I’m just saying, i’d rather compel someone to pay taxes to help the poor then compel them to pay taxes to drop bombs. Can we trade???:)

I don’t think the point is which one is part of the Gospel message. It’s obvious.

The point is whether or not compulsion is in the Gospel message.

Yes, I see your point. Maybe i’m thinking about this too much from the angle of what I want the government to do…. I’d rather they put that 10billion a month in iraq towards public education or social programs or something, and I dont’ think of what that means for the tax payers.

I guess what I mean to say is that no matter what is being done with tax payers money, we’re gonna complain about it. We might as well do something more useful to the folks in need in OUR country if anything. Palin says that this country can be a source of good in this world. How about a force of good in our own country? My belief on principle is to put money toward those in need rather than funding a war.

The application of force to provide for the poor is not part of the Gospel message. Those trying to care for the poor in this way are focusing entirely on having a perfect end result and are ignoring whether the means to reach that result are appropriate or if they cause undesirable side effects.

I hadn’t thought of the programs as “forcing”… but the second sentence could be applied to funding the war…. I wonder which of the two(funding the poor or funding the war) is not part of the Gospel message.

This idea of government as an agent of charity is relatively new. Only since the 1930′s.

“But this is a little extreme to say that if our neighbors pay taxes, they are being forced to help the poor.”

Isn’t the point of Medicare to help the poor? Aren’t we forced to pay FICA taxes? There is nothing extreme against pointing out the truth. The larger the government social program, the larger the taxes. And you don’t get to choose whether you pay them or not.

“I don’t like paying taxes to support bombing Iraq, or paying taxes to support abstinence only programs. I pay my taxes because that’s the law. Why are we ok with paying for a war where our soldiers are getting killed, iraqi civilians get killed, but we are so opposed to paying taxes for some underprivileged people to get some help in this country.”

Yes, you are being forced to fund the war in Iraq/Afghanistan, you are being forced to fund abstinence only programs, and you are being forced to pay for government social programs. The latter of the three was the point in my earlier message. The application of force to provide for the poor is not part of the Gospel message. Those trying to care for the poor in this way are focusing entirely on having a perfect end result and are ignoring whether the means to reach that result are appropriate or if they cause undesirable side effects.

The argument isn’t whether or not we should care for the poor, it is whether or not it is a good idea to give government the responsibility to do it or if we should leave it in the hands of the citizens, the churches, and the charities. My point is to clarify that support for government social programs is not a more moral position than opposition to them. There is no virtue in caring for the poor with your neighbors money.

You know how when you say a word over and over, it seems to lose its meaning? Like say desk 25 times. Well, I’m sort of sick of this conversation. No offense to anybody, I’m just sick of the subject of the presidential campaign.

The socialist thing I think deserves a post all its own. I think there should be social programs paid for by us. WHy shouldn’t we pay a little in taxes to lift up the poor? Many of us don’t do anything beyond paying our tithing/fast offering. If paying a little extra in taxes for after school programs for underprivileged/black/latino/poor white children is so bad, I’d like to see an alternative.

Yes, I see the argument that he doesn’t say to force our neighbors. But this is a little extreme to say that if our neighbors pay taxes, they are being forced to help the poor. I don’t like paying taxes to support bombing Iraq, or paying taxes to support abstinence only programs. I pay my taxes because that’s the law. Why are we ok with paying for a war where our soldiers are getting killed, iraqi civilians get killed, but we are so opposed to paying taxes for some underprivileged people to get some help in this country.

“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist”.
(Dom Helder Camera -former archbishop of Olinda, Recife, Brasil) (1984)

Governmental social programs are paid through taxes. If you don’t pay your taxes then you go to jail.

You view the “Gang of 14″ as a temper tantrum?