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Srsly. The primary difference between Darwinian evolution and it’s alternatives [you mean Lamarkian evolution? - that's for the Simpson's fans-] is that it invites, even dares testing. On the political front and in the battles in the school boards, yes Darwinism does approach a dogma. On the scientific front? It has been proved, refined and adapted as the evidence leads. If you could provide an alternative explanation and your proofs were verified you would be feted. That might not happen before you die, science does have it’s entropy, but you would be recognized. Ironically, what this post is proving is just how well the propaganda is working. The people promoting ID and working on forcing it to be taught in schools as science are advancing a specific cultural agenda. Note the specificity of that. I don’t mind anybody teaching or talking about intelligent design. I do mind a political agenda being presented as science. |
My father was a biologist who liked to egg on his high priests’ group by saying that Christianity was itself a theory. |
As for ID, I have no problems with it being taught – in philosophy class. |
I think that you have either set up a strawman, or you are making a technical point that will be lost on many. The truth behind your argument was most famously articulated by Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin in their 1979 paper, The Spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian Paradigm: A Critique of the Adaptationist Programme, and in popular literature and blogs I see similar criticisms directed against, for example, evolutionary psychology. Your potential strawman is that natural selection is the only known mechanism of evolution, and that no testing is possible. Here’s a way to test: find or make a mutant, and then see if there is a cost in reproductive success. Also, geneticists have various statistical tests for inferring natural selection. |
A few points: You said:, well, you said a bunch of stuff that basically said that evolution wasn’t yet completely worked out, and so implicitly invalidated the theory. (For example, “Can we find cases where things exist that don’t seem to be accounted for by natural adaptation or improved survivability?) Two points. First, the fact that you personally don’t understand something doesn’t make it false. As an aside, I consider this argument from ignorance astonishing every time I run into it. How can someone make it with a straight face? Second, there’d be quite a few disapppointed former scientists out there if it turned out everything had been figured out. The fact that there are gaps in our knowledge means that there is still science left to do!!!! Yay! You said: “Darwinian theory says the best-adapted species tend to survive. How do we know they’re the best adapted? Because they survived. That tautology is awfully convenient for something that’s “just” a theory.” For starters: “A theory is a unifying principle that explains a body of facts and the laws based on them. In other words, it is an explanation to a set of observations.” (Conveniently snached from Wikipedia.) Evolutionary theory says something somewhat different than “the best-adapted species tend to survive.” Extremely briefly it says that members of a species differ (this is the random part). Look around, for example, at members of your family. Some of these differences lead to greater reproductive success. (This is the “selection” part of natural selection.) The bits of the genetic code that lead to greater reproductive success, thus tend to spread into more organisms than those bits that don’t. Do this for a long enough time and you have, uh the world around us. This is not a tautology. It’s also not the color blue (at least on my monitor.) I’m confess to being at a loss as to how refute something so, uh, do you know what a tautology is? Evolutionary theory does not does not does not say that species optimize their environments. Not at all. Leaves (mostly) are green (mostly) because the plants pretty much all descended from an ancestor with green chlorophyll, and for whatever reason, didn’t develop the set of mutations to change it. There is just so much epic fail pwn wrong in your post, it’s a winner. I’m giving up on refuting each and every sentence and suggest that you actually learn something about evolutionary theory. Then we can talk. Oh, and btw, if someone disproved Evolutionary theory, they’d end up with a Nobel. Science is like that. |
One more thing then I’ll shut up. Altruism “Would I lay down my life to save my brother? No, but I would to save two brothers or eight cousins.” — J.B.S. Haldane (Famed evolutionary biologist who died in 1964.) |
Oh my word. Are you claiming that the theory of evolution is static, and that whatever Darwin wrote is what we cling to now, never refining it based on observation or subjecting it to experimentation? Clearly this isn’t the case. As with all scientific theories there have been refinements as scientific knowledge increases and studies are done. The theory as it currently stands reflects our best understanding of what has been observed. When more is observed the theory will either be refined or with extraordinary evidence, refuted. |
I think the last few comments have proven the “dogma” assertion of the post. I mean, it couldn’t simply be disagreement, it has to be mouth-agape flabberghastedness. For the most part, I find nothing inherently wrong with much of Darwinian scientific evolutionary theory. Most of the tenants of Darwin are very logical and very good science, though he didn’t do it himself. I don’t think your intention was to refute Darwin or his theory in this post, but rather cast room for doubt, much like the liberated blogger loves to do in the face of the LDS Church. And such an attempt will receive specific criticism, but I think there is more than enough room in any science for disbelief, uncertainty, etc. Personally, I think that there is another part of Darwin’s work that was fluffy and philosophical, where the real work was done by others in scientific laboratory discovering traits and heredity. But generally, I think that the greatest hurdle Darwin faces in the minds of many LDS and probably God, is his adherence to Natural Determinism, where we tend to hold fast to the dogma of agentic freedom. So next time we decide to say rather harsh things, even on a blog, we will know that we couldn’t help it, we’re harsh by nature. |
Pointing out obvious errors is not “Dogma.” Dogma, in your first instance, I think, is meant to indicate refusing to change one’s mind about A when presented with evidence against A. However, writing a bunch of jaw-droppingly wrong stuff about something and having people be so impolite as to point this out does not fall under this definition. I blame the current state of science education in the US. I am sorry, Jeff Bennion, that you were never taught what Evolutionary Theory actually was. |
Good post. The thing that bugs me is that we have this way of viewing EVERYthing through a Darwinian lens. All of the softer sciences seem to be filtered through that lens nowadays–whether your talkin’ psychology or sociology or, heck, any of the liberal arts–Darwin’s got his finger in those pies. We even frame much of our discourse about the physical sciences in Darwinian terms–the evolution of stars and what-not. I fear this little Darwinian web of influence will one day become a tightly woven cocoon. |
I guess it’s becoming like–you know–a world view. |
Jeff Bennion said: “Leaves are green because they need to reflect red, the most heat intensive wavelength of light.” Leaves are green because they reflect green wavelengths of light and absorb others (red, yellow, blue). Red wavelengths of light that are absorbed into the plant, yes, that is absorbed, not reflected, are the primary energy source that drives photosynthesis. This is pretty basic biology and misunderstanding it has led you to other errors. Leaves are diverse in shape, thickness, biochemistry, etc. Some traits allow plants to do well in high latitudes and some allow them to do well in the tropics. I could make similar corrections throughout your post. You are right, we don’t know why some things are the way they are; some traits may be evolutionary leftovers or byproducts. What’s so great about the human brain? Homo sapiens is the only extant species from the Homo genus. If our brain had anything to do with that, then I’d say our brain is great. And if our brain causes such a hit to survivability, why are we still surviving? Sure, we don’t know, evolutionarily, why some things are the way they are; but we know more than we used to and for a hundred years detractors have searched for new evolutionary unknowns as science has shed light on previous unknowns and found evolution fits them well. So I have to agree with others; this post doesn’t have a thorough understanding of any aspect of evolution and is the wrong type of discourse for discussing evolution, religion, and dogma–wrong in that the understanding is wrong, the explanations are wrong. You do make some valid points and raise some valid questions; unfortunately, they are lost in the quagmire. |
I’m just not sure why Neo-Darwinian evolution is being singled out here. All scientists view their field through theoretical lenses. And of course this makes falsification a sticky subject. This was Kuhn’s whole objection to Popperian falsification and a theory of how science is done. Normal science is simply a bunch of scientist confirming their theory until enough anomalies build up to cause a crisis in the theory because the data just isn’t fitting. Of course, such is not the current situation with the Neo-Darwinian theory. Each time an apparent anomaly is normalized, this only serves to strengthen the theory. Of course, Jeff’s point might be that the “Just So Stories” of the adaptationist perspective are too lenient to allow for any crises to arise. This was Gould’s critique, as Jared noted. To assume, however, that evolutionary biologists are not aware of Gould’s famous criticisms would be VERY wrong. |
Did I say anything about intelligent design? I will later, but this post should not be read as a defense of intelligent design; I can find little to recommend ID as a science curriculum. #1, I suppose I *do* have a “cultural agenda” in my nervousness about the uses to which Darwinian evolution is often put. A case in point is the hysteria and condescension with which many Darwinians greet religion; as nasamomdele points out. Jared #4, I am not claiming that SJG and others weren’t aware of these criticisms. Of course they were; as you can tell, I drew upon his work for some of these examples. My point is only that these problems have not been solved to most people’s satisfaction. Same thing goes, djinn #6, for JBS Haldane’s clever quip. Amusing, but the rules of altruism do not seem to operate mathematically the way Haldane thinks they should. I am not saying these things cannot be solved or that I don’t find some of the solutions already offered persuasive. Because in many cases I do. What I am trying to point out is that the claim of many that Darwin’s theory has prevailed against all comers is at best premature. And I wish to point out that the BELIEF that Darwin’s evolution eventually will explain everything is qualitatively the same as religious faith. It is a kind of theology; more precisely an eschatology. That isn’t meant as a criticism; it’s hard to imagine people operating any other way. But I do find it amusing. And count me as sympathizing with some of those criticisms of evolutionary psychology. #12 of course you are right, leaves reflect green and not red. But my larger point is valid: reflection of this wavelength is a way to regulate heat. And according to physics the optimal color for leaves at higher latitudes is black, just like solar cells are. There may be various biochemical reasons why this isn’t possible, but evolutionary theory is hard to test because it is hard to construct experiments, especially on a human timescale. You can try to explain it by saying species have adapted optimally but within the constraints of available morphologies and biochemistry. But strip out the jargon there and ask, what can you really *test* in that assertion? Aren’t you really saying that things are the way they are because they can’t be any other way? And is that proposition really science? Science should give us something to do. Most of what evolution is doing, which is the point I tried to make (perhaps inarticulately) is explaining what is, rather than formulating testable hypotheses. In all the range of possible outcomes, why do we have this one? We only have one outcome to test, the world we are in. So why do we have this world, and not a different one? An ultra Darwinian says, of course dummy, things are this way because of (a) chance or (b) this is the optimal niche for this species. I reply that some things (a) seem highly unlikely to be purely random and (b) that is awfully convenient and reeks of tautology (didn’t Voltaire mock Pangloss?). I do not know that this position deserves the contempt and scorn some heap upon it, since they are the same things many evolutionary biologists themselves are grappling with. I guess my plea with this post can be summed up thus: Let’s treat Darwinian evolution as just a theory. Let’s not be so defensive about it, as if your life depends on it being right or wrong. A theory like other scientific theories. Not as a guide for life, not as if it could or should form the basis for morality. (I’m looking at you E.O. Wilson.) Let’s not have a new form of religious fundamentalism, not as the only true and living social gospel. |
You are still getting the leaf reflectance/absorbance wrong. Leaves absorb light to power photosynthesis, not regulate temperature. Temperature regulation is related but really is a minor issue, secondary to photosynthesis. Jeff, you still sound like you do not know what you are talking about. Solar cells are placed at angles to get the most direct sunlight; plants do this, too. In reality, some plants do make very dark leaves; in 500k years, we me see plants with leaves that are more or less black. To say plants “should” have black leaves is to misunderstand evolution. It’s easy and normal to make this “should” mistake when reasoning through why things are the way they are. Science replaces “should” with what is. A more correct “should” statement is, a plant in high latitudes should have mechanisms that allow it to live there; plants in the tropics should have mechanisms that allow them to live there. And they do. And we can test them. And we have. See Jared*’s comment, and also Djinn’s comment on leaves and descent. Jeff asked, “aren’t you really saying that things are the way they are because they can’t be any other way?” No. I never said they “can’t” be another way. Things are the way they are because that is what happened. I could have happened differently. It still can–but there are barriers in unwinding 100 million years of tinkering so that a leaf can do what you think it “should.” There is an interesting discussion to be had here; your mistakes along the way have made this too murky to really have it. (I still have the impression that you do not have an adequate understanding of evolution and the science you cite.) |
nasamomdele – Social Darwinism has very little to do with the scientific observations that form the basis of the theory of natural selection and much more to do with people attempting to attach their prejudices onto it. I even have a hard time with the ‘evolutionary’ psychology that keeps making the news. Again, more proof that primary science education in the US has been a gaping black hole for a number of years. |
#15, I am sorry if you think I am saying plants haven’t and can’t adapt. Of course they have and of course they do. Heliotaxis is a wonderful and amazing thing. So are stomata. (Should we have a discussion about C4 photosynthesis and global warming, and what it means for how plants really feel about carbon emissions?) Yes the amount of chlorophyll varies according to species and the waxes and so forth will vary the type of green the leaves are. But they are still green. Why? What’s the empirical test we can construct to demonstrate that leaves are the color they should be solely because of Darwinian evolution? You seem to be saying, to really prove it, we’d have to wait 100 million years or whatnot. I’m happy to wait, but what should we do in the meantime? |
By they way– and this is where you aren’t thinking it through or don’t understand leaves enough. There are nearly black leaves out there, due largely to deep purple pigment and other pigments Leaves are colors other than green. I have seen them. We see those other colors every autumn. Maybe leaves are mostly green because they don’t need to be anything else. They do what they should, not what you think they should. Jeff said “the color they should be” Ugh, when you have created a leaf, you can comment on how it “should” be. Why aren’t people bullet proof? They should be bullet proof, right? Because that would give them an advantage. Jeff said “Let’s treat Darwinian evolution as just a theory. Let’s not be so defensive about it..” I don’t know why I even responded to the post–but you had the science so wrong, I couldn’t help it. The internet wins again. I get defensive of evolution when people make poor arguments against it; use misinformation to discredit it; twist facts against it. I won’t be so defensive of evolution if you try to understand it instead of attacking it; if you refrain from using straw-man arguments, wrong science, etc. to attack it. How does that sound? I’m done here. |
Anonymous Scientist: we really do seem to be talking past each other. I am not saying evolution is false or that species don’t evolve or adapt. I’m sorry you think I am. When leaves change color in autumn there is no photosynthesis, in fact those colors emerge because the leaves are dying. So that is relevant how? And chloroplasts are always green; the other pigments in leaves have nothing to do with photosynthesis. We are talking about optimizing the energy capture of photosynthesis here, which is a particular problem where sunlight is scarce, as in higher latitudes. Photosynthesis does not capture all of the available electromagnetic spectrum, in fact it skips a fairly energetic portion of it. I am not concerned with leaf color per se. Things are the way they are, and there are reasons for that. Have we *proved* that we know what those reasons are? Until we know that, the claim that it’s natural selection operating (while an eminently sensible claim, I hasten to add) is not a proof. At best it’s a hypothesis that should be subject to testing. How do we test that? All I am trying to say, and it’s not some crypto-intelligent design argument, is that when you move past “just so” stories, it’s actually VERY HARD to construct falsifiable tests of natural selection. In this case, can you think of one? The best I can do is we’d try to synthesize chloroplasts that capture a wider EM spectrum, plant them in higher climates, and then show that they don’t outcompete the existing flora. But there’s a million other variables to test here, so I’m not proposing this test–that’s my point. What’s a good, falsifiable test? I’m stumped. |
I think that you’ve overcomplicated the matter. It’s sufficient for Darwinian evolution that certain traits are more likely to persist when they favor survival, and other traits are less likely to persist when impede survival. Thus, we’re looking for a distribution of a subset of traits in any given species or genus or what have you, and we needn’t share Darwin’s deterministic approach which held that all traits must be determined; i.e., can adopt an indeterministic approach to trait selection and admit that many of these traits are random occurrences. Furthermore, given the state of DNA science, we can actually calculate the probability of the survival of any specific DNA marker given a quantified rate of environmental selection against that marker combined with the rate of random mutation. This probability rate will be a mathematical statement that can be tested in (say) a simple life form with a short enough life span like a bacterium. And, in fact, if you take a bunch of bacteria and systematically separate and destroy the stipulated percentage of the bacteria with a certain marker, you’ll find that the rate of survival of bacteria with that marker matches with the probability rate. Therefore, evolution is not only falsifiable, but it is well corroborated on at least a few levels. |
A pox on both houses. The Darwinists and the Creationists. (I am agnostic on this topic) But they sound kind of the same to me. I recall sitting in a lecture hall in a evolution class in college and the professor sounded like a preacher. He was literally bearing witness that he knew that evolution was true. I gave him a “preach it brother” comment and the class erupted in laughter. I also got sent to the front of the class in timeout as well. There is religous sounding dogma attached to belief in evolution. On the flip side Creationists take huge leaps of logic to make their case. They usually just sound silly. |
“Darwinian theory says the best-adapted species tend to survive. How do we know they’re the best adapted? Because they survived. That tautology is awfully convenient for something that’s “just” a theory.” Surely, Jeff, you must see that something sneaky is going on here. It’s pretty difficult for the evolutionist to put his finger on, but surely the creationist who lobs this criticism knows that fitness isn’t really just “those who survive.” Sure, observing who survives is a nice shortcut for empirically verifying who was “the fittest”, but this should not be confused with the definition of fitness as such. Of course, this definition is very difficult to nail down, and that’s what gives the creationist all their ammo in this case. Unfortunately for him, however, his ammo is really blanks, for whatever fitness is, it surely isn’t “whatever survives.” Basically it boils down to this. There is a “reason” why some organisms survives to reproduce while others do not. For instance, giraffes have long necks because those who didn’t presumably couldn’t reach the leaves they needed to survive are reproduce. There is a “reason” why those with long necks where fitter. The problem is that reasons are not the sort of thing that lend themselves to empirical scrutiny. Thus, Darwinian evolution very much straddles the gap between the physical realm of mere matter in motion and the intentional realm complete with reasons, supply, demand, etc. and the like. This is what makes the idea so wonderful. The “just so stories” of the Neo-Darwinians are no more undisciplined than are the explanations that we employ in explaining human behavior in economics, psychology, the social sciences and even introspection. |
Despite your protestations, you do seem hell-bent on putting down evolution to promote something else here. Typically, people who do this seem to be using a bad science argument to promote bad theology. Why should Mormonism be troubled by Darwin? A god who is truly eternal should be big enough to handle anything. |
“The ‘just so stories’ of the Neo-Darwinians are no more undisciplined than are the explanations that we employ in explaining human behavior in economics, psychology, the social sciences and even introspection.” Right. When an economist presents us with his grand theory of all human interaction, no one treats it on a par with Boltzmann’s Law or gets troubled that it’s not. As a science, is biological evolution closer to economics or to physics? There’s nothing wrong with it if its closer to economics. Most worthwhile things are closer to economics than they are to physics. Many are on the other side of economics. It would mean, though, that overarching explanations of all life everywhere are easier to group with the works of Marx and Milton Friedman than with those of Einstein and Maxwell. |
Eric, The only idea that this post is promoting is that because evolution doesn’t currently have the answers to everything that one need not suppose that with time it will–as many are want to believe. At least that’s the way I read it. |
“As a science, is biological evolution closer to economics or to physics?” Physics. |
Nicely asserted, woodboy. |
Is there any other theory, hypothesis, or system of belief that explains what we observe around us as efficiently as evolution does? I do not believe there is, and so evolution is the only game in town right now. That doesn’t mean it has all the answers. The current crop of IDers make their living pointing out the holes, and that’s fine. But sooner or later, anybody who wants to be taken seriously has to lay out another explanation for observed reality. |
Mark Brown, that’s a common refrain regarding evolution that I don’t really understand, this idea that unless we have a better competing theory, it’s off limits to raise issues with an existing theory. The Michelson-Morley experiment was a very important piece of work that went unanswered for decades while theory caught up. Even if theory had never caught up, it would still be an important piece of knowledge. |
John, I said I think it is fine to raise questions. The current crop of IDers make their living pointing out the holes, and that’s fine. My point is that until somebody puts forward a competing theory, there is no competing theory. I can find minor things wrong with the way Randy Johnson throws a fast ball, but until I can throw a ball consistently at 98 mph, I’m not in his league, and I would just look stupid if I stood around and insisted that I be taken seriously as a pitcher. |
Personal beliefs don’t matter a whole lot to me, public policy does. What do you think should be taught in public schools? |
“Is there any other theory, hypothesis, or system of belief that explains what we observe around us as efficiently as evolution does?” Evolution can ground us to a certain point in our observations. But–as per the original post–though evolution may give us some clues as to why certain things are “designed” (heh) a certain way, it doesn’t do so good a job at defining why a particular design may be beautiful. Nor does it offer meaningful answers for the purpose of existence. Certainly these questions are more philosophical in nature, but if we’re gonna view evolution as a “system of belief” then we’ve got a lot of work ahead of ourselves in determining how those things that seem to transcend evolutionist explanations are, in fact, explained by evolution. |
I think critics of Darwinism often are really attacking those who claim neo-Darwinism explains everything. But this seems to be tilting after windmills. Who is actually making these claims? Perhaps the New Atheists come closest, but even they don’t go that far. Further even if there is a small group making neo-Darwinism apply to more than it does, so what? Why attack the whole because of that small group? It’s like anti-Mormons attacking Mormonism because of the Mountain Meadows Massacre or because they met some missionary who was an idiot. |
Jack, You’re right. “System of belief” is the wrong term. I’m comfortable using theory or explanation, and I appreciate the correction. And I also agree that the other questions you raise are legitimate questions, and that they are more properly addressed by religion or philosophy. |
Mark Brown, Wow. Thanks for the response. It’s a rare privilege to correct someone as well informed as you seem to be–though I really wouldn’t presume. My intention in these kinds of discussions is usually to gnash at people’s heels. ;>) Clark, I think one of the reasons why so many seem to react the way you’ve described above is because they feel there’s a double standard with regard to dogmatism. |
I see I have almost completely failed to make my point. The experiment DKL suggests is a simple one, if we are trying to prove that natural selection exists. The results of that particular experiment are not in dispute, even by a hard-line creationist. I am asking something different, which is: (a) are there other principles that could, in certain situations, operate alongside, or perhaps instead of, natural selection, and (b) how would we construct an experiment to determine it? Another way to look at it is the question of generalizability: Sure, natural selection works on bacteria in a petri dish and a host of other places, but are there places where it doesn’t work? I am saying no one is really asking these questions. I’m not trying to claim that these experiments would prove natural selection doesn’t always operate, I have no idea. My points are more modest: (a) such experiments, due to the philosophical nature of the way Darwinian theory is formulated, are very hard to construct and therefore renders the theory, from a philosophy of science standpoint, somewhat deficient, and (b) no one is even trying. DKL’s experiment is the equivalent of putting two masses on a balance to show they are not equal. I am proposing the biological equivalent of asking, what would happen if you accelerated one of those masses to a relativistic velocity? Much harder to do that experiment, but it’s only through experiments like that where we realize the limits of Newtonian physics and a more fundamental and the more universal theory that actually undergirds it. Even after Einstein did that, in our frame, two masses weighed different amounts. But everything about what that meant changed. Clark #33: There are actually a lot of people who claim that. I mentioned E.O. Wilson. I could say T.H. and Julian Huxley, probably Thomas Dewey and Nietzsche, certainly proto-Nazi Ernst Haeckel and also Richard Dawkins. And Darwin himself. I’ll have more to say about this later, but here’s a very interesting article by John C. Greene for your to read. One key passage, where the emphasis I added highlights why this is so very important:
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I just posted a comment which had a lot of links in it. It was probably marked as spam. |
Jack, I’m not sure that’s true though. I understand that’s why some feel this way. However typically the New Atheists are seen as dogmatic. They really don’t have much of a good reputation. I mean Dawkins’ views on religion aren’t seen as mainstream at all. The common epithet is that they are fundamentalists just the same way many Evangelicals are. In either case, what bothers me is that Darwinism itself is viewed negatively because of this. That’s as silly as agnostics viewing Christianity negatively because of some radical Evangelicals. Jeff, I don’t think you can say no one is trying to falsify natural selection. Now you might say that the ID folks aren’t doing a terribly good job of trying. However even beyond that asking where natural selection might not work is akin to asking where in the universe general relativity might not work. It’s a meaningful question but it’s hard to imagine how one could answer it. I don’t think it’s a strike at all against the theory. Rather it’s just the very nature of induction. When we find more and more places where it does work and not problems where it doesn’t we are justified in attributing more strength to the theory. Regarding who makes the claims about Darwinism, look at how small the group is you list though. Relative to all the biologists out there. I think you just made my point. |
The core issue here is whether Jesus came from a monkey. I say, “Of course he did.” |
Clark, What I have a problem with is that the sciences–evolution in particular–seem to form the basis of a culturally acceptable world-view in the public forum–almost at the exclusion of religion. And the great irony in doing so is that one must exercise faith, even if only intuitively. That is, unless one can prove that Darwinism provides a better framework for understanding the meaning of existence than any religion ever did. |
Well, since my comment hasn’t come back, I’ll repost my links. Jeff, your post seems to be more about adaptationism more than anything else. Here’s a wonderful overview of the concept: To see how these debates between Gould and the “fundamentalist Darwinians” have playing out, follow the links in the first note: |
I completely agree that Darwin’s THEORY of Evolution is just that. I was disturbed when I read somewhere VERY recently that some Democratic Representatives in Texas were working toward removal of Creationist theory in the Science textbooks! Why is it that it’s okay to present only ONE theory? Shouldn’t we be teaching our children? Doesn’t teaching involve presentation of many ways of thinking and allowing THOUGHT to take place and then the child makes up his or her own mind!?? Not so for those Texas Reps, I guess! Thank you for writing on this subject and stressing the THEORY aspect. I think it’s not considered nearly enough. |
Tori, Two thumbs up. Thank you for your contribution here. You have demonstrated better than any argument anybody can make the real problem with science teaching in public schools. Some people don’t realize that the Democrats want to take creationism out of science textbooks. THanks for sounding the voice of warning. |
Tori, Creationism should not be taught as a hard science as there is no scientific basis for it. However, I’m not opposed to children being taught in a social science or philosophy or even history course many of the ways that human beings have of explaining their own existence. Such should include learning something of various religious and cultural perspectives both ancient and modern. |
Pssst, guys. Didn’t you get the memo? You know, the one that come out about 10 years ago, from the Discovery Institute? We don’t say creationism anymore. The preferred term is Intelligent Design. We do not want “the other side” to think we are nothing but a bunch of conservative religious nuts. |
For those residents of the Lone Star state who resent the Democrats cramming their Godless, materialist agenda down the throats of the public, I can recommend a visit to the Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose, Texas. http://www.creationevidence.org/ You can find exhibits there approved by people with actual PhDs in science, among them Dr. Michael Behe of the Discovery Institute, which absolutely shred the Darwinian heresy. This museum has proof, proof that homo sapiens (if you will pardon the h-word) wearing sandals co-existed with dinosaurs. |
Mark Brown, Yes, I did get the memo–I used “Creationism” to answer Tori’s comment about Creationist Theory. And I agree that ID should not be taught as a science. Though I have no problem with it being discussed in the other forums I suggested above. That said, I think I interpret the “memo” a little differently than you do. The way I see it–some folks have taken the opportunity to piggy back their die-hard creationist philosophy on ID–which they feel is inclusive of Creationism. Now, while some die-hard IDers may be creationists at heart, some plainly are not. I would not label Behe as a creationist–at least not in the way their detractors do. I don’t think one who believes in an old Earth and who accepts common descent as irrefutable or even believes that evolution is indeed at work in large measure–though not to the degree that the consensus believes–can be considered a “true” creationist. |
My theory is that creationism/ID was created by Satan as a stumbling block to true knowledge in the Latter-days. Those who advance it in the face of good science further the cause of evil in this world. |
Note that Satan plays a prominent role in creationism theory while he is absent from Darwinism. |
good point, arj. |
Jack, And I agree that ID should not be taught as a science. I’m very happy to hear that, Jack. But that puts you at odds with the folks behind the wedge document. The document states (under 5 year goals) that they want ID to be an accepted alternative to science. Under 20 year goals, the want to see intelligent design theory accepted as the dominant perspective in science. These people are anti-science, period. |
Creationism is a religious doctrine for which primary evidence is derived from the scriptures. No matter how awkward some of its historical artifacts may be, it is the official doctrine of the LDS Church, among other many other denominations. Intelligent Design, on the other hand, is a philosophical position that maintains the necessary existence of teleological causation and the scientific hypothesis that this form of causation is empirically detectable.. Clearly these positions are related. The biggest difference is that ID does not entail theism, any more than materialism entails atheism. The odd thing about this debate is that everyone rushes to jump all over ID advocates for being motivated by religious considerations, when the big names in evolution regularly proclaim atheism from the rooftops. Take Dawkins The God Delusion for example. With such publications, is there any way we can doubt that his philosophical positions are biased in favor of hard materialism? That he enjoys evolutionary study in part because “it gives intellectual comfort to atheists”? Why the double standard? Shouldn’t we insist that all respectable people taking public positions on evolutionary causation refrain from publishing books (let alone internal memos) about their private religious, anti-religious, or philosophical positions? |
I’ll offer a slight correction, Mark D. My objection is to ID people claiming that ID does not entail theism, when the wedge document that so many of them ratified clearly shows that they think it does, but they are going to keep quiet for the sake of PR. It is the dishonesty behind their position which is annoying, and which the judge found so damning in Kitzmiller v. Dover. |
Mark D: Creationism is a religious doctrine for which primary evidence is derived from the scriptures. No matter how awkward some of its historical artifacts may be, it is the official doctrine of the LDS Church…. It most certainly is not the official doctrine of the LDS church. The official doctrine of the LDS church is neutrality. Whatever some outspoken leaders may have said to encourage people to forsake the truth in favor of the Satanic doctrine of Creationism, that is (at best) their own philosophies as men mingled with scripture. |
DKL, The official doctrine of the Church is that God is the Creator. |
Jack, saying “God is the Creator, therefore creationism is true” is like saying, “Got is material, therefore materialism is true.” Here’s a link to a collection of statements on evolution. The first presidency statements merely affirm the scriptural notion that God created man in his own image and is the child of God. But it does not say when the creation took place or whether it was effected gradually or suddenly. It does not say whether this is incompatible with the findings of science. LDS Church President and Mormon Prophet David McKay wrote to William Stokes, that “On the subject of organic evolution the Church has officially taken no position.” He expressly disavows the doctrinal orthodoxy of Joseph Fielding Smith’s Man, His Origin and Destiny, which advances the Satanic doctrine of Creationism, which the adversary introduced to be a stumbling block to true knowledge in the latter-days. When it comes to Creationism, this is all you need to know: If you believe it, then you will be damned as one who rejects the true light of knowledge, all of which comes from God. The parable of the talents teaches us that those God-given gifts that you fail to use (including cognition and ratiocination) will be confiscated for all eternity. Creationists will be resurrected as morons. |
The only tenet that I accept from the creationist doctrine is that God is the Creator. And the irony is: It is THAT one significant detail–the oversight or perhaps out and out rejection of which will cause more to miss the mark than all the silly creationist notions that could ever be invented by overzealous religious fanatics who refuse to give scientific truth the slightest benefit of the doubt. |
And … I should add, that’s the way the devil really plays his game: A whole lot of truth in the sights but the cross hairs are ever so slightly off the target. |
Mark Brown, There is no question that many of the leading ID advocates think that ID will make the intellectual environment more hospitable for theism. On the other hand, many of the leading (hard) materialism advocates maintain that materialism makes the environment more hospitable for atheism. q.v. Dawkins, Richard G. |
DKL, I think you are incorrectly concluding that Church teaching creationism is mutually exclusive with neutrality on evolution. That is not the case. Many forms of creationism simply maintain that God used evolution – that he either wound up the clock and let it go, or that he guided the evolutionary process, and so on. As far as Church doctrine is concerned, I refer you to Elder Russell M. Nelson’s April 2000 conference talk, “The Creation”, recorded in the May 2000 Ensign:
The suggestion that the Church is not creationist in some sense or another is tantamount to the proposition that the Church leadership spends considerable time and energy teaching doctrines in General Conference that they neither believe nor consider consequential. |
Mark D, you’re equivocating the terms “Creator” and its cognate “Creationism.” The bare belief that there is a God who is, in some sense, responsible for the universe is not sufficient to constitute belief in Creationism. Even deists believe that God is the creator. Some agnostics believe in a creator, but just believe that her traits are utterly unknowable. Thus, belief in a Creator is not sufficient condition for belief in Creationism, and it’s fallacious to infer the latter from the former. It’s a shame that the evil influence of the Satanic doctrine of Creationism has led so many Mormons to apostatize from the light of God by denying the truth that He has made so obvious to our senses. Satan is the Father of Lies, and therefore the Father of Creationism. |
Mark D, if ID presented itself as a set of philosophical arguments then I don’t think most people would care. Heaven knows there’s lots of different philosophical positions. The problem is that this is not how they’ve portrayed themselves and that’s why so many get incensed by ID. I also agree with DKL that “creationism” gets equivocated over a lot. There’s no doubt Dawkins is a hard physicalist and atheist. But once again the issue really isn’t people having a position on such matters but how they portray themselves. (Although personally I think Dawkins is rather ignorant of philosophy and it shows when he attempts to speak on the issues) |
Clark, Dawkins and the ID folks have one major thing in common. Both agree that the idea of non-overlapping magisteria is untenable. I can understand why people get irritated at premature attempts to make reference to ID in public school classrooms. I don’t think it is reasonable, however, to get incensed that some people are diligently working to make the case that Science has a faulty demarcation hypothesis. I tire of reading criticisms of ID that do not demonstrate the most passing familiarity with both the philosophical and the empirical ground upon which the real debate will be decided. I hold the position that anything true is empirically testable in principle, and that anything that cannot be tested in principle has a rather tenuous claim to truth. Take spirit matter for example. If it cannot be detected in principle, it doesn’t exist. Same thing with teleology. |
Mark D: If it cannot be detected in principle, it doesn’t exist. Sounds awfully close to verificationism. I love it. I thought I was the only verificationist on the ‘nacle. |
DKL, You have a choice. Either the Church teaches the evil bad version of creationism or some watered down mild version of creationism. Take your pick. Ultimately, the most reliable guide to the meaning of a term is its etymology. Connotations come and go, but denotation is eternal. |
DKL, The difference between my position and that of more conventional verificationists no doubt lies in the interpretation of the qualification “in principle”. |
This is rubbish. Etymology exists precisely because denotation, along with everything else in language, inevitably changes over time. |
Good point, Orwell. It’s also worth pointing out that etymology has no bearing on actual usage. |
DKL, 48: “My theory is that creationism/ID was created by Satan” Thanks for writing this. For that statement alone, you deserve some sort of Blogging Nobel Prize. |
Orwell, The claim to be “eternal” should clearly be taken as hyperbole for “rather more lasting and definite”. My more specific claim is two fold: (1) As a rule, the most reliable guide to the meaning of any term over time is its etymology. If that were not the case, etymology would be of no practical interest whatsoever. (2) As a prescriptive matter, radical departures from the etymological semantics of an existing term corrupt the language in a way that impedes all formal usage. I might add that so does a convenient insistence on reading connotation into denotation. Take the term “young earth creationist” for example. If connotation was reliable even over the period of a few years, the qualifier “young earth” would be superfluous and we would have to invent completely different terms for every minor doctrinal variation. That is not practical, leading to many different variations of “creationism”, the very existence of which minimizes connotation in favor of some shared denotation, the most reliable guide to which is the etymological or constructive origin of the term. The denial of this process for purposes of argument appears to be little more than opportunism. |
If you say so.
A word is an arbitrary symbol which only has meaning because a given linguistic community accepts it. Etymology is a branch of historical linguistics that studies the origins and evolution of words, but it has absolutely no authority over current denotation or connotation. It is in no way a guide to present-day meaning. In terms of determining the current acceptance of a word, you are right, etymology, or “a word’s meaning over time,” is of “no practical interest.”
Just by using the word “corrupt” you imply that there is some kind of pure form of a given language that can be corrupted. Whatever the linguistic community accepts is language – questions of purity are totally irrelevant. Context is everything. This has always been the case, and formal language still survives.
I’m not in the business of aiding or undermining anyone else’s argument here, I merely object to you appealing to etymology as an authority on current usage or acceptance. The irony of your entire last comment is that the words you throw around (etymology, connotation, denotation, semantics) while arguing in favor of denotative meaning betray your complete ignorance of their denotation. |
Orwell, The idea that “a word’s meaning over time” has no bearing on a term’s present meaning is statistically unsustainable. Take a large sample of Latin-derived English terms and the overwhelming majority will have formal usage that is closely related to that of the original roots. In addition, the second half of my argument is prescriptive, not descriptive, and your counterargument does not address any prescriptive issues, and therefore fails to counter any prescriptive position. Finally, you conclude by attempting to establish a contrary position with regard to the philosophy of language from personal authority, which as arguments go is an amazingly weak one. |
You’ve entirely missed the point. Words are arbitrary; that is basic linguistics. Etymology only studies how they have evolved, but showing that a word meant “x” at a given point in time holds no authority over its present meaning. If it’s still “x,” it’s because the linguistic community still accepts it. If it is “y,” it is because the community now accepts something else, its etymology notwithstanding. English words with Latin roots do not retain their meanings because they have Latin roots. They retain them because the community still accepts them. If you cannot understand that important distinction, you have no business discussing linguistics.
A prescriptive approach to linguistics is only useful as a concession to practicality in codifying how current linguistic trends have coalesced. Theoretically, or as a global way of approaching the subject, it is unsustainable because there is no ultimate prescriptive ideal. Justifying your prescriptive approach by way of etymology bases your argument on an innately descriptive field of study. Holding up any given work or person as authority creates an arbitrary ideal which is, again, rooted in description. No matter how you spin it, prescription always depends on description.
My conclusion is my own observation based on the evidence, to which I would like to add that you clearly are not equipped to discuss linguistics beyond a very superficial level. |
Orwell, This is becoming a major threadjack and I am not inclined to discuss the issue further with someone who spares no opportunity to insult and condescend. All I will say is that of course the association between signifier and signified is synthetic, contingent, and artificial and I have never argued otherwise. |
You know Mark, as for being condescending, the door swings both ways. No excuses, though – I know better and would like to sincerely apologize. I’ve actually enjoyed our little discussion, but I don’t mind ending it now. No hard feelings for my part and I’m sure any future exchanges that we have will be more civil. |
Mark D: DKL, You have a choice. Either the Church teaches the evil bad version of creationism or some watered down mild version of creationism. Take your pick. No, Mark D, you have a choice: “to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27) Evolution is the order of Eternal progression and therefore the order of Godliness. The Satanic doctrine of Creationism runs counter to the purpose and intent of God, for God has said, “I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.” (2 Nephi 28:30) The Satanic doctrine of Creationism says, “Biological progression! Biological progression! We have got a biological progression and there cannot be any more biological progression.” To which the Lord God responds, “O fools, you have biological progression, and it proceeded forth from evolution. And what thank you evolution for the biological progression which you received from it.” Thus, Creationism is Satan’s plan, for it seeks to rob us of our sacred agency. Only the truth of Evolution as God has made manifest in the Universe acknowledges that biological progression occurs line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. This is the plan that Christ proposed in pre-mortality, and all those who have been exposed to the light of the truth of evolution but rail against it and deny it will be cast out from the presence of God. The truth is that the church teaches no form of Creationism at all, because it is a Satanic doctrine and the church does not teach Satanic doctrines. The choice that you offer is the choice of wickedness. Too many Mormons have followed Satan and embraced creationism, and their souls shall be carried down into captivity and death according to the captivity and power of the devil, just as God turned away the virgins who did not bring enough oil. So go ahead, Mark D: Believe in the Satanic doctrine of Creationism and forfeit your soul to the buffetings of the adversary. |
I don’t think we need the devil to help us with any buffeting around here. |
[...] And then DKL gets all chavtastic on his ass. [...] |
There are different sorts of verificationalism than just positivism. I subscribe to the Peircean sort myself. |
Welcome aboard the crazy train, Clark! |
Orwell, Thanks for the apology. I don’t mind anything you have said except for the assertions that I clearly do not understand what I am talking about. I don’t think that is fair. On further investigation, I did find it surprising to discover that the term denotation is used in two radically conflicting senses in the humanities, one of which I was not familiar with. I was using the sense “the literal meaning or ‘dictionary definition’ of a term”. The other sense is the extension of a set. In a debate about universals, those two senses are on opposite sides of the question. One says here is what a term has been used to refer to in the past and that which it therefore means (an extensional definition), and the other says here is an abstract idea that may have many variations, including ones that do not yet exist (an intensional definition). I believe that intensional definitions are cleaner, but more to the point, I am surprised that the term “denotation” is regularly used in both intensional and extensional senses, and “connotation” regularly used in both accidental and intensional senses. (I was using “denotation” in the intensional sense and “connotation” in the accidental sense). I am not sure which senses you were referring to, but it might explain the confusion. |
“Those who assume hypotheses as first principles of their speculations… may indeed form an ingenious romance, but a romance it will still be.” Roger Cotes, |
Boy. What a bunch of big words and smart people arguing about big cheese stuff. Two points: okay, a question..don’t most scientists end up believing in God and marveling at the unexplainable marvels of the world? And, the strongest don’t always survive. Thinking of natural disasters and oh let’s say the holocaust, a lot of the time the most worthless survive through sheer happenstance. They talk about how they got off the sinking ship or the burning plane but the best of the bunch died. I don’t know how that fits either theory but I reject “there are no accidents” sometimes there are accidents and stuff just happens. |
“don’t most scientists end up believing in God and marveling at the unexplainable marvels of the world?” Not in my experience. Nearly all of the scientists I work with are atheists (or devout atheists, if such a term exists). To be fair, I am in the biological sciences, and it seems to me that believing scientists can be found in other fields (physics, chemistry….) |
Well, Mark, I do appreciate the diplomatic tone of your last comment. However, all of my responses assumed you were referring to denotation in the intensional sense. But even if you reinterpreted everything from an extensional perspective, the thrust of the argument is still the same. The main issue here is that you originally appealed to etymology and prescription for linguistic authority. I have already explained why this doesn’t work, so I will consider that matter closed. I really am sorry for having been condescending, so let me explain why I reacted the way that I did. Simply put, these are the sorts of ideas that aren’t taken seriously in the field: bringing up the corruption of formal language and invoking Latin in this context smack of naïveté, and points like the two in #70 would most likely provoke laughter among linguists. These are observations based on my experience, however. As you are well aware, you don’t need to believe anything that I say and are perfectly entitled to your own opinions. Feel free to disagree. I’m just some guy on the internet, after all. Perhaps if we spoke in person this would be really easy to clear up – but I confess that I don’t have the patience to bang it out in this forum. Please believe that I say all of this without malice. Thanks again for the discussion. I will now return to my regular policy of never saying anything serious. |
And, the strongest don’t always survive. Thinking of natural disasters and oh let’s say the holocaust, a lot of the time the most worthless survive through sheer happenstance. They talk about how they got off the sinking ship or the burning plane but the best of the bunch died. Actually, it has nothing to do with “strength”. It has everything to do with “fitness”. I imagine that if you were to go look at the people who survive accidents, it’s because of decisions they made that served them well. |
Orwell, I don’t care if the whole field of linguistics holds such positions to a man (or woman). If you cannot step beyond sneering condescension and actually explain to a neutral observer why and how those conclusions are justified, such comments are a complete waste for anything beyond parochial self-congratulation. The very least you could do is indicate that contemporary linguistics rejects that hypothesis and here is where you can read more about why. As it is you have not given me a single reason to doubt that anything I said isn’t absolutely correct. What a pathetic waste of effort. |
Orwell, Of course you did elucidate a large number of things that I have no disagreement with. However, the dispute turns around a small number of points where I think you radically oversimplify. In other words, from my reading your explanation used enough obvious, unjustified, or undocumented non sequiturs that I couldn’t be persuaded that what you claim is universally held by contemporary linguists is any more than prevailing academic fashion. In particular your argument used a large number of doctrinal rules of thumb to establish points that cannot possibly be considered exceptionless or statistically viable to any objective observer. |
Harsh, Mark. Just trying to keep it real. [Sigh] I guess I won’t disagree with you on the wasted effort. Having said all that, I’ll concede your point about how I should have proceeded in #85. That would have been much more appropriate and certainly more in tune with the spirit in which I wrote it. I have adequately articulated for you the problems in what you have written from the perspective of contemporary linguistics. You haven’t really responded to any of it yet anyway, but I’ll humor you. Quite honestly, I could point you pretty much anywhere. I don’t know your background, so I don’t always know what details you need me to provide for you. This isn’t linguistics 101 and I’m not going to build everything from the ground up – I don’t want to insult your intelligence and I have better things to do. I have been speaking in largely theoretical terms, though, which is by nature somewhat essentialist. I certainly won’t state unequivocally that there aren’t any exceptions to what I’ve written. Most of the books I have personally read on the subject are not in English, and a lot of good sources on the issue speak extensively about particulars in specific languages, which can be tiresome if you’re not familiar with that particular language (this isn’t a slight on anyone, I feel that way). But, if you browse any scholarly archive like JSTOR you can quickly discover that nothing I have said is particularly remarkable or even new in the field, just basic stuff. Here are two quick examples that keep to English (mostly) and are not entrenched in jargon, the first from 1938, the second from 1962 (I think the links should still work even if you don’t have a JSTOR account, but I’ve quoted some short passages anyway): Etymology and Interpretation Abstract:
The Place of Etymology in Linguistics
I apologize once more for any offense. I really am done with this, though. Think what you want, it doesn’t matter to me. |
Addendum to paragraph 2: For example, you might be surprised to find out that I have a healthy respect for many aspects of the prescriptive approach and won’t deny that they have their time and place. I also appreciate and enjoy etymology for a variety of reasons. Both have enormous practical applications in the appropriate context. Again, I really don’t think it would be that hard for us to come to an understanding in person. But those are the breaks. I wish you the best. Orwell out. |
Orwell, (recognizing you don’t need to respond), I have made a descriptive argument about a expected historical time-averaged statistical semantics of a term that is directly supported by the concluding sentence of the first quote. If my assertion about the statistically expected meaning of a term wasn’t correct the so called “weak staff” wouldn’t be a staff at all, and there could be no rational basis for resorting to it ever. My second assertion was prescriptive in nature, namely that the efficiency of formal usage is optimal over time when preference is made to constructive (etymological) rather than accidental semantics. As a practical matter that is the pre-eminent rule of all systems of formal nomenclature, all deterministic grammars and every computer language in existence. It is such a slam dunk that any well educated computer scientist could write a mathematical demonstration of that assertion from neutral assumptions, using well established principles of information theory. To the degree that it makes any difference it is one of those things that most computer scientists know instinctively. No one ever sets out to develop an erratic, non-constructive, or non-deterministic formal language for real world applications. If there is a disagreement it is perhaps because most computer science types necessarily spend their lives formalizing the intractable and informal, where descriptive linguistics is apparently largely occupied with documenting the informal and intractable in its wild and unmanageable state. |
Correction: “the expected time averaged…” Addendum: I should add that I don’t think that any argument from authority is conclusive, I summarize purely for the purposes of establishing that there are other contemporary schools of thought on the matter, even if they do not rise to the attention of the departments of linguistics. |
JB: “I am asking something different, which is: (a) are there other principles that could, in certain situations, operate alongside, or perhaps instead of, natural selection…?” It appears to be a fair question, and insightful. However, this is exactly the question the science of evolutionary theory has been asking for 150 years. Your assumption that the theory of evolution has not changed or added to the original “natural selection” concept as outlined by Darwin, points out the fatal flaw in your entire article. You don’t seem to realize that the current version of the robust and comprehensive model which we call the Theory of Evolution, has grown far beyond the 1859 concept of “natural selection”. You’re arguing that “Darwinian evolution” should be more seriously vetted. What do you think biological science has been doing the last 150 years?? It’s not that you are unintelligent. You just make some assumptions about evolution that are erroneous. That was evident with your first description of evolutionary theory as “Darwinian evolution”. For future reference, the DEAD GIVEAWAY that a person does not understand evolution enough to make a reasonable argument about the science of it, is calling it “Darwinism” or “Darwinian Evolution”, or calling scientists in the field of evolution “Darwinists”. Evolution as a science has developed over the last 150 years to the point where the current model includes various mechanisms other than or in concert with natural selection. The science is specifically observing and hypothesizing and testing the manifestations of those processes. Evolution is not just “natural selection”. The theory includes other equally powerful ingredients such as genetic drift and punctuated equilibrium, to name a mere two. The question of yours which I quoted is in fact the main function of the 15 decades of scientific inquiry into evolution since Darwin first outlined the issue. Evolution as a field of study is no more “Darwinian” than the study of the physics of Gravity is “Newtonian”. Both founders of their fields described phenomena. The sciences surrounding the phenomena since then have worked on the various hows and why’s and have greatly transformed the original concepts through observation, testing, further hypothesizing and discovering. So while your question is very insightful it is also very revealing. You asked the question as if it is not already an integral part of the science and theory of evolution already. |
Yeah, well, I should just quit with the continued protestations that I am finished here. It’s obvious that I can’t stay away.
The fact that you think that helps your case only further demonstrates your inability to perceive context here. Mark, you’ve been looking at this backwards the whole time. Your continued insistence that, statistically, your argument has merit only demonstrates that you didn’t understand the heart of the matter to begin with. For example:
This is absolutely correct. However, somewhere along the line you fail to grasp the bigger picture. You originally invoked etymology to justify how you choose to interpret a word’s current usage. As I, DKL, and both of these articles have pointed out, etymology does not determine current usage – denotation or connotation. Only acceptance by a linguistic community, i.e. usage, can do that. Etymology is used to predict probability of how a term is accepted in a given context when actual acceptance is unknown. That has never been the case here. Citing the formal usage of words with Latin roots, prescriptive justifications, or statistical models simply are not relevant in this context. Your argument has been one big glaring non sequitur all along. This is such a slam dunk that anyone marginally educated in linguistics can instinctively see it from the get-go. In fact, it is so obvious that even people with no linguistics training whatsoever can generally comprehend the difference very quickly.
This doubtless true, but this is not how language develops and, again, is completely irrelevant in this context.
This is probably the closest I can expect you to get to admitting you were wrong. I think I’ve been more than fair in acknowledging that much of what you have said is true, even though it does not apply in this case. Congratulations on your computer science skills and all, but they can’t save you here. Here’s your original point. Even adjusting for your alleged hyperbole, there is no denying that it simply doesn’t hold up in a current, known context:
I don’t think you’re stupid, so, at this point, I can only conclude that either your professional biases have blinded you (no shame in that, it happens to everyone), or you can see your mistake and are just trying to prop up your pride with obsfucation. |
Orwell and Mark, The use of a word or phrase within a language may change depending on how well it fits the environment or if another word or form takes its place. In societies which may have originally shared a common language but have been separated physically or politically for an extended period of time, hundreds of years or more, the languages morph independently until they can no longer “interbreed” and are distict languages which are not easily understood by the speakers of each other. They each have the same commom ancestor and much shared genetic material but now make up completely separate species. A critic of evolution might us the argument that although species adapt, or change a little over time, no species suddenly changes to another. Their argument is that no one has “witnessed” one species changing to another. They might want to look at language as evolution on a shorter time-frame. The mechanisms are similar. |
Yes, don, I’ve actually been thinking about making a comment along those lines – it really hasn’t been much of a threadjack. I just decided that I was content keeping things to one front for the time being. |
Are suggesting that language has evolved without any intelligent input? |
I don’t know if you’re addressing myself or don; but I’m not suggesting anything at all. This is exactly why I decided not to make any comment of the kind to begin with. If you’re just parodying how pretty much any comment on this thread will result in someone jumping all over you for it (of which I recognize that I am very guilty), then well played. |
Well, it was sort of an intuitive leap from the last paragraph of comment #95. I don’t think the development of language is going to have much convincing power as an analog to biological evolution–for the critics of evolution, that is. |
Orwell, You said:
Hardly. You are wildly misreading a prescriptive position about recommended prospective usage as a descriptive position about what present usage actually is. I have never made a claim that what I recommend as the prospective baseline usage of the term creationism actually predominates in real life. This whole discussion is an empirical demonstration that such usage does not predominate.
Absolutely. Where have I ever argued otherwise?
Yes. It is an absolute slam dunk to establish a proposition that no educated person disagrees with. You have been beating a straw man to death. The semantic model I am defending here is that various time variant usages of a term statistically share common semantic features X and that the use at any given time has additional accidental and unpredictable features Y. You claim that I claim that X + Y = X for any time t. That is positively ridiculous. My actual claim is that if speakers try to prospectively minimize Y where practical to do so, then communications efficiency will be enhanced and confusion will be reduced due to the relative reduction in accidental features Y, many of which are the subject of endless disputes among contemporary speakers. I don’t think you would have made this mistake if you took my immediate explanation seriously that my descriptive claim was about X (long run shared features) not X + Y (prevailing contemporary usage, and my prescriptive claim was about the advantages of the prospective minimization of Y. In other words, you have demonstrated an inability to distinguish between claims of what X is, what Y is now, and what Y ideally should be. In addition, you refuse to believe my immediate insistence that my use of “eternal” was a casual metaphorical reference to X, not X + Y, where I was using time averaged “denotation” as an approximation of X and “connotation” as an approximation of Y. So I guess you can congratulate yourself for disproving ridiculous hypothetical claims that I never made, and which the most casual inquiry would (and did) establish that I never made. The only thing you have established is that making a man an offender for a metaphor and assuming that the clarification is given in bad faith is a good way to waste time. |
Okay, let’s try this one last time. I don’t think that hyperbole or metaphor makes a difference. Nothing changes when we adjust for that. Denotation, to use the intensional definition (that you provided), is “the literal meaning or ‘dictionary definition’ of a term.” Now, is a word’s denotation lasting and definite? Sure, often. Denotation does tend to remain stable for a fair amount of time because it has been, by definition, codified for the sake of practicality. Since its parameters are set by codification, it is fair to say that it is definite, practically speaking (as far as language can ever be said to be definite). However, being “lasting,” “definite,” or “codified” does not privilege denotation over connotation (assuming they are contemporaries) with regard to meaning in any context. Prevailing usage is the only measure of reliable meaning because meaning, in principle, is derived from usage, not from the codification of usage. Clearly, codification can influence usage, and therefore meaning, but ultimately meaning is determined only by usage, by what a given linguistic community accepts. So, you defended your equivocation of “Creationism” and “creator” with the following (all hyperbole aside):
Reading this statement as privileging etymological precedent and the prescriptive use of denotation as more reliable in terms of determining meaning than current, predominant use (in this case, the connotation generally accepted on this thread) is logical and reasonable, especially considering the equivocation that prompted it. I have only submitted that usage is a more reliable guide to meaning than etymology and denotation. You further explained yourself thus:
Later on in our discussion, I believe that we both agreed on the appropriate use of etymology. However, in the context that you made this comment, as a clarification of you previous statement, my opinion is that it doesn’t clarify anything. It only makes your approach to meaning appear more prescriptive.
All current language is fluid, even what we call “formal language.” It cannot be corrupted because “purity” is impossible to establish since meaning derives from usage that is continually in flux. Departures in meaning (e.g. by way of connotation) do not, in any way, impede formal usage because “formal” meaning is changed by “formal” usage, not vice versa. You then continue by stating that connotation often coalesces as some new “shared denotation.” Absolutely, this happens all the time. You follow this by calling the “etymological or constructive origin of the term” the “most reliable guide” to this new denotation. Sure, the most reliable guide to denotation may be how it is codified, but this is a moot point. We have already established (repeatedly) that denotation is not necessarily synonymous with meaning in a given context. None of this appears to respond to my original criticism (in 71), that you appeared to be justifying your equivocation of current usage through etymology. Your subsequent statistical models address other issues entirely. Finally, in your most recent comment, you begin with this:
And clarify your original position with this:
This is all very well, but it is the first time that you have adequately articulated anything of the sort. I do not believe that your original comment or subsequent clarifications did a very good job of specifying that you are only taking “a prescriptive position about recommended prospective usage.” Rather, I believe I have shown my interpretation of your comments to be quite logical and reasonable. In conclusion, if you want to go on record now with the argument that I have just quoted, that’s fine, though I don’t think anyone could be blamed for finding it somewhat revisionist. At the very least, if you want to call a straw man, there is ample evidence that you helped to stuff the fellow, if only inadvertently. However, I really would like to give you the benefit of the doubt on the matter and take this particular clarification at face value, or “seriously” (as you suggest). Why? 1. First of all, I think we can both agree that our professional biases have affected (at least initially) what we have read into each others’ comments, which has resulted in a fair amount of talking past each other. 2. I don’t think either of us disputes the arguments spelled out in our two most recent comments (94 and 100) when accepted on their own terms (clearly, this blanket acceptance doesn’t include aspersions on each other’s intelligence). In other words, we’re basically in agreement now, so why should we keep this up? The only thing that remains to argue about at this point is who deserves the blame for how we arrived at the misunderstanding to begin with. I have tried to explain my perspective in this comment for your convenience, but I am willing to concede that, from your point of view, you might be able to say many of the same things to me. (Besides, if we were to go that route – the blame game, that is – it would never end since, though I make no assumptions about the size of your ego, mine is enormous and would never surrender). 3. I hate myself when I get this confrontational in internet discussions. It is a problem that I recognize in nature that I would really like to eliminate (this is why I usually elect to stay out of things like this). I know I’ve already apologized for some of the disrespect I have shown you (only to get carried away again), but I would like to do so one final time. I respect the relative restraint you have shown in not resorting to the same level of discourse. 4. I’m tired of this anyway, aren’t you? Let’s just agree to end this amicably and call it a day. I can sincerely say that I harbor no hard feelings and hope you’ll continue to comment around here. I’m happy to shake hands and be friends. |
Second-to-last paragraph (item 3), read: “It is a problem that I recognize in my nature that I would really like to eliminate [...]“ |
Mark D, Orwell is right. Not just for all the reasons he states, but because your epistemology is half-baked. I consider the best essays on theory of meaning to be Frege’s On Sense and Reference and Russell’s On Denoting. They’re just essays and (aside from Russell’s rather difficult refutation of Frege’s distinction between Sense and Reference) they’re not difficult works. If you have more time, pick up Hockberg’s Thought, Fact, and Reference and Kripke’s Naming and Necessity. If you become a student of those, you’ll have a good basis to argue the finer points of meaning with most people. |
Orwell, You keep trying to argue against positions I don’t hold. Now that I have made what I intended to convey perfectly clear, I don’t think there is a live dispute here. I have no desire to continue this diversion. DKL: I am pleased to know that you think my epistemology is half baked. If perhaps you had given a reason for that conclusion, I might have something intelligent to say in response. |
Orwell, (reading on) I guess we agree then. I will be more careful in the future, especially when tempted to use a term contrary to its dictionary definition. (smile) |