nasamomdele-

really?? everything you just listed sounds like you got it off of Sean Hannity. especially #6, #7. No one cares about his policies? what kind of generalizing statement is that? or he’s as clueless as palin? if you give some examples to back up these silly statements people will take you more seriously.

#1

6. He’s a rock star. He’s on clothing in fashion shows. The euphoria about him is mindless and irrational. No one cares about his policies. That support cannot be taken seriously.

7. He’s as clueless as Palin, but running for President.

This is why America is falling down the tubes. everyone assumes everyone else believes the way they do. what you meant to say was that YOU don’t care about his policies, and you really don’t pay attention to people who do.

#1

Palin impressed me as qualified for VP enough at the debate, so I don’t question that

she impressed you that she can be disrespectful, lie, patronizing, and refuse to answer RELEVANT questions for the american people?

what was impressive about her performance? maybe the fact that she didn’t trainwreck like in her interviews. the expectations were pretty low… if she wouldn’t have had such bad interviews, I’m sure people would look at the performance on more of what it was then that it was better than her interviews.

well it’s good to remain neutral. by looking at both sides objectively we are more likely to find good sources of information, and come to good judgments (AHEM NASAMOMDELE). We see everyone as they are-politicians who will do/say anything to get elected. When we idealize our candidates, we are blinded by our faith in them, and they can do no wrong.

it’s called CONFIRmATION BIAS… we seek out information to prove our own opinions. any information we take in we use to confirm our views, not change them. nasamomdele, I’m guessing you made up your mind about obama long ago and have not considered him ever since, even in the recent mcCain/Palin blunders.

Annegb–I voted for Nadar last cycle, because I really disliked both of the other choices.
Even if I weren’t a dyed in the blue Obama supporter, I would have a very hard time supporting McCain because of his impetuosity. He makes sudden, unpredictable, not always well-considered decisions, much like GW Bush did. Nothing about Obama makes me as nervous as that tendency/pattern of McCain’s. Time for a steady hand and even temperament. Also, I will weed your garden if you vote for Obama. Also, we’re showing the documentary in St. George on Nov. 14 and 15th. Don’t you live in the area? We’ll be in the Red Rocks Film Festival. E-mail me personally and I’ll give you more details. IF you decide to vote correctly.

#1, your generalizing statements are slightly offensive to those of us who actually *DO* think about who we are going to vote for. Do your homework before appearing the fool on these issues.

there are plenty of reasons to question both sides, but rarely have you mentioned the valid ones regarding Obama.

nasamomdele

The euphoria about him is mindless and irrational. No one cares about his policies. That support cannot be taken seriously.

Would you kindly explain what you mean by this? especially the part “no one cares about his policies”. Yes, there are mindless followers of the candidates on both sides, but are you asserting that everyone who is an obama supporter doesn’t care about his policies? Please explain.

First of all, I am not looking for nor expecting to find a dream candidate. If I am I will definitely be setting myself up to be disappointed and disillusioned. Of course both candidates have their faults most of which I’m not that interested in. What does interest me is overall attitude and proposed policy.

In this case I am a strong supported of Obama first and foremost because he has stayed firm in his commitment to a timeline of withdrawl in Iraq. To me this is vital to our economy, in saving $11 billion a month, and our integrity by admitting mistakes and not insisting on winning. MCcain proposes that we can maintian the war in Iraq indefinitely, cut taxes on corporations and still rebuild our economy. How? He suggested in the debates he would consider an almost total spending freeze. But what about programs that can’t be cut or people will start dying. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t the tax burden then be shifted to states who would then have to raise property and other taxes to cover the shortfalls. I just don’t see how McCain’s approach is any different from what Bush has been doing for eight years only now we are in an economic crises.

I care passionately about the issues and the direction this country will take. I have thought about, read about and discussed the issues and would vote for Obama if he were the ugliest, most annoying person around.

Furthermore, I voted for Nader in 2000 because I was disgusted with my choices. The fact is, however, that millions of people like me giving him a basically throw away vote gave Bush the Presidency. Although I didn’t and still don’t like Al Gore very much, I can say he would have done a lot less damage than President Bush has done.

In 2000, a vote for Gore, was a vote for Bush. You didn’t throw your vote away by voting for Nader. We have a broken system where only the illusion of democracy exists. Instant runoff voting would do a lot for people who don’t want to vote while holding their noses. People like Nader would gain a whole lot more support if they were allowed into the debates. Just imagine the royal creming the two major candidates would get from Nader! However, the debate commission is owned by the two major parties and thus we have a very shamefully limited democracy in America that really only barely fits the definition of democracy if at all. Obama lost my vote when he sold his soul to the Israeli lobby groups such as AIPAC. He is also for expanding the war in Afghanistan where we’ve been bombing wedding parties and killing women and children and enraging Pakistan by bombing its territory and citizens. The war in Afghanistan was illegal and morally wrong. We need to get out of the war business all together. We would pay for the bailout if we lessened our defense budget which approaches a trillion dollars a year. Obama is oblivious of all this as is McCain. I cannot vote for Coriantumr or Shiz. You’ve got to go with your conscience.

But, nasomemdele, those aren’t things we know for sure he’s implicated in—McCain was implicated in the Keating scandal and also I believe he protected his wife. I guess the others are a matter of opinion. But so are the things you cite about Obama.

#5 Trudat, I agree there are other women more qualified. I’m sort of mystified about his choice. Maybe she’ll reveal herself to be stronger, although I disagree with nasomomdele that Palin is clueless.

I felt she did really well on the debate. She’s not a seasoned Washington politician, but I liked what she had to say. I did. I liked what she had to say and I liked the way she said it. That being said, I still think there are other more qualified women.

LOL #7, she’s no more a floozy than you or I! Oh, wait…than you…

#8 Jenny, You’re guessing wrong, much to the chagrin of my sister and husband. They can’t believe I would even consider voting for Obama. This would be the first election that I’ve voted differently from my husband, if I choose Obama.

#9, TRM, I don’t think I’ve ever studied the candidates this closely. I’m not sure what my conscience is telling me yet.

#10, Margaret, that’s how I feel! I don’t trust McCain for those very reasons. He’s a bit squirrely. But I still might vote for him, so your hands are safe this year. I’ll try to remember and let you know how it turned out(my vote, that is). Let’s see, you could scrub my floors….uh, or ….:)

#11, Jessie, very well put. Reasonable and reasoned.

#13 Nasomomdele, this is why I go back and forth. I “yes, but” in my own head to my own self with all this. Are you at all impressed by the fact that he has such a cool wife? I am. Okay, it’s a deal. I’ll let you know.

#15 ARJ, And now I’m bouncing all over the place

#16 Samara, well said. My mind works a lot like yours.

#18 “the war in Afganistan was illegal and morally wrong” Are you kidding me? If I’d been president, I’d have made a landing strip/parking lot out of western Afganistan and built McDonald’s (kosher Islam food) and Wal-Marts all over eastern Iraq. I’d have given out free pepsi and milky way bars and cell phones to all the kids and spread our influence as blatantly and quickly as possible. I would use the airstrips to destroy the Bora Bora mountains and let them know they’d messed with the wrong people.

Believe me, that’s what they’ll do to us if we don’t defeat them first. Iraq. No, I wouldn’t have gone in. I’d just have improved the standard of living in Afganistan so much that people in Iraq would be dying to get in.

I know there’s another side to the story, but I’m biased.

#19: Because I’m afraid he’s too good to be true. Either that or a closet member of AlQueda. However you spell it.

Ah, annegb,
So you’ve bought into the whole war on terror thing then. You don’t know why we really went into Afghanistan then. I see what a good propaganda system the US has when it can take a good person like you and turn you into a cheerleader for the murders perpetrated by the US empire.

annegb,

You know that I love you, but this Obama as a secret terrorist thing is crazy talk.

Let me lay out an even more likely scenario and you tell me how believable it is:

The Manchurian Candidate came out in 1964. John McCain was shot down and captured in 1967 and held until 1973. You can bet that the North Vietnamese had seen the Manchurian candidate. Several of my family members have been to Vietnam in the last few years and you could buy a pirate copy of any DVD you wanted on the street there. So you know that they pirated The Manchurian Candidate.

Given that they knew who they had prisoner, John McCain son and grandson of Admirals, and they had DVDs of The Manchurian Candidate do you think they were able to put two and two together?

Of course they did!

John McCain spent five years being brainwashed and trained to run for President of the USA as a war hero. They’ll rig the election so that he wins miraculously. You wait, there will be an October surprise out of Vietnam that will swing the election toward McCain.

Then in February the phone will ring at 3 am in the White House. McCain will rise from slumber, answer the phone, and hear the secret code phrase that will activate his programming. What is the code phrase? “Socialist agrarian paradise.”

At that point McCain will convene his war cabinet, declare the Vietnam War over and that South Vietnam belongs to North Vietnam. He’ll then declare marshal law, institute a curfew, burn books, and put anyone with more than a high school diploma in a camp. He’ll also turn over all of our Area 51 technology to Vietnam.

And you can bet that Roberta McCain, his 96 year old mother, has been patiently playing the Angela Lansbury role for the past 35 years and desperately wants this to happen before she dies. That’s why she said awful things about Mitt Romney.

annegb,

Could you please articulate what you understand the “islam connection” to be and how you think it would impact an Obama administration?

annegb,

Well I don’t begrudge your presidential vote mattering to you. I just hope you will put as much thought into your decision about local school board elections or local school funding votes as you are putting into your decision about a president. In the end your school decisions will be massively more impactful on the lives of the local people you know and love than your presidential vote (especially since you live in a state that is not up for grabs like Utah).

We all do it to some degree, but spending all of our mental energy on the decisions that make the least difference on our ballots is the height of irrationality.

I’m not claiming anything except he makes me nervous.

what are you going to say if I vote for him, ARJ? I can say he makes me nervous because…but that’s not a flat out claim that the things I’ve heard are true. All I’m saying is “what if?” McCain makes me nervous, too. Will you refute those “claims” as well?

You didn’t answer me on the abortion issue.

No, I don’t have to. I have the right to an opinion and if anybody’s minds are reinforced, that’s not my problem. I am nervous about Obama, as I am nervous about McCain and the fact that you are not nervous about the same things I am doesn’t make my nerves any less valid. The only fact I’ve stated is that I’m nervous. I’ve heard all the arguments against my nerves and I still have them.

Samara #16,

I appreciate your respectful tone in addressing issues. I respect all the points you made, though I do not agree with them. That said, I do not see policy that opposes my views as detrimental to the fate of the world.

Iraq- I believe it is far more important for America to leave Iraq in a good state rather than just leave. I am much more concerned with Iraqi liberty and relative peace without terrorist roots than I am concerned about the burden such things place on our economy.

The Obama “I want a timetable regardless” position that he took when seeking the nomination is equivalent to a hit-and-run. It’s changed, though- now he talks about timetables determined by conditions on the ground (This is similar to his “I will talk with any world leaders, enemies or not, anytime, anyplace- now it’s I will have the State depart talk with them, with certain preconditions).

McCain does not want to perpetuate a war there. His plan for Iraq is more along the lines of perpetual presence, which is, as near as I can tell, the Obama position. It is unclear as to who would provide a lesser intensity

As far as taxes go, I feel a lot better about state government taxing me than I do about Federal Government taxing me. At least I know who is taxing me and I can see the results first hand. But that’s just me.

If I were to simply vote on personality or speaking aptitude, Obama wins in a landslide.

To me, his policies have lacked conviction from when he started campaigning until now. He pandered the far left to beat Hillary and now he panders the middle. I don’t trust him as really having solid values. He strikes me as a politician, bought and sold.

And I would love to hear a defense of his record on abortion.

For some reason I find it hard to believe that you’re undecided. Your comments on this blog are consistently right-wing. I tempted to think that you’re simply posing as undecided in order to appear moderate.

I appreciate the positioning. It must seem right-wing to not agree with the pro-Obama, anti-Palin conversation lately. Actually, no. There’s reasonable room for other views in the world besides the polemic. I posited my perceptions of Obama in reaction to the idea posited by this posts author that she has no marks against Obama. I have challenged that assumption. I would hope that by doing so I have simply challenged you to come up with some concrete reason why someone should vote for the man.
1. My point here is not that these people have had or will have any influence on Obama. I don’t think there is a puppeteer. My point is that he has been connected, usually by money, to shady and criminal people in his past. I think it is very telling to note where campaign contributions come from.
2.

I see nothing wrong with asking those that have done the best under our system to pay into it.

I am on the completely opposite side of this issue from you, though I respect your view. I feel it is a slap in the face of the American Dream.
America has not had average income drop $5000, like Obama says, but only $348, according to census data. Median, or halfway point income, has risen $272. We can all pay more taxes.

In any case Obama has said that he will not raise taxes while we’re in a recession.

So he does not have a tax plan, basically. Or will he only cut taxes and spend what he plans on spending. The gaps in his presentation are too big for me to believe.
3.

I think you can have a legitimate difference over what level the talks should occur at without thinking that Obama is crazy or dangerous.

I don’t say that he’s dangerous or crazy. I say that he’s misguided people throughout his campaign by changing his semantics. I think he’s a half-truther and slick more than anything. Getting a straight answer from him has been impossible (i.e. Joking about abortion- “The answer to that question is above my pay grade”- that doesn’t sound like someone who really gives a damn).
4. Your response is strange. All I can say is that I respect a speaker who can work intelligently and honestly without a teleprompter. Point McCain.
5. I’m troubled by Obama’s tax plan- I think I have some good reason to be. McCain’s is more tax cutting in the long term- 10% overall over 10 years, while Obama’s is 7.2%. I’m not anti-corporations at all, so I don’t see why they ought to bear even more of the burden of suburban America. They already pay more taxes than most people do.
That and the fact he constantly lies- his plan will not cut taxes for 95% of working households, but only 81%. And he accuses McCain’s plan of not reaching 100 million people, when it will not reach 66 million- a 34 million person lie.
And his plan will perpetuate deficits for beyond a re-election, just as MCCain’s would.
The idea of Universal Health Care as Dems proposed it in the primaries. I have no clue what Obama proposes here. His website is opaque, at best.
I know McCain proposes up to $5000 in tax breaks for Health Insurance- a comprehensive and pragmatic approach. It may not be the best, but it’s a good idea.
6.

Serious people care about his policies.

I appeal to you serious people.
7. That probably was the dumbest thing I’ve said on this blog. I see that comparing Obama’s cluelessness to Palins is silly. He has more experience than she does. At the beginning of his Senate tenure, I could make the argument (he thought the 1st WTC bombers were locked up in guantanomo, for one). So Palin is definitely the clueless one right now, though I would not expect her to remain that way.

I could come up with very, very similar things for McCain, but I really would like an intelligent discussion of why one should vote for Obama, sans “no way, no how, no McCain.”

The clincher for me for not voting Obama was his trying to tamper with US-Iraqi security negotiations; effectively tampering with the lives of soldiers in order to get credit for the resolution post-election. I can’t vote for that kind of scum.

A random john- it’s useless. nasamomdele is so strongly biased, don’t waste your time.

Are you thinking of voting for Ron Paul? He’s a racist.

nasamomdele,

your tone on this site is offensive and hostile. it would be much easier to take you seriously and consider your points if you weren’t beating me over the head with them.

nasamomdele,

You’re aware that DKL both posts and comments on this site, right?

nasamomdele

wow you are impossible!! bali was talking about your delivery- that you are too heavy handed and can’t have a respectful discussion.

Also, i think it’s awful to compare the inspiration someone feels for a leader to that of a terrorist organization. Don’t people inspire you? Have you never been inspired? Regardless that it is Obama or McCain that has inspired, you say that you have NEVER been inspired?

ESO, politicians who appear perfect make me nervous.

#52–a little time with nasamomdele should cure that perception!

#53–if you live in a country where every school is sponsored by a religion (this is the case in much of the world) and the most prominent religion in that country is Islam, doesn’t stand to reason that your neighborhood school might be “a Muslim school”? Would you hold a Catholic education against him? An Episcopalian one? I have taught at both a Catholic and an Anglican sponsored school and the indoctrination attempted was non-existent.

You can work out the “make up their minds” thing on your own. And born again christians (although, if you place Obama in this category, is he not damned either way? You won’t let him be Muslim, but you won’t let him convert to Christianity, either?)

FWIW, I know many fine Muslims I would vte for. I see no reason to doubt anyone’s professed faith.

I guess the last is a personal issue–Nadar must fall in there somewhere, too. Good luck.

yes

Perhaps you should think of a person who doesn’t make you nervous and write him or her in on your ballot annegb. (Since McCain is winning your state anyway)

ESO,

I’m happy to help.

DKL–the story is that Michelle would not allow him to run unless he quit. I don’t know what McCain’s motivation was for quitting (or if he has–I just assume he has). It seems like a pretty common sense thing to do when there is cancer in the family.

annegb–it is my understanding that Obama never has been a Muslim. I believe his parents were rather agnostic. Like many adult American Christians, he formally and spiritually became a Christian as an adult.

You know, it just dawned on me that this thread went from my reservations about McCain to a few defending Obama.

No one has given me a good explanation for Cindy McCain’s slap on the hand for what she did. Of course the explanation is her husband was a politician and she’s rich. How is that being a Maverik, for the little people? The doctor lost his license!

And what about the Keating scandal? What about the infidelity? If ever I heard a canned response, it’s John McCain’s response to questions about how he cheated on his wife. He doesn’t say, “I was a dirty dog and I will regret it until the day I die.” He says the exact same thing in every interview about it.

No one has questioned him about his disloyalty to his party. He’s labeled a Maverik.

I certainly get chills when I hear about how nobly he responded to the North Vietnamese offer to release him, but this guy is no saint. And he was born a Washington insider.

What makes me nervous the most about McCain is “will he waffle when times get tough? where will his loyalties lie? will he protect his friends in illegalities?”

I love Pat Schroeder. I’d vote for her any day.

ESO, I’m not blanket condemning evangelical Christians; however, many of those I’ve known are just as extreme in their condemnation of others and hating in the name of their religion as anybody in the Taliban. I worry about Sarah Palin for those reasons. I’d like to know where she is on that spectrum. I have a born again Christian neighbor who is one of the best people I know and her kids are the ones we trust with the key to our house. But I’ve known others who would kill me (if they could get away with it) because I’m a Mormon and pro-choice.

I’ve know Mormons who would like to slit my throat when I say I’m pro-choice.

And frankly, I never believe a candidate’s proclamation of faith. The only truly Christian president I recall was Jimmy Carter. And he sucked as a president. It seems that the very words “Christian president” are an oxymoron since all politicians are called on to act against any Christian values.

Every one of these people, McCain, Palin, Obama, Biden make me incredibly nervous, not the least because we are in a nerve-wracking time. Which one will sell me out to our country’s enemies? Which one will screw up the Iraq situation so bad that my grandson will get killed over there? Which one will mess up the financial mess even more so that Bill and I are living on a tent in public lands?

I’ve never considered my vote more. But, Wm. Morris gave me the best reason to vote for McCain. I recall (can’t recall the specifics) when I voted straight Democrat for the same reason. I don’t want either party in control.

why, oh why are all the democrats socialist?

No, Bookslinger, McCain was involved with Keating. His wife invested $300,000 in something involved there. Maybe Cindy McCain is John McCain’s Achilles heel. “Not enough evidence” isn’t the same as being crystal clean. I’m not satisfied there. Clinton has never been charged with anything involving China, but I think he’s done some shady things there.

I’m a total wimp. I’d sell out my own mother if I were being tortured. I wonder if I’d sell out my kids. So I can’t fault him for collaberating. I’d probably collaberate in order to avoid getting my arms broken.

What about Cindy’s crime? Public service isn’t enough. The doctor didn’t get to do public service.

Funny you should compare Obama to Carter; I’ve thought the same thing. He seems to make those grandiose promises that led me to vote against Carter. I thought he had to be really stupid to think he could do all those things.

I wonder about the socialist label, too, Bookslinger. I could be labed a socialist in many ways. Do people who have a strong social conscience and a desire to indulge it have to be socialists? I think social programs meant to help the poor are not necessarily communist in nature. Doesn’t the Lord himself ask us to help the poor and underprivileged?

Black people should have a more highly developed sense of society’s injustice, even if they’re raised with a silver spoon in their mouth. Just like the Jews. A rich Jew who’s been handed everything and never suffered in the holocaust nevertheless has a deeply ingrained sense of what was done to their people. I was poor and let me tell you, I feel for the poor.

I’m now lower middle class and I feel for us, too. Dang, it’s hard when you make a decent wage because we pay for everything. The poor pay for nothing and the rich have enough money. The middle class is supporting this country and the poor and rich alike should bow down and thank us every damn day of their lives.

Well, that’s my rant.

If I think too hard about it, I get really mad because I think the truly worthy individuals who should be candidates have been overlooked in the win-lose game this election has become.

annegb,

“Do people who have a strong social conscience and a desire to indulge it have to be socialists?”

If they want to enforce their desired end result through the power of the state then yes.

“Doesn’t the Lord himself ask us to help the poor and underprivileged?”

Exactly, he asks *us* to help the poor and underprivileged. He doesn’t ask us to force our neighbors to do the same or to throw them in prison if they refuse.

annegb,

Governmental social programs are paid through taxes. If you don’t pay your taxes then you go to jail.

You view the “Gang of 14″ as a temper tantrum?

I don’t know.

You know how when you say a word over and over, it seems to lose its meaning? Like say desk 25 times. Well, I’m sort of sick of this conversation. No offense to anybody, I’m just sick of the subject of the presidential campaign.

Jessie,

“But this is a little extreme to say that if our neighbors pay taxes, they are being forced to help the poor.”

Isn’t the point of Medicare to help the poor? Aren’t we forced to pay FICA taxes? There is nothing extreme against pointing out the truth. The larger the government social program, the larger the taxes. And you don’t get to choose whether you pay them or not.

“I don’t like paying taxes to support bombing Iraq, or paying taxes to support abstinence only programs. I pay my taxes because that’s the law. Why are we ok with paying for a war where our soldiers are getting killed, iraqi civilians get killed, but we are so opposed to paying taxes for some underprivileged people to get some help in this country.”

Yes, you are being forced to fund the war in Iraq/Afghanistan, you are being forced to fund abstinence only programs, and you are being forced to pay for government social programs. The latter of the three was the point in my earlier message. The application of force to provide for the poor is not part of the Gospel message. Those trying to care for the poor in this way are focusing entirely on having a perfect end result and are ignoring whether the means to reach that result are appropriate or if they cause undesirable side effects.

The argument isn’t whether or not we should care for the poor, it is whether or not it is a good idea to give government the responsibility to do it or if we should leave it in the hands of the citizens, the churches, and the charities. My point is to clarify that support for government social programs is not a more moral position than opposition to them. There is no virtue in caring for the poor with your neighbors money.

Aluwid:

Yes, I see your point. Maybe i’m thinking about this too much from the angle of what I want the government to do…. I’d rather they put that 10billion a month in iraq towards public education or social programs or something, and I dont’ think of what that means for the tax payers.

I guess what I mean to say is that no matter what is being done with tax payers money, we’re gonna complain about it. We might as well do something more useful to the folks in need in OUR country if anything. Palin says that this country can be a source of good in this world. How about a force of good in our own country? My belief on principle is to put money toward those in need rather than funding a war.

The application of force to provide for the poor is not part of the Gospel message. Those trying to care for the poor in this way are focusing entirely on having a perfect end result and are ignoring whether the means to reach that result are appropriate or if they cause undesirable side effects.

I hadn’t thought of the programs as “forcing”… but the second sentence could be applied to funding the war…. I wonder which of the two(funding the poor or funding the war) is not part of the Gospel message.

thanks nasa for pointing that out… sorry guys, it’s been a long day and my brain is kinda fried…

I’m just saying, i’d rather compel someone to pay taxes to help the poor then compel them to pay taxes to drop bombs. Can we trade???:)