@1 – Because of the headline or because of something within the article? Because, frankly, I think the headline’s right re Prop 8.

I know that a LOT of members are, in effect, taking Steve Young’s position: that they have deeply-held feelings and choose not to discuss them in a political context. Head in the sand? Perhaps. But there’s no sense in getting contentious.

The more I see the anti-Prop 8 backlash, the more I recognize the concerns that in the future heteronormativity (thanks, T&S, for a new buzzword) may be labeled hate speech.

The church encouraged its members to vote for Colorado’s Amendment 2, and was certainly involved in it’s passage, but not nearly to the same extent as with Prop 8. Still, having observed the backlash in Colorado, LDS church leaders should not be surprised to witness the current events surrounding Prop 8′s passage.

How many of us commented in the thousands of Prop 8 bloggernacle posts that the Church couldn’t come out of this clean?

Nothing the activists do now will shock me. And it should’t shock any of you that supported Prop 8. I don’t see any way the Church comes out of this without looking bad.

Your assertion that African Americans accounted for Prop 8′s passage is unfounded, moron.

I think that most LDS people who are proud that the Mormon effort is what passed Prop 8 (seemed to be a higher number of people on Wednesday the 5th than it is now…) would agree with almost every word of the NYT article. California Mormons were proud of what they’d done, until they realized just how horrible the reaction was going to be when the gay rights activists started protesting.

I’ve spent a lot of time in the past week and a half reading and thinking about the aftermath of Prop 8 and I can’t help but think that the best thing for gay marriage, in the long run, might have been its passage. Now, all of the sudden, there is this massive and mobilizing movement, an its forcing people to think about gay marriage and civil rights in a way they wouldn’t have done had gay marriage continued on quietly in California. It may be polarizing, but it seems as though there are enough people, and crucially, enough people who are YOUNG, that will side with same-sex marriage. In the end, I think that what happened in California may only expedite the extension of marriage to include same-sex couples, if only because it gets people thinking and forces them to take a position.

I do think the church could have come out of this just fine, had we fought and lost. We could have made our moral stand, and accepted our defeat gracefully. But we won. I can’t think of any way in which that win was not a massive loss, not just in terms of PR, but even in terms of preventing gay marriage.

At the outset, I had mixed feelings about prop 8, because I don’t like the idea of a constitutional amendment. But I realize that the California Supreme Court has forced the issue by striking down comparable legislation that accomplished the same thing that this amendment accomplishes. And I do oppose gay marriage, though I don’t view it as an apocalyptic issue like many gay marriage opponents seem to.

That said, I’ve been absolutely appalled by the reaction to the passage of prop 8, especially since “inclusiveness” and “tolerance” are among the main arguments advanced in favor of gay marriage. In fact, the vehement reaction has pushed me off of my ambivalence.

In Democracy, you win some, and you lose some. It feels good to win, and it feels bad to lose, but you take what you can get and move on. The reaction of gay rights activists violates every sense I have of democratic fair play.

I am, therefore, proud to stand by my church and its leaders, and to stand against forces that I view as anti-Democratic for seeking to force their agenda on a populace that has spoken its will through the procedures that everybody agreed to and was happy with before gay marriage became an issue. And I should lose no opportunity to say so.

greefrog, if there are some others who disapprove of these protests, they’ve been pretty darn quiet about it.

You know, I opposed Prop 8 and actually had some sympathy for the GBLT community.

It’s worn pretty thin right about now.

It’s such a tiring task to contend with the notion that everyone who has a legitimate disagreement with Mormonism, is somehow reduced to a “Mormon hater” or that Mormons are so misunderstood, discriminated against or “persecuted” … My reason for not accepting the Mormonism is simple: I’ve never really felt Christian Love from Mormons, I have gone to LDS Church services many times, and everyone was very nice and polite, and certainly very “religious”, but if all I want is “religion” there are thousands of religions to choose from, and they are all very nice and polite … My search is to find the Lord, be transformed into the person God wants me to be, to have my very being changed into a person more capable of true love and compassion, to be more like Jesus Christ.
My experience with Mormons is actually very sad. Anyone can have a friendly relationship with Mormons if you keep your thoughts to yourself, if you simply agree with everything they say, if you never offer a different thought or idea and if you do not talk about the very real sorrows in the world like the global AIDS epidemic, world starvation, world famines or wars that are responsible for countless deaths. If you keep things very simple and shallow, just say “yes” a lot and never express an independent thought or idea you have the very best casual aquaintences you could ever hope to have. On the other hand, if you cross any of the lines I just mentioned, you will get a heavy dose of “how persecuted” Mormons feel, and “how no one really understand the LDS” but, what you never hear is: “we love you” or “how is your family?”, “how is your marriage?”, “can I pray with you?” “are you sad?”, “does your heart hurt?” … All of the experiences I have had with Mormons have been a series of LDS self-promotion, a religious “system” that if I work it correctly I can be right with God and eventually receive a Temple Recommend; unfortunately I’ve never been offered true compassion and care. I could join up with the LDS, I could go to church every Sunday, I could study the Book of Mormon, study the D&C, But, where can I go to be hugged, to be loved, to have anyone truly care about who I am and my sorrows, hopes and dreams. No one ever asked me about these things during my investigation into the LDS religion. Very sad, and I really think true Christianity would offer something deeper. ———- FC Joopiter call5000@yahoo.com

@11, here’s the analysis you requested.

Wikipedia says that 12,059,886 votes were cast on CA prop 8, with yeas outnumbering nays by 510,678.

CNN exit polls suggest that African-American turnout in CA represented 10% of voters as opposed to 7% in the last election cycle. That’s a 3% differential, or about 350,000 votes.

The same exit polls indicate that African-Americans voted 70% for Prop 8 (with African-American women at 75%).

Some (including a certain SacBee columnist) made the mistake of just multiplying 70% * 350,000 to get the contribution of AA voters to the passage of Prop 8, but of course the “offset” voters wouldn’t've been 100% against.

Let’s say those would have been 50/50 (almost mirroring the actual result). Then the real differential is (.7 – .5) = .2 * 350,000 or about 70,000 votes.

A similar analysis for Latino voters could push that into six figures.

So, you are correct to say that this doesn’t solely explain the passage of Prop 8. But the above analysis indicates that one-fifth of the deciding margin may have come from these voters. That’s not nothing, even if Nate Silver chooses to dismiss it out of hand.

The point I was trying to make is that the NYT article failed to mention this additional explanation, which I find relevant and thus irresponsible of the Times to omit.

I did say that this might have had as much to do with P8′s passage as LDS efforts. After looking at the numbers more closely, I’m a little less sure of that vs. when I originally posted. But I also suspect that the NYT is overstating the Church’s effect in order to serve its purpose.

Wikipedia’s list of polls (SurveyUSA, in particular) leading up to the ballot vote had it losing 47/50 – even up until the weekend before. A story in the SF Chronicle quoted a pollster who denied any sort of Bradley effect (i.e., people lying to pollsters) and instead blamed/credited churches with the seven point reversal in the outcome (47/50 to 52/48).

That’s a bit hard for me to swallow. I’m no pollster, bit I can imagine why people might have been reluctant to disclose their pro-8 preference over the phone. Many of us I suspect are going out of our way not to discuss it with co-workers these days. I’m not saying that P8 would definitely have passed without the involvement of churches including ours, but it’s not clear to me that it necessarily would have failed, either.

anyway, I’m spending too much time on this site. need to go read my scriptures instead :-<

I’d think that Cathlics, Southern Baptists, and the black population would be more inclined to vote the opposite of anything Mormons supported.

Joopiter, I’ve read enough online to conclude that it’s a pretty good bet that quite a few gays out there, in fact, really are “hatin” on Mormons.

Thanks for the link and am now convinced that the right to undisturbed heteronormativity is the key to winning again in 2010. Here’s to hoping y’all push that one hard. Forget the children, this is really what it’s all about. Run with it. Please.

This from the NYT article:

“On Oct. 28, Mr. Ashton, the grandson of the former Mormon president David O. McKay, donated $1 million. Mr. Ashton, who made his fortune as co-founder of the WordPerfect Corporation, said he was following his personal beliefs and the direction of the church.”

This from John Mansfield at M*:

“The article is informative for the most part, but since it’s only about the pro-8 campaign, you almost wouldn’t know there was an anti-8 campaign. In particular, how could they report Alan Ashton’s million dollar donation without mentioning that his old WordPerfect partner Bruce Bastian early donated a million dollars to oppose Prop. 8?”

Great Observation.

Here in TX a Const. Amendment banning gay marraige passed with 75% of the vote. If ever asked about prop 8 around here I will simply start bragging about “superior organization skills”.

I do honestly see Prop 8 as a net positive for the church. Lets not forget that 30 out of 30 states puttng gay marriage on the ballot turned out in favor of the Church’s position. Usually they pass by more then 60% like in Florida.

The issue is more complicated in deep blue places like CA. I suspect that long term church members will in part continue to leave CA partly because of persecution cause of P8 but mostly cause its to expensive there as it has been since the 1990′s. I welcome you to Mormon friendly TX.

Regarding my statement of “…if Proposition 8 had failed and all of the people on the heteronormative side started picketing businesses…” I’m not referring to the church as a business. This comment was born out of Time article queno posted in #23. I realized after my post it sounded like the church should be qualified as a business which I don’t think it should.

bbell,

Re: Comment #28: That’s a great point. It’s quite possible that we’re actually making more friends than enemies.