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	<title>Comments on: Eeny Meeny Miny Mo&#8230;Pick a Missionary by the toe</title>
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	<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm</link>
	<description>Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People</description>
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		<title>By: Orwell</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102375</link>
		<dc:creator>Orwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 08:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102375</guid>
		<description>Eh, I&#039;m not going to get on the whole &quot;Sisters are better&quot; bandwagon.  First of all, it strikes me as sexist - I feel a strain of &quot;women are just as good as men except when they&#039;re better&quot; woven throughout.  However, let me be quick to point out that this is really more of a conditioned reaction that I have developed as a result of how I have seen these types of discussions play out in the past.  I don&#039;t think that was anyone&#039;s intention here - I know everyone&#039;s just expressing preferences (to which they are perfectly entitled), so I&#039;m not going to take it too seriously.  Besides, I&#039;m sure we would all agree that both Elders and Sisters have good (though often different) qualities that make them uniquely important.

Now, if we were to empirically prove that more people do in fact prefer only sisters (which is certainly possible), I&#039;m sure that just the opposite would turn out to be true if the ratio of Elders to Sisters in the mission field were somehow reversed.  I suspect that the good traits most valued in Sisters are only in higher demand because they are in shorter supply.  They also carry their own brand of problems, which members would probably notice and complain about more frequently if there were a large increase in the number of Sisters.

That said, anecdotal evidence from my own experience mirrors arJ&#039;s, but it&#039;s a statistically insignificant sample, so I&#039;m not going to draw any generalizations from it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eh, I&#8217;m not going to get on the whole &#8220;Sisters are better&#8221; bandwagon.  First of all, it strikes me as sexist &#8211; I feel a strain of &#8220;women are just as good as men except when they&#8217;re better&#8221; woven throughout.  However, let me be quick to point out that this is really more of a conditioned reaction that I have developed as a result of how I have seen these types of discussions play out in the past.  I don&#8217;t think that was anyone&#8217;s intention here &#8211; I know everyone&#8217;s just expressing preferences (to which they are perfectly entitled), so I&#8217;m not going to take it too seriously.  Besides, I&#8217;m sure we would all agree that both Elders and Sisters have good (though often different) qualities that make them uniquely important.</p>
<p>Now, if we were to empirically prove that more people do in fact prefer only sisters (which is certainly possible), I&#8217;m sure that just the opposite would turn out to be true if the ratio of Elders to Sisters in the mission field were somehow reversed.  I suspect that the good traits most valued in Sisters are only in higher demand because they are in shorter supply.  They also carry their own brand of problems, which members would probably notice and complain about more frequently if there were a large increase in the number of Sisters.</p>
<p>That said, anecdotal evidence from my own experience mirrors arJ&#8217;s, but it&#8217;s a statistically insignificant sample, so I&#8217;m not going to draw any generalizations from it.</p>
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		<title>By: ESO</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102366</link>
		<dc:creator>ESO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 02:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102366</guid>
		<description>Well I am totally gratified to declare that SISTERS WIN!  More people, for a variety of reasons, would rather have only sisters serve in their ward than have only elders.  Yeah!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I am totally gratified to declare that SISTERS WIN!  More people, for a variety of reasons, would rather have only sisters serve in their ward than have only elders.  Yeah!</p>
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		<title>By: Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102365</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 01:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102365</guid>
		<description>I was always confused during my mission (about 8 months ago) that members were so confused about what/who sisters could not visit. It was simple, take the Elder&#039;s rules about not being allowed to go into a house where no adult male was present and reverse the genders involved. Sisters cannot go into homes (for visiting members, teaching, or eating) where there was no adult female present. We also could not drive with anyone if no other adult female was present. As ESO said, it is a public image as well as a safety thing. Also we were definitely not allowed to hold or do anything else (especially babysit) kids.

That said, I enjoy having Sisters because I feel I have more to contribute both in conversation and actual help. I can drive them places, go to lessons with them, and have them for dinner where I cannot do any of those things with Elders. Also in my experience with sisters there were a few here and there who didn&#039;t really want to be there and so were sub par, but the rest were excellent. There were also many excellent Elders, but because they were around in greater numbers the less stellar Elders were more numerous. 

(Just for the record, I only ever had a &quot;fight&quot; with one out of my eleven companions and I was in five threesomes. And the Office was most certainly not called. It just depends on the sisters involved.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was always confused during my mission (about 8 months ago) that members were so confused about what/who sisters could not visit. It was simple, take the Elder&#8217;s rules about not being allowed to go into a house where no adult male was present and reverse the genders involved. Sisters cannot go into homes (for visiting members, teaching, or eating) where there was no adult female present. We also could not drive with anyone if no other adult female was present. As ESO said, it is a public image as well as a safety thing. Also we were definitely not allowed to hold or do anything else (especially babysit) kids.</p>
<p>That said, I enjoy having Sisters because I feel I have more to contribute both in conversation and actual help. I can drive them places, go to lessons with them, and have them for dinner where I cannot do any of those things with Elders. Also in my experience with sisters there were a few here and there who didn&#8217;t really want to be there and so were sub par, but the rest were excellent. There were also many excellent Elders, but because they were around in greater numbers the less stellar Elders were more numerous. </p>
<p>(Just for the record, I only ever had a &#8220;fight&#8221; with one out of my eleven companions and I was in five threesomes. And the Office was most certainly not called. It just depends on the sisters involved.)</p>
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		<title>By: Anon on this</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102252</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon on this</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102252</guid>
		<description>I can completely corroborate Bookslinger&#039;s report.  While serving as a Bishop, I had one young man who went through that.  Both the Stake President and I knew he couldn&#039;t handle the physical/mental pressures of a mission.  But his parents felt strongly that he should submit his papers.  I told them what my recommendation would be.  So did the SP.  So did the doctor who performed the pre-mission medical evaluation.  He submitted anyway.  He got the &quot;your service is not needed at this time&quot; response.  It happens a lot more since the Church &quot;raised the bar&quot;.

This is an area where the prospective missionary and their family is not likely to want to talk about it.  Even with a &#039;honorably excused&#039; response.  They almost certainly are not going to want to go into detail about what medical/psychological issues got in the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can completely corroborate Bookslinger&#8217;s report.  While serving as a Bishop, I had one young man who went through that.  Both the Stake President and I knew he couldn&#8217;t handle the physical/mental pressures of a mission.  But his parents felt strongly that he should submit his papers.  I told them what my recommendation would be.  So did the SP.  So did the doctor who performed the pre-mission medical evaluation.  He submitted anyway.  He got the &#8220;your service is not needed at this time&#8221; response.  It happens a lot more since the Church &#8220;raised the bar&#8221;.</p>
<p>This is an area where the prospective missionary and their family is not likely to want to talk about it.  Even with a &#8216;honorably excused&#8217; response.  They almost certainly are not going to want to go into detail about what medical/psychological issues got in the way.</p>
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		<title>By: ESO</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102236</link>
		<dc:creator>ESO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102236</guid>
		<description>Rick B--lol--good point.  Sometimes sisters are asked to babysit, so I personally would have loved such a rule too!

Tim J--I am skeptical, although Bookslinger&#039;s theory sounds plausible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick B&#8211;lol&#8211;good point.  Sometimes sisters are asked to babysit, so I personally would have loved such a rule too!</p>
<p>Tim J&#8211;I am skeptical, although Bookslinger&#8217;s theory sounds plausible.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102232</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 04:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102232</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;I was just talking to my brother who mentioned that in his ward a young lady put in her mission papers and received back a reply that said something to the effect that her service at this time was not needed.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

That sounds like it may have been an &quot;honorably excused&quot; type of thing. Such as if her physical or mental health was not well enough to meet mission rigors.

There are some go/no-go decisions where the bishop and Stake pres don&#039;t have enough medical or psych knowledge on their own to determine if someone should go or not.  And the missionary candidate&#039;s local non-member doctor may not know enough about mission conditions to make the go/no-go decision.    In those cases, the church&#039;s medical consultants may make a &quot;no go&quot; decision after reviewing the medical history, current medications, etc.

Removing such decision-making to the faceless consultants at the missionary department, and wording it &quot;your service is not needed at this time&quot; or &quot;you are hereby honorably excuse&quot; saves the Bishop and Stake Pres the hassle of angry parents accusing them of denying their child the opportunity of missionary service.

It&#039;s also better for the excused missionary candidate to be able to answer the question &quot;Why didn&#039;t you serve a mission&quot; with an honest &quot;I was honorably excused&quot; than being forced to say &quot;The bishop wouldn&#039;t let me&quot; or &quot;my mental state is too fragile to bear up under the rigors of a full-time mission&quot; or &quot;the church doesn&#039;t want any more basket cases going on missions.&quot;

I had a companion who I now think would have been honorably excused under today&#039;s standards.

And I probably would have been, or should have been, declined/excused myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I was just talking to my brother who mentioned that in his ward a young lady put in her mission papers and received back a reply that said something to the effect that her service at this time was not needed.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>That sounds like it may have been an &#8220;honorably excused&#8221; type of thing. Such as if her physical or mental health was not well enough to meet mission rigors.</p>
<p>There are some go/no-go decisions where the bishop and Stake pres don&#8217;t have enough medical or psych knowledge on their own to determine if someone should go or not.  And the missionary candidate&#8217;s local non-member doctor may not know enough about mission conditions to make the go/no-go decision.    In those cases, the church&#8217;s medical consultants may make a &#8220;no go&#8221; decision after reviewing the medical history, current medications, etc.</p>
<p>Removing such decision-making to the faceless consultants at the missionary department, and wording it &#8220;your service is not needed at this time&#8221; or &#8220;you are hereby honorably excuse&#8221; saves the Bishop and Stake Pres the hassle of angry parents accusing them of denying their child the opportunity of missionary service.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also better for the excused missionary candidate to be able to answer the question &#8220;Why didn&#8217;t you serve a mission&#8221; with an honest &#8220;I was honorably excused&#8221; than being forced to say &#8220;The bishop wouldn&#8217;t let me&#8221; or &#8220;my mental state is too fragile to bear up under the rigors of a full-time mission&#8221; or &#8220;the church doesn&#8217;t want any more basket cases going on missions.&#8221;</p>
<p>I had a companion who I now think would have been honorably excused under today&#8217;s standards.</p>
<p>And I probably would have been, or should have been, declined/excused myself.</p>
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		<title>By: a random John</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102221</link>
		<dc:creator>a random John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102221</guid>
		<description>bbell,

I assume that you were addressing me regarding Sisters calling the office.  I&#039;ll clarify further.  First, we didn&#039;t have elderly sisters, so that wasn&#039;t an issue at all.  Second, nobody (with the exception of the office) had a telephone.  In fact making a phone call was quite a hassle and expensive.  I called the office once in my mission because I received a telegram telling me to do so.  My grandmother had passed away.

So when missionaries called the office they really wanted to call the office.  And there were often legitimate reasons to do so.  But most of the calls were of the nature that you mention, companionship squabbles blown out of proportion or some other concern that we couldn&#039;t do anything about.

We got these such calls from both elders and sisters, but the sisters made a disproportionate number of the calls.  They were also more likely to randomly show up at the office (which in most cases meant that they had wasted one or two entire days to do so) with a complaint that didn&#039;t even merit being brought up to a DL.

If you read my comments carefully I said that elders seemed more likely to go home in memorable fashion, but that usually happened early on in their mission and was one day of drama and then they were gone.  Bad sisters never got anyone pregnant (other than perhaps themselves) and they certainly never got multiple people pregnant, but they were problematic in their own ways day after day.

Again, my primary point was that elders and sisters are distributed very differently in terms of quality missionaries.  With elders you pretty much know what you&#039;re getting since they tend to be about average with some very good and some outright evil ones sprinkled in here and there.  Sisters tend more towards the extremes in terms of being really good or really useless.  I&#039;d add that more were good than useless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bbell,</p>
<p>I assume that you were addressing me regarding Sisters calling the office.  I&#8217;ll clarify further.  First, we didn&#8217;t have elderly sisters, so that wasn&#8217;t an issue at all.  Second, nobody (with the exception of the office) had a telephone.  In fact making a phone call was quite a hassle and expensive.  I called the office once in my mission because I received a telegram telling me to do so.  My grandmother had passed away.</p>
<p>So when missionaries called the office they really wanted to call the office.  And there were often legitimate reasons to do so.  But most of the calls were of the nature that you mention, companionship squabbles blown out of proportion or some other concern that we couldn&#8217;t do anything about.</p>
<p>We got these such calls from both elders and sisters, but the sisters made a disproportionate number of the calls.  They were also more likely to randomly show up at the office (which in most cases meant that they had wasted one or two entire days to do so) with a complaint that didn&#8217;t even merit being brought up to a DL.</p>
<p>If you read my comments carefully I said that elders seemed more likely to go home in memorable fashion, but that usually happened early on in their mission and was one day of drama and then they were gone.  Bad sisters never got anyone pregnant (other than perhaps themselves) and they certainly never got multiple people pregnant, but they were problematic in their own ways day after day.</p>
<p>Again, my primary point was that elders and sisters are distributed very differently in terms of quality missionaries.  With elders you pretty much know what you&#8217;re getting since they tend to be about average with some very good and some outright evil ones sprinkled in here and there.  Sisters tend more towards the extremes in terms of being really good or really useless.  I&#8217;d add that more were good than useless.</p>
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		<title>By: Katie P.</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102219</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102219</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t heard it, but it sounds like an urban legend to me - mostly because that was my biggest fear after I put in my papers. I was sure I was going to be rejected.

If it did happen, I seriously doubt the sister would be told in a letter that looked like a call. It would come from the stake president.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t heard it, but it sounds like an urban legend to me &#8211; mostly because that was my biggest fear after I put in my papers. I was sure I was going to be rejected.</p>
<p>If it did happen, I seriously doubt the sister would be told in a letter that looked like a call. It would come from the stake president.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim J</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102215</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102215</guid>
		<description>I was just talking to my brother who mentioned that in his ward a young lady put in her mission papers and received back a reply that said something to the effect that her service at this time was not needed.

Any corroboration on this?  He said he heard it happened recently to another Sister in the Stake as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just talking to my brother who mentioned that in his ward a young lady put in her mission papers and received back a reply that said something to the effect that her service at this time was not needed.</p>
<p>Any corroboration on this?  He said he heard it happened recently to another Sister in the Stake as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick B.</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/02/23/eeny-meeny-miny-mopick-a-missionary-by-the-toe.htm/comment-page-2#comment-102206</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=1224#comment-102206</guid>
		<description>ESO, I might be mistaken but I think the &quot;no holding/touching kids&quot; rule is now in the white bible (a term that I haven&#039;t heard in years, so I don&#039;t know if they still call it that in mission lingo).  When I was a missionary, there were a few member homes with rowdy kids where I would have welcomed such a rule.  &quot;I&#039;m sorry, you can&#039;t pull my hair or choke me with my tie, it&#039;s against the rules.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ESO, I might be mistaken but I think the &#8220;no holding/touching kids&#8221; rule is now in the white bible (a term that I haven&#8217;t heard in years, so I don&#8217;t know if they still call it that in mission lingo).  When I was a missionary, there were a few member homes with rowdy kids where I would have welcomed such a rule.  &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry, you can&#8217;t pull my hair or choke me with my tie, it&#8217;s against the rules.&#8221;</p>
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