commander in Chief. He showed knowledge of the issues and met McCain head to head on most of them. I’d say he met but didn’t exceed those expectations on the foreign policy discussion. Both men know little about economic details and it showed. That turned about to be mostly a draw with maybe Obama a slight edge by connecting McCain to the Bush economy on more than one occasion. Next Thursday will be epic in more than one way. Watching Palin in prime-time will be a sight to behold. |
arj, I disagree with you about the gotcha moments. In fact, the entire point of my post is that there are none that get recognized at the time. The debate becomes a meaningful part of the election story only after the election is won. I challenge you to name a single gotcha moment within a debate where pundits said the night of the debate, “That’s among the defining soundbites of this election” or “that’s what this debate will be remembered for.” Talk to your parents, and they’ll tell you that as severe as the Gerald Ford/Poland Gaffe was, it wasn’t obvious at the time that it would be such an important issue. Even so, whatever gets remembered about this debate in terms of “defining” the election, it certainly will not be the fact that it almost didn’t occur. It’s too difficult to explain. A sound bite from the debate can be shown in less than 3 seconds, and it will be chosen to capture the spirit of the mythology that has grown up around the campaign much better than some crazy story about McCain suspending his campaign and proposing to postpone the debate. Eric Russell, exactly. Tim J: that’s exactly correct. Answering the question of whether he’d personally meet with leaders of enemy states without precondition was one of Obama’s early gaffes that he refused to come clean on. Later, it became the centerpiece of his foreign policy. Within the past 2 months, it has become something that he lies about to cover the shame of his deep and abiding ignorance. Take note: This is the same life cycle that Communist lies follow. |
Not that DKL cares what the Times has to say about it, but a pretty good check of the facts can be found here But regardless, I think McCain has a slight edge. Partially because he’s an underrated debater (which means he simply had to break even) and partially because he gave anecdotes that people seem to eat up. As misleading as they are – they work. Just ask Obama. |
CJ, thanks for that link. Some of it is informative. I got a kick out of this one:
That’s it. Three years out of the Illinois state legislature, and Obama is using “diplomatic parlance.” Perhaps this explains why Senator Clinton answered, “No” to the same question: she didn’t understand the diplomatic parlance the way that Obama did. Honestly, my 6th grade daughter could write a more intelligent defense of Obama’s idiocy than this. The New York Times bugs me in a way that (say) Mother Jones does not. Specifically, Mother Jones doesn’t insult my intelligence by trying to pretend that it’s reporting unbiased facts. CJ, if you call this, “pretty good,” I think that you set your standards way too low. |
Jon, you’re right. Palin/Biden is going to rival fake wrestling. Can’t wait. Take note: This is the same life cycle that Communist lies follow. Wow. I think I heard this same line on The Colbert Report. |
Online polls are notoriously unreliable because the results can be easily corrupted by malicious internet users. More reliable are the statistically-based focus group results from CBS, and Fox News, and the telephone survey of undecided voters conducted by mediacurves, seen here: My personal take is that McCain came out of the debate looking like a bumbling, self-assured, smirking old man too tired and confused to cover up old lies and misguided decisions. Which, all told, is not half bad, considering that’s pretty much exactly what he is. It sure didn’t feel like Obama brought his A-game, but the good news is it turned out he didn’t need it. “You were wrong, you were wrong, you were wrong.” Beautiful. |
Here’s something that jumped out at me. Obama said: And we also have to affirm all the fledgling democracies in that region, you know, the Estonians, the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the Poles, the Czechs, that we are, in fact, going to be supportive and in solidarity with them in their efforts. They are members of NATO. Of that group, only the Poles and the Czechs are members of NATO. |
I only caught the first half hour, but there was a lot of commotion in the room when McCain mentioned something about DNA. I couldn’t quite catch what he said, but it sure sounded like he was ridiculing biological research. What was that all about? I always get nervous when politicians start pontificating on science. The low point in that regard may have been when Bill Clinton in a state of the union address ridiculed federal funding of plant stress research, apparently thinking that it referred to psychological stress rather than to the serious agricultural problem of environmental stress. Gee whiz Bill, maybe you should have run that speech past your secretary of agriculture before putting your foot in your mouth. Federal research grants go through stringent peer review, and then some yahoo politician tries to score political points by mocking the work after after taking eight seconds to read the project title and deciding that makes him an expert on whether that research should be funded. |
Actually, the Baltic countries joined NATO in 2004. |
Left Field, |
“The way Democrats see it, their guy did fantastic, too. That’s not spin. They really think that.” My husband is a Republican who had supported McCain (with money not just mouth) in 2004, and he was impressed with Obama for many reasons. First, he thought McCain blinked. His idea to suspend the campaign was impulsive and inappropriate, and then he blinked and came anyway. Second, he was not impressed with how many times McCain announced that Obama was wrong. He was rude and disprespectful. Obama was much more cordial toward McCain. Third, McCain declined to admit that Iraq was a mistake. Obama accurately identified it as a distraction from the real war on terror. That’s not spin, it’s a fact. |
I saw McCain’s statement that he was suspending his campaign as a dodge tactic to avoid the debate. It was clearly a mistake. I also saw it as an example of McCain’s randomness. He is a bit unpredictable in his decision-making – and I don’t think it’s been a good thing. |
What was interesting this week wasn’t so much the debate … but the way McCain failed to show up for the Letterman show and then got skewered for it. The YouTube videos on that one are fun to watch. |
“I saw McCain’s statement that he was suspending his campaign as a dodge tactic to avoid the debate.” I don’t think he was trying to dodge anything. As Bill Clinton pointed out, McCain wanted to have 10 town hall debates across the country with Obama. He’s not afraid of a debate. |
I guess I haven’t heard enough of McCain to have heard the bear thing before. Obviously he hasn’t read the research proposal. He didn’t offer any analysis of the scientific merit of the work. He didn’t give any reason why his uninformed view should be given precedence over that of the panel and referees who cumulatively spent hundreds of hours actually *reading* and analyzing the proposals that were submitted and determining that this was the best use of their limited resources. He offered no critique of the proposal reviews or whey he disagreed. He just heard “bear DNA” and ten seconds later concluded that it would be a convenient thing to make fun of. The concern here goes far beyond DNA or scientific research. There are about a bazillion issues on which a president will not have personal expertise. The concern is whether the president will have the good sense to consult informed advisors (like say, I don’t know… an NSF or NIH research panel…) rather than go off half-cocked spouting opinions and making policy decisions based on having thoroughly studied the question for twelve seconds. |
Left Field, McCain is against earmarks, plain and simple. You can agree or disagree with that policy. So he has chosen this particular study to be a whipping boy because it sound crazy to the average citizen. On McCain’s website he supports funding the NIH. |
“Of course, $3 billion for a fighter jet is no problem…” McCain also admitted last night that military spending has been out of control too. |
Geez, I gotta tell my boss to stop beating his head against the brick wall that is the NIH funding process and make friends with a member of congress so we can get our yeast research funded by earmark. I don’t know the details but the idea of bear DNA research being funded by earmark does actually bother me a little. It seems to me that the earmark funding process is a lot less rigorous than NIH or NSF funding process. The bear DNA P.I. should have to prove the merit of his project to scientists, not congresspeople. But all this is beside the point. It probably sounds like a waste of money to most people, so McCain can score points by citing it. The same is probably true of 80% of my department’s federally funded research. $3 million for yeast mating? $5 million for fruit fly gonad development? What a waste! |
I’m still undecided at this point, although I’ve become underwhelmed with Sarah Palin and I’m leaning towards Obama because I think the VP choice in this campaign is every bit as important as the presidential candidate. I haven’t had a chance to watch the whole debate because I was working, but I’ve taped it and I’ll study it later. I felt, just from the bit I glimpsed, that McCain did better. Obama came off a bit like Palin did in her interviews, a bit brash and tinny, amateur-ish. Not as bad as Palin, but along that line. McCain seemed like he knew what he was talking about and was reasonable and calm, like a leader. I could change my mind once I watch the whole debate, but if you want an opinion that isn’t biased in favor of either party, that’s mine. For what it’s worth. |
annegb: “I think the VP choice in this campaign is every bit as important as the presidential candidate.” Coould you elaborate on this? I know for some people there is a concern that McCain will kick the bucket while in office and Palin will become president. But seriously…an anesthetized retarded monkey could be Vice President of the United States. Cheney is the only VP in history who has done more than attend funerals and break a Senate tie. I think the ruckus about who both candidates picked as VP is much ado about nothing. |
I’m an Obama supporter, and I thought it was a tie. First, I thought Obama did better in the economics section of the debate–McCain spent too much time focusing on earmarks, and didn’t once seem to talk to the people in the middle class who make up a large majority of the audience. I thought Obama did a much better job talking about the economic concerns that are of importance to the average voter. In the foreign policy section, I thought McCain had the edge. While I think that Obama held his own for the most part, McCain clearly came across like he had personal experience with the national security issues, and he did score some hits (and didn’t really let the criticisms that Obama was making stick). Overall, while I don’t think either candidate came out of the debate as a clear winner, I do think that Obama came out of the debate leaving the impression that he knew what he was talking about when it comes to foreign policy issues. Since that is the area where people are most likely to be wary of his expertise, I think in the end, this was a good debate for him. Also, any thoughts on why McCain wouldn’t look at Obama? P.S. In a CBS poll of *undecided* voters, 39% thought obama won, 37% thought it was a tie, and 24% thought McCain was the winner. |
Here’s another interesting poll of a small group of undecideds. It looks like while more of them thought Obama “won,” that in the end, it produced a tie when it came to people deciding which candidiate to support: |
I went into the debate expecting to see the idealist, oratory Obama, confident and poised. I expected McCain to be nasty and defensive, but especially out of touch. I was very impressed that McCain was so confident and poised, not nasty at all, and never defensive. His pointing out how Obama was wrong was spot on and fair for a debate. (#19 Naismith) Obama had his attacks as well, though he was far more conciliatory than McCain- “John is right”, etc. But after his latest “get in their faces!” talk and him not doing it well himself last night, you have to question his preparation or worse, his authenticity. I think Obama had a chance to distance himself from McCain in many ways, but didn’t do much to do that. With the attacks on McCain stemming from a largely “8 years is enough” crowd, and Obama agreeing with McCain so much undercut a lot of that thrust. Debates are not meant to be diplomatic. All in all, I thought McCain was superbly prepared and composed, mostly from the middle of the debate on, while I was disappointed by the Obama that showed up. I hope we can see Obama come out in Round 2 with his “A” game. |
# 27 annegb,
That scores points for McCain/Palin in my mind. Biden has had a rough couple of weeks and I see Palin as soaking up the international scene well. I think she is a clean slate has “upside”, while Biden’s tenure is a liability for Obama’s ideals. |
Bill (17), Thank you, I appreciate the correction. I must have been looking at un outdated site when I checked. |
nasamomdele, Palin is imploding, and it would be fun to watch if the prospect of her being president weren’t so scary. |
The debate’s a tie but McCain’s been having his “melt down moments” the last week and a half letting Obama get back ahead in the polls. Obama had his from late August until the economic melt down. McCain’s problem is he’s been so focused on the news cycle that he’s lost site of the bigger picture. And the economic problem let Democrats, somewhat misleadingly, blame it all on Bush and Republicans again which melted much of what McCain was able to do. That said McCain had a big uphill battle to win. Unless something massive changes he really doesn’t have a hope. It’s not Dole bad but it’s going to end up being a lopsided victory. |
“His pointing out how Obama was wrong was spot on and fair for a debate. (#19 Naismith)” I hwas not impressed with the tone. There is a world of difference between “Senator Obama doesn’t seem to understand there is a connected between the two.” versus, “Unlike Senator Obama, I believe there is a connection between the two.” The statesmanlike way to make the point would be the latter version. Instead, McCain repeatedly chose the former version, in a blatant attempt to paint Obama as inexperienced and confused. I don’t think it was effective. |
To be fair, Obama was correct. His initial statement was that Kissinger approved of negotiating with Iran- which McCain even echoes after he claims Obama has lied (sly dog…)
The main confusion, it seems, is over who is holding these negotiations. Obama said he was prepared to talk to Ahmadinejad. He never said Kissinger approved of the president- he simply said Kissinger approved of negotiations. |
@9 jOHN kING IS QUICKLY BECOMING MY FAVORITE REPORTER. |
#37 Naismith, I wouldn’t like it if those words were used against my guy, either. Being a swing voter, I thought it was effective and in a Presidential debate, I expected more from Obama in response as a presidential candidate. I thought that he was left exposed. #38, That was the issue- whether or not the president would engage in diplomacy or whether it would be through the state department. Obama muddled this issue really badly. #35 arj, I would say that Biden has imploded already. There have been rumors about him dropping out for “health reasons” so that Hillary can come in. Rumors, of course, but that kind of talk is never good, whether it is true or not. I probably haven’t paid enough attention to the news cycle to see Palin imploding. I haven’t seen it. I think she’s been just what she’s needed to be for the cameras, and putting her at the UN was a home run. All in all, I think McCain has campaigned very well while his campaign has been suspended, and looking at Obama’s face after the debate, I would not say he felt like he did well. Like I said, I hope he can figure out a way to bring his DNC game to the debates. He’s not bringing enough change and McCain’s experience and record are overwhelming him. |
nasamomdele, I only hear those rumors from right wingers, how about you? I’ll bet you a milkshake Biden stays in. What do you think? |
I think both VP’s stay in, but I think both McCain and Obama regret their choices to a certain degree. |
arj, Biden stays in for sure, my point being that the talk is bad enough, especially to the point where Obama has to take a debate response to express his support for his mate. |
I don’t think Obama is a great debater, so I was relieved at his performance last night. I think he has a hard time curtailing his answers, keeping them short enough for a a sound-bite hungry debate, while still somewhat meaty. I did think that Obama won on demeaner–looking at McCain and not getting ruffled while still correcting McCain’s attacks. But it was pretty boring and I zoned out of some of it. Did I hear correctly that McCain, in discussing North Korea, brought up the nations’ average height as being 3 inches shorter than South Koreans? |
Tim J, I think that about ten days ago Obama probably was wishing he had picked Hillary. But now I think that is a moot point. Likewise ten days ago McCain looked like a genius. Now that Palin is a laughingstock and the economy is in full crisis mode someone like Romney looks good in hindsight. Of course Romney would have outraged the base who will cut off their nose to spite their face. |
Nasamomdele, You’ve watched the CBS interview, right? What did you think? |
I agree about Palin imploding. She’s spouting nonsensical sentences. It’s very scary to think she could be anywhere near the presidency. The way McCain botched this crucial decision shows he has a serious flaw in the way he approaches decision-making. |
I have no problem with McCain having a stand on the manner of funding scientific research. What makes me angry is that he goes beyond that and passes judgment on the merit of a specific project that he neither understands nor has even read. Now it is certainly possible that the bear project has no merit whatsoever. I’m actually fairly well qualified to assess proposals such as that. Except for the fact that I haven’t read it. Since I’m not familiar with the work, I have sense enough to not presume to judge its merits. I can only assume that it must have been deemed worthy of funding by reviewers, and unlike McCain, I am happy to defer judgment to those who actually evaluated the project. McCain has absolutely no way of personally evaluating the relative merits of this bear project. We can only assume that he somehow thinks that any study of wildlife DNA is a waste of funds. Combine that with his lame attempt at humor that indicates that he thinks DNA is somehow related only to litigation and criminal prosecution, and you have a statement that shouts in capital letters, “I Know Nothing About Bears, DNA, or Biology, But I Want You to Take Me Seriously When I Say That We Shouldn’t Fund Research on Bear DNA!” I have no problem having a president that doesn’t know anything about bears, biology, or brain surgery. I just want him to have the good sense to avoid making an ass of himself pretending to know something he does not. McCain is the student who thinks he can fool the teacher by writing a report on a book he hasn’t even taken out of the shrink wrap. He has no more business evaluating scientific research proposals without reading them than he does in giving me medical advice without having so much as taken my pulse. |
theimpossiblek, to be fair, that’s a bunch of nonsense. McCain said Obama wanted to meet with the president of Iran directly. Obama responded by saying that Kissenger endorsed such talks. Your attempted apologetic on Obama’s behalf makes the Kissenger citation meaningless. Why didn’t Obama just point to the fact that the current Bush administration has been meeting with Iran for some time, including Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice? It’s a matter of record that Obama said he’d meet face to face with the President of Iran without preconditions, noting that this was a change from the current policy. And his current policy toward Iran is materially indistinguishable from Bush’s. But when someone brings this up, Obama supporters freak out and grasp at every obscurantist piece of nonsense they can imagine. arj and nasamomdele, Biden can’t implode. As Jonah Goldberg said at the National Review Online:
Biden shouting “Get these squirrels off of me!” on Meet the Press. I love that. |
DKL, While the imagery is entertaining (and imaginary) watching Palin try to BS her way through the Katie Couric interview was entertaining and not imaginary. That said, I expect both VPs to say incredibly stupid things on Thursday. It should be one of the highlights of this election season. |
arj, so which was worse: Clinton’s speech at the 1988 convention, or Palin’s interview with Couric? Obama’s gaffe stating that he’d sit down with enemy leaders during his first year as president, or Palin’s interview with Couric? Clinton making it with White House interns while on the phone conducting official business, or Palin’s interview with Couric? |
arj, I agree with you about Thursday night. It should be loads of fun. In my 2004 column that I link to in this post, I say this about the VP debates:
But almost as much fun as Thursday night will be the debate skit the following Saturday on SNL. The SNL McCain/Obama debate skit tonight (just finished about 10 minutes ago) was ingenious. Not as good as the Bush/Gore or the Bush/Perot/Clinton ones, which are arguably some of the best political humor in the past generation. But it was still very good. |
Speaking of political humor, the Bill Clinton segment on Weekend Update was the funniest thing I’ve seen on SNL in about 5 years. |
DKL, Palin. |
That Palin interview was classic. I have laughed hard at the clips I have seen. All that was missing from her responses was a comment about “the Iraq… such as…“ |
arj #46, BS, but ineffectual BS. I was waiting for a “chickens coming home to roost” comment or something inexplicable, along the lines of Biden’s “when I’m in the White House, we’ll prosecute Bush!” comment. My Palin infatuation died off a while ago. I really don’t have high expectations for her at this point in her political career. DKL, #49- Classic. |
“the Iraq… such as…“ Geoff, I am shocked those two videos have not been thrown together yet. |
re: SNL we’re 2-for-2 on Palin hatchet jobs this season, whereas if I’m not mistaken there’s been no mention of Biden and his round of gaffes. That said, the Clinton sketch was unbelievable… |
I can’t remember an election when I felt the VP choice was so important because the odds are higher for either candidate to die in office. I also can’t remember an election I’ve voted in, save my vote for McGovern, where the choice wasn’t about the lesser of two evils. If I had to pick a president from Biden or Palin, I’d vote Biden. Sarah Palin is starting to scare me. McCain would probably like to go back a month right about now. |
SNL nailed all three political sketches last night (Palin, debate, and Clinton). The bit about Obama using the race card against North Korea was classic. As was Hillary waiting in the wings if McCain didn’t show. |
I don’t blame Palin for her mistakes, I blame McCain. I think she has been completely mishandled. |
SNL didn’t need to do a hatchet job this week on the Palin interview. The scary part was how close the Tina Fey version of the interview was to the real thing. All Fey had to do is take the absurd content of the actual interview and nudge it a few inches toward extremely absurd. I agree that the other political sketches were really funny too. SNL tried hard to take jabs at Obama at least. |
Sara, one 72 year olds heart beat away? |
When watching the debate skit I thought that the race card bit was going to go a different way, playing off the stereotype that asians are terrified of black people. Then I wondered if that stereotype is widely known enough to be funny. While I was wondering this they went in a completely different and funnier direction. |
Thanks for posting that, Howard. It’s fun watching Cafferty, who is arguably the stupidest of the cable-tv-loudmouths, argue that Palin isn’t a bright bulb. |
You’re welcome DKL. Gee, you’ve never watched Bill O’Riley? |
It’s fun watching DKL, arguably the stupidest of the posters on this site, argue that anyone isn’t a bright bulb. |
Bill, Thanks! I’m always happy to add what little light I can to your humdrum life. BTW, your sentence structure shows a real touch of genius. Whatever it is you’re doing to come up with it, I’d advise you stick with it! Howard, comparing O’Reilly to Cafferty is like comparing William James to Josiah Royce. |
I figured you would have difficulty argue with its logic. |
DKL, I’m beginning to understand you fascination with Sara. |
The Cafferty clip is hillarious in that he knows he’s already gone past what is appropriate and then Wolf pushes him over the edge and you can see the opposing forces of outrage and appropriateness tearing him apart. |
Howard: DKL, I’m beginning to understand you fascination with Sara Nice work! I’m still struggling with understand your fascination with me. If I were as quick as you, I’d probably have closure by now. |
DKL, you engaged me. |
Yes, Howard! That must be it. I posted some thoughts on a debate on foreign policy and the economic crisis, which engaged you to post a link to the dumbest loud-mouth on cable TV (far behind both after O’Reilly and Matthews) making fun of the Republican nomination. I just knew you’d solve the mystery! Now if you could just compare and contrast O’Reilly vs. Cafferty and William James vs. Josiah Royce. And please, try to look smarter than Cafferty when you’re doing it. |
DKL, |
I’m sure Olberman is relieved to have been left out of this discussion. |
arj, Olberman is supposed to be in the same league with Blitzer and Hume, and he ends up being much further outside of their league than Cafferty is outside of Matthews’ and O’Reilly’s. Howard, is that an implicit admission that your quasi-defense of Cafferty was ill-founded? |
No. |
DKL, I always thought that Olberman was a smarter and funnier lefty version of O’Reilly and that his show is really a less popular mirror of O’Reilly’s. Perhaps I’ve been setting too low of a standard for him. Honestly I don’t watch either of them much now that I don’t have a landlord giving me free cable. I mostly see Olberman when someone points me to a “special commentary” on YouTube. |
Special commentary on YouTube. Olbermann Neuters O’Reilly. |
Half of O’Reilly’s viewers tune in for the unintentional comedy. The Colbert Report can only dream of producing as many laughs as “The Factor” hits on nightly basis. The No Spin Zone? Hilarious.
-Rush Limbaugh Bill O’Reilly bugs me in a way that (say) Keith Olberman does not. Specifically, Olberman doesn’t insult my intelligence by trying to pretend that he’s reporting unbiased facts. |
CJ Douglass, actually, if you watched O’Reilly, you’d know that he doesn’t pretend to “report facts.” He runs a news analysis program. I don’t even watch the guy very often, and I know that much. I do like Brit Hume’s Special Report, but I’m never home in time to watch it (6:00 PM on the East Coast). I don’t generally watch a ton of network news, because watching an evening of cable news (any channel) is like watching CNN Headline News for 5 consecutive half-hour headline news segments. |
DKL, |
Olberman neuters O’Reilly? LOL. I imagine you were the type of viewer who was disappointed when Olberman got canned as an anchor; Olberman is such a palpable moron that even his colleague Tom Brokaw talks down to him. Olberman, in classic buffoonish fashion, chocked his “analysis” so full of negative adjectives that he’s barely coherent. But you wouldn’t know that, because you’re so blinded by your rage at O’Reilly that you think that Olberman actually “neutered” him. |
Olberman was decent on Sportscenter. He must take himself too seriously or something, but actual news is not his thing. He’s the worst. I don’t think they could even get him to do well as another Daily Show/Colbert Report. |
DKL, I do catch O’Reilly (again – for the unintentional comedy) but my use of the word “fact” was just a cut and paste of your NY Times/Mother Jones comparison earlier in the thread. I understand that he (and Olberman) do news analysis but I still think my comparison holds true. Keith is admittedly a raving liberal but Bill tries to play this “I’m Independent” BS. It’s easily the biggest joke in broadcast journalism. As you must know, bias under the guise of independence is far worse than acknowledged bias. But instead of being insulted by Bill, I just laugh. I can’t help it – The man is hilarious. |
DKL; palpable moron, buffoonish, barely coherent and blinded by your rage |
The problem with Bill O’Reilly isn’t bias. It’s that he’s a terrible interviewer who interrupts the people he interviews to answer their questions for them. The only decent part of his show is his culture quiz, because it brings in two other reasonably entertaining Fox News personalities to displace his own boorish presence. Bill O’Reilly doesn’t hold any traditional ideology. His politics are an idiotic mishmash of conservatism and liberalism. O’Reilly doesn’t hide behind a pretended shield of impartiality. He’s totally up front on his political views, which he spells out at the start of every show. In spite of this, he’s less biased than most journalists pretending to report the news. You probably don’t notice that he goes after conservatives quite a lot, too. If you’re liberal, you were trained to hear CBS and Dan Rather as neutral, so that mainstream news doesn’t strike you as biased. But when you hear someone who’s less biased than Dan Rather, it strikes you as arch-conservatism. Personally, I’m one conservative who finds Bill O’Reilly’s politics distasteful. His “government should protect the little guy” nonsense leaves me to wonder why Michael Dukakis needs so much government help. |
CJ Douglass: my use of the word “fact” was just a cut and paste of your NY Times/Mother Jones comparison earlier in the thread. Yes. The New York Times actually does pretend to report the unbiased facts. Mother Jones does not pretend to report the unbiased facts. Thus it makes sense to say:
Cutting and pasting “Bill O’Reilly” in place of The New York Times doesn’t work, because Bill O’Reilly doesn’t pretend to be unbiased. Even so, in spite of the ill-fated cutting and pasting, your sentence structure had a real touch of genius. |
DKL, I know the thought of Bill as an independent is ludicrous but he certainly claims to be one. From a 2003 NPR interview:
Watch this guy Brian Kilmeade use O’Reilly as an example of how unbiased Fox News is. It’s high comedy. The No Spin Zone, the Pinheads and Patriots: You Decide – the man is constantly trying to sell it. Apparently you’re not buying it – which is to your credit. |
… but never underestimate the stupidity of Republican drones everywhere. |
…as opposed to Democratic drones everywhere — they’re brilliant! |
CJ, I think O’Reilly is saying he’s not biased towards either party or a dominant ideology. He fancies himself as ruled by common sense and pragmatism. I’m pretty convinced that half of what O’Reilly does is an act and is intentional. (Ditto with Limbaugh) But he’s good at it despite whatever hypocrisies may be there. That said he clearly does see himself as biased. He’s making no attempt to be an objective journalist but an opinionated pundit. BTW – getting back to the Palin issue. A lot of Republicans are starting to cry for a Palin Withdrawal. Even on the New Republic. (See this Volokh post for a good link) I have to admit that I’m a bit aghast at it all. I favored, prior to the convention, picking Palin. But I’d have assumed some vetting. She’s just looking worse and worse. Now that the shock is over and the problems are sinking in I think people are having more qualms. Were McCain up and making headway Republicans would be more excusing. But McCain’s been making plenty of gaffes of his own and Obama is getting his momentum back. I really liked the idea of Palin. Unfortunately the reality tended to be a woman who hasn’t thought about the issues and just isn’t a thinker. Obama is, in my mind, just as inexperienced but at least he’s thought about the issues carefully. (He’s wrong on a lot of them – but at least he is thoughtful) |
To add, since DKL is apt to bring it out, yes Biden is particularly gaffe prone and not terribly inspiring. I think the difference is that no one cares about Biden. Plus, for all his many flaws, Biden has long been thought well informed on foreign policy. That’s all he had to do: be there as a stabilizing influence on Obama. More was expected of Palin partially because she was so unknown. Biden was a safe boring and somewhat embarrassing at times choice. Palin was the maverick choice but she’s just not living up to what is needed of her. People (myself included somewhat) initially projected onto her what they wanted her to be: an alternative to the frankly uninspiring leadership the Republicans have. She was to be the female Reagan. But she’s not. We all may wish she was, but she’s just not. |
#20 – You said – “Obama was much more cordial toward McCain.” While I agree McCain could choose his words bettern when disagreeing with Obama, I think Obama was much more disrespectful toward McCain by calling him “John” all night long. McCain always referred to Obama as “Senator” or “Senator Obama.” What would have happened if McCain had constantly referred to Obama as “Barack” or “Barry” all night long? |
Clark, nobody is seriously considering a Palin withdrawal. Palin continues to attract crowds larger than Obama or Biden. She also continues to be the most maligned political figure in history. For example, in a couple weeks ago in Northern Virginia, 23,000 people showed up, of whom about 30 were pro-Obama protesters. The Washington Post ran a 14 paragraph article on the rally, spending a full 8 paragraphs talking about the 30 protesters, who did nothing more remarkable than show up and express their favor for the opposing candidate. (When was the last time the media devoted more than half of their coverage of an Obama event to the handful of pro-McCain protesters that showed up?) The basic issue is that there is a core constituency that extends beyond Republicans who relate to her personally. For example, I had a conversation with a woman yesterday, a registered and staunch Democrat, who says that Palin seems like a real person. To her, Palin makes her critics look phony by comparison, even if she doesn’t have all the panache of a policy wonk. The media, by continuing to malign her (and, to barrow language frequently used in other contexts by politically prominent feminists like Naomi Wolfe, to “rape” her), is simply alienating itself from its own core constituency. Biden’s gaffe’s are a lot of fun, but the real reason he’s so embarrassing is that he’s been wrong on every foreign policy decision in the past 30 years, except voting for the Iraq war. Biden is the guy who proposed dividing Iraq into 3 separate nations at the start of the war(!) Experience isn’t just time served, it’s accomplishments. Neither Biden nor Obama have any accomplishments to speak of, which means, in real terms, neither of them has an iota of experience. That’s not necessarily a decisive reason to oppose them, but if you’re talking about Palin’s supposed lack of experience, then it’s worth noting that Palin has accomplished more than Obama or Biden — perhaps more than Obama and Biden combined. |
DKL, I don’t think anyone is seriously thinking it. But there’s a lot of dissatisfaction for people to be saying and writing things like this. Biden wasn’t alone with the partition plan. A lot of big whig Republicans were for it as well. I thought it wrong and naive but I don’t think you can disparage it that much. (It was sure better than Bush and Rumsfeld’s plans for Iraq in the early days) |
Clark, when it comes to remarkable examples of embarrassing failures among female leadership in national politics, Pelosi takes the cake. Sure, Pelosi looks great in interviews, but she can’t even get 40% of her caucus to vote in favor of her own bill. Shows us how important interviews are. Pelosi should resign. |
It’s going to be interesting watching the fallout and ensuing spin put on now that the bill has failed. |
So let me get this straight…right before asking Republicans to join her in voting for this hugely important bill, she delivers this address? http://www.breitbart.tv/html/184803.html Nice job, Speaker. |
If the standard we’re setting is being better than Pelosi then the Republican party has indeed sunk. |
So, I write a post that disparages the significance of instant-analysis of the debates, and nobody wants to comment on that? I’ve been arguing for six years that presidential debates only become a significant factor in an election after the election is actually won or lost after election day. I was hoping that someone would take up that line of argument with me. |
DKL, I disagree with your analysis. :) |
That’s progress. Can you be more specific? |
Yes! While the instant analysis might be right or wrong the debates can and do have an impact on how campaigns are run and what is discussed leading up to an election. Specific moments may become more important in hindsight, and it is easy to point to things and claim that they were the reason someone won or lost. But the American people are not pundits and really there’s only about 20% that are even in a position to change their minds. For instance, DKL will love Sarah Palin no matter what falls out of her mouth on Thursday. For those that do change or make up their minds after viewing a debate can it really be argued that the debate only became important after election day? Clearly not. I could get behind the idea that pundits decide to memorialize debate moments as turning points after the election, when it is safe to do so. But I believe that debates do have an impact on serious independent voters as they are happening. |
You’re assuming that the pivotal points chosen by pundits after the election is over are grounded more in people’s reactions than to the need to make a tidy narrative. You seem to think that I’m saying that no voters respond to debates, but I’m not saying that. I’m saying that the historical meaning attributed to debates comes from the need to tell a nice little story about what happened, so that the post-election-day narrative about the debates ends up with very little grounding in reality. In other words, they say, “so-and-so won, so the debate must have meant such-and-such.” It’s called reasoning backwards from the conclusion, which is, in this case, the electoral count. |
Here was your summary: I was disagreeing with that. If your point is that the story of how the debates are a factor becomes crystallized after someone has won the election and someone has lost then I think that idea has merit but clearly you can win the debates and lose the election. |
Yes, well perhaps you should have responded to my article… Anyway, when I speak of it being a “significant factor,” I’m speaking within the framework of the narrative that develops. |
If the standard we’re setting is being better than Pelosi then the Republican party has indeed sunk. Both parties are sunk, and have been for a long time. I had hopes that McCain would be different … but maybe not. |
If the standard we’re setting is being better than Pelosi then the Republican party has indeed sunk. It’s a race to the bottom and the Republicans are catching up… |