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Wow– great post! I think you’re right on, Ellsworth. One of my favorite lines:
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I have to say that monogamous marriage has not been the norm among a significant number of my colleagues, and pornography has been common in most places I’ve worked. For those not interested in working in such an environment, consider becoming an economist. During 14 years in the private sector and 11 years in the government, pornography (and discussions thereof) has been entirely absent from my workplaces. No married colleague within two degrees of separation from me has ever been openly unfaithful to their spouse or even generated any rumors to that effect. I can think of only two colleagues who got divorced during the time I worked with them. (Perhaps I should add that my colleagues are and have always been overwhelmingly liberal Democrats). Maybe people just change the subject when they see me coming, but I don’t think so. So do not despair. There is a “world” out there, however constricted, that is much brighter than the one Dan has encountered. |
Dan, I think the theme of your post is about judging people. A side theme may be about whether people can remain “decent, kind, intelligent, well-adjusted, caring people” while engaging in serious sin. And in that case, I’d say you are, or were, overly judgemental in your previous view about “fundamentally screwed up and have really severe problems with reality and relationships” type of people. Do messed-up people turn to porn (or alcohol) or does porn (or alcohol) make you messed-up? Both. Satan has been dressing up serious sin as sophisticated and “new and improved” and “no longer harmful” for millenia. The slogan “It’s okay, the ‘cool’ people are doing it now” has been around a long time. Although that was not your main point, you appeared to step into that territory. It may take longer for dressed-up porn (now called “erotica”) to have the deleterious effects, just like you have to smoke more filtered cigarrettes to get the same effect as unfiltered cigarrettes. Cigarettes were once touted as “good for your digestion”. That sounds awfully similar to “erotica is good for couples with sexual dysfunction.” And it sounds similar to “a drink or two helps me unwind after work.” I remember when Oprah first went nationally syndicated. Her show originally was more along the Jerry Springer style, focusing on outrageous and sleazy topics and “fundamentally-screwed up people.” After some years (not that long ago really), she made a transition to more uplifting types of shows. Good for her. And I agree that she has often been a force for good, educating her viewers, etc. She’s brought many problems to light, things that more people need to be aware of. But in some cases, she only shows the superficial level, or doesn’t give the whole story. And in the case of porn and open marriage, she probably hasn’t shown the long-term effects. (I only catch a few minutes of her every few months as I flip through channels, or see teasers in commercials.) She’s still at a superficial “oh, isn’t this interesting, look at the nice people who are doing this” stage. Let’s remember, she’s more of an entertainer than a documentary maker. (Like Rush Limbaugh I suppose.) Check back with your open-marriage friends in five years to see who is still married, and what effect it has or had on their children. Check back to see who got one of the incurable STDs and gave it to their spouse. If one of your points is that we shouldn’t judge people, fine. We shouldn’t have been judging the “fundamentally screwed up and have really severe problems with reality and relationships” people in the first place. If one of your points is that we need to be less critical and more tolerant of serious sin because “decent, kind, intelligent, well-adjusted, caring people” are doing it, then no, you’re wrong. I kind of like Oprah too. (We both live in Indiana.) But I see her has an entertainer and social commenter. She’s has her right to free-speech and to have her say. She’s not a true researcher, she’s not unbiased, and she doesn’t do impartial or scientific documentaries. I don’t think she should be looked at as an authority. |
LL (2), Bookslinger (3), A side theme may be about whether people can remain “decent, kind, intelligent, well-adjusted, caring people” while engaging in serious sin. And in that case, I’d say you are, or were, overly judgmental in your previous view about “fundamentally screwed up and have really severe problems with reality and relationships” type of people. This is true; I think I had the standard image from Conference talks and such, where a guy carries a lifelong porn addiction and ruins his family, career, etc. over it. It was jarring for me to see that regular, good people of both genders are using it without any apparent psychodrama. I do think it’s important to teach our own people the fact that these things are sinful, but it’s also important to not deal in unhelpful caricatures, and it’s important to not take adversarial stances towards decent people who do not have our understanding. |
I had no idea that Mormons were criticizing Oprah. I agree with you that she does a lot of good, some educating, and some entertainment. I cannot say how pervasive porn is. I am a teacher, and like LL, I suppose, it tends not to be a topic of discussion at our workplace. Although I have lots of non-member friends, I suppose it would surprise me if porn became normalized enough to surface in conversation. That said, Oprah certainly has topics that break that barrier, and I say: if you don’t want to hear it, don’t watch her; come back for her Favorite Things episode and revel in consumerism with the rest of the US. |
I hadn’t heard any Mormons criticizing Oprah either. I have also not been in an environment like Dan described with open relationships or any of that other stuff. The one open relationship that I was aware of ended up in divorce shortly after their “open relationship” clause came into effect. The divorce was not because of their open relationship rather the decision to have an open relationship was because they were on the verge of divorce. I’m really curious about what kind of work Dan does and where geographically he is located. |
I am an Oprah criticizer, but not because she does not conform to my worldview. I think most of her shows are vague and wishy-washy, unless Suze Orman is on. I think Oprah does many great things for many people, as much as she can with the knowledge she has. I respect her for her acheivements and stature, especially considering her origins. She did a show about motherhood that rubbed me wrong. Motherhood was largely a four-letter word on the show. Another show was centered on spirituality, and I thought it was interesting and probably helpful for some, but rather nebulous. Some good blurbs came from it, though. All in all, O is mostly harmless. I think she should be praised for a lot of her work and life as an example of a “self-actualized” individual. |
#6, that’s an interesting way to get in an anti-mormon link. |
Dan, (sorry, had other things to do for a while), back to the point about judging people. Erroneous judging isn’t only when we wrongly judge or assume something to be negative. Erroneous (and sometimes even unrighteous) judging can also be when we wrongly judge (or assume or trust) something to be positive when it isn’t. Just because someone is “decent, kind, intelligent, well-adjusted, caring people” on the outside, doesn’t mean everything they do is hunky-dory, or that they don’t have some grave problem on the inside. For example, some of the most upstanding and well-respected men in society, and even in the church, are wife-abusers/wife-beaters within the home. |
nasamomdele–I have only ever seen O speak in glowing terms about motherhood. She almost never fails to say that moms have the hardest job in the world. Bookslinger–do you really belive your last statement? |
The anti-mormon link is no more… Ian (6), I’m located in Virginia, but I have worked in several locations in the U.S. and overseas. Bookslinger (9), I do think that all of the behaviors I mentioned are wrong, and are symptoms of a false concept of sexuality and/or marriage. But if I were not a member of the Church, I don’t know if I would feel this way; I can see how easy it would be to abstract these things out and take different approaches in the absence of my faith. Without the Gospel, I might be much worse in my approaches to sexuality, and for that reason, I try not to judge people harshly when they don’t have the light and understanding on these issues that I have. For example, some of the most upstanding and well-respected men in society, and even in the church, are wife-abusers/wife-beaters within the home. This is true, and I would much rather associate with one of my good, decent friends who uses porn from time to time than someone whose wife or children live in fear of abuse or ridicule every day. I think the “sin next to murder” phrase is an unfortunate one- I reject the idea that a child abuser commits less sin than a couple of young people who go a little too far on prom night. That phrase in the BoM has a way of distorting our sense of proportion, I think. |
Bookslinger–do you really belive your last statement? If you mean where I wrote: For example, some of the most upstanding and well-respected men in society, and even in the church, are wife-abusers/wife-beaters within the home. Then, yes, I _know_ it to be true. I would clarify that not all abuse takes the form of physical beating. Sometimes, mental or emotional cruelty can be more terrible and more harmful to the psyche and soul than physical harm. At least with a physical bruise, a victim can show someone else that something’s wrong. With emotional/psychological cruelty, the phrase “daddy is mean” or “my husband yells at me” most often doesn’t elicit the help that’s needed. |
#10 ESO, That’s partly what I mean- Motherhood is the hardest job in the world. Why would someone say that? I may simply be ill-informed, but for those who choose motherhood, it is a life, not a job. It encompasses shuttling kids just as much as it encompasses having a respectable wardrobe or having spa time. The statement “motherhood is the hardest job in the world” may be a form of praise, but it is also denotes that motherhood is 1) a job or agglomeration of tasks, and 2) that motherhood is some caste of society, not to be mingled with such castes as “woman” or “professional”, for example. “Moms” are entirely separate. I reject that notion outright. To me, mothers can be all those things and then some, the capstone of female existence. At least one of the many gender roles associated with the female gender is included in being a mother, while sometimes all roles are. But I digress. Oprah simply has a different perspective, and with this issue and many others, I think she perpetuates problematic societal views. Not entirely her fault and I don’t demonize her for it. Like I said, she’s mostly harmless, does good things, and provides folks everywhere with some beneficial afternoon entertainment. |
I don’t know that I’d excuse it as “harmless”. People follow her like she’s the Pied Piper. |
I’m so sick of Oprah and her preaching. I don’t mind being preached at once in awhile, but my heck, she wears me out with all the self improvement advice. I think she’s a bit full of herself. |
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