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Do you want to talk about the actual terrible situation with this family or the death threats? Its easy to agree that there is no place for death threats in our society. |
Death threats are, of course, wrong. On the other hand, there are so many couples out there desperate to have children, who try so hard and go through so much… The injustice must seem a bit much. I can see where they’d snap. |
“I don’t know what’s happened with America…” So much DRAMA. |
“The injustice must seem a bit much.” What injustice? That they can’t have kids? Unless the octuplet Mom kicked the infertile couple in their special places, their anger would seem to be severely misplaced. |
Death threats? Well, that’s extreme. But the stupidity and irresponsibility of this ‘mother’ is mind boggling and I can understand why there is so much outrage directed at her. To learn that she paid for her IVF with state disability (too disabled to sit at a computer but not too disability to have pregnancy after pregnancy, huh?), that she’s receiving welfare, that she has no job, that her mother declared bankruptcy and is actually caring/supporting all the children, was stupid enough to have more children with zero means of supporting them either financially or emotionally, that she was spotted out and about shopping for a Wii, that she lied about receiving welfare, that she lied about having plastic surgery, that she lied about trying to emulate Angelina Jolie… What the he*l??? Is the anger justified? Absolutely! Death threats? Well, I can’t justify that. Her PR team did a horrible injustice representing her. I’m a PR manager for a large company and, trust me on this one, they’ll be the topics of future PR seminars on how not to run a PR campaign. DISASTER. |
I don’t get the outrage. The woman didn’t go in trying to have eight babies. When she found out there were eight embryos, she decided not to abort any of them. Is she misguided? Probably. So what. Some idiot lobbyist or congressWOMAN will now introduce legislation to stop this from happening again–yet another hoop for the ‘infertile couple’ to jump through. Are we now going to police all welfare recipients? Is that practical/possible? Can anyone who has directed outrage toward this woman demonstrate how their life has been negatively affected by this woman shopping for and perhaps even BUYING a Wii? Show me any person on federal welfare, and I will show you at least some level of abuse of the system. She has done nothing to warrant death threats, outrage, hostility, annoyance, or even attention. |
I agree with $5. This is the craziest thing ever. Its like a episode of what not to do with your life. I think its possible that the state may need to step in. |
Why did she have ANY additional embryos implanted in her when she already had 6 kids she had absolutely no means of supporting? THAT is the problem. I’ve done IVF and I had to BEG my embryologist to implant TWO embryos– and I had a job, medical insurance, and a spouse. There should ABSOLUTELY be legislation surrounding IVF procedures. I’m being negatively effected because 1) I’m a California taxpayer and am helping foot the bill; and 2) I’m a Kaiser member and whatever the State of California doesn’t pick up, the Kaiser members will. Nate C: I think you’re part of that 1% of Americans who are defending this narcissist. |
and Nate C: WTH is up with your congressWOMAN remark?????????? |
There are lots of crazy or imbicilic people out there. People in the media who get a lot of attention attract the crazies. I wouldn’t draw too many inferences from it. |
Let her deal with her own decisions. And killing her obviously isn’t going to help anything. Then there will just be a lot of kids running around without a mom. |
I’m not defending anyone. I’m condemning the ‘outrage’ of the 99% (as you say) towards the decisions of a woman that has zero effect on their lives. If you want to feel outrage towards something that actually will affect you, there are plenty of real options out there. As far as congresswoman, I’m just calling my shot. Legislation will result from this and it will come from a female. |
Nate: What a crazy and sexist and presumptious remark. Hmmm… Bizarre. And if this woman could actually raise 14 children on her own, without the support of taxpayers, then I would leave it alone. Actually, I haven’t made death threats but I have had plenty of chats about it with my coworkers around the watercooler. This decision doesn’t just affect her– it affects tax payers, charities, possibly CPS who may take her children away, her neighbors and, most of all, the poor victims (her children) who need to be parented so that they may some day lead healthy and productive lives (hopefully). What about them??? If this were only a personal choice issue. But it’s not. And hence the outrage and incredulity (sp?) of the general public. It’s also a health issue and legislation against this craziness prevents this from happening again. |
Lulubelle, Did her decision raise our taxes or something? Do we get a smaller slice of the pie? Basically, she’s probably made an unwise decision, but I would say abortion is an unwise decision in many cases and people would tell me to respect the right to privacy. So respect hers. You have no place saying who should have kids and how many. I’m sure you feel justified in your pessimism, but this is definitely a case where people are getting way to far into this woman’s life. |
How do you know that she can’t raise the children on her own? You don’t. But let’s assume that she will need Gov’t assistance and she works the system enough to weasel 3k/month for 18 years. What will this cost 37 million Californians? About a penny a year. Actually much less because of taxation of Corporations and lots of other factors–but we’ll say worst case scenario is a penny a year. When was the last time you many chats around the watercooler about a lost penny? The $ isn’t the issue. If everyone started having, octoplets, would it become a drain on the economy? Sure. But that isn’t happening–nor will it. She made a choice you disagree with. I’m sure it hits especially close to home because of your previous experience with IVF–I can’t imagine how difficult that must be for you. I’m just looking at this from a perspective of what should a society do about this, if anything? My point is that we as a society have got to stop trying to police the decisions of others that don’t have an effect on our society. We don’t know what’s going on in her head. Maybe an angel came and commanded her to have eight more children and provided the way through an apparently relaxed Doc ;-). Ask the ‘victims’ in 18 years if they are okay with their Mom’s decision not to abort them. If you want to talk about abuse of the system, fine. That’s a conversation we all need to have–but this woman is not the example. |
This woman has invited the public into her life. Did she not go on national TV to talk to the media? Did she not set up a web site asking the public donations? It is irrelevant if our taxes are BEING RAISED to pay for her babies because MY TAXES ARE NONETHELESS paying for nearly ALL of their care (estimated $1.5 million to $2 million before they even leave the hospital + welfare, WIC, medical, disability). My taxes also paid for her IVF treatments. This is NOT a woman who accidentally became pregnant and decided not to abort. JUST THE OPPOSITE– she took taxpayer money to spend $100,000 on IVF treatments (her statement) to PAY TO HAVE 8+ embryos (IVF doctors dispute her claim that she had 6 embryos implanted but 2 split, giving her 8 babies as basically impossible) inserted into her womb. SHE DID THIS ON PURPOSE with ABSOLUTELY ZERO means of supporting her children without TAXPAYER dollars (and as a Calif taxpayer, that’s ME). This at a time where California is almost imploding from debt, double digit (and growing) inflation, California tax increases (which will affect my family to the tune of about $3,000 PER YEAR), and basically a public that is scared of the future and the economy and scaling back because of the uncertainty. The hutzpah of this woman is astounding. If, on the other hand, SHE COULD AFFORD HER BABIES ON HER OWN AND DIDN’T GO ON NATIONAL TV TO TALK AND THE INTERNET TO ASK FOR MONEY, then I wouldn’t care a bit. She invited the public into her life and, hence, the public outrage. Well deserved. This woman needs to be institionalized and her poor children taken into protective custody. |
Oh… and unemployment in California growing at an alarming rate. Nate C: Do you have 14 children under the age of 8 years old? And with special needs? Plus 8 children in diapers? Do you think that ONE PERSON can do this ALONE? And if she can’t (and it’s IMPOSSIBLE– even if she required ZERO sleep), how much money do you think that fulltime nannies (multiple needed– even with California daycare, it is a requirement for there to be minimum of 1/5 ratio of caregiver to un-pottty-trained children) around the clock would cost? Oh, and since she has NO JOB, who do you think is going to pay for that??? |
No, I do not have 14 children under 8 years old. I did have my first child while I was still in school with no job. Some would question that decision. I didn’t have enough $ to pay for college so I asked for assistance from the Gov’t and received it. I accrued massive debt. I dropped out because my path led me toward small business ownership. Some would question that decision. We had our second child without health insurance coverage while I was trying to start my own business. Some would question that decision. When my first business failed, I lost everything. I had nowhere to go. I asked my Bishop for assistance and received it–without reservation. For a three month period, I had virtually zero income. I took my wife to the movies once. And I bought my daughter a birthday present. The $ could gave gone towards bills. Some would question those decisions. And if I could go back, there is nothing I could change. Those experiences came from my decisions. They have made me what I am. Are we not all beggars? |
Frankly, I’m more concerned about my tax dollars going to prop up the banana republic on our west coast, than I am about Angelina II. And I blame Prop 8 for it. All of it. Because it’s obviously Prop 8′s fault. |
Lulubelle, You know best. |
What will this cost 37 million Californians? About a penny a year. Those who have been paying attention are probably aware that at this point, every fraction of a penny counts in the CA budget. |
THREADJACK ALERT: I’m surprised to be the first person to mention this, but I understand there’s a large group of jobless couples that has no imtention of seeking immediate employment-in fact the wife won’t work under any circumstance- but these couples still insist on having multiple children and finance their families by manipulating the welfare system: Married Mormon Grad students. So, if this woman wants to earn our approval for her strange behaviour all she has to do is enroll in her nearest college. (I’m not sure she even has to enroll in a grad program.). Then, we can welcome her into our club. The death threats are appalling. She clearly needs help and, more importantly, her kids needs lots of help and care. Is anyone aware of any charities or fundraisers to help the kids. It would be easy to set up a trust for the benefit of the kids that would be able to limit the crazy Mom any access to the trust. |
THREADJACK ALERT: I’m surprised to be the first person to mention this, but I understand there’s a large group of jobless couples that has no imtention of seeking immediate employment-in fact the wife won’t work under any circumstance- but these couples still insist on having multiple children and finance their families by manipulating the welfare system: Married Mormon Grad students. So, if this woman wants to earn our approval for her strange behaviour all she has to do is enroll in her nearest college. (I’m not sure she even has to enroll in a grad program.). Then, we can welcome her into our club. The death threats are appalling. She clearly needs help and, more importantly, her kids need lots of help and care. Is anyone aware of any charities or fundraisers to help the kids. It would be easy to set up a trust for the benefit of the kids that would be able to limit the crazy Mom any access to the trust. |
rbc: Your post is actually quite funny. 750-something posts on another thread here analyzes that very topic. Some very strong opinions over there. As for a fundraiser for the kids in a trust… I think there is too much concern shared by too many Americans that any money used that allows this very irresponsible, pathologic lying, narcissistic ‘mother’ the freedom to raise these kids is problematic in and of itself. I doubt a trust would raise much money. As it stands, TLC just announced that they would not pursue a reality TV show with her, her former publicists dropped her, and the Christian agency declined to represent her. Also, reports are today that the 3-bedroom home Nadya was sharing with her mom has gone into foreclosure and they have a few weeks to come up with some $24,000 in back mortgage payments or it’s going up for auction. No mortgage payments have been made on that house in about 10 months. What happens to those poor little victims, I have no idea, but I wouldn’t be surprised if CPS steps in. I think the kids are in imminent danger. |
Lulubelle, You do realize that a fund could be created in the children’s name that the mother (obviously the spawn of hell) nor the children could touch until the children were of a reasonable age, right? Care to do or say anything productive here? |
Nasamomdele: You do realize that these babies need support NOW, not when they’re, say, 18 years old, right? And not sure there are more than a handful of people out there (you being one of them, obviously) who are going to give this ‘mother’ much $$ considering she has already exhibited wildly poor decision-making ability. |
Here you go, Nasamomdele. You can donate to the almost homeless proud mom of 14 by visiting her web site at http://www.thenadyasulemanfamily.com/ Home of octuplets’ grandmother in default LOS ANGELES – Property records showed the house where the Southern California woman who gave birth to octuplets lives was under threat of foreclosure. Los Angeles County property records indicated the house was in mortgage default on Feb. 9. The home in Whittier is owned by Angela Suleman, the mother of octuplets mom Nadya Suleman. Nadya Suleman has lived in the three-bedroom home with her six other children. The default notice showed Angela Suleman was $23,225 behind in her mortgage payments and that the house could be sold at auction beginning May 5. Angela Suleman’s phone was disconnected and she could not be immediately reached for comment. Her daughter has been under public scrutiny since giving birth on Jan. 26. In an exclusive interview with TODAY’s Ann Curry, Nadya Suleman, 33, said she intended to use student loans to “temporarily” care for her 14 children. Published reports said that Suleman was receiving at least two forms of public assistance. All of Suleman’s children are under the age of 8, and she now has 10 children under the age of 2. According to The Los Angeles Times, three of her older children have disabilities and receive Supplemental Security Income. In addition, Suleman reportedly receives $490 a month in food stamps from the state of California. |
“What happens to those poor little victims”?… They live their lives. “I have no idea”… Neither does anybody else. “but I wouldn’t be surprised if CPS steps in.”… This is their job. They will assess the situation. “I think the kids are in imminent danger.” You aren’t helping these kids. You are helping to publicly crucify their mother. I hope it doesn’t push her over the edge. If she wasn’t crazy before, I bet this could push her over the edge (and then you can all say I told you so). I hope that this Mom (whether she be confused, greedy, depressed, unstable, immature, normal, sadistic, etc.) finds a way to make her life work–just as many of us have done. If people choose to help her, then let them decide for themselves what they are willing and able to do. They will not be worse off for doing it. I will also say (bringing this back on topic) that the degree of hostility between those who kill, those who threaten to kill and those who simply express their outrage without bodily harm to others isn’t as large as the mere outrage expressers may want to think. I would argue that many within each group could feel equal levels of outrage. The difference is that only the crazy people will actually call (or email, apparently) and threaten to kill people. And only the super crazies follow through on those threats. I would guess that many people hated JFK to the degree that Lee Harvey Oswald did, they just weren’t disturbed enough to actually kill over it. Most people just aren’t that kind of crazy. So don’t be getting all up on your high horse because you wouldn’t ever call to threaten death to someone. The crazies may not be any more outraged than you are. You’re just sane. Congratulations. |
Bad Economy is showing their effects on the people and this one is another example of that. People now want that they should have their fair share. But that was the will of god not of her … isn’t ? |
Interesting back and forth here. rbc had the funniest comment – you forgot to mention that she would need to join the Church and go to grad school to be accepted… Overall this is a sad situation, as it will be very challenging for this mother to raise her kids without significant help from someone and it will be challenging for the kids to grow up normally in the current environment they are in. They are going to need a lot of blessings and a lot of luck - |
Frankly, I’m glad she’s getting public assistance. My tax dollars are well spent if they go to her and those children. In my mind, Christian people don’t ever throw others under the bus. |
I think we need to be very careful about giving this woman any form of public assistance whatsoever. That would be like putting society’s stamp of approval on her decisions, and it would undermine the traditional family. Sure, it would suck for the kids, but that is is simply the price that must be paid. We must teach the ideal, not the exception. |
re:32 Are you channeling the Bloggernacle’s latest hero, Rodney Turner? What would Brother Turner think about this situation? |
rbc, We must recognize what this woman has done for what it is — a perverse so-called “lifestyle” choice. It is quite appalling to me to see that some would have us ratify that choice with public funds and approval. How on earth are those kids ever going to learn their proper gender roles? It never ceases to amaze me how controversial it is to assert simple gospel principles in the bloggernacle. |
Multiple births have gotten the public’s attention over the last few years; have generated money, houses, TV shows and interviews for these families is what has fueled the desire in this woman to have so many kids. 14 kids under 7!!!!! I feel badly for her, the kids and especially Grandma. The bad guys here is the Dr. Grandmother warned him, he knew how many kids she already had. Could he not refused to implant the remaining embryos? Is this all such new science that there are not any ethics that must be followed? |
Mark, |
Nate, you asked what injustice. There is no justice in this world. I know it. I’m sure many of us know it. But it’s one thing to know it and another thing to have such an egregious example hit you in the face. So many people are breaking their hearts and their banks on infertility treatments that fail or on adoptions that take years, some of which then fall through. I wanted to have at least two kids by now. I wanted to be working on number three. But only in the last year have we had an income. We are still heavily dependant on the (wonderful, blessed) support of our families. So we’re taking the careful, responsible route and waiting. And while my years of best fertility are already behind me and the others fly far too fast through my fingers… here comes this crazy girl who has no partner and no money. She’s selfish and thoughtless and no doctor should have ever given her one child, let alone the fourteen she’s got now. Life isn’t fair. God — who is presumably sending these spirits into that situation — is not fair*. Sending death threats is wrong. Allowing yourself to be that envious is wrong. But I know why someone would feel broken enough to make do so anyway. *For the definition of “Why can’t I have what she has?” Obviously, God IS fair by His definition and from the long view. It’s just that that’s not much comfort. |
PDoE, There may have been an injustice. I don’t know. I DO know that there was no injustice committed directly towards you or anyone else that isn’t living in that house. It’s not like the woman was sitting around thinking, “how can I slap the face of all those women who struggle to have children…” People may choose to take it as a slap in the face, but that wasn’t the intent. Would you get equally upset if a guy parked his red Ferrari in front of your place of business? How inconsiderate of him. Shouldn’t he know how we’ve all been struggling to makes ends meet? And he just chooses to throw it in our faces like this. What if he had parked illegally? Should that make you more offended? What if you knew that the Ferrari was way beyond his means and he was about to get the car repo’d? Does that make his parking in front of your building even more offensive TO YOU? The reality is that this woman was living her life, just as the fictional Ferrari driver would be. The may have their problems, but they aren’t out to get you. So you shouldn’t choose to take it that way. And to the people who really do think that this situation is going to personally cost them as an individual taxpayer, this is what need to do in order to be consistent and avoid hypocrisy: 1. Analyze your degree of upsetedness by this situation. If you find yourself upset, proceed to step 2. |
I’ve only skimmed the other comments, but I wanted to mention that on NPR today, someone made mention of the fact that this lady is getting death threats, but in the grand scheme of things, the govt aide she’s getting is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of money misused and mishandled and stolen by the many corporations, banks, etc that are a big reason for our economic crisis right now. Why aren’t they getting death threats? The commenter’s point was that in many ways, this lady has been set up by the media as a scapegoat – a concrete target for peoples’ anger about the state of the country. |
Just curious, are the people giving death threats to this lady other infertile people? That’s the impression I got from this thread, but I just wanted to know if that was actually the case or if it was just presumed that infertile people would be the ones angry enough with her to want to kill her. I’m infertile and have never been pregnant, though I have adopted two children. From an infertility standpoint, I have no angst toward this woman at all, though I think what she’s done is incredibly stupid, and from a medical ethics point of view, it shouldn’t have been allowed to happen. (That many embryos should not have ever been implanted in any woman.) I guess what gets to me is the stereotype that infertile people are so psychologically messed up from their experience that they are just lying in wait to do cruel and terrible things to people who can have children. People that would do such a thing have much deeper issues than infertility. I remember reading Bobbi McCaughey’s book about her experience having septuplets, and while I don’t remember that she ever had death threats, they did receive huge amounts of nasty, scary mail from people who didn’t approve of what they had done. (Mail referring to her children as “rats”, that the world would be better off without them, etc.) My impression from what she wrote was that the people who sent this type of thing were not other jealous infertiles, but people on the radical, extreme edges of the childfree movement. I would imagine that in this situation, it’s much the same. The fact that this woman is single, has six other children, and relies on state aid definitely is only going to make things worse in some people’s minds. But some crazed people have almost equally strong reactions to people in perfectly stable situations having this many children, or using fertility treatment. |
Eljee – I would tend to agree with you that these people issuing death threats are from a radical fringe of environmentalists/no child advocates. I remember in grad school I was talking to a woman and she was apalled that my family had 11 children. She even suggested that my parents should be fined for misuse of scarce resources. I was a little shocked at that response… |
Actually, I’m grateful to the octomom for exposing the extent of our welfare state (which will be vastly expanded thanks to the 787 Dreamliner that just passed. |
Devyn S., just so you know….. As rbc correctly guessed, my comments in #32 and #34 were meant to channel my new superhero and spiritual mentor, Rodney Turner. I made those comments saracastically, so I hope you can appreciate my mortification when I now realize that someone has taken them seriously. |
Sorry – Mark – I have a hard time distinguising sarcasm sometimes via text – you needed a little wink icon or something to help morons like me :) |
I have tremendous regard for her mother, whose patience exceeds the humanly possible. |
1) Yes, the people giving death threats are over the edge, no matter what camp they’re from. 2) Nate, of course you’re right. Someone else having a child does not take a child away from me. But that’s the logical side of the argument and I think you’re missing the emotional side. I may know God isn’t a vending machine for the righteous but it’s still hard to see the unrighteous get the blessing that I so desperately want. |
Spot on Anne. |
Death Threats is wrong & you never know when people can be serious or not hard to tell and so it is against the law to even make threats like these against anybody & anyone & it should be that way some people will not feel like their in danger ! I have a woman online making death threats against me in chats as well as another woman she has been threating her & her kids this woman even told me she would murder my kids if they got in her way I don’t even know her ! So people like that are just plain psycho ! |
All though I have no kids yet ! Still I did call her a few names because I was very upset this was going on for a while and happend more then once so every few months I go somewhere online she finds me and threatens me and this woman ! (greentea143 !) The one online thing I reported to her has proof but why was she not cut offline or arrested for this crap? Are they gonna wait till someone maybe dead or injured by this crazy woman? That’s why I carry pepper spray ! Because she is not only crazy but a stalker ! |