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Why is it that the Church leadership is deemed to be at fault, and not its members, for the lack of civility? I think #11 is a huge problem. But … is that SLC’s problem? It’s not like they hid the latest teaching on SSM in a closet, so to speak. |
Queuno, True, but we send our missionaries to some pretty intensive training before they leave, and even in the mission field, there is a constant focus on discipline in their messaging. With one of the most complex and sensitive issues we face, we sent out people who are a step away from “Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!” – level understanding of the issue. I think that’s a very bad idea. |
I think you miss on some of you assertions. Being black was openly taught as the mark of the Cain when I was a teenager. Bruce R. McConkie taught that the blacks would not get the priesthood until the millennium only to later accept the change. While excluding blacks was a commonly held belief and practice among almost all religions it was based on pre-civil war racism. The Mormons were a little slower to move off the ban than most other faiths and there is where the problem comes in. Has anyone ever heard of or know someone who was cured from these inclinations by the means the church is using? For the church to call it an inclination after everything else they have said is a big step forward. No way should the church have to accept gays or the gay lifestyle, but we also do not accept people who live together or that openly drink and smoke. We clearly have a special vitriol for gay people that we do not have towards infidelity or other sexual sins. I do think you understate that in your assertions. With the post election statement does anyone actually believe that anyone who vocally opposed Prop 8 will be treated as the church has asked? Especially given how fired up so many members became after the church asked them to help pass it. |
On the church’s statement in reference to No. 4. That statement was made AFTER the vote, not before. Telling, huh? |
Do you really think the Church only held a “Position” in this matter? It used it’s power, money, people, time, buildings, leadership, and good name in an “attack” against the idea of Gay Marriage. |
Bob – The church hardly “attacked” SSM. They supported an initiative to support the definition of marriage as being that between a man and a woman which is a belief the church has always held. I dispute they actually used church funds for anything more than transportation of members but why should is be more than a position if the church used time, people, and its buildings to support an initiative in line with its values? Members were asked to support this initiative. They weren’t using the copier to make millions of leaflets or housing rallies in the parking lots of church buildings. How else do you hold a position – or even come to a position – without investing some time and effort? By the way, we weren’t the only church supporting this initiative. |
I conclude after reading the church’s official press releases and letters that the church itself, not just individual members, supported Prop 8. However, I learned that there was a vote in 2000 in California where the voters of that state overwhelmingly voted against gay marriage. Why did the state then allow it? Given that circumstance, we should re-think any condemnation of the church. They also seem to be making the distinction between having an opinion and picketing at churches and temples. It just seems contrary to me. Even if I supported gay marriage, I wouldn’t go bang on the gates of the temple because the prophet didn’t agree with me. The letter to members of California urged members to use their money to support Proposition 8. Specifically. Dang, you guys. But then, I was thinking, what if the issue came to Utah? I don’t want gay marriage, I’d probably become pretty activist pretty fast. I don’t think there’s anything wrong in equivocating between life experiences, either, Dan. Sure, in the Sudan, the family is breaking down because they’re ALL DYING, but in California, perhaps the prophet heard from the Lord and gay marriage was more of a threat. I was down in Newport Beach, CA last week when the proposition was passed and the local newscast made the point that almost all the picketers and protesters were white. They said that the overwhelming majority of Hispanic and Black voters voted for Proposition 8 and almost every Catholic in the state of California. They said a little about the ire being directed towards the Mormons, but they stated this was unfair since so many other religions were also in favor of the proposition. I have mixed emotions about the larger dreamier issue of compassion and world peace. I’m torn between thinking we should all love and accept each other on a dreamy, theoretical level and being unable to perfectly implement it in my life. I love my gay friend, but on a purely personal level, I’m opposed to gay marriage. There just has to be another way. |
only a matter of time. Obama will stack the Supremes and it’ll be the law of the land before long. |
Jerry (3),
The Church is not trying to cure anyone of anything. djinn (4), Bob (5), |
#6: The Church has positions on many things, but takes no action. The Church did print things, raise money, rally it’s members (through it’s leadership and in it’s buildings),that went well beyond taking a position. It went much farther than supporting an idea, it was a massive effort to change the Consitution of California. |
Bob – Many, many other churches were active in supporting Proposition 8 in California. The measure passed with 52% in favor of the definition for marriage being that between a man and woman. Do you think all 52% were Mormon? The San Francisco Chronicle stated the current percentage of Mormons in California is only 2%. Church members were not acting alone or voting alone. In fact, the article from the San Francisco Chronicle on October 27th states:
The LDS church is very organized in comparison with other churches. We’re very good at spreading information and informing members of the requests of the First Presidency. I think the amount of organization seen regarding Proposition 8 is both a reflection of how dear we hold marriages and family and how good we are at organizing ourselves in general. The LDS church has organized support for a legal initiative and taken a stand against SSM. We have not screamed obscenities at homosexuals, picketed their homes, tried to injure them or embarrass them. The church has stood its ground based on moral beliefs while asking its members to support their prophet. This is not an “attack.” Here is the link to the San Francisco Chronicle article. I apologize for the full address. I don’t know how to put it in without. Perhaps a moderator can fix it? |
Bob (10), The Church ran a campaign based on its position as a stakeholder in the definition of marriage in the state. |
Obama will stack the Supremes and it’ll be the law of the land before long. Well, it won’t happen by replacing Stevens or Ginsberg, who I believe are the next two who will retire… |
True, but we send our missionaries to some pretty intensive training before they leave, and even in the mission field, there is a constant focus on discipline in their messaging. With one of the most complex and sensitive issues we face, we sent out people who are a step away from “Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!†– level understanding of the issue. I think that’s a very bad idea. I laugh at the characterization of our missionaries. Three weeks in an MTC does not constitute intensive training (for those who spend 2 months, they’re mostly learning a language). There’s no way the Church can be blamed for members’ lack of civility. Even in the case of the missionaries — they are spending 100% of their time in the service of the Lord; most members may spend 1-2 hours a week outside the Sunday block in a calling and then a few hours in individual study (if we’re optimistic). Heck, even the ‘nacle isn’t civil… |
#9: I will not get into what is an “official Church statement”, or “Church Doctrine”. But, growing up in the Church before the ban, I was taught by GAs and other leaders: The ban was of God and about the Blacks. |
#11: I thought the article you linked was a good one..thank you. |
Ensign » 1974 » February Blacks and the priesthood: I am not sure that there will be a change, although there could be. We are under the dictates of our Heavenly Father, and this is not my policy or the Church’s policy. It is the policy of the Lord who has established it Not exactly a reason but President Kimball as the prophet clearly states that the priesthood position is direct from Lord. Not exactly a precedent either. Good discussion challenging us to think why we think what we think is always good. |
Jerry #3 – “Has anyone ever heard of or know someone who was cured from these inclinations by the means the church is using?” I don’t know what “means” you refer to but if you are asking whether or not ex-gays exist then the answer is yes. Besides, I don’t see why a complete cure of same-sex attraction is necessary when the true problem is the lack of opposite-sex attraction. Having bisexual attraction isn’t really a problem as long as you don’t act on your inclinations towards the same-sex. You still have the capacity to be attracted to and live happily with a member of the opposite sex, so what’s the issue? |
Re: blacks and the priesthood For those of you wondering what Church leaders did or didn’t know about the origins of the priesthood policy, I very strongly recommend the lengthy (80+ pages) article “Spencer W. Kimball and the Revelation on Priesthood” by Edward L. Kimball in the latest BYU Studies (Vol. 47, No. 2). It’s pretty clear from the article that Church leadership largely assumed that the policy had originated with Joseph Smith, and it was only through independent historical research, such as that by Lester Bush, that it became clear that the policy originated under Brigham Young. It appears that information made it far easier for Pres. Kimball to consider changing the policy. Interestingly, the article makes it clear that another major influence in changing the policy was a lengthy memorandum researched and written by Elder Bruce R. McConkie (at Pres. Kimball’s request). Elder McConkie concluded in his memo that there was no scriptural reason why the policy could not be changed. With those two barriers out of the way — this policy did not originate with Joseph Smith, and the scriptures did not require it to be sustained — it appears that Pres. Kimball felt far more comfortable pushing for a clear answer from the Lord as to whether the policy could be changed. I also get the sense from the article — particularly after having read the Prince & Wright biography of David O. McKay — that Pres. Kimball’s struggle to get an answer, and then his effort to have his counselors and the Twelve receive their own confirmations of his answer had itself a real impact on the Quorum of the Twelve. Several of the Twelve (including Elder McConkie) described their confirmation of the revelation as the most profound spiritual experiences of their lives, and that the process created a greater sense of unity among the Twelve. Elder L. Tom Perry, in an interview with Edward Kimball, said:
As I said, the article is worth reading. ..bruce.. |
Thanks, Bruce. I bought the biography of President Kimball (the most recent one), but I really need to find that article you cited. |
#12, Isn’t the Church continually mobilized to: fight poverty, both local and global; provide basic health needs and services in impoverished areas of the world; be on the ground anywhere, anytime with catastrophic relief; provide microlending for education, and so on? I don’t think there can be an argument that the Church lacks moral high ground. And I’m sure that if there was a vote for measures fighting the problems you mentioned, that the Church would support them on the same grounds they support 8- doctrine supports those things. I really think that complaints against the Church fall into 2 categories: 1) Folks disagree with the Church on SSM I think attempts to vilify the Church are ignorant and misguided. A real backgrond search into the accusations made against the Church has thus far cleared the Church of any wrongdoing on any grounds. Individuals are a different matter of course. |
nasamondele - I think there’s a 3. 3) People are really offended that the Church would get into politics. Churches should generally be seen but not heard. |
#22: I am not offended by the Church being in politics. But I do think they are playing with fire, and they don’t belong there. |
“only a matter of time. Obama will stack the Supremes and it’ll be the law of the land before long.” This comment would be funny if it weren’t so abysmally ignorant. “But the Mormon Church, or any other church, must use care in picking sides in the secular world.” This is clearly true and, in my view, is already the practice of the Church. “The Mormon Church believes in being a good “Subject†of any nation it happens to be in. It does not seek to control or set the rules of that nation, beyond it’s duty to encourage good will and moral behavior by that nation and it’s citizens.” I think this seriously mischaracterizes the Church’s position. The Church absolutely believes in being subject to governments and the rule of law, but also unquestionably believes it has the right to influence the law where the governmental process allows it to do so. The Church has never said that it will limit itself to “encouraging good will and moral behavior.” That would be a head-in-the-sand policy, and would hamstring the Church for no particular reason other than that people may, on occasion, be offended if the Church takes a political position that some find unpopular or unfashionable. Many of the Church’s political positions have, and will, be characterized that way, but failing to stand up for them could be seen as a failure of moral courage, which is far worse than being unpopular. |
If you go to the church’s website and click on the news releases, it’s pretty clear the church, the leadership did in fact instigate and support this movement and encourage members to donate time and money. Again, those who live in Utah, what would you do if a gay marriage law were close to being enacted? I’d get pretty darn militant and I wouldn’t need the leadership to encourage me. As far as the priesthood ban is concerned, that was racism, pure and simple. That generous racism that wouldn’t lynch a black man, but felt they were inferior. But that didn’t originate with Mormonism, it was the prevailing sentiment among most good people in America—the other sentiment was that they should be lynched and trodden upon at every possible moment. The only difference between Mormonism of the early 1900′s, say, and Southern Baptists is that Mormons had an official policy. The white southern Baptists didn’t let black men hold their priesthood either (and a lot of the Baptists were probably KKK members), they just didn’t put it in writing. I still hear in meetings today that the ban was about black inferiority and all that walking the fence in heaven stuff. Sorry to threadjack, but to imply that the ban was anything other than racism is ignorance. And frankly, the comparison of racism to dismay about the rise in homosexual behavior is just apples and oranges. They are two different situations. Homosexual men and women are God’s children, just like anyone else, and I don’t know about choice or nurture or genetics, whatever. I think we have to take God at His word, though, when He says that the homosexual relationship is unnatural and that marriage between a man and a woman is the way of heaven. Ultimately, and I repeat as I’ve said many times, our burden is to behave in a Christ-like manner. Jesus didn’t give people their way just because they wanted it, however. |
“He says that the homosexual relationship is unnatural and that marriage between a man and a woman is the way of heaven.” Did God actually say this annegb? |
Well, did the prophet say God said it? I thought so. |
#27: Good enough for me! |
I really hate to seem reductive on this (and I utterly despise the idea that “when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done” because it’s wrong) … but this does seem to be a line-in-the-sand issue for the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. Now, the Church leadership did say people can vote for themselves. But there’s a difference between “vote for yourself” and “the Church is wrong”. As Kevin Barney said on another post – I’m kind of glad that the Church as a collective body (not as an institution) can show that it has the organizational and financial wherewithal to take a losing proposition and get it passed. |
My opinion: Yes, the Church should have moral positions. Yes, it should openly state those positions. No, it need not defend it’s positions to it’s members. It is a Theocracy. |
Bob, What Church money? You keep referencing Church money, but I think you need to make your accusation more explicit. I’m a Church member and the morality and values I learn in Church affect my judgment every day, but especially on election day. Is that Church money being spent?
That is a complete re-write of democratic theory. Define force, for one. Everyone has values that we got from somewhere (an outside force), Bob. Do we all drop our beliefs when we get to the polls to vote for completely random things? The Church does not defend its position, it articulates its position for our benefit. It happens on a grand scale 2 times a year and even more often in between. The Church performed a legal duty in articulating its position and getting members aware and involved in the political process. The Church spent no more money than that. And if the Church had not articulated its position so, less people would have been active in the political process, which is a tragedy of Democracy. The Church spent a total of a little more than $2000 to send Church leadership to CA to meet with the coalition once. I, personally, would love to see the Catholic Church put forth an effort to get the votes out in Utah. |
No outside force should use it’s power or money in an effort to change that Constitution. Kindly point me to a place where that’s banned in the Constitution… |
The Church is not an outside force. It has members living in every state in the union, including California, where more Church members reside than in any other state except Utah. The Church is “inside” California, and has a real stake in California law. You can argue that the Church’s position is wrong, but you can’t say it is an “outside force.” That’s just plain hooey. |
#31: I think everyone knows the money I am talking about. You are either proud of it or not. Unless you live in California, you were not part of it’s election. By “force”, I mean the energy used to move something from one place to another. (Or stop it from Moving). |
#32: ” We the people of California” (“Or We the people of the United State” in America). |
As I recall, more out of state money came from the No on 8 side then the yes on 8 side. Did I hear a criticism of that. |
#37: If true, that too is wrong.But 80% of yes money came from Mormons. |
Bob, Even if 80% of yes money came from Mormons (which I doubt) what percent of that came from California Mormons? In any case you have yet to point out anything illegal or unethical that the Church or its members did in the Prop 8 campaign. As a member that has serious reservations concerning Prop 8 I don’t find your comments here to be informative or helpful. |
Bob, you are making a fool of yourself. The money raised for the Prop 8 campaign came overwhelmingly from California citizens. The Church did not donate money to this cause itself, nor did it raise money outside of California. The people who participated in the campaign were also overwhelmingly and almost exclusively California citizens. |
#39: I guess you missed about 40 years of the Federal Government involving itself in Utah state laws in the 19th century. I guess you missed the War Between the States over State Rights. I guess you missed the Civil Rights movement over State’s right to set it own laws. |
Google Docs. Mormon for 8 Donors. |
That’s “Mormons for 8″. |
bob, At this point you’re rambling. The Church has done nothing illegal or unethical. Obviously you think the Church is wrong but it isn’t clear how you think they are wrong. The Mormons for 8 site that I saw several weeks ago show support almost exclusively from people in California. So I don’t know why you would bother to point that out. |
Bob you are making a fool of yourself again. Here is the link to the document you just described: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pe2023SzWXxE8wYX5qWeoIw Any idiot can look at that document and see that the overwhelming majority of the donors are from (yes, you guessed it) California. So, what exactly is the point you’re trying to make, now that everything you said has been proved to be a complete fabrication? |