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Interesting. I disagree. I am a recovering Republican… who is now more of a moderate Independent. The unfailing devotion of many in my old party I believe leads to ignorance, bias, and blind obedience. I believe America is great, and its values are great. But what values are we talking about? Republican values or democratic values? Palin stands for the Republican values, which half of the country isn’t comfortable with. The last 8 years lead people to distrust these so called American values, because they only serve the republicans, and leave out the rest of America. Palin only serves her party, and no one else. I have heard people in the last few months, members of the church who are intelligent call bush a “good guy with a bad rep”… objective thinking would tell them he’s a politician, human, and has made some bad decisions. But according to them, he has devoted himself to their republican values. I don’t want anymore republican values. I dont’ think the world can take it. How about a balance of both? How about an objective view that both sides have their own view of America, that neither is absolutely correct, that America makes some BIG BLUNDERS, and that we should be able to stand up and say “Hey, I don’t want my country with all of its wonderful values taking part in that because those aren’t the values I stand for”. The Republicans say this all the time about abortion, homosexuality etc… why is it so unamerican when Democrats do the same when it comes to war, big business, and social programs? |
I’d love to be able to join you in this, DKL. (although Mark Twain was very wrong about Mormons — and not even that funny). But I get the feeling that people are lauding Sarah Palin more because she pisses of the media and the liberal elite than for anything intrinsically awesome to her career and personality. “Calling Sarah Palin ignorant or uninterested in the world around her is utterly preposterous. ” Is it? I’m not seeing evidence otherwise — even from the conservative media. Give me a true crunchy con vice presidential choice (male or female), and I’d consider McCain (because I do think that his age is a factor), especially one who shows an understanding of science instead of parroting that Evangelical Christian stuff (although I’d be fine with a candidate who believes in intelligent design — just not one that talks about dinosaurs and humans living 6k years ago). But as things stand, I’m thinking of writing in a candidate. |
Joe Six-packs and their predecessors are the reason the founding fathers chose a representative form of government. I like Sarah Palin; I would enjoy having her as a friend or neighbor. She’s less frightening than Cheney but there’s no substance behind the façade. |
And yet. She’s the governor of Alaska. That can’t be a fluke. |
This is an interesting post, DKL. Barack Obama’s comment about bitter people clinging to guns and religion, however, is in the same vein as Palin’s comments castigating the “elite” and denigrating our government as “bad” while at the same time arguing for more government intervention and regulation. One thing is for certain, the next few weeks leading up to the election are going to get ugly. The last thing we need is more mudslinging and barbs about who is more patriotic than whom. Although my tastes run more to Willa Cather and F. Scott Fitzgerald, Mark Twain and Ernest Hemingway are both essential to American literature. I agree with you that Palin deserves credit and kudos for her involvement in local and state politics. If more hockey moms and soccer dads participated in local government, politicians wouldn’t be able to get away with stacking city jobs with their high school buddies or other patronage hires, and awarding public contracts in backroom deals, which seem to be hallmarks of small town politics in America now. |
“Joe Six-packs and their predecessors are the reason the founding fathers chose a representative form of government.” Not really. The Founding Fathers were about as elitist as you can get. Of course, I’m very glad they chose a representative form of government. It has allowed this great country to grow and change with the times in a much better way than any other nation. The best argument for voting for McCain isn’t the presence of Sarah Palin on the ticket (do we even know how McCain would use her as VP?), but rather that there is a danger of the Democrats ending up with a filibuster-proof 60 seat majority in the Senate. Combine that with an Obama presidency, and that’s a little scary to those of us who are in the radical middle (to borrow a term from Eugene England and twist it into politics). |
Wow, Morris. “…about as elitist as you can get?” Care to explain? Elitists, by definition, don’t willingly hand power over to the people. |
This is one of the more interesting reads I’ve had on the subject of Palin. DKL, thanks for putting this together. |
Momentarily forgetting about the literary comparison the post brings up – has Palin ever offered up any specific opinions or thoughts in regards to Mormons? I’d be curious to see what she has to say about us. |
Care to explain? Elitists, by definition, don’t willingly hand power over to the people. Are you suggesting the founding fathers weren’t elitists? If so, I’d be interested in your definition. |
As for me and my library, I like including both Twain and Hemingway, but I don’t read the Hemingway. And I won’t be voting for McCain/Palin. |
“Elitists, by definition, don’t willingly hand power over to the people.” Which is exactly how we (rightfully so) ended up with a republic. The Founding Fathers didn’t hand over power to the people. And I’m not sure how the conventional definition that conservatives use for the word elitist — which basically seems to mean anyone that is well-educated and liberal — has anything to handing power over to the people. And, of course, if we’re talking about handing power over to the people, I have to ask, “Which people?” The Palins, for example, are clearly upper middle class both in income and culture. It’s an Alaskan outdoorsy, folksy culture. But it’s upper middle class. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I don’t see how those of us who are making lower middle class salaries should be able to find Sarah Palin any more approachable than any other politician. |
William Morris, if she were uninterested in the world around her, she wouldn’t have run for city council to change things in Wassilla. She wouldn’t have run for mayor when the city council seat proved insufficient to get things done. She wouldn’t have run for Lt. Governor and Governor. Hermits with no intellectual curiosity don’t run for public office and get 80% approval ratings. The basic problem, I think, is that you need to be intellectually curious enough to define “intellectual curiosity” in a way that appreciates the value of other forms of “intellectual curiosity.” What I’m trying to do here is explain the intellectual/cultural basis for supporting Palin. Other people have made policy arguments, qualification arguments, and political arguments. Those are all fine, but I’m arguing that she’s good because her ambition and her outlook reflects what I like best about America. The Founding Fathers were elitists according to our hyper-egalitarian outlook, but saying that they were “about as elitist as you can get” is hyperbole even by today’s standards. A Republic is elitist by whose standards? (besides elitist progressives, like Woodrow Wilson, of the early 20th century.) The Founding Fathers didn’t set themselves up as a council of oligarchs, which is something that elitists are still doing today in other parts of the world. They could have set up a monarchy or a constitutional monarchy. They could have set up a hereditary power-transfer system to provide for their descendants. The Founding Fathers set up a system of political power with an unprecedented level of enfranchisement that expressly forbade hereditary titles and even allowing foreigners to take part by providing for naturalization (something that Japan, for example, forbids to this day). Perhaps this mistake of yours demonstrates some lack of intellectual curiosity on your part. I do, however, find something very interesting here. I submit that many Palin opponents are motivated by a distrust of America and its values, and the most vociferous objector responds with knee-jerk hyperbole to distance his own view of the founding fathers from that of 21st century America. |
please define values. |
Why? Is there a disagreement over values here that requires something to be cleared up? |
uh…..yeah… I just don’t know what you’re getting at. Values is a politically loaded word. To say that anti-palins distrust America’s values… well I just want to know what values you think I’m distrusting. |
I’m arguing that she’s good because her ambition and her outlook reflects what I like best about America. |
“but saying that they were ‘about as elitist as you can get’ is hyperbole even by today’s standards.” Not at all. They were the elite of America at the time. They were also great men and wise men and flawed men who set up the best political system the world has seen (the theocracy of the city of Enoch aside). I completely agree with the rest of your analysis of what elitism means in the rest of the world. Which is exactly why the term “elite” doesn’t have as much meaning in America as those that deploy the term seems to think it has. |
“The basic problem, I think, is that you need to be intellectually curious enough to define ‘intellectual curiosity’ in a way that appreciates the value of other forms of ‘intellectual curiosity.’” Sure. But you also should maybe engage in more forms of intellectual curiosity once you get in to public office so you have a better understanding of the field your part of. Palin is an upper middle class, Evangelical, outdoorsy, big-fish/small-pond, fake-folksy politician without a rootedness in the fiscal conservative, pragmatic foreign relations part of the Republican party. That’s totally fine. But it doesn’t do much for me either culturally, intellectually or politically. Nor do I see it as a major political achievement that warrants being a heartbeat away from the presidency. And I’m not happy about that because I would like to vote Republican. I’d also like to vote Democrat, but I’m not yet convinced that Obama has the substance I’d like him to have and I’m wary about how much he is going to be willing to distance himself from the radical parts of his party (plus the Democratic control of Congress is a strike against — I prefer forced bipartisanship and a bit of gridlock to clear mandates). |
“even allowing foreigners to take part by providing for naturalization” Of course they did this to include themselves and others like them. I am not saying this is wrong–I think it entirely appropriate–but it is a different circumstance than Japan. I was once a film afficianado, or fancied myself one. There have been times in my life (pre-netflix, even) when I sought out and watched a film or two on a daily basis and had a lot to say about them. One of my freshman roommates accused me of being a movie-hater. She perceived the fact that I was never quite satisfied or always felt a little something could have been done differently was proof that I hated movies. I, of course, felt that I LOVED movies. But I wanted a perfect movie, which was why I articulated my disappointments about the weaknesses I saw. I feel similarly about America–I love it and want it to be as close to perfect as possible. That is why I sometimes articulate weaknesses that I see. I would guess that many on the left feel similarly. I see the “love America and all that she does no matter what” crowd as lacking intellectual curiosity. How can we (our country) be better? That is what interests me. Not “we are the best so shut up.” I realize these are both rather cartoonish illustrations, but I thought I would try to explain a different attitude toward our country than you seem to hold, DKL. |
ESO- amen! I wish i could have said it the way you said it! Thanks! |
I wonder if a democrat were in office for the past 8 years if republicans would still have that “vision of America” and its values. If we had a president that were a democrat, I think republicans would cry out the same way democrats have been crying out… and it doesn’t mean that they don’t have a good vision for america. we just like to paint ourselves as having the right vision no matter what party we are. |
DKL, I think that bali’s question is important, and it goes back to the point that Jessie raised in comment #1. While I don’t deny that there’s a group of people out there that you describe–disillusioned and distrustful–and that they exist as a subset of the Democratic party, I think you’re painting with too broad of strokes. Both parties have their own version of distrust, and both parties have their own optimistic visions of America. While I find your reading of Sarah Palin compelling, for me it is incomplete. Because tied up with her “Twain-esque” vision for America is a kind of cultural snobbery that I find just as problematic as the Democrat’s tendencies towards intellectual snobbery: the idea that in order to be a “true” American and represent “true American values,” you need to be a soccer mom (or a cowboy, or a war hero, or a fireman, etc.). That in order to represent what is best about America, you need to come from a particular cultural class–”the salt of the earth” for lack of a better phrase. Simultaneously, there is a narrative in the Republican party of distrust (which McCain and Palin have not repudiated)–that government is going to mess things up a lot of the time, and so smaller governments work better than larger ones (because they’re going to interfere with people’s lives less). As ECS said, Barack Obama’s comment about bitter people clinging to guns and religion, however, is in the same vein as Palin’s comments castigating the “elite†and denigrating our government as “bad†while at the same time arguing for more government intervention and regulation. And when I look at the Democratic party, along with the intellectual snobbery that sometimes rears its head, it’s no coincidence that members of groups who have typically been disenfranchised (minorities, students, women) gravitate to the Democratic party in greater numbers than to the Republican party. Part of the vision of the Democratic party is that what makes America great is that she will take care of her own and that she will treat people with equality, and I find that a strong vision of hope and trust that exists alongside the distrust that you point out. So, as Jessie and bali pointed out, I think “what values” and “whose values” are important questions for us to ask. |
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she’s ruining McCain’s campaign. No wonder he wouldn’t let her talk to reporters for so long. |
sorry i meant to post the link where that wsw is in # 24 |
bali: To say that anti-palins distrust America’s values… well I just want to know what values you think I’m distrusting. I think I’m clear enough of that in my post. If you have any specific questions based on that, ask away. |
“…allowing foreigners to take part by providing for naturalization (something that Japan, for example, forbids to this day).” This is untrue. Naturalization in Japan is difficult, but it is not “forbidden.” |
ESO: I feel similarly about America–I love it and want it to be as close to perfect as possible. That is why I sometimes articulate weaknesses that I see. I think it’s curious that you take my exposition to be somehow a blanket endorsement of everything American — as though Mark Twain were not also heavily critical of America and Americans, even in Innocents Abroad. As though Palin supports everything American unquestionably. As though part of the political process doesn’t involve arguing about real disagreements and being critical of real problems. What bugs me is that when I criticize tax policy it’s because I want to let the rich off the hook. When I want social security reform, it’s because I want to starve old people. When I want to reform welfare, it’s because I want to starve poor people. But every liberal who touts disagreement with US policy gets to say so because they love it. Personally, I think that you’re comment is a cop out. The issue isn’t being critical of American, but being distrustful of our fellow Americans and accusing them to be shallow or ignorant as a result of our disagreements. The problem with Hemingway isn’t that he was critical of the US, it’s that he had a deep seated distrust of Americans who disagreed with him. That’s what I find objectionable about him. |
It’s a bit ironic that Mark Twain was both rather misanthropic at times and a political progressive. Of course, I’m not sure that either party can extrapolate his views and personality to our current time and claim him fully. One thing is sure: I would love to read his take on Palin, McCain, Obama, and Clinton (and Biden). |
“The problem with Hemingway isn’t that he was critical of the US, it’s that he had a deep seated distrust of Americans who disagreed with him. That’s what I find objectionable about him.” I’ll drink to that. |
Saraphine: I think you’re painting with too broad of strokes [describing liberals]. Actually, the liberals I’m describing are the far left, which is most of the mainstream media. And I’m describing why they’re attacking her. So I think that you’re painting with too broad a brush if you describe my post that way. Furthermore, this is an argument for why cultural people aren’t debasing themselves for supporting Palin, why she’s a natural fit for educated voters. Saying that Wolf represents a segment of the far left doesn’t lay a finger on my broader point, but it does allow some amount of venting for liberals who don’t like to hear Palin’s ambitions justified in cultural terms. |
DKL, this is a very good analysis, although Sarah’s voice is pretty shrill. I still think she should modulate it. It so reminds me of my own voice. Wm Morris, that’s the best argument for voting for McCain I’ve heard anywhere. |
You mischaracterize Twain’s attitudes about his fellow countrymen. Especially in his later works, there is a deep pessimism about the so-called common man: they are usually portrayed as fools at best, bullies at worst. Twain hated the South — he refused to live there and only visited when well-paid. He loved Connecticut, and his associates were the intellectuals of his time. If he was less cynical in his earlier works (and I don’t think I read Innocents the same way you do — I see a thick slice of irony on it), he came around. And Hemingway loved Twain. |
I can’t wait for the election to be over so that we can all just admit that Palin is a moron that never should have been tapped for a VP nom. Until then — I agree DKL, she’s a wonderful pick and I couldn’t agree more with your analysis. |
#34 LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
BTW, I love it that you’re associating a dislike of Palin with a mistrust of America. A great rhetorical move. |
William Morris: It’s a bit ironic that Mark Twain was both rather misanthropic at times and a political progressive Yes, and Hemingway shot his own head in Idaho. Twain’s thematic voice is what I’m talking about, and he personally embodied that voice a lot less than Hemingway personally embodied his. |
DKL, Thanks for the clarification. I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on our views of the media. I see the media as neither right nor left–they’re their own group of people with their own set of agendas, and they often get a lot of stuff wrong. Here’s my read on McCain, Palin, and the media. McCain, up until this past year was the darling of the media elite. He has a long history of throwing parties (and barbeques, etc.) for the reporters who covered him. For many intents and purposes, the media was “McCain’s party” (when neither the Republicans nor the Democrats wanted him). I think what’s been happening over the last few months is that as McCain’s grown steadily critical of his and Palin’s media coverage, the media elite has seen this as a betrayal, and as a result, the coverage of McCain has grown steadily less glowing and more critical. Yes, there are distortions of McCain and Palin’s records, etc., but there are distortions with any candidate (see mediamatters.org as a site that follows the distortions of the media, especially when it comes to their portrayal of liberal and progressive candidates). I think what you’re seeing now is that there are now just as many critical distortions of McCain and Palin as there are of the rest of the candidates. And generally, I appreciate the point you’re making about how those who support Palin aren’t debasing themselves. I can actually see her appeal, and while I may try to convince others I know (especially those on the fence) to vote for Obama, Biden, I recognize that there are very real, cogent reasons to vote for McCain/Palin. At the same time, your argument sounded like you were saying Democrats look down on Republicans and Republicans see the value in all Americans (and don’t look down on others), and I think this is way too general of a summary of the values/attitudes of each party. This may have been a misreading on my part, but I wanted to point out that there’s snobbery that runs both ways, if this *is* what you were saying. |
Norbert: And Hemingway loved Twain. And I love Hemingway’s writings. I’ve read nearly everything that he’s written (including every one of his short stories). That’s all beside the point. Norbert: You mischaracterize Twain’s attitudes about his fellow countrymen. I was waiting for someone to say this. Actually, if you read my post as carefully as you pretend to read Twain, you’ll see that I expressly acknowledge that he was highly critical of his fellow countrymen, saying Twain wrote of Europeans being “just as petty and crass and exploitative in commercializing their culture as Americans” (emphasis added). Norbert: Especially in his later works, there is a deep pessimism about the so-called common man. Please point out where I talk about Twain’s attitude toward the common man. I stand by my literary interpretation, and I conclude that you haven’t laid a finger on it. |
I used to vote republican (until about 2002). My sister still leans that way. She told me that she is still angry with McCain for selecting Palin. She says she thinks that there are lots of competent, articulate, rational, conservative female republicans who would make a much better candidate than Palin. Since I am now a democrat, I do not claim to be an expert at who else would have been available as a potential conservative female running mate for McCain, but I would hope that for the sake of the next election and the long term health of the GOP (I do believe in a two party system) that my sister is right. |
I think Palin is a little more Twang than Hemingway, if you know what I mean. |
“For nearly a century, American literature was no more innately American than English translations of Chateaubriand’s Atala or René, until Mark Twain emerged in the 1860s as the first American literary voice.” You’re dismissing Melville and Hawthorne here. Why? |
Nah, it’s not that complicated, man. All of your reasoning above doesn’t mean she’s qualified to be the VP, it just means people like her and people don’t like her. And no amount of verbal jiu jitsu can justify her lack of knowledge of Supreme Court decisions (among other things). |
Mark Twain would have despised Palin. |
Well, since we’re all speaking for the departed Twain, I’m pretty sure he would NOT have despised Palin, I’m pretty sure he would’ve lusted after her and wanted to tame her. That sort of thing happens to me all the time. |
annegb, FTW! |
MCQ: You’re dismissing Melville and Hawthorne here. Why? Mellville didn’t become recognized as a significant American author until well after his death, so he can’t be said to have “emerged” as an American literary voice before Twain, even if his publish-dates precede those of Twain’s. Regarding Hawthorne, I hold him in high regard, as I do Louisa May Alcott, who was contemporary with Twain. I don’t mean to judge them as second rate by saying that they don’t have a uniquely American literary voice. They were dealing with American themes and American locations with characters and literary voices largely indistinguishable from those written by authors across the Atlantic. In other words, if you changed the names and the places, you end up with something that’s not quite different enough from British literature to call, “uniquely American.” Likewise, Copland wasn’t the first (or best) significant American composer, but he certainly invented the American idiom in classical Music. Furthermore, Twain actually confronted the European/American divide, and was the first American to do so with dispassionate confidence and without defensiveness or undue nationalism. (de Tocqueville did this in the field of political science, but he wasn’t an American.) |
Rusty: Nah, it’s not that complicated, man. All of your reasoning above doesn’t mean she’s qualified to be the VP, it just means people like her and people don’t like her. And no amount of verbal jiu jitsu can justify her lack of knowledge of Supreme Court decisions (among other things). Oh, please. This has nothing to do with her qualifications, because I tacitly assume that she’s qualified; i.e., it’s a given. Her lack of knowledge of Supreme Court decisions is no more important than Biden’s bizarre mischaracterizations of the US Constitution in the VP debate. In fact, the entire point of the post is, as I’ve stated repeatedly, to explain why people who purport to be intellectuals can like her, and don’t have to bite their lips when they support her. This isn’t verbal jiu jitsu, It’s the entire point of the post. |
Hmmm. I would still characterize Melville and Hawthorne as “uniquely American” but I do agree with your final paragraph. |
Laurie: Mark Twain would have despised Palin. Perhaps, but largely beside the point. It is fallacious to identify Mark Twain with the literary voice he created. Even so, it’s a debatable point. On the one hand, he was prone to make fun of everybody he met, no matter what their background, so if he hated Palin, he’d likely have hated McCain, Obama, and Biden, too. (Which, again, makes his personal feelings irrelevant.) On the other hand, Twain was politically progressive. Late-20th century and 21st century conservatives are actually closer to the views of late-19th and early 20th century radical progressives than liberals are. For example, the work environment of today that we take for granted goes way beyond many of the reforms advocated even by self-proclaimed radicals like Upton Sinclair. It’s likely that they’d view the huge government programs that Democrats support and that are inevitably parsed out by lobbyists as corruption and graft. |
In fact, the entire point of the post is, as I’ve stated repeatedly, to explain why people who purport to be intellectuals can like her, and don’t have to bite their lips when they support her. 1) Yes, they CAN like her, but they don’t. Their “she’s an idiot” trumps your “she’s America” nuance. 2) Yes, they can LIKE her, but liking her doesn’t qualify her for the VP spot. I like you, DKL, but you aren’t qualified to do my job. Her lack of knowledge of Supreme Court decisions is no more important than Biden’s bizarre mischaracterizations of the US Constitution in the VP debate. Except when it is. And by the logic you were using on me on your last post, whatever the public deems important is important, whether or not it really is important. If Palin’s expectations for the debate mean something to the public, then they mean something. If her lack of knowledge of Supreme Court decisions are important to the public, then they are important. And my perception is that people think her idiocy in the Couric interviews is important. And one thing that doesn’t make sense, why do you just assume she’s qualified? I want to give you more credit than taking McCain’s word for it. Am I not understanding you correctly? |
Rusty: And one thing that doesn’t make sense, why do you just assume she’s qualified? I want to give you more credit than taking McCain’s word for it. Am I not understanding you correctly? Because reasonable people can disagree about whether she’s qualified — if you don’t believe that, then we’ve got nothing to talk about. In my first paragraph, I relate that my Democratic friends ask me how a guy like me can like her (viz., “what I see in her”). They’re not asking why I think that she’s qualified. Rusty: And by the logic you were using on me on your last post, whatever the public deems important is important, whether or not it really is important. Only you’re not the public. At most, you’re a public. You’re committing the fallacy of division here. Rusty: Yes, [people who purport to be an intellectual] CAN like her, but they don’t. Actually, I purport to be an intellectual, and I’m describing why I like her. I know many people who purport to be intellectuals who like her. And there are many conservative pundits who really like her. They may have different reasons from me, and that’s fine. But I’ve built a solid rock-solid case that it’s possible for intellectuals to enthusiastically like Sarah Palin without compromising their intellectual values. In other words, I’ve answered the question I pose in opening paragraph; viz., “what I see in Sarah Palin.” My answer is so rock-solid that (with 50+ comments) nobody’s laid a finger on it. Do you want to try your hand at crafting an argument that it’s impossible for intellectuals to like Sarah Palin without compromising their intellectual rigor? I suppose I could just call everyone an idiot who brings up qualifications, but I think that’s expecting too much. Instead, I’ll just advise them to actually read the post. |
DKL, Have you read David Mamet’s essay “Why I am No Longer a Brain-Dead Liberal” ? After reading the post, it immediately came to mind as it seems that, according to your views on Hemingway and Twain, he has switched from a Hemingway type of view to that of Twain. |
Tim J, I haven’t read that essay, but I’ve heard of it. Is it available online? Thanks, I consider it a great compliment to be compared with David Mamet. Everybody wants to be David Mamet. That’s why they call him David Mamet. |
DKL, But maybe I’m just confused about who you consider an intellectual. |
Rusty: But constructing a good reason to like Palin doesn’t negate the validity of the reasons to not like Palin. True enough. I don’t think that I’ll persuade anyone to like her. At most, I’ll make some people who already like Palin more comfortable with the idea. But I do have friends who actually tend to think you have to be an idiot to really like her — even if she is arguably qualified. You live and work in NYC, so you probably do, too. And it’s not uncommon to hear people quoted in the press as saying, “You have to be a bozo to like Palin.” I don’t think this is an uncommon view. Thus, my essay is saying, “No. You don’t have to be a bozo to like Palin. There are intellectually sound reasons for liking her.” |
DKL, see here” http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-03-11/news/why-i-am-no-longer-a-brain-dead-liberal/1 It’s been a while since I’ve read it, but it seems to follow this basic premise. |
Why are we wasting so much time analyzing Sarah Palin in context of American writers. That’s just a waste of time. American writers are worthless. We really need to find out what Horace Engdahl thinks of Sarah Palin. That’s right, Horace Engdahl. |
Intelligent and intellectual ain’t the same thing. |
Horace Engdahl. LOL! That’s very, very funny. |
As I see it, I would more likely to find Palin in a Hemingway book: Big game hunter, big fish catcher, bull fighter, individualist, self serving, ambitious, trying to be “a man”. I don’t see her life as other serving, but self serving. I don’t see a Huck Finn.. |
Bob, I think that’s a superficial analysis of Hemingway. The protagonist of The Old Man and the Sea is a fisherman, and the book covers a fishing trip. But the book isn’t a book primarily about fishing. |
A link for Dave: |
Yeah, that’s typical of Hemingway. Another good example is his story “The Short Happy Life of Francis McComber.” If you think it’s a story about lion hunting in Nairobi, you better read it again. |
Kaimi, Thanks for the link. I understand that’s a great book, and I plan to read it when the moratorium on buying new books in my house is lifted. I do read Jonah’s blog on liberal fascism at National Review Online. The premise of the book is that communism, socialism, and American liberalism are all ideologically closer to fascism than so-called “right wing” conservative philosophies. This premise indisputably correct, and rather obvious unless you’re a communist, socialist, or American liberal, in which case the fact that it even comes up is proof that their opponents are evil. Goldberg goes further than simply pointing out the obvious fact that authoritarian political philosophies tend to be quite similar, and actually draws the history of collaboration between American liberals and fascism throughout the 20th century. I like Goldberg a lot. He’s a very clever writer. In fact, I quoted him in just the past few weeks on this very blog. Specifically, I sited him for saying this on the National Review Online:
I still think the image of Biden on Meet the Press shouting “Get these squirrels off of me” is among the funnier bits of campaign humor this election season, but not quite as bad as some of the egregiously idiotic gaffes Biden made in last weeks’ debate when he struggled to talk about the US Constitution, the middle east, and pretty much anything else that mattered. |
MCQ, that happens to be my favorite short story by Hemingway. |
Tim J, just read the Mamet essay. Top notch stuff. Very much along the same lines of what I’m writing, just not geared at any specific candidate, and much more clever and well-written than anything I’ve written. |
Mine too. Very, very good stuff. |
#62: No, it’s an analysis of the superficial Palin. |
I am surprised to see palin compared to twain particularly when you think of twain’s anti-imperialist league and denouncing of what he saw as american imperialism in the oppression of the Filipino people. It was his friend and colleague who said G-D- America,william james. Perhaps, I am wrong but it seems to me that twain was against many of the warmongering he saw in his day, read his war prayer or damned human race. he called Teddy Roosevelt who McCain loves, “clearly insane…and insanest upon war and its supreme glories.” |
Bob, not really proving manhood. It’s more about the effect of finally achieving manhood. |
But Mark Twain travelled the world. Palin never got a passport until last year; she has never travelled as a common person and see how everyday people live in other countries. This is huge. George W. Bush was the same way, and it impacted his worldview and willingness to invade other countries. I think that if politicians saw how well things work in other countries, they might be more understanding of America’s place in the 22d century. |
I don’t care about Twain vs. Hemingway because that is just a matter of style. I want substance. I don’t know about everything to do with foreign policy or the name of the commanding general in Afghanistan (although she should have). I do know about health care. And I know that the average price of individually purchased health insurance for a family of four runs over $12,000 nowadays. So how is McCain/Palin’s much touted $5,000 tax credit going to help families? It leaves a shortfall. I’m not one of Twain’s children, I’m one of…well,I can’t think of an American mathematician, and since this is simple arithmetic, it would be insulting, anyway. |
Naismith: Palin never got a passport until last year… she has never travelled as a common person and see how everyday people live in other countries. She’s the mother of 5 children, living on a modest income. More important than being in touch with what foreigners need, she’s actually in touch with what American’s need. Almost nobody travels as a common person when they’re an adult. Travel is expensive, and adults have jobs. If you travel the world as an adult, chances are you’re earning an above average amount of money. Besides, traveling abroad doesn’t actually tell you a lot about people in other countries — not any more than traveling to Provo tells you a lot about Mormonism. Naismith: This is huge. George W. Bush was the same way, and it impacted his worldview and willingness to invade other countries. This is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard: George Bush invaded other countries because he’d never visited them. How do you explain Condoleezza Rice, Dick Cheney, and Colin Powell? Naismith: I think that if politicians saw how well things work in other countries, they might be more understanding of America’s place in the 22d century. Or maybe they should just hire you to explain it to them. ;) Naismith: I don’t care about Twain vs. Hemingway because that is just a matter of style. I want substance. WTF? Did you even read the post? Naismith: I don’t know… name of the commanding general in Afghanistan (although she should have). I do know about health care. Palin mispronounced his name. Biden didn’t use the name, showing no evidence that he knew it. Plus, he mischaracterized the man’s military opinions, providing evidence that he didn’t listen to the man. I take Palin over that any day. But, as I’ve said repeatedly, this has nothing to do with qualifications, because my essay takes it for granted that she’s qualified. Naismith: And I know that the average price of individually purchased health insurance for a family of four runs over $12,000 nowadays. So how is McCain/Palin’s much touted $5,000 tax credit going to help families? It leaves a shortfall. Read this or this. They explain why Biden’s idiotic characterization of the McCain health care proposal is just as bad as his idiotic characterization of the Constitution and his idiotic characterization of the Middle East and his idiotic characterization of US military strategy in Afghanistan. Naismith: I’m not one of Twain’s children, I’m one of…well, I can’t think of an American mathematician, and since this is simple arithmetic, it would be insulting, anyway. I think your archetypal literary category relates more to your gullibility to your math skills. |
Bob: #65: “This premise indisputably correct..â€. No, only to someone is making a superficial analysis. Stop being defensive; I already knew you wouldn’t like being called superficial when I wrote it. Furthermore, when I used the exact phrase with you, I provided an argument to back it up. It’s predictably superficial of you to simply parrot my words. |
Thanks for the writeup, DKL. Although it is not compelling for me personally, I can see how a lot of people would see things this way and how it would make sense to them. I think it was Heidegger who warned of the dangers of holding people who think the same as you in higher esteem from those who think different. I see a lot of this demonizing going on with the presidential elections. It is easier to just dismiss people who think differently as less intelligent rather than be forced to engage their arguments. Anyway, I enjoyed the writeup, it gave me a different perspective on how the candidates can be viewed. |
Joshua Madsen, please read the post — carefully. If you still don’t get it, then read the comments. I’ve answered that attempt at criticism again and again. |
RickFFM, thanks for the kind words. |
#17 Howard, 100% agree. DKL, Interestingly, I think the Obama camp best argues for their candidate using similar criteria. However, when refering to Main Street or other shades of Americana, Americans almost have to solely trust Palin as she is the closest thing to an insider on the “average American” issues. I thought that was the strength of her debate- her first-person account of a recently middle-class life. Biden did well in that tone, as well, though his current situation is so far from it now, it’s harder to connect the idea to the man. |
well… yeah but… she USED to be the closest thing to main street. Actually her and Biden come from similar backgrounds, and now have similar incomes. Even before Palin was Governer she made over 200,000 a year. |
refer to my statement above about Palin’s income. |
Jessie, you’re argument is bad and your numbers are wrong. Regarding your argument, even if your numbers were correct, it wouldn’t change the fact that for most of her life as a mother, Palin did live on a modest income raising many children. Regarding the numbers: The Alaska Governor’s Salary is $125,000. The adjusted gross income for Sarah and Todd Palin in 2007 was $166,080. The Palin’s income went up dramatically when she became Governor, and she now earns more than her husband. I doubt you were actually lying or trying to deceive when you made your argument and your assertion, just repeating the lies and deception you’d heard elsewhere. |
DKL I spoke too soon, I’ve been searching for the source I read that on. What I should have said is that combined they made 6 figures, not 200,000. It’s till way more than most americans. I wasn’t making an argument, i was pointing that out. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081002/ap_on_el_pr/palins_finances_6 and might I just say that you could at least ask me what source I got the info from before blatantly dismissing me as wrong or accusing me as ignorant. kthanxbai. |
#73: I will stop being defensive when you stop being offensive. |
Jessie, thanks for coming back to admit you’re wrong about the numbers — most commenters I spar with just take off. We all make mistakes, as I did when I supposed that the $200K number was something you were parroting from another source rather than an inadvertent misstatement. You’re still mistaken about the argument: You actually did make an argument. Specifically, that because she made 200k, she was not the closest thing to main street. The argument is still wrong. |
DKL- since I’m “mistaken” I”ll clarify.
I don’t agree with this statement because to me, someone who makes more than 100,000 probably doesn’t understand what its like to not be able to pay the rent/mortgage, have no health insurance, and not be able to afford sending their kids to college. If you’re talking about the Palin of years ago being in the middle class, then I can agree. But it’s been a long time since she’s been in the middle class. |
Bob: No one’s “premise (is) indisputably correct. Not your’s, not mine, (even this one is only half correct). Oh, sure they are. It is indisputably correct to say that Christmas falls on December 25th on the calendars used in the USA, that the URL for this blog is http://www.mormonmentality.org, that this year is reckoned as 2008 on the Gregorian calendar, that my car is registered in Massachusetts, that Amazon sells books, that London is the capitol of England, that Alaska is usually colder in the winter than Florida, that Utah is in a different time zone than New York, that Australia is south of the equator, that there are 100 elected Senators. I could go on and on. This is easy. |
“I don’t agree with this statement because to me, someone who makes more than 100,000 probably doesn’t understand what its like to not be able to pay the rent/mortgage, have no health insurance, and not be able to afford sending their kids to college.” Making less than $200k with 5 kids in Alaska where cost of living is pretty extreme, puts you squarely in the middle class. And not EVERYONE on Main St. is having trouble paying rent/mortgage, or does not have health insurance. I’m not sure why everyone insists this. |
I didn’t insist that it was EVERYONE. What do you think the middle class issues are then? |
I agree with Tim J. alaska is expensive, you can’t say just because she’s made over 100,000 she isn’t middle class |
Yes, I see that… but then you must be willing to consider Biden’s views on the middle class valid as well. |
I wanted to buy some glasses like Sarah’s and I went on-line and they cost $340. No way could I afford that. I’ve bought some really cute frames from Wal-Mart’s reading glass case for $12 and I’m going to have my prescription put in them. |
#91 Jessie, I refered to Biden’s account of middle-classhood in a positive light as well. I simply said that I think the connection is weak for him, whereas it is front and center for Palin. One illustration of this is an op-ed I read recently in the NYT from a high-strung public school liberal. She woefully bemoaned the fact that the Dem candidates had their children in fancy private schools, as did McCain. She especially bemoaned the fact that the only person she could look to for support in her cause was…Sarah Palin. There are many things that define the middle-class. Only one of them is household income. |
this is true. |
#87: A premise is not a fact, it’s an assumption. |
Bob, a premise is anything that an argument is based on, like “All men are mortal.” |
“We (I) have no idea of the Palin household income” Income taxes show around $166K for the household each of the past 2 years. Biden made nearly twice as much as Palin. And I don’t think the middle-class public necessarily see a lifelong politician as one of their own. But I admit I could be wrong. |
#96: What a ‘premise’ is depends on the discipline or context in which it is used. For me, a premise can be based on an argument, but an argument should not be based on a premise. |
“Biden states that he has been listed as the second poorest member in Congress, a distinction that he is not proud of, but attributes it to being elected early in his career.” (Wikipedia) |
“For me, a premise can be based on an argument, but an argument should not be based on a premise.” So what do you base your arguments on then? Your argument must begin somewhere and be based on some set of assumptions … what do you call those assumptions? Do you begin with a conclusion and from that deconstruct a premise? |
Who says that the person with the lowest income is the one that that you should trust to best understand “middle-class” issues? |
I don’t know, Seraphine. Who does say that? |
DKL, You make an interesting case for how an intellectual can like Palin (w/o holding their nose). But that doesn’t necessarily make your argument intellectual nor does it mean that you’ve taken an intellectual approach. In fact the whole post is very anti-intellectual – using phrases like “inspiring story” and “Sarah Palin is the type of person I want to succeed”. All this coming from a guy who critiques the sentence structure of comments on a blog. Now, I can live with that – you could very easily argue that Obama’s rise to the nomination has been due to some irrational arguments. That seems to be how a lot of politicians get there first shot (JFK, Reagan). But let’s call it what it is. Your thesis could very easily be, “How Rationalists use Irrational Arguments” or “Intellectuals Have Feelings Too”. With this in mind, I’m led to believe that you’re picking and choosing the arguments you want to approach in an un-intellectual way based on a predetermined worldview. That she is qualified is admittedly taken for granted in your post, but her party affiliation is even more so. |
CJ Douglass, your basis for saying that it’s anti-intellectual is pseudo-intellectual. I really get tired of aspiring intellectuals trying to explain to me what intellectual is or isn’t. Novelists — even highly intellectual novelists — routinely craft characters and narratives around them who are likable, inspiring, and who we want to succeed. The notion that we understand our lives as an intersection of narratives is a highly intellectual notion that’s as old as Aristotle and that has been revived recently by noted intellectual Alasdair MacIntyre. Another way to phrase the purpose of this article is like this, “it crafts a narrative around Sarah Palin that makes it palatable for intellectuals to like her.” There’s nothing irrational or un-intellectual about this. If I were so terribly enamored by McCain (I view him as better than Obama by a long shot, but undesirable otherwise), you might have some ground for saying that I’m reasoning backwards in order to reach the conclusion that my party endorses. I do have my own worldview, as you do yours. I don’t see that as relevant. |
#100: I believe an argument should be based on facts. An argument can be made about a premise. But the premise can not be used to as evidence to prove itself within the argument. I try to go forward. From premise, theory, or assumption, to argument by facts, to a conclusion. But like others, I often fail by starting with my conclusion. |
DKL, You’re right that I’m no intellectual. You’re wrong that I’m trying to be one.
This notion you speak of is not irrational. Turning Sarah Palin into your own version of Huck Finn is. |
CJ Douglass: Turning Sarah Palin into your own version of Huck Finn is [irrational]. Irrelevant. I’m not trying to identify Sarah Palin with any specific character. Instead, I’m trying to place her in landscape narratives that constituted Mark Twain emerging American voice. |
“Naismith: Palin never got a passport until last year… she has never travelled as a common person and see how everyday people live in other countries. DKL: She’s the mother of 5 children, living on a modest income. More important than being in touch with what foreigners need, she’s actually in touch with what American’s need.” I’m the mother of 5 children, living on a modest income. I’ve taken each of my children to at least five foreign countries. It’s part of their education. I can’t really relate to Palin much as a mom of 5. But then, none of my kids got pregnant and I was convinced that my family was best served by having me home after school, not out running our local town. “Almost nobody travels as a common person when they’re an adult.” Do you have data to back that up? All my friends and family have taken more than one overseas trip. |
“Travel is expensive, and adults have jobs. If you travel the world as an adult, chances are you’re earning an above average amount of money.” This is such a myth. When I took my daughter to Paris for spring break a few years back, I had thought about going to Montreal. It was cheaper to go to Paris. About 1/3 less airfare, 2/3 less hotel bill. Food was about the same. And they don’t have the Louvre in Montreal (to which college students get a discount with their student ID). Europe has gotten more pricey since the EU and our recent deficit spending, but lots of other countries offer bargains. We did just did a bit over a week in Mexico, and it was much cheaper than in the US (especially since gas for the car was much cheaper there). My kids have found it a huge eye opener to see how other people live. |
#106: “My kids have found it a huge eye opener to see how other people live.” |
Naismith, Do you make an above average amount of money? Or do you run up your credit? Pardon such intrusive questions, but my wife and I plan on traveling under a few conditions: 1) no going into debt- have to be able to afford a trip with cash on hand With those values, its very tight to afford travel, even to my Parents in SoCal. In that sense, I wonder how you qualify your comments. And I think it more noble to stay home to “run a town”- AKA community involvement than to travel abroad. Nature, Good books, and local museums can provide great educational experiences. Those things and your community could also use your support. |
““Almost nobody travels as a common person when they’re an adult.†Do you have data to back that up? All my friends and family have taken more than one overseas trip.” You could look at passport statistics: http://travel.state.gov/passport/services/stats/stats_890.html Based on this it looks like less than 30% of Americans have a valid Passport. |
A hundred and twelve comments in and no one has yet remarked on DKL’s charming misspelling of Hemingway’s name. I’m sure Hemingway would be pleased in earnest. |
#112: Good look up. But I have been all over Europe, but no longer have a valid passport. |
Bob, “I have been all over Europe, but no longer have a valid passport.” That works in reverse as well. I have a passport but only used it to go to Germany one time, for one day, for work. I didn’t bring my family with me and my wife has never left the US. |
“Do you make an above average amount of money? Or do you run up your credit? Pardon such intrusive questions, but my wife and I plan on traveling under a few conditions.” Neither. But we live a lot like we did as graduate students. We only have basic cable, we have a smallish house, we commute by bicycle and when we have to drive have simple cost-effective cars, we use food storage and almost never eat out when we are in town, I make my clothes or buy them at thrift stores. Travel is our priority. “And I think it more noble to stay home to “run a townâ€- AKA community involvement than to travel abroad.” I don’t think one has to choose between the two. It’s not like we’re never home. We travel overseas once every other year on average. Well, okay, this year was Taiwan, Bahamas and Mexico. “Nature, Good books, and local museums can provide great educational experiences.” Sure, but let’s not pretend it’s the same as walking through a Taipei night market, climbing one of the Alps, or visiting a Mayan ruin. Not to mention going to church in any of those places. But then, one of my children works for the US state department, and thus blesses the lives of all USAmericans. That’s a career that might not have been considered or been qualified for without some previous exposure to other cultures. Don’t you think it is cheaper to travel to Mexico than Southern California? I was in Orange County for a conference, and it struck me as very expensive. |
About health care…DKL, of course I’ve read the essays you suggested. I am not convinced. All of them use a phrase like “let’s assume.” Those assumptions are what I don’t buy. A centerpiece of the McCain proposal is to allow people to buy health insurance in another state. What does this really mean? Well, some states have more “mandated coverage” than others. In some places, birth control must be covered. In others, not required. So what he is advocating is that people be able to buy stripped-down policies, “deregulated” health insurance. The catch is that a year or so down the road, folks find themselves in a “John Q” moment: needing care, thinking they have coverage, finding that there are limits or exclusions, ending up bankrupt. Medical bills are already the biggest reason for bankruptcy, this would just make it worse. He also envisions a system in which workers can accept employer-offered coverage, or take the money and buy their own. That is not sustainable. What happens is that young, healthy folks take the money and go bare. Odds are it might work for them, but then the risk pool is shifted. Also, I am sure that a lot of employers will get out of the business. In 1997, the economy was thriving, and employers felt they had to offer health insurance to attract the best workers. So in 1998, many offered coverage, and lots of folks were covered. But a lot of young workers felt they were paying in lots of cash without any benefit, and they declined the next year. This made coverage for the remaining employees more expensive so that the 2000 rates skyrocketed. It is not a simple problem, and I am not sure the McCain assumptions will be proven accurate. |
ECS, blame the spell checker. |
I do not fault Palin personally for not having a passport, or not traveling. I do require that someone who runs for, or may be come the leader of my country, has the background, knowledge and understanding of an awful lot of things, to carry out the duties of that office. Knowing about the world, is one of those things. |
Naismith #116, I hope you won’t fault people for whom travel is not a priority. For me, given the choice, I would probably take a week on the Pacific Crest Trail or biking through Yellowstone over a Taipei night market. I can respect the choice for the exotic, but its not my personal first choice. I would jump at some of those opportunities, though. |
#120: I have done some of the John Muir Trail, so you must be father north. |
#122: That’s farther north. |
“I do not fault Palin personally for not having a passport, or not traveling.” I don’t fault her, either. I just think she lacks insights for being a commander in chief because of it. Obama, who had to learn Bahasa Indonesia as a child, understands firsthand what it is like to go into a foreign country and try to learn the culture and language. He could have foreseen many of the problems that were our undoing in Iraq. Which is probably part of why he opposed the war in the beginning. Also, I forgot to say that we love the LETS GO travel guide series and they have helped us a lot with affording international travel. Also, Central America is a great place for larger-than-usual LDS families to vacation, because they routinely have hotel rooms with three double beds and hammock hooks. |
Naismith: understands firsthand what it is like to go into a foreign country and try to learn the culture and language… So do millions of people in the US, and most of them are way, way less intelligent that Sarah Palin. Very few of them could get elected governor, and none of them would have an 80% approval rating. That’s just not an important qualification for president. Sure, it sounds good, and in the context of a conversation at a bowling alley, it might even strike a few people as profound. But the truth is that Obama’s reversed every distinguishing characteristic of his foreign policy, so that the positions that he advocates on Iran and North Korea and Iraq are materially indistinguishable from the Bush policies. Fat lot of good it did to spend a childhood in Indonesia. |
I’m afraid that’s faulting her. I know Obama is traveled. He’s been to all the Caribean hot spots this election year. I don’t think that helps his foreign policy, though. Thanks for the recommendation, I’m going to look into that travel guide. |
You know, whatever you think of Palin, you have to admit it was the smartest move available. When you’re behind with a minute left to play and it’s 4th down, you don’t punt the ball. You gotta go for it. No matter how crazy your play is, you gotta go for it. Romney, Pawlenty or Ridge would have been punting. Lieberman would have been an interesting 4th down play, but I sense that he would have done even less for the campaign than Palin. I’m not sure what else people think McCain ought to have done – the playbook is pretty sparse. |
“For me, given the choice, I would probably take a week on the Pacific Crest Trail…” I love that part of the world, too. Now that the forest service service is relying on electronic monitors and airplane surveillance, they are renting out a lot of their lookout towers, which I thought would be waycool to stay in. I couldn’t find a tower for the times we were out there, but the cabin at Clackamas Lake is yards from the PCT http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/recreation/rentals/#mth It would be a great option for a larger-than-usual family, because it sleeps 8, with a full kitchen, for just $80 per night nowadays. Utterly charming, and our kids loved practicing with the fire escape ladder. But as for choosing one option over the other, how can you know until you have actually been there? I always choose to go someplace new, when I have time and money. |
Eric Russell, that’s a very good point. But the truth is that nobody commenting here is saying anything that the press didn’t already say in the first 3 hours after McCain selected her. This is the pattern: No matter what one says, and no matter how original it is, cult-like, Democrats will tend to repeat the same tired old mantras (most of which arose during the McGovern candidacy). |