39 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
| Thursday, June 20, 2013 |
|
- A Bird's Eye View
- A Motley Vision
- Adventures in Mormonism
- Blognitive Dissonance
- Book of Mormon Blog
- By Common Consent
- Ethesis
- Face of the Other
- Faith Promoting Rumor
- Feminist Mormon Housewives
- Flooding the Earth With the Book of Mormon
- Golden Road to Samarqand
- Head Life
- Just Sayin'
- Juvenile Instructor
- Messanger & Advocate
- Millennial Star
- Mormon Matters
- Mormon Mommy Wars
- New Cool Thang
- Nine Moons
- Old Testament Blog
- Our Mother's Keeper
- Proud Daughter of Eve
- Segullah
- Sunstone Blog
- Times & Seasons
- Wheat and Tares
- Zelophehad's Daughters
Plus, it’s good for people to bear their testimonies since while bearing a testimony the spirit will whisper the truth of your words to you. Maybe that parent wouldn’t have gotten up there without the impetus of that child… |
Isn’t there a line here somewhere between allowing a child to express what is in his or her heart and forcing a kid up on the stand to say something programmed into them by their parents? No testimony should be coerced or demanded. A testimony should be a spontaneous expression from the heart. One of my favorite moments from testimony meeting long ago was when our bishop asked his own daughter to come up and bear her testimony. The daughter, still a teenager, walked up to the microphone and said, “I don’t feel like bearing my testimony today,” and walked back down to her seat in the congregation. |
Ron, |
Danithew – I agree that if it takes a child to get the parent up to the stand then great. I also agree with Ron that the parents who drag their kids up to the stand then whisper into their ears what they are to repeat are not doing anyone any favors. I love the story Ron shared. In my ward, for testimony meeting, 90% of the time is taken up by 6-7 individuals – always the same people each month. They rush the stand when the mic is open. Not sure how one should deal with this… |
I’ve heard that in many wards a letter was recently read, asking people to not have their children bear their testimonies in SM. Anyone know about this? |
I don’t think a parent should push a child to bear a testimony. Especially if the child is reluctant or resistant to doing so. To me that sounds counterproductive. I imagine a parent-child conversation could begin when the child sees other children bearing testimony. The child might want to imitate what he/she is seeing and have the same experience. I have no problem with that. I also suspect there could be a family home evening where parents teach children what a testimony is and teach them there are various ways to share a testimony. |
This post and the comments so far are right on the money. The only thing that I would add is the importance of stressing to children the definition of a testimony as opposed to what they may hear in testimony meeting: the thank-imony, the repent-imony, the travel-log-imony, the sermon-imony, etc. |
#5 Paula – We did have such a letter read to our ward. I can’t recall everything specifically but it basically suggested that you don’t let your children go up just to have fun speaking into the microphone and repeating the typical child’s testimony: “I’d like to bear my testimony, I know this church is true . . . “. I think that it didn’t discourage children who actually have an experience or some genuine thoughts to share those. It also asked that people who bear their testimonies frequently to not do it every month so that others have a chance. In our ward we have had a decrease in the amount of repetetive children’s testimony bearing but the people who always bear their testimony’s still always bear their testimony. |
One of our daughters is just now getting confident about saying prayers out loud and unassisted. We ask her to bless the food and she gives thanks for each and every member of our extended family and then closes without ever mentioning the food. It is pretty cool to hear her praying for aunts, uncles and cousins, some she barely knows. |
I’m fine with children bearing their testimonies, even if they are rehearsed, repetitive, silly, or discontinuous in nature. Really, are most of the adults who bear testimony much different? |
I won’t lie to you, I don’t think a kid should bear their testimony in F&T meeting until they no longer believe in Santa Claus. Until they have some degree of personal reasoning, they are just pleasing their parents and the audience, not expressing thier feelings. |
MAC (9): I’m very glad to hear your daughter doesn’t bless the food. She is way ahead of her time. I tend to agree with Porter Rockwell (11). I was in a ward several years ago where it was the monthly ritual at F&T meeting for about 15 kids to line up and then cycle through the podium, all saying almost the exact same thing. “I’d like to bear my testimony. I know this church is true. I love my mom and dad. ITNOJC, Amen.” Over and over. It was kind of ridiculous, and when visitors attended, pretty embarrassing. |
11. I say that if there is an error to be made, it should be made on the side of encouraging children to speak, testify, and practice. |
For over three years, children have been prohibited from taking the stand in my ward’s testimony meetings. It is a lamentable loss, and I think it has filtered up to the youth not feeling like the meeting is for them either. |
My daughter bore her testimony publicly for the first time this month (she’s 11, and it’s a requirement for her to complete her Faith in God award, to bear her testimony, although I don’t believe that it’s a requirement to do it in F&T meeting). At any rate, we didn’t know it was going to happen. It was great, and simple, and heartfelt, right up until the part she bore witness to false doctrine. |
I was in a ward several years ago where it was the monthly ritual at F&T meeting for about 15 kids to line up and then cycle through the podium, all saying almost the exact same thing. “I’d like to bear my testimony. I know this church is true. I love my mom and dad. ITNOJC, Amen.†Over and over. It was kind of ridiculous, and when visitors attended, pretty embarrassing. We have a family with a lot of children in our ward, and this is the standard every month. When people complain about it (and since our bishop is brand-new and hasn’t chosen to address this yet), I simply say that if everyone else got up and gave heartfelt testimonies, there wouldn’t be enough time for the crazies or the rote… |
The last ward we were in had a statement printed in the F&T program that bascially said children should not bear their testimonies during F&T, that there were more appropriate times such as FHE and primary. |
Perhaps sharing time on Fast Sundays should be devoted to allowing the children to bear testimony. Anyone in Primary have an opinion on this? |
We could all just limit sharing our testimony to at home with our family, but the ward testimony meeting is still there to do those things together as a congregation. |
I think that queuno has the right idea: there already (potentially) exists a self-correcting mechanism in every single ward–no policy is need if members of the ward take the opportunity to bear meaningful testimony. If there are children scattered in amongst those, then so be it. The problems described above don’t exist unless the meaning gets “hijacked” by, uhh, children. If that is really happening, the problem surely does not rest on kids’ shoulders. |
When my children bear their testimonies in F&T, I spank them. I’ve told them time and time again that they can’t bear their testimonies, but they just won’t listen, and month after month, up we go. If spanking doesn’t work, I’ll have to stop bringing them to church altogether. |
If you (be honest) witnessed this behavior in a different religion or culture wouldn’t your first (or many second) thought be “cult brainwashing” (or equivalent words)? [Perhaps only those that have seen Jesus Camp should answer] |
When my children bear their testimonies in F&T, I spank them. I’ve told them time and time again that they can’t bear their testimonies, but they just won’t listen, and month after month, up we go. If spanking doesn’t work, I’ll have to stop bringing them to church altogether. Can we nominate this comment for an award of some sort? |
I’ve never before seen the acronym ITNOJC. Interesting. |
I think that queuno has the right idea: there already (potentially) exists a self-correcting mechanism in every single ward–no policy is need if members of the ward take the opportunity to bear meaningful testimony. If there are children scattered in amongst those, then so be it. The problems described above don’t exist unless the meaning gets “hijacked†by, uhh, children. If that is really happening, the problem surely does not rest on kids’ shoulders. Which is worse? The children, or the adult ward member who has prepared a talk for F&T meeting, complete with all of the things we shouldn’t be including? |
RE #18 I was Primary president 14 years ago, and on F&T day, we left the closing part of the meeting for testimonies. They were amazing, powerful, thought out, not rote, and obviously less intimidated than in F&T meeting. It was often the best time of the month, a time when the Holy Ghost was take-your-breath-away strong. I think the fact that I started out every time with the brief outline of what a testimony is and isn’t, and a reminder than reverence has nothing to do with folded arms, but it’s a feeling, so don’t spoil it for others, made a big difference. I’m Primary pres again (along with 3 other callings; sigh) and I’m dismayed to see that the manual forbids testimony bearing by anyone not giving an assigned talk in Primary. It feels like a loss. |
If children are vainly repetitious, what do we do about folks who stand up and don’t get half a word out without uncontrollably bawling. Or standing and saying “my heart is so full”, “tender mercies”, “I don’t really know why I’m up here”, or “this has been a very hard (insert period of time reference) for me”. Although “tender mercies” isn’t so bad because it makes me think of Chicken McNuggets. I had one of my newly baptized investigators get up in F&T meeting and give a Rameumptum prayer. Awkward for some, but luckily the ward in general had a sense of humor and mostly appreciated the effort, where I didn’t hear the end of it. I told some members that I was disappointed that he didn’t pray to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. |
One of the kids in our ward (probably 3 years old at the time) started to bear his testimony. He said something wrong which prompted some laughter from the congregation – he gave the most evil look and said “that is not funny, you do not know funny..” It was hilarious. Gotta love kids. We usually get lots of clapping from kids after a nice musical number too – one or two start and the rest of the kids join in. |
25.
See my comment #10. |
Thanks, Scott. I guess I missed your comment in the refreshes. We once had a GA called out of ward. On one of his trips “back home”, he stood up in priesthood and ripped (justifiably) the priesthood holders for allowing the F&T meeting to go overtime, to allow mindless ranting, etc. His counsel was that parents had the responsibility to make sure their family members didn’t stand up with 5 minutes to go, that family members understood the point of F&T, etc. |
#26 deb – Manuals were made to be broken 8-) |
I remember once a number of years ago, that a little girl went up to the pulpit alone, and without a hint of hesitation, bore an articulate and sincere testimony. Then she paused for not more than three or four seconds. Perhaps contemplating her next sentence. Perhaps pausing to draw the audience in for her conclusion. Perhaps receiving revelation from the Spirit. Or maybe she was just drawing a breath. In any event, we’ll never know how she would have concluded her testimony, because a counselor in the bishopric somehow interpreted the brief pause to mean that she was floundering and in need of rescue. He jumped up and whispered in her ear, “I’m thankful for my mother and father…” |
>The last ward we were in had a statement printed in the F&T program I haven’t seen the handbook in a couple of years, but I believe this is a quotation from (or at the least the sense of) the CHI. |
queuno (#15), would you be willing to tell the rest of the story? What false doctrine was it? |
#26 Deb – Having been released from Primary somewhat recently, I was going to mention this little fact myself but got busy before I could post. The way I interpret the counsel in the handbook about F&T meetings in Primary is that we really want our children to know (1) that bearing a testimony is not a requirement for being LDS, (2) that it’s not just a fun time to get up on the stand (whether in front of children or adults), and (3) to really understand what the phrase “I have a testimony…” really means. In 11, Porter Rockwell said kids shouldn’t be bearing their testimonies “until they no longer believe in Santa Claus” and I’m inclined to agree. I believe that small children can and do feel the Spirit but their ability to know the truthfulness of what they feel is, in my opinion, lacking until they’re a little older. Most 6 and 7-year-olds don’t understand the concept of an hour no less what a Prophet is! I don’t mind the occasional F&T meeting in Senior Primary but I think it’s a waste of time in Junior. #13 Scott – I don’t think we need to worry about young children taking the sacrament because it’s less about “knowing” than bearing a testimony is. Taking the sacrament is, in my opinion, a very personal thing while bearing your testimony is very public. Apples and oranges. On a related note- I hate F&T meetings in RS. Yuck! I don’t know if the Priesthood does this on F&T Sundays but it happens somewhat regularly in RS and it drives me crazy. I understand some people may be shy but the weeping and carrying on is even worse in a room full of women than it is in Sacrament Meeting. I’ve personally been known to cry a bit on the stand (I’m also not a big fan of this myself) but I try to keep my testimonies short and to the point. There’s a great conference talk somewhere I’m too lazy to look for at the moment about what a testimony is and is not. I wish more people would follow it! |
I believe the the statement reads that children that can not bear their testimonies without assistance should not get up in Fast and Testimony meetings. I wish I had realized that the day my 9 year old wanted to get up and I told him children were not supposed to. He has not wanted to get up since, and that was over a year ago. In the case of the child who gets up and then freezes up, the parent coming up and bearing their own testimony sounds like a wonderful solution as opposed to feeding the child words to speak. |
I love the testimony part of Relief Society, although it rarely happens anymore. I think it’s a place where women can say what they can’t say in a regular meeting, where hearts meet. I don’t enjoy kids bearing their testimonies, for the most part. I find it annoying. Why do we need to indulge our kids that much? I seldom hear kids actually bearing testimony; they’re reciting. Kids in China do the same thing about Chairman Mao. We had a kid in our ward who used to scare the crap out of his parents when he got up because he was so honest. He would speak from his heart and everybody but his family loved his testimonies. Sometimes he cried, sometimes not. Today he’s a fine young man with a fine family. My daughter, as well, used to embarrass because of the crazy (to us) things she said. Where’s your ward, Devyn? My ward is so stick up their butt about stuff, I need a break. I’ve pondered the sobbing testimonies. They talk about how happy they are while looking completely miserable. I only cried once, and that was after James died and I’d attended a ward in Washington state which would have been his ward. I was talking about how good it felt to be among the saints and my emotions got the best of me. Kids bearing testimonies gets my thumbs down. |
queuno (#15), would you be willing to tell the rest of the story? What false doctrine was it? Basically, my daughter bore her testimony of the fact that she knew that everyone (said with emphasis) would be together again the Celestial Kingdom. I think she felt some internal pressure to go for the dramatic, detail-filled testimony. I know that she understands the PoS (as well as an 11-year-old can) and knows the differences between the Kingdoms, but in her effort to sound impressive, she botched what she wanted to say. |
I am really struggling with the no kids thing in our ward. I have an 11 year old and she not only had never born her testimony in Sacrament Meeting, she has been expressly forbidden from doing so. Our ward has a strict “no one under 12″ policy. Of course none of our youth ever get up either so not many under 12 have seen kids near their age bear anything either. I’m also struggling with the continual reminders that our testimonies should not include any personal stories or experiences at all. I’m not exaggerating here, we are encouraged before each testimony meeting with reminders from the Bishopric not to say anything other than “I know”, “I testify” or “I believe” sort of statements. I find it ironic that the reason being given for the kids to not get up at all is to avoid the vain repetition sounding testimonies and yet I’m being told I should basically say “I know the Church is True, I believe the Book Of Mormon, ITNJC, Amen” Here is our May Bishopric Message from our ward newsletter: PURE TESTIMONY Some have followed this counsel willingly and with valor. Some have had a more difficult time for various reasons. Some have not understood or accepted the counsel. I fear that there are some who worry that they may say the wrong thing and question In October Conference of 2004 Elder M. Russell Ballard said, “Our testimony meetings need to be more centered on the Savior, the doctrines of the gospel, the blessings of the Restoration, and the teachings of the scriptures. We need to replace stories, travelogues, and lectures with pure testimoniesâ€. If one simply stood and shared with the congregation What many may secretly fear is that they will be saying pretty much the same thing all members who bore their testimonies prior to them said. If they do not add some “flair†(a story or experience) they will be viewed as unimaginative and uninteresting. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact one of the key purposes of testimony meeting is to feel the spirit and the Lord has said that where two or three are gathered together in His name there will He be also. If we all were able to stand a bear similar testimony of our Elder Ballard goes on to say that “To bear testimony is “to bear witness by the power of the Holy Ghost; to make a solemn declaration of truth based on personal knowledge or May I offer a few suggestions for the bearing of testimonies in testimony meeting: I love you brothers and sisters. I marvel at your goodness and light. It is a pleasure to serve you and I desire all the best for you and your families. It is my prayer that we will continue to love, serve and edify one another. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. I agree with the theory behind this in many ways but find it really difficult to bear my testimony in our ward now. |
