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Doesn’t the Sonia Johnson experience shed some light on how this may or may not work? Dissent is one thing — and the Church has already given members a pass on disagreeing on Prop 8. But when a member starts to harm the Church through his/her actions — advocating against the Church on its core mission … shouldn’t that invite discipline, or at least a discussion? |
And you’re making way too much of one interview with one man in a public newspaper (i.e., it’s not a formal statement by the church, carefully worked over for the nuances of its wording, and promulgated to the world or church at large). On the one hand, you want it to be just such a heavy, portent-laden statement; on the other hand, you don’t want him to say anything at all, ’cause it “silences” others. What queuno said. |
queuno, I’m not sure what you mean by “harm the Church.” I think I made my own position clear: there is a distinction between well reasoned disagreement with the arguments put forth by our leaders and being critical of the leaders themselves. I think that in failing to make such a distinction in this interview the message that people get from Elder Whitney is to disagree silently because any opposition could subject you to local discipline. I think that the Church should make clear what sort of political action is grounds for discipline and what is not. I also think that members (and non-members) should show respect for one another and attack arguments rather than people. |
Ardis, In a sense you are correct. I would prefer silence to an ambiguous statement, but a carefully worded, meaningful statement would be most welcome. I see this statement as unfortunate because it can easily be interpreted to mean that any public opposition to a political position taken by the Church puts one’s membership in peril. |
I.e. – if I go and say, “I think the Church is wrong on Prop 8″, no one is going to say boo to me at Church about my membership. If I start saying, “I think the Church is wrong, and here’s how you fight against the leadership, and by the way, here are the addresses and phone numbers of the missionaries so that you can go to their houses and protest”, then I’ve crossed a line. |
Ardis, I’ll add that I take my membership in the Church very seriously and that I think that statement about what could put one’s membership in peril should be taken seriously, especially when they are made by a General Authority. |
What Queno said. There is a big difference between advocating for a political position and advocating directly against the church. One is just politics the other is apostacy. AKA: Barb Young: Politics Andrew Callahan: Apostacy |
You seem to be concerned that an overzealous local leadership would elevate dissent to a level that would signal apostasy and thus move to excommunicate. I have enough faith in local leadership to be able to discern between dissent and actively working against the Church. Elder Whitney, perhaps understandably, isn’t going to go to the lengths to explicitly detail it, because it is ultimately a local issue. |
Ardis, this wasn’t an interview with Joe Sorenson from Heber in the local Penny Saver. This is a General Authority talking to the Deseret News. While you’re right that this is not another Proclamation to the World, I think we should consider affording it a little more weight than you describe. What arJ seems to be getting at is the perceived tension between the Church’s messages on political neutrality/legitimate disagreement on issues and the Church’s stance regarding SSM amendments. We have mixed messages on some level because we have some leaders saying that we’re of course free to disagree with the Prop 8s of the world, while other leaders indicate that if we disagree it could open us up to sanction by local leaders. I agree with you and queuno that there are degrees of disagreement and methods that are more sure to draw censure than others. But the tension is there regardless – let’s not pretend there isn’t any. |
queuno, Using membership rolls (or a list of missionary addresses) for political purposes is always wrong. What is the distinction between “here’s how you fight against the leadership” and “here’s my analysis of the arguments leaders are making and why I think they are bad arguments”? Are both off limits? |
I’m not sure the church is as “progressive” on domestic partnerships as you say. First, note the wording from Elder Wickman in the interview posted on the church newsroom website:
Also, there is the leaked 1997 memo which has recently appeared on Daily Kos website, which looks to me like it’s probably genuine. It suggests that any accommodation the church makes to domestic partnership arrangements may be based on tactics rather than principles. Excerpt:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/3/15369/3779/711/651188 Also, what is the status of domestic partnerships in Utah? If the church was really “progressive” on this issue, you might expect it to be reflected in Utah politics. |
I think another important distinction here is that the Church isn’t going to discipline people because they publicly express doubt over something a leader says. I.e. – you’ve stated that you don’t follow Whitney’s logic. That’s fine. Heck, I don’t understand a lot of things Nibley or BY say. :) But where it draws the line is if you were to publish a post advocating not joining the Church because, in your opinion, the Church is wrong because you can’t follow the logic. Sonia Johnson would been fine if she’d just disagreed with the Church on the ERA. Margaret Toscano would have been fine if she’d just disagreed with the Church on (pick your subject). Their actions related to their dissent were the tipping point. |
Great post ARJ, thanks for link to the article and for raising this discussion. My family recently moved from CA, and as someone who feels very uneasy about the Church’s involvement in Prop 8, I wondered how my unease would have impacted my calling/responsibilities if we would have stayed (I was a RS Pres. in a student ward). I’m very grateful I didn’t have to confront this issue. I also think that Elder Clayton’s ambiguity over the Church’s treatment on those who publicly opposed Prop 8, just adds more fuel to the fire of those not of our faith in the community who were unhappy with the Church’s involvement in Prop 8. Thanks again ARJ. |
What do you think about the disconnect of this? Elder Clayton, as quoted in a Salt Lake Tribune article on October 26: “Latter-day Saints are free to disagree with their church on the issue without facing any sanction, said L. Whitney Clayton of the LDS Quorum of the Seventy. “We love them and bear them no ill will.” |
arj – I think you’re trying to delineate an exact line and I think that’s a little hard to do. But I can imagine that “attacking the Church” might consist of: - Telling investigators not to join the Church because of Prop 8 There are just two examples. If you want to say, “here’s where I have an issue with the counsel or teaching”, is one thing. To say, “I’m right, they’re wrong” and it approaches a level where local leadership believes you are hurting the Church, is another. Maybe, if you’re concerned, you might ask your stake president to better delineate his interpretation of the line. After all, it’s he would have to make a final ruling… I feel like Ed Meese, here… |
ed johnson, I had a very solid source roughly 10 years ago that said the position of the 12 was that civil unions were acceptable. I have recently reconfirmed this information. No, I’m not going to say who it is. |
bbell’s bringing up Barbara Young is interesting. So far as I know, she simply took a “No on 8″ stance. She didn’t say, “My Church is wrong for supporting 8″. (I think there are a lot of commenters and Bloggernacle bloggers in the last few weeks who have come dangerously close, but that’s just me. And now everyone understands why I generally use a pseudonym on the ‘nacle.) |
queuno, I think that we’re in rough agreement. Any discussion should be limited to the issue at hand and shouldn’t drag the truth of the Church into it or criticism of the leadership in a general sense. Such things can always subject a member to discipline if done loudly enough. |
Not so. The Church’s stance in 2004:
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sorry–link. |
That’s interesting, ARJ…if the 12 are ok with civil unions, what do you make of the statement from Elder Wickman? |
Or, That’s a great question. I think two things have always been clear: 1. You can vote however you want. What isn’t clear is where the line is placed in the middle. Can members state their political views publicly in a way that is not questioning of the truth of the Church and not be subject to discipline? |
In answer to the post title: Fact is, some will, and some already are. That’s about as much as I’m prepared to say for now… |
Nate W., I’m not claiming that being unopposed to civil unions was the public position of the Church. That has only happened recently. I’m saying that it was the private position. I know that isn’t a satisfying answer. |
This is where the church’s approach to lay leadership coupled with minimal training makes things interesting. It is very possible that an action that nobody cares about in one ward would get you thrown out of the neighboring one. So much depends on the temperament of you bishop and your relationship with him. I think Elder Clayton’s ambiguous statement is unfortunate, but that is probably the best we can do. The church issued very clear, written guidelines for member involvement in the prop 8 effort, and those guidelines were repeatedly violated, e.g. missionaries drafted to pass out flyers, worship services turned over to campaign organizing, etc. Some bishops will read his statement as being given free rein to separate the wheat from the chaff, and Elder Clayton is smart enough to know that. |
This kind of reminds me of Thomas Murphy. It was one thing for him to present the research and the evidence. It’s an *entirely* different thing to make the (il)logical leap that the Book of Mormon wasn’t true and thus the Church wasn’t true, based on his research. (Murphy is an entirely different situation, though. And I don’t know if he was ever excommunicated.) |
I don’t know of anyone being exed by the Church as a result of Prop 8, but there are numerous comments around the Bloggernacle where people are seriously considering exing themselves over the actions taken by the Church in the matter. |
Elder Clayton’s comment seems to come from a position of being careful not to dictate to SPs and Bishops how they should handle discipline issues. One of the biggest criticisms of the Fielding, Toscano, et al. disciplinary proceedings was the impression (most likely true) that they were being directed out of SLC. The new CHI is very clear that church discipline is a local issue, and with Prop 8 both controversial and a “California” issue, Elder Whitney wanted everyone to be sure that any discipline issues are a local matter, not a Church HQ matter. |
A random john said “Using membership rolls (or a list of missionary addresses) for political purposes is always wrong.” Apparently the church doesn’t see it this way, ward lists were used in California and Arizona to communicate ward and stake activities regarding Props 8 and 102, I live in AZ and recieved phone calls and emails. |
JDH, that is an excellent point. It would be unfair if senior leaders were criticized when they do get involved (for getting involved) and also when they don’t (for giving local leaders too much discretion). But clearly there are limits on the discretion local leaders are allowed to exercise: a local leader can’t excommunicate someone for being a Democrat or voting for a Democratic candidate, regardless of how strongly or how spiritually correct that leader feels that action to be. So Elder Clayton was quoted in the media only ten days ago saying no member of the Church would be subject to “sanctions” for disagreeing with the LDS position on Prop 8. That appeared to be a credible public statement by an LDS GA setting limits on the discretion local leaders would be allowed to exercise. Now Elder Clayton is saying that any local leader is free to apply sanctions if they feel it appropriate. This is simply incoherent. For future statements to retain credibility, not to mention simple fairness, this needs to be publicly corrected or explained. |
arJ: You’re right–it isn’t. “The Church” has no private opinions–some of the brethren may have believed that, but it is impossible for an organization to hold private opinions. The position of the Church can only be evaluated by what an agent says when speaking as an agent. What’s more, you haven’t provided any evidence. If you have internal memos or something, share them. Otherwise, I will believe that something is the position of the church when someone is speaking on the record as a representative of the Church. And yes, that includes one of the brethren answering questions from a reporter about church-related matters if he doesn’t state that it’s only his opinion. |
Dave, I agree it could have been better said. However, the Clayton’s statement does not give local leaders carte blanche to beginning winnowing the rolls. They must still apply the standards for church discipline, and the system also has an nominal appeals system built in in case those standards are not met. I suspect the excom issue would be over advocacy against church leaders or public apostasy, rather than for supporting No on 8. No SP could ever justify disciplining a member for merely supporting the “opposition” when SLC specifically said that would be OK. |
That should be “begin winnowing.” |
Exploring the concept of “There is a big difference between advocating for a political position and advocating directly against the church.” What do you call a person you deeply advocates a course of action, but then doesn’t himself participate? Are any of the Brethren listed on the official contributors list? |
Sorry for the multiple posts. Dave, I don’t see Elder Clayton’s first statement inconsistent in anyway with his second statement. In essence he says: a) no discipline for supporting or publicly opposing the Church’s Prop 8 position, but b) application of any disciplinary standards (with the inference that this includes a), above and is in harmony with the CHI) is a local matter. |
“Can members state their political views publicly in a way that is not questioning of the truth of the Church and not be subject to discipline?” Sounds like it depends where they live. Prop 8 played out differently in the central valley wards than the bay area wards so I imagine they will continue to play out differently in the aftermath. That is supported by the concerning Clayton quote in your original post, notwithstanding the church newsroom piece yesterday which moved for acceptance of members on both sides. |
I hate that this is self-serving, but I posted on the question of Prop 8 and religious liberty on my blog, at http://noiseinmyhead.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/why-supporting-prop-8-didnt-necessarily-make-me-a-bigot/ |
Queuno and Ardis, You defend Elder Clayton’s statement because you assume that there is a line of reasonable dissent people that would be acceptable and discipline would be for people crossing that line of respect. Yet, Elder Clayton does not allow for this line. I spoke out on Prop 8 in a way that was completely respectful toward the church, acknowledged the church’s right to speak out on the issue, not critical of the church or the motives of the leaders, and not in disagreement with any doctrine (ie Proclamation on the Family) and I was subject to my bishop’s “discernment” that as long as my opinions were public, I was not temple recommend worthy. He agreed that I was respectful, but in his opinion, any dissent on Prop 8 was the same as dissent on doctrine. When my opinion became private, I was still temple worthy, so there is no other sin or behavior he was getting at. I believe removing a temple recommend to an otherwise worthy member to be sanction or discipline. There are many reasons you can believe homosexuality a grave sin and still not favor Prop 8. Prop 8 is a political issue, the moral issue is whether the church marries homosexuals and considers homosexuality a sin. The church is entitled to speak out on both the moral and political issue, and I should be entitled to publicly disagree on the political. A Random John – Given that Elder Clayton’s initial statement to the press was that members in opposition to Prop 8 would not be sanctioned, and this is his current statement, why do you believe the consequence of silencing members is unintended? |
Nate W., There was an internal memo distributed on the general presidency level. My source was in a position to receive it and that is all I’m going to say on the matter. Like I said, I know that I’m not providing any evidence and I realize that by doing so I’ve given ample reason to doubt me. That is fine with me. The current public position now matches what I’ve been saying for years was the private position. |
ARJ – thanks for the post. You bring up some great questions. It seems that anytime one opposes the Church on an issue, certain members assume you are apostate. The scary part is that sometimes those certain members are local leaders and can take actions that I am not sure the GAs would always support. That is what scares me about the article you cited – local leaders are not always the ones I want to put my faith in, I would much rather put it in the 12… |
You defend Elder Clayton’s statement because you assume that there is a line of reasonable dissent people that would be acceptable and discipline would be for people crossing that line of respect. I think I’ve made it clear above that the line is for individual local leaders to discern. Your local leader, apparently, has drawn a particular line. But don’t make the mistake of thinking other leaders in other areas aren’t appropriately recognizing healthy questioning. I believe removing a temple recommend to an otherwise worthy member to be sanction or discipline. I’m not a bishop, so I can’t make that call. I’d probably recommend appealing and your bishop’s decision to your stake president and citing Elder Clayton. However … I do think you need to be careful on how you approach dissent and the Bloggernacle. It’s a public forum and criticism of the Church in a public forum is different from disagreeing from the brethren and just leaving it alone. Perhaps Elder Clayton meant that declining to donate $25,000 was OK, but bashing the Church online was not. But I can’t make that call (although, based solely on your description, it sounds like you probably weren’t attacking the Church.) Again, there’s a reason I’m more or less anonymous and use a pseudonym. And why I’m generally unwilling to cross my bishop and stake president on anything that might cause me to lose my temple recommend… |
I think it’s rare, but that kind of thing can happen. For example, my brother-in-law and his wife were required by their bishop to keep silent on their views regarding evolution. Otherwise, they would not have temple recommends. So, they chose obedience to priesthood authority and silence. That would be a tough trial to put up with, but hardly the worst I would want to avoid. |
About ten years ago, general presidency level . . . Sydney Sharon Smith Reynolds? Sheri Dew? |
I dunno. In context, I read the statement as simply a general response to the question of how church discipline is conducted. The church position has long been that it is a local matter, not directed from Salt Lake. I think Clayton’s response is just a somewhat ambiguously-worded statement that there is no special directive out of 50 East North Temple, and that the usual locally-directed procedures apply. I think he’s trying to say that Salt Lake *isn’t* going to direct any action against members who publicly opposed the proposition. |
But Left Field, the sad fact is that if the people at 50 E. North Temple do not explicitly forbid it, we can be sure that an ambiguously worded statement such as this will be interpreted by some local leaders as a wink,wink approval to initiate a purge, as comment # 38 makes clear. If the church doesn’t want disciplinary action taken against people for their position on prop 8, it will need to do better than this. In fact, even if it did sent out a letter explicitly forbidding it, there are bishops and SPs who would ignore it and do whatever they wanted. |
It’s worth noting that the “local matter” line that the church always offers in response to questions of church discipline is the most blatantly deceptive public stance that the church currently takes. |
I don’t really disagree with anything in 45-46, but this guy is what, a 70? He doesn’t want to be giving out disciplinary instructions without direction from upstairs, and even if he did, he would send it directly to bishops and SPs, not announce it in an interview with the media. On the other hand, he can’t really speak for any bishops and stake presidents and say whether or not anything might be initiated at the local level. For all he knows, someone somewhere might have blatantly crossed the established lines, and he doesn’t want to tie the hands of any local leaders who might have a case where church discipline might be genuinely called for. Not being Sarah Palin, he probably didn’t want to go off-message and either announce a prohibition of discipline that he wasn’t authorized to announce, or give any unauthorized announcement of disciplinary instructions. So having been asked the question, he probably just punted by giving the official line that all that is up to local leaders. But responding on the fly, he ended up with a statement in which one can plausibly read some encouragement for discipline to be initiated. I just don’t think it likely that that reading represents his intent. |
More proof that the most sacred commandment and the biggest, fattest sacred cow in the LDS church is “Thou shalt not commit publicity”. |
“Andrew Callahan: Apostasy” Andrew Callahan was apostate long before this matter. He’s been posting on RfM for years under the psuedonym “Flatlander,” and admittedly hadn’t been active for much of that time. This was a publicity stunt by him, and he used the fact that someone made a mistake and ordained him a high priest at some point in his past to its fullest extent. I’m just tired of seeing his name as a prominent Mormon dissenter whose faith was tested by our “strident” stance, when, in fact, he hadn’t considered himself part of the flock for years. |
49 - the problem is that unless you don’t care about your status in the church, you do not become the poster child for dissent. If you consider yourself part of the flock, then when they threaten to remove your TR, even if you believe you’ve done nothing wrong, you back down, and no one finds out except a few people reading a blog with an anonymous comment. No one wants to think a bishop would do that without cause (I was no different) and when it is reported in the press as a discretionary local matter, everyone assumes the member crossed the line of respect or had “other issues”. If the 1st Presidency can issue a letter to its entire membership indicating that it is not appropriate to use a visual aid in sacrament meeting, they are perfectly capable of creating some general guidelines by which opposition to political issues can be judged and distributing these at the very least to local leaders. I would have been happy to have my opposition judged on its merits not on its mere existence. But more importantly than my little scenario is the bigger picture – as long as the church decides to participate in the political process, it owes its members a clear understanding of whether and how they can participate in the political process in opposition to the church’s stance and remain members in full fellowship, and then let local leaders decide if that line is crossed. |
I probably shouldn’t ask DKL this but, want to elaborate a little? I’m assuming you mean that when a member is excommunicated it must be signed off on by the Prophet but I could be wrong about this assumption. I’m not overly familiar with the process of excommunication (thank goodness). |
The church is very clear that certain things should not trigger church courts, and are therefore not “local matters.” These include Word of Wisdom violations and lack of testimony. When they say, “It’s a local matter” they are avoiding plain talk, because they’re saying that excommunication is fair game. They could say, “no disciplinary action” like they do with Word of Wisdom, but they don’t. To this day, the church still uses excommunication as a way to discredit pluralistic viewpoints that they don’t like; look at how many Signature authors have been ex’d within the last 8 years. While church leaders no longer lie and commission lies about things that could embarrass the church (e.g., the Mountain Meadows Massacre), the leadership still maintains something of a bunker mentality with regard to dissent. That said, there is a clear difference between criticizing church leaders and attempting to discredit them. When you attempt to discredit church leaders, you cross a line from dissent to apostasy. Sonia Johnson is a perfect example — testifying before Congress as a Mormon to discredit Mormon leadership. The best thing that I’ve heard said about her was said by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich when discussing why it is unfortunate that she became the poster child of Mormon dissent. At the 2005 MHA conference in Vermont, she said something to the effect that “Sonia Johnson was neither a good Mormon nor a good feminist.” |
I have personal knowledge of two stake disciplinary councils held at the direction of SLC. (They did not involve apostasy.) While SLC directed that the disciplinary councils be held, to my knowledge, SLC did not direct the sanction imposed, which was left to the local officers. |
to not usually anonymous, The bishop who withheld or threatened to withhold your recommend was out of line. If you don’t feel comfortable raising the issue directly with your stake president or writing to President Monson, you might try contacting someone like John Dehlin or Armand Mauss or Molly Bennion or some of the permabloggers for suggestions on how to reach someone in authority without risking your standing in the Church (or appearing to be unduly critical of your local leader). |
Thanks, DKL… I was wondering what your view was. I was just reviewing the 1999 CHI about excommunication and it does seem to be a little ambiguous in certain areas though I would assume this is to allow leaders to prayerfully consider their choices and the consequences their actions may have on the member who is facing the disciplinary council. The CHI does state that excommunication is meant only for the “most serious of matters” but, this too, can be subjective. I do think there is a fine line about public dissent and the actions required to remedy such situations. I have no problem speaking my mind on my beliefs regarding the tenets of the church but it is much different to do so while teaching Relief Society or giving a talk in Sacrament meeting. I’ve actually cringed a little while back when a woman I was serving with in the Primary told the children that watching TV on Sunday is breaking the Sabbath (she is actually a very, very good friend of mine though we have some differing opinions). And I felt that while that may be her opinion, it’s not official doctrine (or if it is, I’m doomed for outer darkness) so she shouldn’t be teaching it as a leader. This is a very benign example but I think we regularly hear opinion touted as fact during our church meetings and it can get out of hand at times. This isn’t a case for excommunication but someone who continues to teach false doctrines or makes an effort to lead others away should be removed for the sake of other members. |
I am confused and have a serious question. I am not trying to “bait” anyone or stir-up a hornet’s nest. I truly do not understand and would appreciate hearing some clarification. It seems that some believe that whatever a GA says, in any venue or any circumstances, is God’s direction to us all of us unless the GA specifically says that it is only his opinion. But I find that inconsistent with the concept of listening, pondering, praying, and only accepting things as doctrine after receiving divine confirmation. Blindly following church leaders seems to me to be inconsistent with the history of the church as well as with my (admittedly very small) understanding of the scriptures. I think there is a reason we have been instructed in the scriptures to search things out and decide the truth of them on our own. Historically there have been GA’s who have taught things that were wrong and led people right out of the church. Are our leaders at all levels of authority in the church now so perfected that critical questioning is a sin? Have we suddenly an infallible pope? I think the church has been very clear about the doctrine on same-sex attraction. Based on doctrinal authority we cannot question that doctrine. We have only to pray about it, receive confirmation of it, and accept it regardless of how we feel about it. However, I think how we apply the doctrine is a legitimate area for questioning and I think we see that over and over again in our scriptures. Yet some seem to be saying that all things are doctrinal the same way that all things are spiritual and that to disagree or to think that any behavior is questionable is a rejection of God’s will and church authority. Is it impossible for leaders of the church to be wrong in how they act? Was George P. Lee the last GA to be wrong about anything? Is asking questions, questioning assumptions, and even advocating for change in the behavior of church members now sinful? Funny, because questioning assumptions and actions are precisely the things that I did that brought me into the gospel. The questioning, and divine answering, form the basis of my testimony. To follow blindly is to surrender my agency to someone who says they know the right path and that I do not need the confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Sorry, but I think that was the Other plan. Perhaps my faith is too weak, but I do not believe the leaders of the church are infallible. I believe they are men and women with the strengths and weaknesses of men and women. I am content to believe that in doctrinal matters they are inspired and I am not qualified to question the doctrine. But if “encouraging members to support” is code for “do as we say or else” or “to question” is “to reject” then I suppose I am on the road that leads to a loss of faith. How sad it is if dissent is now not only unpatriotic, but also unrighteous. |
HammerHead, It is my opinion that honest, thoughtful political expression is patriotic whether it happens to be classified as dissent or not. I also think that members should participate honestly in the political process and that it would be unrighteous to do so in a way that does not reflect their honest opinions. I want to stress that attacking the Church and its leaders doesn’t qualify as political speech in my book. I do think that some people have used the controversy over Prop 8 as an easy excuse to attack the Church. That is unfortunate. While being critical of the Church is certainly a right of members it comes with consequences. Such complaints should be classified separately from pure political speech. My concern is that this distinction isn’t being made clear. I hear rumors and see comments indicating that people are being sanctioned for what seems to be appropriate political expression. This is unsettling and I would also like clarification. |
Hammerhead – I don’t think you comments “stir-up a hornet’s nest” in any way. I too believe that our leaders are not infallible and that to stop pondering what we are told and to stop asking for confirmation from HF on matter whether big or small is, in deed, surrendering our agency. However, I believe how things are done is often just as important as what is done. A member who simply states that he/she does not believe an admonition from the leaders on an individual basis but leaves others to believe what they want – even if there is some discussion and explanation of that person’s beliefs – is following his/her own moral code. A member who gets on the news and states “My church is wrong!” to the world is asking to be, at the very least, reprimanded by his/her Bishop. I do think there is too much of a “sheep” mentality in many areas of the church and that was one reason I originally became inactive in my 20s. I jus saw too many of my peers working really hard to be “good” (and I use this term rather than “Christian” or “Christ-like” because they didn’t understand the distinction between the two) and really, really hated any honest questions brought up in church classes or otherwise. The social element was an issue, too, but not as much as this idea that we all must be homogenous to be considered Saints. I think if there had been an outlet like MM for me at the time I may have found some solace in the company – albeit virtual company – of those less interested in following the crowd.
a random john – To me this seems like a tactic from those who assert that the LDS church is trying to take away the rights of others by taking a stance on a legal issue directly related to our moral beliefs. To me, it *feels* like “Watch out… if you speak your mind in the Mormon church, you’ll get tossed out!†I am very possibly just naïve on this issue but I don’t think the church really wants to run around excommunicating people for the very basic political reason that it paints them in a bad light. I also believe that the majority of the people serving in the church are doing so out of love for the institution, love for the people in it, and for the Lord. There are some leaders who tend to be maniacal, short-sighted, and power hungry but I believe (or maybe hope?) they are few and far between. |
ARJ, The idea that “what Elder Whitney (or any other GA) didn’t say implicates him” as being guilty of some form of ignorance or bearing false witness, heaven help us all. That logic is as bad as any. As for religious liberty, having my religious definition of marriage be made unacceptable or marginalized by law is an infringement of religious liberty. Of course people will be ex’d, but I would not lend credence to even the notion that the process is some sort of witch hunt. People make their own decisions and those that face discipline are more often than not less than completely honest concerning the nature of the process, to the detriment of the Church. Hammerhead, There are many levels of obedience, blind obedience being the lowest form. It might be interesting to note that people on both sides of the issue fasted and prayed to know how they should lend support and rendered their vote how they felt. Some felt they their answer was to support the leadership of the Church, as many feel that the leadership can often see things dow the road that we cannot. Neither side can or ought to be marginalized. |
In general, the negative response to the Church on the issue, especially among members, is saddening. |
ARJ,
Are you saying that complaints about the Church on political grounds (prop 8) are justifiable (not worthy of discipline) per se? |
Prop 8 is destined to always be cool when placed in parentheses. |
nasamomdele, The idea that “what Elder Whitney (or any other GA) didn’t say implicates him†as being guilty of some form of ignorance or bearing false witness, heaven help us all. That logic is as bad as any. Who on earth are you quoting here? If you want to make me look stupid put making up things that I never said then go right ahead, but I’m not the one that comes out of that looking dumb. By the way, making up quotes for me is a form of bearing false witness. Are you saying that complaints about the Church on political grounds (prop 8) are justifiable (not worthy of discipline) per se? I’m saying that nobody needs to complain about the Church in general or the gospel in the discussion surrounding Prop 8. I think that one can engage in critical discussion of individual pro-Prop 8 arguments that the Church has made without being critical of the Church itself. |
nasamomdele – “As for religious liberty, having my religious definition of marriage be made unacceptable or marginalized by law is an infringement of religious liberty.” I think this is a wonderful response to arj’s question about “how Prop 8 was a threat to religious liberty…” I was watching Ellen DeGeneres’s talk show this morning and she, of course, was against Proposition 8 and for Obama. In response to the two outcomes she said it saddened her to see such progress toward equality in the election of Obama and such inequality in the passing of Proposition 8. Honestly, I feel like there are many voices out there basically saying that if those in favor of defining marriage as that between a man and woman would just “get with it,” be more “progressive,” and were interested in true “equality” we would see how important same-sex marriage is. I don’t see same-sex marriage as an issue of equality and really dislike the analogy made to racial equality. They are not truly analogous in my opinion. Why can I not be free to define marriage in a way that matches my moral views and beliefs? Why should I have to accept another person’s definition of marriage if it differs so much from my own? I can be tolerant of the lifestyle and that person’s choice to build a life with a person of the same gender, but to claim we must have matching definitions of the term we use to clasify that relationship is marginalizing my own beliefs and religious freedoms. |
#63 ARJ, I agree. |
#63 ARJ, I agree with your last paragraph, but:
This is what I was referring to in the first- your criticism of Elder Clayton’s statement about religious liberty. It’s clear you disagree with any argument about religious liberty from your following paragraphs, but saying that his argument would be flimsy, and that he spoke vaguely for “fear of making it clear that it is flimsy” is accusing the man of speaking in half-truths or in some form of ignorance. The argument may be flimsy, but the fact that he said no more “for fear” is a criticism of the man. Neither of which I agree with. |
nasamomdele, Now you’re the one making flimsy arguments. Elder Clayton himself said, “How and where that would play out I can’t say,” which is an admission that there is no detail, no meat to the argument. If I came across as critical of Elder Clayton as a person I’m very sorry. My intention is to make the point that the argument is weak and that attempts to flesh it out (such as yours) are folly. Did the civil rights movement impinge on the religious liberty of Mormons when we maintained racially based distinctions long after civil rights were granted? |
#42- What were these views on evolution that they were required to keep quiet? |
David, the ones Darwin presented in On the Origin of Species regarding common descent for all life on Earth. |
John, who could possibly ask them to keep quiet about that? I’m shocked. |
It’s possible that Elder Clayton believes that those who opposed it should be disciplined, but he’s not sure and he doesn’t want to commit in case he’s wrong. I would oppose any discipline of those opposed. Although, I’m wondering if those disciplined crossed a line somewhere into open opposition to the leadership; or if they were homosexuals who outed themselves and because of their behavior (not their homosexuality itself) were excommunicated. It appears to me that where there’s smoke, there’s fire and that indeed, there have been repercussions. I’d like to know all the facts before I decide how I judge the situation, however. I still think this is overzealous leaders who are interpreting policy and speaking for the “church” when they shouldn’t. I’ve had leaders try to dominate me in their personal opinions. I suppose that’s par for the course as the church membership grows exponentially. Again, it comes down to individual judgement and choice and those who follow blindly are just as apt to follow someone in error as to follow the prophet to the Celestial Kingdom. |
arj, The divinity of marriage is a very different doctrine than the priesthood ban. Especially when rights associated with the constitution are considered. The Church has never granted anything to homosexuals and has followed scripture, whereas the Church has a history of granting priesthood to some blacks, and no viable scriptural foundation for the ban. On its face, the precedent was there for rescinding the priesthood ban. There is no precedent for rescinding the doctrine of the sanctity of marriage. For anyone else, I could understand more the assertion that the argument is flimsy. For LDS, not so much. We sustain our leaders as prophets, seers, and revelators in good faith that they might just be able to see things that we can’t. So the argument is flimsy on its face, but considering the source (I’m not necessarily talking about Elder Clayton), it has merit (to LDS). Whats more, could you prove that legal SSM would not, at any time, create religious discrimination? It seems that the right answer is “Probably not. How and where that would play out I can’t say.” No argument. No meat. I don’t think anyone can say with more certainty than Clayton that there would not be some form of infringement of religious freedom or persectution of some nature. |
nasamomdele, You can split hairs all you want, but you haven’t answered my question. How did the granting of civil rights by the government infringe on LDS pratice of religion? Also, you’re confusing the issue, I hope this is not on purpose: There is no precedent for rescinding the doctrine of the sanctity of marriage. I haven’t heard anyone suggest that the Church needs to or would be forced to rescind any doctrines. The Church is still allowed to hold any doctrine it wants to. LDS practices outside of past polygamy remain unfettered by the government. Logic free assertions such as the one you just made are great for fanning the flames and generating more heat than light. They make for great scare tactics but they don’t bring any clarity though. If people are in trouble for calling out assertions such as yours for what they are then that is reason for concern. |
arj – nasamomdele said, “The divinity of marriage is a very different doctrine than the priesthood ban.” Because these two issues are not analogous makes your question regarding civil rights rather moot. The issue of same-sex marriage is NOT a civil rights issue like that of the rights for blacks in our country. If I was a person of color, I’d get pretty tired of homosexuals continuing to use the history of racial discrimination in this country to support their own agendas. |
#74, And the Black community would agree with you. They typically vote in large numbers for initiatives like prop 8. In fact they voted 70-30 in favor of it. |
PftPP, They are sufficiently analogous to make the question worth answering. During the civil rights movement society took steps that some church leaders condemned at the time in very strong terms. These changes at the time seemed contrary to LDS thought and practice. In fact the straws that nasamomdele grasps at are still not well known among members and at the time were basically lost knowledge. Yet the civil rights movement and the changes it brought didn’t infringe on the ability of LDS to practice their religion. I do not see how that fate of Prop 8 is at all tied to our right of freedom of religion. I’m trying to give nasamomdele and others a chance to show a counter-example. If someone can point out a recent case involving an issue other than polygamy in which the LDS lost some measure of First Amendment rights I’d be very interested. |
arj, It is you who are making the illogical assertion, which is a mantra against prop 8. The Church may have provided “flimsy” arguments, but NO on 8 folks provided worse arguments and neglected to gather political backing because their arguments were so flimsy. Paroled said it well. Your question regarding civil rights is moot, despite the obvious answer, which I provided. The issue of civil rights simply does not apply in kind, and yes, those most affected in the cause for civil rights would agree with that assertion- at least 70% would. My assertion stands. What support do you have to say that legal SSM is not an infringement of LDS freedom to practice religion or will be in the future? The Church believes in being subject to governments… and you know the rest. The Church has positioned itself in such a place as to not have to be subject to something that it does not desire to be subject to. A sufficient framework does not exist yet for SSM and sanctity of marriage to coexist. And it may not ever as there are either implications of infringements of religious rights or Church above state. And where does a Church member turn to for guidance for the future, appropriate behavior and norms, and doctrine? Such prophetic “flimsy” words of Church leaders. I digress- I agree that one ought not be punished for taking a stand on the issues- either way- and by either side of the argument. |
#76 arj, I repeat: What doctrinal basis was there for racism in the Church? There was no precedent for the practice. There was always more precedent to rescind the practice than there was to continue it. There is, and always has been precedent for sanctity of marriage. It’s apples and oranges you’re talking about. |
You could say that the priesthood ban was not right and that vocal support against it was not right. I don’t even try to rationalize it. I get the feeling that you’re trying to say that the Pro-8 campaign (or support for it) is not right for the same reasons. And it seems like you are trying to build the case for that argument by now using an analogy to the Civil Rights movement. I’m telling you that you’re basing that argument on a very illogical connection. Therefore, your argument is flimsy. At most, you can say, “Elder Clayton’s argument in not compelling to me.” To which I would agree, because his argument is not the basis of my support of the sanctity of marriage. |
nasamomdele, It is you who are making the illogical assertion, which is a mantra against prop 8. What is my illogical assertion? It might be a lack of reading comprehension skills on my part, but I can’t find in your comment where you pointed one out. Again, don’t limit yourself to civil rights, go find any recent government action that has infringed on our freedom of religion. My assertion stands. What support do you have to say that legal SSM is not an infringement of LDS freedom to practice religion or will be in the future? Freedom to practice one’s religion is a guarantee of the First Amendment of the constitution and I’m not aware of a situation in the last 100 years in which that right as it applies to the LDS has been infringed. I also have the fact that you have yet to suggest a specific hypothetical. |
It’s not clear to me that gay marriage is or should be a right. I honestly didn’t care all that much about the politics or the controversy until now – but reading about gay activists protesting outside a Mormon temple is enough to make me want to contribute in support of Prop. 8. |
nasamomdele, I wrote my #80 prior to seeing your #79. I am not trying to say that support for Prop 8 is not right. I’m trying to find out how our freedom of religion could be compromised. It isn’t my job to invent and then counter any possible argument in that area. It is the job of those making that assertion that freedom of religion will be affected to lay out their case. Given that those that make this assertion have flatly refused to do so the assertion fails, at least until such detail and logic is provided. Similarly if you say that gay marriage affects LDS doctrines on the sanctity of marriage in order to be convincing you have to demonstrate how this is so, because it isn’t clear to me that this is the case. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that you haven’t laid out any argument at all. You might be right, but simply proclaiming that you’re right isn’t enough. |
danithew, You are several days too late, but the anger directed at the LDS Church is inappropriate to say the least. There was a coalition of groups that supported Prop 8 and it seems that our Church is simply the most visible and easiest target. If Prop 8 had failed and a bunch of Mormons held an angry protest in the Castro District it would be seen as highly inappropriate and would scandalize the nation. Of course I don’t think that Mormons would have reacted that way, but there have probably been countless small scandalous acts on both sides of the issue during this fight. |
ARJ, I am aware that Prop 8 already passed. But as the news is making plainly evident, the fight on this controversy is just beginning. I think now we are beginning to see that everyone is going to be provoked to take one side or the other. It’s not a difficult choice for me at all. |
arJ, I think that there is a conflation in terms here that has people confused. I think when a lot of people say religious freedom they mean religious interest. Religious freedom includes the freedom to preach, to congregate with fellow believers, and to perform religious rituals. When people say religious freedom, what I think a lot have in mind is the question of whether it is good for their particular religion. Let me illustrate: For our hypothetical let’s travel to Salt Lake City. The city has had enough of the conference street preachers and so passes the following ordinance: Whereas, the freedom to peaceably assemble for worship purposes is a vital component of religious freedom, and whereas, contentious protest and proselytizing upsets the peace and goodwill that characterizes religious worship and reduces the quality of the worship experience for parishioners, therefore, be it enacted that no protest or proselytizing shall occur within 500 feet of any church within the hour prior to, during, and within the hour after the worship services of that church. Anyone who has experienced the street preachers at temple square would probably agree with the preface of the ordinance. Having a contentious person calling you to repentance while you are standing in line to get in to the conference center does take away from the spirit of the meeting. The ordinance would likely increase the quality of the religious experience for many conference-goers. However, this ordinance would be unequivocally bad for the principles of religious freedom, as it would limit the freedom of the street preachers to proclaim their beliefs. This story illustrates in my mind an important distinction that I think we sometimes overlook: just because a law promotes a view that is hostile to a particular point of view of a religion does not mean that it violates the principles of religious freedom. I, for one, freely admit that government tolerance of homosexuality and the sanctioning of same-sex relationships pose problems for the promotion of LDS doctrine. It becomes harder for a church to preach that a certain behavior is a sin when the state endorses that behavior. One can envision all sorts of practical problems from proselytizing to record keeping that the Church suffers because of same-sex marriage. However, these problems do not necessarily mean that religious freedom is implicated. |
Nate W., I agree completely. Many people seem to think that because the government allows or even endorses something that is contrary to their religion that their rights have been violated when in fact they have not been. As for me my religion prohibits coffee and I’ve never had a cup, but I don’t think that the fact that coffee is legal is an infringement of my rights. |
I do not think the Church’s argument was that same sex marriage would of itself violate the Church’s (or its members’) religious liberty. I think the leaders were concerned, rightly or wrongly, that the state sanction of same sex marriage could at some point lead to collisions with the religious liberty interests of our Church or others. While I think the Church, as a church, is safe from being compelled to change its restrictive doctrines or practices with respect to marriage because of the First Amendment, it is not clear to me how far those protections apply when it comes to Church related organizations. For example, could same sex marriage and related legislation require BYU or LDS Family Services or the Deseret News or KSL or Deseret Industries to hire individuals in a same sex marriage and to provide spousal benefits? While I think same sex marriage and nondiscrimation legislation could be crafted to carve out exceptions for such Church-related institutions, I am not sure to what extent such exceptions would be automatic and compelled by the First Amendment. |
DavidH: A) Your concern is addressed in Presiding Bishop v. Amos. The short answer is that there are statutory exceptions in anti-discrimination laws for religions, even for non-religious jobs. That exception is not unconstitutional. B) That concern has nothing to do with marriage (particularly when civil unions provide the same benefits) and everything to do with non-discrimination laws, which the Church does not oppose. C) there is no Constitutional protection for the Church to be exempt from non-discrimination laws for non-religious subsidiaries, as it would be a generally applicable law and would likely not interfere with the Church’s message. If a non-discrimination law passed that had no exemptions for church employment (a scenario that would require an America that is far different than the one that exists today), it is likely the Church would just divest itself of the companies and move on. |
My wife was called an apostate for declining pie at a RS gathering. Another woman hardly ever spoke to her again for turning down her carrot cake. The problem isn’t just kicking them out of church but leadership retribution by hold members accountable in other ways. |
arj, You keep asking for evidence that Mormon freedom of religion has been infringed upon in some way for the sake of what? To prove that it wouldn’t be in the future? Worse yet, you say “besides polygamy”, which is the one thing people could point to. I don’t care to answer the question because it is wholly besides the point. No one is making a claim that religious liberty has been threatened. They are making the claim that it could be. Do you dismiss that idea entirely? It is not the job of pro-8 people to think up ways that religious liberty could be infringed, because that is not the issue. That is a straw man. Of course it’s possible that religious liberty could be infringed upon in the unforeseen future, but there is no reason to hypothesize when the issue is, at least for the Church, one of doctrine and doing what they feel is best for society based on that doctrine. People voted for 8 in support of religion and the sanctity of marriage. |
For example, could same sex marriage and related legislation require BYU or LDS Family Services or the Deseret News or KSL or Deseret Industries to hire individuals in a same sex marriage and to provide spousal benefits? KSL and Deseret News, absolutely – if they provide any spousal benefits at all. They neither are nor claim to be religious organizations nor to qualify for any related legal exemptions. BYU / LDS Family Services probably not. BYU certainly claims religious organization legal exemptions, and I imagine LDS Family Services does too. That said I think the government might be able to regulate LDSFS out of the adoption business without running afoul of free exercise rights (unfortunately), if they have some sort of legitimate state interest in mind. |
Religious liberty consequences are something significant to think about, but are still an ancillary issue. As I understand it, from a gospel perspective, gay marriage is a perverse, false concept. The Church is in a de facto opposition to such an idea. |
nasamomdele, I’m running out of patience with you. The lack of logic displayed by your arguments is impressive, to say the least. You keep asking for evidence that Mormon freedom of religion has been infringed upon in some way for the sake of what? To prove that it wouldn’t be in the future? I’m asking because if there were such a case from the past then perhaps the mechanism at work in that case would be applicable here. I’m trying to help you. Also, the future tends to look like the past. If there haven’t been infringements then there are unlikely to be any in the future. As for polygamy, feel free to use it if you want to. Frankly I think that the polygamy decisions were a violation of First Amendment rights and were bad decisions. Not that I have any desire to be a polygamist. One could argue that Prop 8 hurts religious freedom because gay marriage is a stepping stone to polygamous marriage. If polygamy comes before the Supreme Court again I think it is likely that they will legalize religious sexual practices between consenting adults. Honestly I think that the case could be much more easily made that Prop 8 infringes on religious rights or has the potential to than that gay marriage infringes on those rights. No one is making a claim that religious liberty has been threatened. They are making the claim that it could be. Do you dismiss that idea entirely? Yes, I dismiss it entirely for now because you and others have not given a single hypothetical. If you are going to try to justify your position on this issue using that argument then in order to be taken seriously you have to say HOW it would be threatened. You have to explain the mechanism. If I said, “If Prop 8 fails to pass then trash cans could fall out of the sky and kill kittens by smashing them!” you’d demand that I connect the dots between Prop 8 and trash cans becoming airborne. If I failed to do so then you’d correctly dismiss the idea entirely as baseless. It is not the job of pro-8 people to think up ways that religious liberty could be infringed, because that is not the issue. That is a straw man. Great, you admit to using a straw man argument. While I disagree that it meets the definition of a straw man argument I’m willing to say that we agree that your arguments are fallacious. Now that we’re in basic agreement can we give it a rest? |
danithew, There are lots of things that the Church is opposed to that we make no attempt to legislate. I’m wondering where the line is drawn. Obviously we don’t care to outlaw coffee, but why is that? The Church certainly tried to keep Prohibition in place. Are some aspects of the Word of Wisdom moral issues and others not? Should Mormons attempt to legislate Mormon commandments and ideals whenever they have the power to do so? Is that what determines the fights we pick, that ability to win? I think that the Church has been very restrained in flexing its political muscle, but I am concerned that when it does members are given the impression that laws should reflect LDS commandments and doctrines. Since this is clearly unworkable, where is the line drawn? |
I’m not buying the coffee analogy in relation to gay marriage. There is a distinct level of difference in the seriousness/impact of the two issues. |
#94: “Where is the line drawn? Hopefully, at a place that doesn’t divide the members of the Church. |
danithew, I’m not drawing an analogy. I’m asking where the line is drawn. Clearly at one point the line in the WoW was drawn somewhere between coffee and alcohol. Now it is between alcohol and illicit drugs. On sexual matters it used to be drawn this side of adultery. Now it is drawn on the far side of gay sex. For marriage the history of where the line is drawn is a bit more interesting. We’ve gone from defending polygamy before the supreme court to being the most staunch defenders of traditional marriage. In any case the question remains, when is it appropriate to attempt to codify LDS belief into law and when is it appropriate to simply live your beliefs? |
Danithew: The major reason why the Church said it got involved on this issue was to protect religious freedom. It said as much here. To say that it is an ancillary issue is disingenuous to say the least. The only dividing line for when the Church should become involved in a political issue is determined by three things: the extent that the Church will be affected by the issue, the extent that all of society will be affected by the issue, and the extent that the Church’s involvement will alter the outcome. In the same-sex marriage context, number 3 was definitely there. The problem is that I don’t think that there is really any evidence of the first and second factors. |
Trying to help me? I pointed out how your line of challenging was flawed. Frankly, I never put merit into your line of thinking, so you are trying to help yourself. My point has always been that although you may be right that Clayton’s argument may be flimsy without any accompanying hypotheticals, your dismissive line of thinking is equally flimsy. The main reason why is that you require Clayton or anyone to address the argument with a “hypothetical”. I said that as LDS, we don’t necessarily require hypotheticals and that religious infringement is or ought not to be the #1 reason for support of 8. You still insist on arguing: 1) That SSM has something in common with civil rights and 2) that “possible” religious infringement in the future is flimsy. The civil rights connection has been dealt with. But you back up your argument against infringement with very poor logic of your own- that there is no evidence that religious liberties have ever been infringed upon, therefore there is no reason to think there will be in the future. That’s like saying there is no reason to think that there is life on other planets because there has been no indication of such life up to this point. I would not hang my hat on such thinking. I think it is a valid argument, though it is, of course, ill-supported. But primarily, my point has always been that you are ignoring the real reasoning that has been repeated by the Mormon Church and all other Churches as to their motivation. You are attacking secondary ideas. They are not given the weight of the primary idea, and thus yours and others’ attacks on this one point are flimsy. Of course, this is anti-8 strategy, but like I said before, that strategy didn’t work. So your arguments are moot. You should not have addressed this, as the arguments are destined to sound like whining after the fact, but rather simply addressed members being ex’d. |
#98: “The extent that the Church’s involvement will alter the outcome”. That is the scary part for me. I believe in a ‘separation of church and state’. The Church crossed that divide, and more than one line that has caused contentions among it’s members and those viewing the Church from the outside. |
Bob, The Church and its members have every right to speak out on political issues. The Church is generally very restrained (compare it to other religions) on what it takes a formal position on. Anyone that thinks the Church has violated separation of church and state by participating in the discussion of this proposition simply doesn’t understand what separation of church and state means. |
#101: I think I have read enough history to know the dangers of not separating church and state. |
Bob, you’re wrong in every way. |
#93 & #99 The church has stated very clearly that “Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.” If SSM is legalized, it opens the door to a new definition of “family” and “parents” which would make it easier for same-sex couples to adopt. This would then infringe on the rights of the children brought into those homes who have the right to be “reared by a father and a mother.” Hypothetically this change in paradigm shift for our society could harm the message of the church. In fact, I’ve already heard the argument of “If the LDS church is so big on supporting families, why not support all families?” I believe it opens the church to more attacks from those interested in degrading the moral fabric of our society. Will it be so long before a same-sex couple is demanding the right to be sealed for time and all eternity in one of our temples? There *are* self-professed “gay Mormons” in this country. I think when we begin recognizing marriage as something other than what was designated by God, we open ourselves to additional moral decay. |
Paroled: Let’s use history as our guide rather than pretending we’ve never been here before. Have there been other non-temple-recommend holding members that have demanded to be sealed in the temple? How did that turn out? Has the Church been required to perform same-sex marriages in Cardston? In Boston? In Edmonton? In Regina? In Toronto? In Halifax? In Montreal? In Johannesburg? I think you get my drift. Anything’s possible, but empirical observation says it’s not at all likely. And regarding children: that’s one of the rights secured for domestic partnerships in California–having equal status as to adoption as opposite-sex couples. Prop. 8 did nothing to stop that. So no, that wasn’t the reason either. |
arj – #97 “I’m not drawing an analogy. I’m asking where the line is drawn. Clearly at one point the line in the WoW was drawn somewhere between coffee and alcohol. Now it is between alcohol and illicit drugs. On sexual matters it used to be drawn this side of adultery. Now it is drawn on the far side of gay sex.” Umm… This would be an analogy. Webster’s defines an analogy as “showing resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike.” Regardless of the analogy, the answer is simple. As society changes and becomes more perverse, we choose to fight the battles that are still left to fight. The battle against legalizing alcohol is far lost. We fought to keep it illegal when the government tried to impose this standard on the people. To pick up that fight now would be an exercise in futility. The answer to the question of “why alcohol and not coffee?” is also obvious. The dangers of alcohol are much more extreme than the dangers of coffee. I also don’t think the church is abandoning its stance that adultery is wrong… We just don’t have a legal battle to get behind at this time. Proposition 8 wasn’t proposed by the church. The church saw an opportunity to see its standards upheld by the world and asked members to join in the efforts to have that come to pass. |
Nate W. – arj keeps asking for a hypothetical. I offered one. I didn’t say same-sex couples couldn’t adopt already, I’m saying redefining marriage would makes this much easier than it is now. And I don’t truly expect same-sex couples to come knocking on the door of the temple but, once again, what’s to stop them from demanding “equal rights” in the church? The government can’t force us to allow such things but is it possible that it could cause more contention? Of course. I was just offering some possiblities… |
PftPP–that language in the Proclamation is very strange, and, as far as I can tell, the Church has made no political efforts to define or guarantee that “right.” We’re not agitating to outlaw divorce, or take children away from homes where one spouse commits adultery, which would seem to be required by that language. Families that differ from the ideal exist and will continue to exist, both inside and outside of the Church–life is messy, and most children in the world don’t get what is their “right” or their due. I, for one, would like us to worry more about making sure all the children in the world are FED before we start fretting about the sexual proclivities of their parents. |
#108 – Is the moral well being of our children less important than their physical well being? We aren’t talking about just what sexual practices a child’s parents like to participate in. We are talking about defining marriage and family as something different than what God has designated. As the moral fabric of society breaks down, so does the well being of our people- spiritual and physical. Temporal issues and spiritual issues cannot be separated so easily. We may not be able to protect all children but can we deny that the integrity of our society is not linked to protecting families? I see Prop 8 as protecting families which is integral to a strong country and a strong society. |
Paroled, |
“Is the moral well being of our children less important than their physical well being?” In a word, yes. All the moral well-being in the world doesn’t do a starving child any good. |
Paroled, or anybody with insight In what way does prop 8 protect religions? I do not see anything listed there. I think this is one of the lie issues that keeps nagging at me. |
#103: Well THAT set my therapy back a couple of years! |
#110, you might want to double-check your history on that. Maine would have been the last ratification needed for the ammendment the next day had Utah not ratified the 21st ammendment. Utah’s ratification was not necessary for it to pass. |
Jerry: In my opinion – and I have no facts to back this up, it’s just an opinion – when we protect our beliefs and take a stand against those things we believe to be in opposition to the Plan of Salvation (or Plan of Happiness, your choice) we also protect our religion and those things we hold sacred. Can we go on practicing our religion in the face of great evil? Of course. Will that evil start to creep in on us more and more as it becomes a “normal” way of life? Absolutely. I think of how taboo homosexuality was when I was a child and how now it’s part of prime-time television. As our values erode as a society we risk losing hold of all things important. This sounds a little extreme, even to my own ears (eyes?), but I do believe it’s true. A small snowball can trigger an avalanch. |
Kristine – You’re detracting from the issue. I’m not saying we need to ignore the physical well being of anyone suffering. But it’s separate from the SSM issue and the moral consequences of standing idly by while laws are passed to allow something we know to be wrong. We cannot “[make] sure all the children in the world are FED before we start” managing legal, civil, or moral issues. We need some of those laws and morals to make such a thing come to pass. That’s like saying until there are no poor in America we shouldn’t waste time with elections. It’s not possible to stop everything until the basic physical needs of every human on earth are met. |
Paroled, That is a good argument, but there was a dark side to when homosexuality was totally unaccepted and that was extremists would beat and kill homosexuals while society looked the other way. I do agree that we need to fight and defend our beliefs against all encroaching evils. I am just not sure that given the emotions around prop 8 that the church defended its beliefs. Of course if the FP does something that actually help get civil unions legal then that would go a long way to showing they mean what they are saying. |
Jerry – I agree that any abuse of peoples because of their choices is wrong and should not be tolerated. I don’t think anyone is hoping for a return of tolerated abuse of anyone whose lifestyle does not match the societal norm. In fact, the First Presidency has stated that they support measures that allow for protection of same-sex partners under the law and provide benefits – insurance and legal – to those partners. I don’t think, however, that we will see the FP actually working for more legality and support of same-sex unions regardless of the label applied. To me it would be like splitting hairs. So you think homosexuality is wrong and SSM should be banned but now you’re getting on the “rights for gays” bandwagon? I also think those on the opposite side of this issue would probably see it as hippocritical. I can’t think of anything the FP could do to support civil unions that wouldn’t conflict with the official doctrines and stance of the church regarding the definition and sanctity of marriage. |
Paroled: I don’t see an increase in tolerance as an eroding of our society or it’s values. |
Paroled:
Well, they said they don’t oppose them. Slight difference there. |
The church may not call it Evil today but they certainly did twenty years ago. I do see a softening of the churches position here just not as fast as society. One thing about the original post though while at BYU all of my religion professors were very clear on all GA comments were to be taken as personal opinion unless specifically stated as otherwise. So unless Elder Clayton specifically stated this is church policy from the FP what he said is his opinion. I am glad no one takes every word I say as gospel. It will be interesting 2-3 months from now to see how many opponents of 8 do feel punished even if they do not get ex’d. I expect some backlashes. Bishops or other leaders that did not support prop 8 will be released with no new calling for example. This will happen over several months to be more subtle. |
Are Members Getting Ex’d over Prop 8? Answer: No. |
“Bishops or other leaders that did not support prop 8 will be released with no new calling.” I cannot imagine a more fantastic reward. Where do I sign up? |
mcq and Brad Kramer need to get together and compare notes. Please report back when you’ve done so. |
Are members getting ex’d? They should be. I really don’t care what non-members do, gay or straight, but inside the church the rules are clear. When the first presidency asks for support we should concur; people like Steve Young’s wife should at very least by disfellowshiped until they are ready to support and follow the prophet, especially when that non-support make the news and its a slight embarrassment to the church. Same with all those active members who have gone on youtube to preach against the church in this SSM issue. |
Now might be a good time to look up and review those scriptures in the Book of Mormon about what happens when contention and dissension enter into the church … |
Kristine said, We’re not agitating to outlaw divorce In fact, in some countries we have supported measures to legalize divorce. That’s because the lack of divorce was preventing otherwise worthy and committed heterosexual couples from getting baptized. |
So do we have any cases of church discipline over Prop 8? Or are we all just grasping at straws because our lives are meaningless because the election is over? |
I’m just tired of seeing his name as a prominent Mormon dissenter whose faith was tested by our “strident†stance, when, in fact, he hadn’t considered himself part of the flock for years. But, if he were a famous athlete or a politician, we’d trumpet his Mormondom in blogs for years… |
I really don’t care what non-members do, gay or straight Samuel: |
queuno, Read this thread and you’ll find one. |
#119 Bob – You wrote, “I don’t see an increase in tolerance as an eroding of our society or it’s values.” Are you familiar with how you boil a frog? As we become more tolerant of the sanctioned proliferation of wickedness around us we also become less sensitive to it. I do not support attacking those whose lifestyles do not meet with my approval or morals but I fear we will begin seeing something we know to be wrong as “completely normal.†As LDS I believe we have a responsibility to show Christ’s love to everyone we come across and that includes homosexuals. But I do not believe we must just accept immoral behavior as the norm in our society. With Christ’s example, I believe there is a way to do both. Now that my sermon is over, I will give the pulpit time to cool off… |
Are you familiar with how you boil a frog? As we become more tolerant of the sanctioned proliferation of wickedness around us we also become less sensitive to it. Uh … I think that’s been discredited. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog (There are sources cited.) |
aRJ (131), if you’re referring to the temple recommend denial, then I guess that counts, although I was meaning “discipline” in the case of probation, disfellowship, or excommunication. Is there an example in the thread of one of those? I guess I’ve missed it. |
Samuel: “I really don’t care what non-members do, gay or straight, but inside the church the rules are clear. When the first presidency asks for support we should concur; people like Steve Young’s wife should at very least by disfellowshiped until they are ready to support and follow the prophet, especially when that non-support make the news and its a slight embarrassment to the church. Same with all those active members who have gone on youtube to preach against the church in this SSM issue.” This kind of thinking is, in my opinion, incompatible with real (as opposed to imagined) church doctrine. It is mor compatible with fascism than with a religion where we do not revere our prophets as infallible and where Joseph Smith himself famously stated that his job was to teach correct principles and let his people govern themselves. |
arJ, I don’t know what Brad is talking about but I have certainly not heard of any major discipline of any actual Church member for simply speaking his or her mind on prop 8. If someone were disciplined for bringing the church leaders themselves into disrepute or questioning their right to lead the church, that would be a completely different animal. I think the Church has been pretty clear that merely having a different political opinion from the church and stating it publicly does not constitute apostacy. And, BTW, having members that disagree with the church publicly is not embarrassing. Quite the reverse. It would be a lot more embarrassing if every member said or did only what the church leadership said to say and do. All during Romney’s campaign he and the church leaders and members took great pains to say that we were free thinkers, not robots. Now we get a chance to prove it and suddenly it’s a bad thing to think for ourselves? Sheesh. You can’t have it both ways, people. |
MCQ, My understanding is that people who value their membership and have asked to kindly shut up have done so. I have nothing concrete to point to though I keep hearing rumors. Perhaps they are simply rumors. Given that I’ve demonstrated my own reticence to fully disclose what I know on this thread I can hardly fault those such as Brad that aren’t as forthcoming as the curious might like. Also, I agree that a diversity of publicly expressed opinions is good for the Church and for Mormons in politics (outside of Utah anyhow) as well. |
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