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Wow, I’m glad I read this. Now I can show this to my wife when I don’t want to help with child care or housework. I certainly don’t want to make her unhappy. Jeff, the message of the church for at least the past ten years is that men actually are supposed to do as much of the child care and house cleaning as they possibly can. I don’t know what you are calling “the literature”, but everybody I know who has studied marriages has told me that the happiest ones are the most egalitarian ones. |
I’ve referred to this as an abolition of gender within marriage. (I usually don’t use “gender” in place of “sex,” but in this context it would be confusing not to.) Even without regard to homosexuality, that is what some people want. I expect there will be several responses to this post questioning the assertion that husband and wife have well understood meanings or whether they should. |
John #2, I take your point. In fact, we might well say that the undermining of traditional gender roles has prepared the ground for same sex marriage. In that sense, the advent of same sex marriage is more a symptom, than a cause, of the decline of traditional marriage. Interestingly, decades ago when the Church was opposing the Equal Rights Amendment, they said the ideas behind absolutely equal rights could lead to gay marriage. That position looks, um, prophetic… Mark#1: I try to help with child care and housework. I’m not saying we shouldn’t! But women are better at it. We have a responsibility to share and help each other. In that sense, I agree that an “egalitarian” marriage is an ideal. But I don’t think we should take every single job in the household and demand that each party in the marriage contribute exactly 50% to each. |
Interesting post. I was in a psychology of gender class at BYU (far more liberal a class than you would ever guess- and rather anti-men, I have to say) and we discussed married gender roles. Whereas first a husband is provider and wife is nurturer, the rare episodes of exception most often require role reversal, rather than role dispersal, wherein the wife becomes provider and husband becomes nurturer. The roles nevertheless exist and I think the wisdom of the “separation of powers” is supreme, regardless of the distribution. One interesting point is the fact that “male” and “female” are mentioned in the proclamation in order to establish gender as divine, though the balance of the proclamation is dedicated to “husband” and “wife”. |
When you mention androgeny, interesting implications arise. The proclamation creates a distinct identity for a family unit by providing a foundation of gender identity and role identity (No doubt these ideas are apt to be the subjects of rebellion as they seem to be a mold to be conformed to). More importantly, if those things are taken away from the family or marriage definiton, what identity is left? What self-image,esteem, or other conscious representation of self is left? The psychological ramifications are as frightening for such a thing as I’m sure the psychological burdens are for someone trying to adhere to the Gospel while dealing with SSA. |
But women are better at it. Again, Wow. Please don’t ever stand up in church and say that women do the cooking and cleaning because God made them better at it. You really are pretty far out of bounds here. |
The main argument of this post seems to be a bit of a stretch: homosexual marriages will be weak because they abolish gender roles. The reasoning is as follows…heterosexual marriages that lack gender roles are generally weaker. Thus homosexual marriages (which apparently lack gender roles) will likewise suffer and/or have an adverse affect on society. This argument seems to me to be a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Lets set aside the question of whether gays will or won’t follow traditional provider/nurturer roles. My point is that you can’t say IF androgynous heterosexual marriages are “less stable,†THEN androgynous homorosexual marriages will also be less stable. Example: When a banana is green, it is not ripe. Thus when an apple is green, it is not ripe either. The logic of this statement is flawed. Conditions specific to one fruit do not apply to all fruit. |
“Please don’t ever stand up in church and say that women do the cooking and cleaning because God made them better at it. ” yeah, Julie Beck did so in conference and look what happened to her… |
Mansfield, I’ll make a prophet out of you and question the assertion that husband and wife have well-understood meanings. Our parents understood husband and wife differently than we do. Our children will understand those meanings differently than we do, too. In the latest world-wide training meeting, Sister Lant cautioned against an overly rigid understanding of gender roles, because she had observed in her own family how her children and their spouses were arranging things differently than she might have, but nonetheless in a way that promoted gospel living. When we want to take whatever we understand at the moment and project it forwards and backwards into eternity, we’re on shaky ground. |
Hoah, It’s my understanding from the post and common sense, that the roles, or lack thereof, are what define “androgynous”. Thus you cannot separate them from your argument. And your analogy doesn’t work. You are attempting to state that SSM is a different fruit, when one fruit -marriage- is the issue. Androgynous (role-ambiguous) marriages are “less stable”. Whether that translates to homosexual marriages could be looked into…… |
can we please think of an an analogy that does not involve fruit. thx. |
I am 63, my wife 62. We have a happy Marriage. We have no “gender roles”. |
‘”Man’ and ‘woman’ can mean anything. But people instantly know what a husband is, and what a wife is.” Jeff, are you serious? You don’t “instantly” know what a “man” or a “woman” is? Wow. I don’t know where to even start here. So I won’t. Good luck to you, man (or woman). |
Mark Brown #6:
Seriously, Jeff, don’t be such a misandrist. |
Jeff, your central point seems to be that gay marriage would “androgynize” marriage, removing traditional roles of husband and wife. As Mansfield points out, the content (and mere existence) of these roles is questionable. Indeed, even within the LDS community there is an entire spectrum of husband/wife dynamics to be considered. I guess I just don’t think you’re right. No doubt some will take you to be a dinosaur when it comes to male/female relationships, an impression that is cemented by your subsequent comments. I don’t think that’s a fair characterization, but I do think that your argument is a very dated one. |
Good point. Would you say the proclamation does this? It is important to distinguish between society and reality (according to one’s beleifs). |
Correction: As Mansfield points out, some people will consider the content (and mere existence) of these roles to be questionable. |
Thank you, Mark Brown and Bob (#12) for your comments. |
This argument makes very little sense. |
#11, LOL #12 Bob, Stuff? You stated that you have a “wife”. Your wife no doubt calls you her “husband”. You have admitted your roles in the first sentence you wrote. Therefore, you have certain identity you accept- husband, which is simultaneously a role. Do not confuse roles with tasks or duties. Roles can better be defined as behaviors and attitudes, none of which are mutually exclusive to one role-player or the other. #13 ECS, Please start. Hit and run offenses are lame. |
I still don’t quite follow how same-sex marriage will affect traditional marriage. Is it just that same-sex marriage reinforces the position that society no longer expects that every marriage will include a nurturing “wife” person and a providing “husband” person? I guess that’s possible, but I think that ship sailed a long time ago, without the help of same-sex marriage. As you point out, households where spouses share each responsibility equally, as well as households where the woman is the breadwinner and the man is a stay-at-home parent, already exist, and have existed since long before same-sex marriage was a mainstream discussion topic. So the state already officially recognizes marriages that do not include someone who plays a “husband” role and someone who plays a “wife” role. What’s so different about same-sex marriage? |
Woodboy,
This “new reality” is interesting to me. is it a reality at al, or just a passing phase? Is the new reality the one I am experiencing here and now at 4:17pm MDT, or is it more far-reaching than that, to include the cosmos and possibly even a God? Reality is such a subjective thing… |
@19 and some others who have brought it up– CA is doing away with Party A/B and going back to husband and wife. Next to the box for each name will be two checkboxes “husband” and “wife” and you pick one. About the post itself–wow. Just wow. |
nasamomdele (16), Exactly. Last weekend I heard a member of a general auxiliary presidency define nurturing as “leading, mentoring, and caring for” and she didn’t limit that activity to a woman’s children, but invited the women present to expand their circle of influence as far as they could. In my opinion, leading, mentoring, and caring for could just as easily fall into the Preside and Provide category as the Nurture category. |
#3 I try to help with child care and housework. I’m not saying we shouldn’t! But women are better at it. Haha. I wish you would have put this at the top of your post so I wouldn’t have bothered reading the rest. I’ll make sure and tell my wife that I shouldn’t make dinner tonight. After all, why should we eat an inferior meal when God made her a better cook? |
Also, nanamomdele, you’ve got to admit that ECS’s comment was pretty funny, no? The original post did state that man and woman can mean anything. Anybody who really thinks that is experiencing what the church would call gender confusion. Man/woman is a distinct, biological binary, with few exceptions. On the other hand, husband/wife has lots of gray area and many exceptions. It says so in the proclamation. |
Noah #7: I am not talking about homosexual marriages. I am talking about court-ordered androgynous marriages of whatever actual gender. Anna #21: You are right that these marriages have existed for a long time. That is why we can examine them empirically. What is new is that they are now the ONLY kinds of marriages recognized in jurisdictions with court-ordered same sex marriage. This is the first time androgynous marriages have been universal in their jurisdictions. Mark & others offended by my housework comment: I thought it was obvious that we were speaking in generalities here. I do most of the cooking in my household too. When I say they are better at it, I mean it is generally true that women put more importance on cleanliness and are better at doing the cleaning than men are. Women think we do a poor job just to get out of it, but (again, IN GENERAL) women are more concerned about the small details and this is the basis of me saying they are “better at it.” I know many will think I am a troglodyte for pointing out what is in fact self-evident. Rhetorical question: What is the gender distribution of house cleaners? Decorators? Nannies? I think y’all should just read Rhoades. Here is a sample:
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No, androgynous marriages are not the only kinds of marriage recognized in those jurisdictions, nor are they universal. ALL kinds of two-person marriages are recognized in those jurisdictions, including (1) provider male/nurturing female (traditional); (2) egalitarian male/female; (3) provider female/nurturing male; (4) provider male/nurturing male; (5) provider female/nurturing female; (6) egalitarian male/male; (7) egalitarian female/female. Those in category #1 are still just as recognized as ever; they just have to share “marriage” with a few more categories than they did before. |
Jeff, Is the Rhoades you refer to Stephen E. Rhoads, who wrote Taking Sex Differences seriously? If so, how embarrassing. A review can be found at Reason Online, at this url: http://www.reason.com/news/show/29227.html Here is the relevant paragraph from the review: Rhoads, who teaches public policy at the University of Virginia, marshals scientific data in support of supposedly traditional wisdom about the sexes. Unfortunately, he mixes genuinely interesting information and analysis with dubious generalizations, slim or anecdotal evidence, and sometimes downright junk science. And his conclusions can be distilled to such hoary precepts — e.g., girls who are too smart or too ambitious will have trouble landing a husband — that one feels like making a beeline for the nearest chapter of the National Organization for Women. With friends like these, human nature needs no enemies. Jeff, if this is the best we can do in an effort to support our understanding of what we choose to call traditional gender roles, we need to just give it up right now. |
Yeah, I gotta say Jeff, Steven Rhoades is not a particularly glimmering beacon. He IS, however, antifeminist and pro-traditional marriage (if traditional = June Cleaver). He’s a public policy/economist wonk with an agenda, not really a social scientist of repute to cite. |
Jeff, I agree with some commenters that the phrase “They’re better at it” is probably too broad and general for your purpose. I personally think women are better with the “nesting instinct” and with caring for children (generally speaking), and I would take Rhoades’ argument further: women generally care for children not only throughout humankind, but also throughout the natural world. To address the Sister Beck comment, I would make an exception with regards to housework: men are every bit as good at housework as women are, but women probably attach more value to having a clean house if/when they expect to be there most of every day. I would add that women, generally speaking, have a better sense of aesthetics than men, and cleanliness and order are much more aesthetically pleasing than messes and filth. This aesthetics argument is an alternative explanation to the idea that women do housework because they are better at it. |
I agree that the feminist movement, among other things, has legally androgenized marriage–going back to the days when the rule was repealed that only men (I mean “husbands” in a marriage) could hold property. Since then, all sorts of laws legally distinguishing between a husband’s and wife’s (and father’s and mother’s) roles have been invalidated or repealed. From that perspective, I am not sure how husband and wife roles could be further “androgenized” from a purely legal perspective. (And I think the legal androgenization is a good thing, for I believe it is healthy for husbands and wives to develop their own allocation of responsibilies without the compulsion of law.) |
Dean Ellsworth (31), You have stated exactly the problem with making broad generalizations. I’ll quote again from the review of Rhoad’s book: Perhaps more important, nearly all sex differences are characterized by vast overlap: Generally, a trait more typical of one sex will occur in the other sex 35 percent to 45 percent of the time. Of the two brain-difference studies most widely publicized in the 1990s, one found the “male” pattern of brain activity in 40 percent of women; the other found the “female” pattern in about a third of men. When categories are that general, they cease being useful and descriptive. I think Jeff has outlined the real problem here. We encounter all kinds of dificulty when we try to make broadly defined gender roles as distinct as male/female biological differences. |
Dude, I was just yanking your chain. |
DavidH (32),
I think that’s a great idea that dovetails with Mark (33)’s point- if our “innate characteristics” are so overlapping, then why not let marriage partners decide who is better at what, and proceed accordingly? |
Not to pile on, but as someone who believes in essential gender differences, I feel obligated to say that this argument doesn’t hold much water for me. To me the purpose of marriage is for male and female to bond. Aside from that purpose, it only has personal meaning to the people in that relationship–and then, you know, the slew of benefits that attend a legally privileged relationship, but again, these are benefits to the couple and not so much to society. I don’t think legalizing SSM will make heterosexual marriages more androgynous or weaker, but it may weaken the institution by making it primarily about love rather than a framework for joining two essentially opposite but complementary natures. This is theoretical, of course, since we can’t see the future, but it’s not outrageous to suggest that redefining marriage as it’s been understood for centuries (gender roles change, but sexes don’t) might have some unforeseen consequences. (Many laws have had unforeseen and unintended consequences.) I doubt that making marriage gender-neutral will affect individual marriages at all, but I imagine our society will eventually begin to wonder why it privileges couples above singles, and who knows how marriage will be valued then. Well, perhaps by then the government will be so firmly entrenched in our personal lives that we won’t wonder about anything anymore. I would say that the reason women tend to be better at cleaning is not just that they tend to be more micro-oriented than men, but they are indeed more home-oriented, so they feel more responsible for the upkeep of their homes than men do. Men can be perfectly meticulous about cleaning if they feel responsibility for being meticulous. Exhibit A: the military. |
#33 Mark Brown, Those statistics are interesting. There is indeed, overlap, but the majority of brain activity is mutually exclusive. That supports separation of roles on the basis of biological gender differences. I would submit that there are many such evidences- nursing comes to mind- that support such separation. I think DanE. is right that a marriage would probably survive easily in androgynous circumstances. That dynamic allows a lot more freedom in economic, relational, and spiritual ways. How a family dynamic would perform is an interesting question, when biological- and I add psychological- evidences of gender specification are taken into consideration. |
Fascinating to learn that we need understanding of such relationships that have stood for eons of time. Men and women cannot explain even to each other how they mutually benefit from the marriage arrangement. It seems rather presumptuous then to try to explain why homosexuals cannot receive the same benefits afforded to man and woman couples. Without trying to overanalyze the situation, I say that I accept the assertions made in the Proclamation. Suffice it to say, we are better off within the roles we believe are God-created and ordained. We may not know what eternal law governs the arrangement of traditional marriage, but most will agree readily that we can easily see benefits that can never be obtained in any other relationship. |
Jeff, I would also add that the viewpoints of other people must enter into our consideration of this issue. We need to figure a way that we can address this problem so that all the good people are satisfied, and believe that they are equally well served. Elder Hales counselled about this to some extent in his recent conference talk:
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Jeff, it seems in the original post you already conceded that couples can, in their own homes, decide to follow traditional husband/wife roles: “Well, no one is preventing me from still being a husband or a wife in my marriage. I can still use those terms, no matter what the state says!†Also, the court and state of California are reinstating the terms “husband” and “wife” on the official forms, as I already pointed out. There is no “court-ordered androgynous marriage” in California anymore. Can you point to any part of your argument that is still standing? |
nasamomdele, (37) …the majority of brain activity is mutually exclusive. That supports separation of roles on the basis of biological gender differences. I don’t follow your thinking here. If between 33% (on the low end) and 45% (on the high end) exhibit brain activity that we typically associate with the other sex, how can it be mutually exclusive? If we want to put male behavior and female behavior at opposite poles, almost everybody would fall somewhere along the spectrum in between. I would submit that there are many such evidences- nursing comes to mind- that support such separation. I question that. Aside from nursing, I don’t think there are any other good examples. Sometimes aggressive behavior and fighting gets described as typically male behavior, but studies of lesbian couples show that they report domestic violence at about the same rates as heterosexual couples. |
but the majority of brain activity is mutually exclusive. (#37) I assume you don’t mean what it sounds like you’re saying: women’s brains are incapable of performing most mental processes performed by men’s brains, and vice versa. Mark’s statistics merely indicate that there’s broad overlap but different tendencies between patterns of brain activity. If we’re using that data to justify the separation of roles on a biological basis, since there is so much overlap, wouldn’t it make more sense to explicitly invoke such “patterns” rather than relying on chromosomes? In other words, people tending toward brain pattern A should be required to wash dishes (the category comprising say 66% women and 34% men) where people with a tendency toward pattern B should be required to bring home bacon (40% women and 60% men). Such a system would then support gay marriage as long as these “patterns” matched up appropriately. (But of course none of this addresses the logical possibility that an individual might exhibit both patterns, whatever those are.) To extend marriage to same sex couples requires also abolishing the roles of husband and wife. It is not possible to do the one without the other. I’m still stuck at this part of the argument from the original post. If “man” and “woman” could mean anything when it comes to marital roles, why would gay marriage ineluctably annihilate those roles? Wouldn’t it theoretically be possible to support gay marriage on the condition that one party be assigned the role of “providing/presiding” and the other of “nurturing/toilet-cleaning”? (Or do you mean this would be difficult to enforce in our current legal environment in which, as you point out, various roles can already be assumed by either husband or wife, terms that no longer mean much in legal parlance beyond biological sex?) |
Mark (41),
That may be true, but it doesn’t say much about females in general, especially if females in heterosexual couples are reporting as victims of domestic violence more frequently than men. I can’t say “Richard Simmons cries when he watches the ending scene in The Notebook, so guys cry watching the ending of The Notebook just as often as women.” In reality, most guys laugh at that scene. |
(I’m speaking entirely theoretically here of course. Heaven help us when we start looking at people’s brain patterns to determine whether they’ll enjoy a life scrubbing toilets. That’s no better than looking to chromosomes.) |
Dan, my point is that agressive behavior which has always been described as a male trait simply doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. A better example which I should have used is the one which demonstrates that women are instigators of violence as frequently as men, even in straight relationships. |
Mark (45), I know- I was just trying to find a creative way to articulate an argument involving The Notebook. And Richard Simmons. Here is more of the relevant passage from The Proclamation: By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed. I read from that quote a lot of accounting for exceptions and “overlap.” I know a lot of people in situations where the mother has tremendously higher earning power than the father, and in our day, given our current prophetic emphasis on getting out of debt and being prepared for financial adversity, I think this principle of “sacred responsibilities” is presently very subservient to the principle of being equal partners, particularly in career options. |
Most of you people are WAY too loose in your ideas and words as to Culture. You too easily mix up “America Women”, with women in the past, or women in the world in general. |
/shocked horror/ What? The post-Industrial-Revolution Victorian model of the nuclear family that the Church rather belatedly embraced is not universal? It’s true, when we talk about “traditional marriage” it might be helpful to specify whose “tradition” we’re referring to. (Clearly not our own. *cough*polygamy*cough*.) |
#22: Sorry, i just meant new reality as in the reality of having to respect the new law as a government employee, nothing more. I should have used more specific language. |
The whole premise is a big misdirection. The question shouldn’t be how SSM affects heterosexual_marriage_, ie, your heterosexual marriage, but rather how will SSM affect _families_, specifically _your_ children. How is the societal approval of SSM going to affect children as they transition from that age where they are primarily interested in same-sex activities, to the age of coed group activities, then later to pairing off and dating? Will “he/she is a late bloomer” become “he/she is probably homosexual” ? How will societal approval of SSM affect those teens who can’t get a date with the opposite sex, and haven’t defined or learned their own sexual identity? Will homosexual sexual experimentation appear as a legitimate option to teens? If homosexuality isn’t a choice now, in 10 to 15 years it _will_ be a choice (or something that will be perhaps too easy to conclude) to those teens who grew up in a society that was totally approving of homosexual marriage. If you approve of same-sex marriage, then natually you approve of same-sex sexual activity. There is no way around that implication, and your future teenagers will pick up on it. How SSM affects current marriages is a smoke-screen. The real issue is how it will affect the next generation, starting with those future teens who spent their entire school career in an SSM-approving school system. Those SSM-approving parents who don’t teach their small children that pre-marital sex is wrong, and that homosexual sex is wrong, are going to discover, in about a decade, that many more of their teens are experimenting with homosexual pre-marital sex. |
I think we need to make an important distinction. There are the ideals, which we are supposed to teach and uphold. Then there are the exceptions to those ideals. There will always be individual adaptations of those ideals in regard to one’s particular circumstances. It is one thing to note that there are exceptions. It is another thing to use those exceptions to undermine the ideal, with the intention of demolishing it altogether. |
Bookslinger – then why are children raised by gay parents no more likely to be homosexual than children raised by straight parents? If an LDS family teaches their children that pre-marital sex is wrong, then where’s the problem? Hopefully we can get some more gay marriage happening so that both gay and straight kids can understand the need to save themselves for marriage. |
#50: Since when did teenagers start taking their values from our society, or school teachers? When did they start accepting only the ” legitimate options? |
“Those SSM-approving parents who don’t teach their small children that pre-marital sex is wrong, and that homosexual sex is wrong, are going to discover, in about a decade, that many more of their teens are experimenting with homosexual pre-marital sex.” Uh, this is a hypothesis that has been fairly well studied. It turns out that children raised by gay parents (which, presumably, is an extreme case of “SSM-approving” parents) are not significantly more likely than the general population to self-identify as gay, and the rate of homosexual experimentation has been relatively constant for decades, regardless of societal approval or persecution. |
Kiskilili: The post-Industrial-Revolution Victorian model of the nuclear family that the Church rather belatedly embraced is not universal? Just to show off a bit for the fun of it, it’s worth pointing out that, from a purely pedantic point of view, I don’t think you’re being quite fair to the Victorians. The marriage tradition, as viewed by 21st century American conservatives, strikes me as decidedly Edwardian. To extant that the Victorians ever really had their own marriage tradition, it mostly consisted of tidying up the Regency marriage traditions of the aristocracy and moving them into the burgeoning middle class. (June Cleaver, for example, would have been comfortable — if coarse — in Edwardian England, but she would have scandalized the Victorians.) That said, perhaps you forget all the traditional marriages in the ancient Americas that are described in the Book of Mormon? We know that they were traditional, because the women’s names were never mentioned. |
Jeff (51), It’s true that there are ideals and exceptions. But in our day and age, with the emergence of the man-child, these sentences fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. take on a much greater importance. Presently, the ideal is for women to actually prepare for the provider role, even if they ultimately are given the option of being out of the workforce. |
#54, I’ve studied the exact opposite effect- that children of gay parent are more likely to be gay. |
Since when did teenagers start taking their values from our society, or school teachers? When did they start accepting only the â€legitimate options? Are you serious? Young children and teens have always been influenced by both what is presented at school and by popular culture. They often use what they learn from TV shows, at school and from peers to counter their parents. “But Dad, everyone is ….. I’ll be the only one who…. ” If popular culture presents homosexuality as normalized, then in the eyes of those who go with the flow of popular culture, it will be a legitimate option, ie, nothing wrong with choosing it. (I’m using “legitimate” as in the eyes of the teens, not the parents or establishment.) Other countries are years ahead of us in SSM , and don’t have these problems. Really? I don’t know that. It takes 10 to 15 years to find out. What country of any significant population has had fully recognized SSM for at least 10 years? Do you really think letting Gays marry is going to raises or lower homosexualism in Mankind? Mostly, boys will still like girls and girls will be hot for boys..now those natural drives! I’m not saying it’s an all or nothing thing. But yes, it still would increase the rate of homosexuality. First sexual encounters, especially those at a young age, have a strong influence on someone’s sexual response and orientation. It’s not a guaranteed lock on how they are going to turn out, but from what I’ve read, it is a big influence, and in the aggregate, the effects can be seen statitically. (One of the big secrets of the gay community is how many were molested as children, or groomed/seduced as teens. But no one wants to consider any causes or influences other than “born that way.” Not all psychologists agree with the APA’s stand on homosexuality, many point to other causes or influencing factors of homosexuality.) A friend and I were talking about this as it relates to some of the gays we know. She observed that of the gay men she knows, some were molested as boys, some were groomed and seduced as teens, and were caught up in it, thinking that because of the way they reacted to their first experience, that they must have been gay. And she said that since the popular belief is that a homosexual is “born that way”, their conclusion was that they must be gay if they had a pleasurable physical response to the molestation or seduction. I don’t think that scenario is universal for all homosexuals, (and she didn’t present it as universal) but it constitutes a percentage. It logically follows that if homosexual experimentation increases, more people will conclude they are homosexual. 54. Kristine. Uh, this is a hypothesis that has been fairly well studied. It turns out that children raised by gay parents (which, presumably, is an extreme case of “SSM-approving†parents) are not significantly more likely than the general population to self-identify as gay, and the rate of homosexual experimentation has been relatively constant for decades, regardless of societal approval or persecution. Even in other countries, societal/governmental approval of SSM has only existed for a few years, it has not been included in any studies. It is a big enough paradigm shift such that previous studies in which that factor was not in play, will be less able to explain or analyze the new paradigm. Specifically, society-approved and government-approved SSM has not been around long enough for any children to experience their entire school career (from kindergarten through the age when they start sexual experimentation) immersed in a school system and in a popular culture that approves of SSM. And it may not be the first generation of children raised in an SSM-approving society in which the change in statistics becomes obvious. It may take until that generation grows up and becomes “the establishment” themselves (not just sexually active), before the effects are then seen on their children. What proponents of SSM are attempting is massive social engineering. And the debaters, on both sides, have not thought through how the changes will work across the next generation as children grow into sexually active teens and adults. Statistically, sexual activity among teens has almost constantly increased over the last 40 years. Once societal taboos against homosexuality are removed, do you honestly think that such sexual activity won’t include more homosexual experimentation? Won’t acceptance of SSM remove societal taboos? Did you not know that lesbianism started to gain a certain cachet among college students about 10 year ago? I expressed to my friend my worry about what’s going to happen in 10 years when today’s kindergarteners become sexually active teens and many will be tempted to experiment with homosexuality. She said it’s already here, and pointed out the hit song “I kissed a girl”. The catastrophic effects (both individual and societal) of SSM will not likely be seen in one to five years. The catastrophic effects won’t be seen in homosexual married couples or in contemporary heterosexual married couples. The effects will be seen in the next generation. The bitter fruit that will be harvested in the future by parents, who today are “tolerant and accepting” of SSM, will be them seeing some of their children either choose homosexuality, or mistakenly conclude they were born homosexual after they engage in experimentation. More bitter fruit will be that in addition to parents worrying about 21 year old men trying to seduce their 16 year old daughters, they will also have to worry about 21 year old men trying to seduce their 16 year old sons, and 21 year old women trying to seduce their 16 year old daughters. (And remember that age of consent in many states is only 16.) And if your teen is not socially popular, they are more at risk for being targeted by older predators. I hope I’m wrong. I hope we are moving towards a society of sweetness and light, where everyone is nice to each other, and there are no bad people doing bad things. But then I look around and see trends, and remember the trends over the last 35 years, and I see overall long-range trends. The trend is not good concerning this issue. |
Same sex marriage has had no effect on my marriage except to totally gross Bill out. |
Bookslinger, I think your error lies in thinking that there is no evidence because SSM hasn’t been approved in the U.S. for very long. We do know quite a lot about how being raised by gay parents influences children, though, since tens of thousands of kids are being raised by gay parents in california right now, and have been for the past two decades, without benefit of marriage. A generation of research demonstartes that adolescent girls raised by two women do report a slight increase in experimentation with lesbianism. On the other hand, boys with two mothers actually delay any sort of sexual activiy for a year or more than their peers in other homes. And by the time they reach adulthood, men and women raised by homosexual parents report sexual orientation that is indistinguishable from the population as a whole. There really is a lot of research on this. If we want to reject it, that’s fine, I guess. But if we are going to be as involved as we are on issues of gender and sexual orientation, it behooves us to know what we are talking about. |
Mark Brown, something I would be interested in, if such exists, is research looking at the tendency of such children to form and maintain marriages of their own, compared with their peers. Can you think of ever having heard of something like that? |
#58 spot on!! |
John – I think the only way the findings of such a study could be relevant is if the children were raised in homosexual marriages equivalent to heterosexual marriages, not just raised by gay parents. |
Dan #57: I don’t disagree at all. Does it sound like I do? The distinction is one of preparation, versus a rejection of the idea that husbands should (again, we are talking ideals) be breadwinners. The data show that husbands and wives are both happier and their relationship more stable when the husband is successful in his career. A woman will be much more torn between that and her children. As Caitlin Flanagan writes:
Or here she is talking about a study which claims boys do better without fathers and raised by a single mom:
These things are obvious and self-evident to some; others will pile up specious studies with handpicked samples over short time periods in an attempt to prove otherwise. Social science is hard to do and controversies wane rather than settle. Over time, consensus emerges. But it took 40 years for most people to admit that no-fault divorce is a catastrophe for children and also, very often, women. That should have been obvious long ago, and yet “none are so blind as those that will not see.” That a child ought to have a father and mother who are committed to each other and to him or her, should also be obvious. This fact is not rooted in some quaint, formerly recondite Edwardian/Victorian/whatever custom, nor in some fundamentalist fringe wanting to impose a theocracy. It is simple biology: it takes a man and a woman to make a baby. Unlike many other species, that baby is born completely helpless, which is what he remains for several years. So it is key to that baby’s survival that this man and woman who had sex together are and remain his mother and father for as long as possible. This isn’t a culturally-bound description; instead it describes the bare minumum needed for a civilization to maintain itself and transmit its values. Whether we talk about it from a religious framework, or simple evolution, it beggars reason to contend in the face of this that over millions of years, men would not be adapted to be fathers, women would not be adapted to be mothers, and that children would not be adapted to benefit from the long-term presence of both. |
Mark, You’re comparing apples and oranges, and perhaps your missing my main point about how the removal of society’s taboo against homosexuality (ie, SSM) creates a new paradigm, a whole new framework of how society imprints itself upon those who grow up in it. That research about gay parents raising children was _not_ done in the paradigm of an entire _society_ (school, government, peers, TV, music, political leaders, etc) that approves of SSM. That research you talk about is about gay parents raising children in a culture where the taboo against homosexuality still mostly exists, even in California. It’s only been a few months since SSM has existed in California, so it’s a whole new paradigm now. The clock starts now. The people to watch are those who are in kindergarten _now_, and those who come after. |
#65: “The clock starts now.” You are not even close. Greece was known for it’s homosexualism. Victorian boy schools in England were known for their homosexualism. |
just for a bit? c’mon, that’s not your stlye. ;) |
Thanks for the added nuance, DKL! :) I think we can definitely conclude, if nothing else, that ancient Book-of-Mormon wives enjoyed housework and would have felt unfulfilled without it. (Also, reading between the lines of the New Testament, I’m fairly certain Jesus recycled and wore a tie to synagogue, but perhaps that’s best left to another discussion . . . ) |
“it beggars reason to contend in the face of this that over millions of years, men would not be adapted to be fathers, women would not be adapted to be mothers, and that children would not be adapted to benefit from the long-term presence of both” I think given the hugely different costs men and women incur to have children, men are rather than being adapted to being fathers, adapted to fathering children without necessarily raising them. |
There have been some incredible things said on this thread, but for anybody to suggest that DKL engages in pedantic show-off-ery just for fun is beyond the pale. It simply beggars reason. |
In the heavens does DKL engage in pedantic show-off-ery just for fun? |
What? Who? |
Bookslinger, you have hit the nail on the head in every respect IMHO. This is probably the biggest paradigm shift that society has ever grappled with in the history of the world. I fear the flood gates are about to open. Sure, there might have been isolated societies throughout history that may have ‘embraced’ homosexuality, but never on this scale and magnitude. The consequences will be far reaching and will become more evident in the coming decades. |
#66, Greece was known for it’s homosexualism. Victorian boy schools in England were known for their homosexualism. Yes, yes, and yes. But you’re still missing (or refusing) my point about there now being a paradigm shift from tacit approval/tolerance of homosexuality-behind-closed-doors and sniggering about it, to the open and explicit societal approval. (And what that will do to future youth who are exposed to nothing but that paradigm from kindergarten on.) I don’t know about Greece, but the millieu of both Victorian England (long ago, but still qualifying as modern western society) and “My Secret Garden” (25 years ago), still contained a societal taboo against homosexuality. Part of the fascination with porn (such as MSG) is pushing the envelope of taboo. That is one of the reasons (that and the very nature of addictions and brain chemistry) why porn addicts need stronger and stronger “fixes” and spiral down into more and more degrading pornography. Once the taboo against homosexuality is removed, what’s the next taboo thing to push against for those who seek to push the envelope and be on the cutting edge? What’s the next thing to do, or at least tolerate/approve of, in order to be more-tolerant-than-thou and more-progressive-than-thou ? What’s the next thing for elitist progressives to point the finger about from their moral high horses in the name of tolerance and diversity? I’m not up on my Greek history. Did sexual immorality and hedonism play a role in their downfall? From what I’ve gathered, immorality (though not necessarily homosexuality) played a part in Rome’s downfall. I drive 3 teenage boys to school every morning. Trust me, no group is more Homophobic than teenage boys! The real peer pressure for you to fear concerning your kids are Drugs,Drinking, and hatred of Gays. Agreed about drugs, drinking, and hatred of “the other” (not just gays). But again, you’re missing (or refusing) my point. You’re looking at a static snap-shot in present time. Current teens are not my worry here. I’ve specifically pointed to future teens who spend their entire peer years (kindergarten through high school) exposed during all their formative years to the “gay is okay” “no taboo here” mentality coming at them from all of society/culture. I worry about what’s going to happen when your sons drive their sons to school in 20 years. |
#74: Everything you said, was said about many things: Ending Prohibition, the ‘pill’, Rock and Roll music, Pot, uncontested divorce, etc. “WHAT NEXT??!!” |
If I understand correctly the church has “no stance” on ‘civil unions’. If two gays unite what difference does it have on me if they call it civil union vs. marriage? Will my heterosexual marriage be affected one way but not the other? Is this just semantics? |
Everything you said, was said about many things: Ending Prohibition, the ‘pill’, Rock and Roll music, Pot, uncontested divorce, etc. “WHAT NEXT??!!†Some of those have had good and bad to them. Example: contraception has legitimate use by couples to control their fertility (though some others disagree, and think all use is bad.) I like several types of rock music, but look at how the derivatives have pushed the envelope: punk rock, heavy metal, scream music, etc. Elvis gyrating his hips back in the 50′s is pretty tame in comparison now. But all of what you mention did have unintended negative consequences or lead to further pushing of the envelope. So thanks for pointing out things which illustrate my theme. The pill (1969) –> abortion (1972). The pill + abortion –> sexual revolution, increase in promiscuity, increase in STDs, delaying of marriage. Sexual revolution –> increase in children raised without fathers present, increase in infidelity/adultery, increase in broken families, pornography. Pornography –> porn addictions, sexual desensitization, objectification of women, and a lot more. Pot –> increase in recreational use of harder drugs, increase in addictions, new illicit drugs (meth, designer drugs), increase in organized crime, international drug cartels, drug wars, war on drugs, 70% of all incarcerated felons in prison/jail on drug charges, Uncontested divorce –> child abandonment. Greece and Rome were not failures..they just ran out of gas. Oh puh-leeze. SSM, in the history of things, doesn’t come close to a “paradigm shiftâ€â€¦.try TV or the auto. It won’t be proven until about 15 more years, plus a few more years for studies to be done. Additionally, I’m willing to put some faith in the ancient prophets and modern prophets on this issue. The call to political action by the Brethren on this issue is probably the biggest political thing the church has gotten involved in since the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA), about 35 years ago. That alone gives us clues as to how big and important this issue is. Legalization of SSM is the big transition from tolerance to acceptance/approval of homosexuality by society. |
#77: “Legalization of SSM is the big transition from tolerance to acceptance/approval of homosexuality by society.” |
I keep reading these SSM posts hoping to find good solid reasons why SSM is the horrible bogeyman that it has been made out to be. I’m consistently disappointed. |
It is still way too soon to show empirically what effect same sex marriage is having on heterosexual marriages and children in those places where it is now legal. You must not have seen the video in regards to the Parker family in Mass. where same sex marriage is legal. It has affected this tradition family. The kindergartner child was given a book by his school that introduces same sex marriage. The parents asked the school to give them parental notification before such materials are handed out as said materials go against the religion the family practices. The school said they were not required to give parental notification because same sex marriage is legal in their state. The school would not agree to give the parents notification. That’s all they were asking for. It went as far as the father being arrested when he demanded they accommodate him. So, there IS evidence to show the effect same sex marriage is having on heterosexual marriages and children in those places where it is now legal. |
Read Judith Rich Harris. Her observations regarding socialization of children primarily coming from peers are very insightful, as well as foundational in social psychology. |
In that vein, I won’t even try to put it better than Bookslinger has. |
#81,82: Please read again my comments. I too believe peers socialize peers. |
nasamomdele, How then do you reconcile your view that children are infuenced primarily by the surrounding culture with the view promoted by the church that the home is most important? |
#84 MB, That’s a good question. The easy answer is that I don’t think those things are mutually exclusive. more specifically, parents are in position to manipulate the environment that their children will be socialized. That includes the greatest socializer- schools. But also important is the activities you allow your children to engage in- organized or not, and how hands-on parents are in the social interactions of their children (i.e. when dropping a child off, going and engaging the other parents). So as a member of the Church, and especially in times like these of rampant pornography, underage drug/alcohol/tobacco use etc., I think the fact that peers affect youth so much can be an opportunity to engage the peers, their parents, but most of all the environments in which children are raised. Opportunity is to mild a word- responsibility is more appropriate. If anything, such research ought to raise awareness for the need for community advocacy and finding places and people that have similar general values. It’s an opportunity more than anything. |
#84, I’m realizing that I didn’t answer the question very well. I blame the debates. Basically, the idea is that parents can manipulate the environment in which children are socialized by either bringing peers into their home, under their influence, or finding ways to extend the influence of the home into other aspects of a child’s life i.e., enroll them in a charter school, have them do scouting, and so forth. While the home’s physical boundaries are useful, so are it’s moral boundaries when they find alignment with outside environments. |
I think I agree with you to some extent, at least the part about extending the home’s moral boundaries. There are some studies done by the church and also some by guys at BYU which suggest that as long as a solid foundation is created by the parents, young people can thrive in a variety of environments and withstand the influences around them. |
Mark Brown asked nasamomdele: “How then do you reconcile your view that children are infuenced primarily by the surrounding culture with the view promoted by the church that the home is most important?” When parents abdicate their opportunity/responsibility to lead/teach/influence their children, then the surrounding culture (which includes pop culture, school curriculum, school teachers, peers, TV, movies, music, politicians, etc) has the biggest influence in the lives of said children. I understand the church’s teaching as this: when parents exercise righteous leadership/training/influence over their children, then they can counteract the negative influences that exist outside the home. IE, what’s taught in the home trumps what’s taught from outside, but if nothing is taught in the home, then the outside influences win out. My main concern on this issue is not about the effect of SSM on active/faithful LDS families. My main concern on this issue is due to my belief that the majority of parents (of minors) in the United States abdicate their parental teaching responsibilities, and leave it all up to schools and other influences outside the home. The outside forces will win by default. |
That’s an excellent point, Bookslinger. |
“When parents abdicate their opportunity/responsibility to lead/teach/influence their children, then the surrounding culture (which includes pop culture, school curriculum, school teachers, peers, TV, movies, music, politicians, etc) has the biggest influence in the lives of said children.” This is quite true. I was a teacher in a headstart program and I can’t tell you how many times a parent wanted me to act as parent for them. Sad. I do have some great parents in that program, lest anyone think I am stereotyping. |
#88, Exactly. |
#88:”The majority of parents (of minors) in the United States abdicate their parental teaching responsibilities, and leave it all up to schools and other influences outside the home…”. |
#92: Bob, you’ll notice in my list of important things in parents, I named the presence of both a father and a mother, stability, and mutual commitment. I did not mention love, and that is not an oversight. I know plenty of parents who love their children. That doesn’t make them good parents, or good for their children. I used to work with children coming into the foster care system. I well remember the tears of a mother when her daughter was taken away from her for the third time. She sobbed and protested that she loved her daughter. I did not doubt it. It was also obvious that her daughter loved her and didn’t want to be parted from her. Her daughter had fetal alcohol syndrome and was continuing to suffer sexual and physical abuse from the men this woman would allow into her life, and she also suffered neglect when her mother went on her all-to-frequent benders. This mother truly loved her child. She may even have been doing the best she was capable of. But that love, alone, could not provide her daughter with what she needed. Despite her love and best efforts, she was still a horrible mother. This was a selfish and poisoned kind of love, which insisted on continuing to possess her offspring, rather than recognize the self-sacrificing love that is shown in realizing that another is more capable of providing her daughter with what she needed and deserved. This, again, is where our popular culture does a huge disservice. It says romantic love is a powerful feeling that conquers all, and that everything else must give way before it, even marriage covenants and the needs of children. If a marriage ceremony were simply a commemoration of love, then there would be no reason to deny it to anyone who was in love. But I think it is far more than that. It should be a mutual, lifetime commitment to each other, whose purpose and end is to bring other children into this secure and committed environment. And if that is what we want marriage to be as a society, then it should be limited to those who are able to provide children with what they need and deserve. That is: a mother and a father who are committed to the child and to each other. |
Does anybody know if there’ve been same sex divorces in states where SSM is legal? I also wonder about the statistics regarding homosexual couples who actually want to be married vs. the number of homosexuals. Am I making sense? Say, in a given population of heterosexual adults, maybe 5000; almost all will want to be married, whether or not they’re strictly monogamous or faithful. But in a given population of homosexual adults, maybe 5000, I’d guess most wouldn’t even want to make a marital commitment, let alone be strictly monogamous or faithful. Maybe more Lesbians would than gay males, but it’s been my observation that the homosexual lifestyle is based on infidelity and the thrill of the chase and conquer of new sexual partners. The situations I’ve observed personally are, I feel, very disrespectful in that sense, although those gay friends of mine involved seemed much less outraged than I at their partner’s promiscuity. Surely if marriage is legalized, there has to be some sort of procedure to end those unions and split the sheets, as it were. I’d like to know if any divorces have occurred and I’d like to ask each and every homosexual person if they really want to be married. I think those 25 year companionships are in the vast minority. So maybe we should just ignore it and see what actually happens. I’m thinking self-destruct, as far as commitment goes. Because I don’t think most gay people even want commitment. I’ve probably been incredibly redundant and I’m opposed to gay marriage, but not virulently so. Mostly I’m too wrapped up in myself and my own problems to make this a major issue. |
#92: Jeff, why did you do that to my comment? I was commenting on #88 that said most parents abdicate their responsibilities as parents, and I said that was not so. I did not say “Love is all you need”. I do believe love is the #1 tool, and not something left off a list because of it’s low priority. Note: I said love and do your best. |
#95 Bob,
Define “love”. |
#96: The same way Jesus did ..As the Greatest Commandment. (Google it) |
It saddens me that people would be insulted by what was meant to be a compliment about women’s divine gifts of nurturing and homemaking. It is those kinds of attitudes that really demean the value of a woman’s contribution in a home. I know that my God-given gifts to nurture my children and make our home an orderly and comfortable place are of inestimable worth to my husband and children. They know the value of what I do because they contribute heavily in the effort. But when they cannot contribute because of school or work, I happily step in and take over because, yes, I am better at it. And my entire family is blessed by my talents. Why should the recognition of this be offensive? |
#97, I feel like I’m going on a treasure hunt… I’m interested in how you define love. There are so many abstract definitions and conceptions, yours being one of the more abstract. In the way you speak of love, it must infer some specific behaviors and attitudes. I would be interested in the definition of those for the sake of discussion. |
#99: The thing is NOBODY…can define love. It is an abstract. What you may see as loving acts, I don’t. In #86, you use “manipulate”, as a loving act (?), I don’t. I always declared to my kids what I felt was the right thing to do, but they picked. They always knew I ‘had their back’. |
Bob, from your assertion that most parents don’t abdicate their duty to teach various things to children in the home, I assume you are an active LDS person living in the Mormon corridor. Is that so? Have you ever lived in a blue collar middle-class neighborhood outside of the mormon corridor? I have. Have you ever lived in an inner-city ghetto? I have. Where I have lived during my life, very very few families actually have any formal lessons to teach their children. If anything gets transfered, it is usually by osmosis of attitudes, not formal teaching. My observation is that outside (outside the home) influences most often trump whatever is transfered by osmosis from the parents. Peer influence also usually trumps osmosis from the parents. Peer influence is probably the greatest of the external influences. In my opinion, at least weekly, and almost daily, formal sit-down lessons are needed to counteract the sum-total of the outside influences now-adays. I would also suppose you to be in your teens or 20′s, based on your writing and comprehension skills. I believe your attitudes will likely change over the years, as you see your (or others’) children grow up, and how they react to the various influences in their lives. If you have lived in the mormon corridor all your life, that explains some of your beliefs about “most” families, and you are in a for a rude awakening if/when you move to an area where LDS, or any active church-goers, are in the minority. Please remember what you’ve read here when your experience broadens and you discover that our society really has sunk farther than you had imagined. And according to the scriptures, it’s going to get worse. |
Bob,
That’s mildly manipulative, no? Telling them the way you would do it? And you didn’t move your family into the ‘hood- hopefully we all manipulate the environments our kids are in. My point is that its the right thing to do. |
#101: Wrong on every count. |
#102: Telling your child “This is the way I would do it”, is not the same as saying “this is the way YOU WILL do it.” My kids were always in public schools where only about half the students were white. |
Bob, Wow, I had you totally wrong. I had you pegged as a teen or 20-something. My apologies. If you would read a little more charitably, you’d see that we agree that parents can or could have the most influence over their children. My point, which I can’t tell if you’re merely disagreeing with or just ignoring, is that many parents in the US abdicate the opportunity to have that influence. In other words, they don’t play that card, and the outside influences win by default. I believe said abdication occurs all over, in the Mormon corridor and outside of it. Are you saying that even when parents make absolutely no attempt at being an influence in their children’s lives, that such parents still have more effect than outside influences? |
#105: Maybe where we talk passed each other,is you seem to be talking about a parent, and I am talking about all or most parents(?) But it is still a hard question. Even if we limit the “test Group” to Presidents of the United States, we see strong men come from weak and strong parenting. |
Look how smart I am with my words! I will crush your every opinion and rebuttal with a killing stroke from my keyboard! Have an opinion that is different than mine? Fool! I will dazzle you with vocabulary and case studies to show you just how wrong wrong wrong you are! HA HA HA! |
you are all ‘refusing my point’, which is that I am constantly right about everything all the time. *sigh*…It does get a little tiring, but there must always be a repository for all wisdom and light in the universe, and that is me. Sitting at my computer, telling you how to think and vote. Thank your lucky stars I am here to steer you clear of apostasy. |
Here are a few ideas for last minute pro-Prop 8 ads: Given that as the law currently stands, gays can be married, it shouldn’t be too long before we start to see some old television standbys modified to include gay couples. “The Dating Game” and “The Newlywed Game” would probably include a certain number of gay matchups or married couples per week, as would other dating/relationship shows if they were brought back and remade. “Wheel of Fortune” would have the occasional “gay couples” week. Surely the demand for a cable “all gay, all the time” channel exists; imagine the “Lifetime” channel, but oriented to gays and lesbians. The power of the “ick factor” that could be brought into play here shouldn’t be ignored. I mean, they’re certainly not implausible ideas and wouldn’t have to be done in a cartoonish, condescending way, like some other anti-whatever or whoever campaign ads I’ve heard on the radio or have seen on TV. But it could just be put out there so as to creep everyone out. I think it has the potential to put the Yes on 8 crowd over the top. Karl Rove would probably go for it. |
Surely the demand for a cable “all gay, all the time†channel exists; imagine the “Lifetime†channel, but oriented to gays and lesbians. This channel already exists… It’s called LOGOS and it’s available on DirecTV. I was looking for a show about the church and found one on LOGOS about an LDS missionary though the premise was something other than what I was hoping for. Just use your imagination and I won’t have to go into it! |
I am further struck dumb by the illogical arguments presented by completely logical people who are intent on arguing illogical points. Some of the most intelligent and interesting people I know are devout enough to shame catholic saints, but even they will not spiel the complete nonsense that comprises this article. Men and women can’t be equal in work with children in the house? With all the subtle jabs at reasons why homosexuality is indeed ruining marriage, oh so keenly disguised by the use of the phrase “androgynous” I would have reason enough to make these points on logic. Ladies and gentlemen, I am a bisexual male, who is currently in a relationship with a female. I promise you as I would promise her. If the future saw us in guardianship of a child, there would be no difference in the amount of care between us. I also happen to be pretty DARN good at housework. There are periods of time I RUN my house on my own. The whole basis of this argument is that gender roles keep society functioning cleanly and smoothly, no? If it’s so smooth, why was this article necessary? I feel as if I’ve sullied my own mind by reading this article, but I found solace in the comments, and I thank all below me for provocative reading. |
Wow. I am begging you to cease spreading false doctrine. The teachings you have preached “women are better” at housekeeping, etc., are simply contrary to the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Might I remind you of a man you might have heard about–Jesus. When Mary was “learning at his feet” (which, in Hebraic traditions, means to be the student or disciple of a teacher), Martha entered the room and complained that Mary was not helping her in the kitchen where she belonged. Jesus chided Martha and reminded her that we all have our ways of serving him. Thus “roles” are *not* fixed as roles–an idea to which you so dearly seem to be clinging. Roles are a set of attitudes and traditions (as you yourself pointed out) that simple-minded folks cling to when they don’t have the imagination or strength to pursue life outside of “roles.” So, sure, for weak-minded people, roles are great. They give people something constant and predictable to cling to, and they help these people not fall into lives of complete degeneracy or nihilism. For those of us who do not need comfort and predictability, for those of us who can imagine our own lives as something greater than a set of traditions of men, a set of attitudes, etc., we can imagine serving the Savior in other and meaningful ways–ways outside of rote repetitions of the traditions of men. We can imagine ourselves in Mary’s place. By the way, I’ll hold my sex life up to any “traditional” marriage (that’s right, I come from one of those “androgynous marriages at which you sneer). So far I’ve found few “traditionalists” who are willing to compare notes, however. |
I was tempted just to flame you as being simple-minded and absurd for quoting Steven Rhodes’s mediocre work. Instead, I think it’s better to just point out to you that you will lose this debate in the long run. The future of this country, society, and even Mormonism belongs to people like me–those who reject notions that women are genetically disposed to doing dishes and that the “traditional” roles lead to greater happiness in the long run. I don’t care to missionary you, and your amazingly trite and shallow thoughts here are far from converting me, I just thought I’d point out that your ilk–just as royalty, the Nazis, and Jim Crow laws were before–will eventually be purged from society. The Christ I know and love, as well as the scriptures I know and read, testify that your thoughts are wrong-headed. Whether you accept that fact or not is irrelevant to me. Thank you for not using the word Christ in your post; he truly has nothing to do with your post and I appreciate you not using his name in vain (or associating it with your thoughts here). |
There are a lot of quasi-spiritual theories out now that people are using to explain how the universe works and none of them include Jesus Christ. I think many of them are so close to the truth that they will fool a great many people. God is love, that is true, and we are (as I harp on again and again) called on to behave in a Christ-like manner toward all. For me, the truth is that God created the world, and sent His son, and ordained prophets to speak for him. Teachings and beliefs that lead us away from faith in these basic precepts are contrary to God’s will. All that high minded rigamarole aside, I don’t think it’s as big deal as we think and God is truly in His heaven and all will be sorted out eventually. If my neighbor chooses to marry a girl (she being a girl) it’s not going to make much difference to my marriage. But it might make the kid across the street a little confused. And it might influence his choices later, all the rhetoric about homosexuality being a matter of choice be damned. I’m very confused about homosexuality and its origins and its destination, but I have to bring it all back to that basic belief in God, the gospel and in the atonement of Jesus Christ, who asks us to love all men. |
Same sex marriage is a detriment to child rearing . Every child when adopted should have a father and a mother that will provide adequate role modeling and child development. |
I Enjoyed this read because, even though it is several years later since it was written, it is still one of the few arguments that I have read that does not try and deny same sex marriage simply on a moral basis. I however do not agree with its assumptions to say that gender roles are essential to a marriage is and odd argument. Essentially it has been stated that there is a need for a man to be called a husband and a woman to be called a wife for a marriage to reach its full potential and by creating the availability of marriage to people of the same sex it puts an end to the the Idea of husband and wife. Instead referring to party A and party B. You are right it does in this way redefine marriage. I cannot speak to the proposed study for i have not read it. I however feel that it puts to much importance on roles and not enough on the importance of commitment in marriage. It seems that society forces you to play a part in a play because the argument is that this is what allows society to function. Order and control being its sole focus. In some societies you are born into roles, you do not earn them but they are pronounced upon you. American is all about being able to leave the role given you and take on the one you desire. thus the son of a baker can be a car salesman. Roles do not make a marriage but the love and commitment shared by people who want to make a life together. That is what marriage means to me, not that I have taken on a role but that I have shown someone that I love that I am willing to commit myself to them and them alone. Your marriage is not defined by your children, by who cleans what or who earns money, but what you are willing to do for each other. |