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Is Intelligent Design a theory? In a word: No. |
It certainly isn’t a “scientific” theory. It’s more like a public relations theory. But we should not let the current culture war in this area remove us from belief in an eternal God who does things in his own way. |
or from belief in an eternal God who does things according to eternal laws. |
Intelligent design is not a theory – there has to be science behind a theory and relying on quacks like Bishop Usher is ridiculous. Therefore, I think we are wasting our time discussing this aspect. No scientist (even believing ones) would ever give credence to an idea which is not testable, nor is there any data to support it. |
Devyn S., |
Intelligent design theory is not testable, thus it is a concept only to be explained by logic not by empirical evidence . It may be a question of philosopy and not of science. |
Mark D, Any proposition derived from an argument is a “HYPOTHESIS.” |
ID, and refutation, with bonus Nobel prize from long, long ago. Say structure X is composed of A, B, and C, each necessary for function; that is A, B, and C together are “irreducibly complex.” However, the structure could have started out as A, B+, C, and D. B+ modified to take over the role of D, turning into B, and D dropped out. This gives us A, B, and C. Or, X was initially composed of A alone; B appeared, (perhaps as a result of the mutation of A into two copies of A (a common occurrence), and then as B could be used to perform some of the functions of A; A and B both modified in ways that made B required. Now A and B together appear to be irreducibly complex. This outcome of evolution was first spotted by the Nobel prize winning biologist H. J. Muller in papers that came out in 1919 and 1939. Specifically, the mechanisms go under the name Muller’s Morphs) |
Something went wrong with my Muller’s Morphs link. Sorry. Here’s the right one without trying to be all like cool and http’y. |
B. Tippetts, That is an unsupported assertion. djinn, “Magic” is generally understood as the violation of physical law. ID entails no such thing. Nor does it require that anything be unexplainable, it only hypothesizes that some things are unexplainable with reference to a number of empirically unestablished and artificially imposed constraints, such as hard materialism. In addition a historical failure of one ID-ish hypothesis does not establish that all possible approaches are so destined, let alone answer the general question. |
Mark D, “it only hypothesizes that some things are unexplainable with reference to a number of empirically unestablished and artificially imposed constraints, such as hard materialism” = magic. |
djinn, Your comment would be correct if it read: “it only hypothesizes that some things are unexplainable with reference to a number of empirically established and naturally imposed constraints” = magic. |
djinn, You implicitly take the position that anything that is not reductively physical (such as teleology) is “magic”. That is a nice opinion, but you haven’t given any justification for such an assertion, rendering your argument circular. |
What, exactly, is “not reductively physical?” |
Reductive physicalism is the position that all that exists can be explained in terms of reduction to physical and material entities of the sort that science now presently comprehends. It is more commonly known as hard materialism. It is associated with the idea that consciousness is an illusion and that purpose, intelligence, meaning, and the like are at best unnecessary abstractions of a world that can be fully explained without resort to any such concepts. |
Mark D – as DJINN stated, a proposition is a hypothesis. A hypothesis must then be tested and be validated to become a theory. A scientific theory must be testable as you say, but please let me know how you can test ID? Say a prayer and hope God answers and that is the test? Beyond that there is no test for it. Please enlighten me. |
Devyn S., The problem with this debate is that the definition of what is a “theory” is one of convention and usage. You can say in the context of such and such a “theory” must be tested and validated. I am using a more more general sense and I don’t know which context you are implicitly referring to. String theory has never been tested nor validated, for example. I don’t know anyone, however, who goes around arguing that string theory isn’t a theory. Furthermore, I find the assertion that a theory must be either tested or validated an unusually convenient and contra-historical presumption. |
Devyn S., With regard to testability, the question is still up in the air. I maintain that if teleological factors are real, there must in principle be some test that can demonstrate that is the case. For practical reasons, I think that the most likely avenue for such a demonstration is an argument from statistical mechanics, but I admit that the necessary metric for making any such argument rigorous does not yet exist. If someone wanted to take the opposite side of the question, they could either construct a similar mathematical proof showing that it is not only possible but likely in the complete absence of teleology. Alternatively one could develop a computer simulation that reliably turns random inputs into something of unchallengeable biological complexity with resort to nothing other than simple transition rules akin to the known laws of physics. |
Mark D, I know plenty of people who go around arguing string theory isn’t a scientific theory. (Just check out Peter Woit’s blog) Regarding a test for teleology, I think the problem is that the kind of teleology ID proponents usually propose (God) makes the endeavor rather futile. |
To add, I suspect eventually there will be computing power sufficient to model say a bacteria and tract its evolution. At which point I’m sure ID proponents will simply say it’s not good enough. They want someone to produce a fish or the like… |
ID is a conspiracy theory, and a fortiori a theory. With a conspiracy theory, you try to problematize prevailing opinions, offer some wild-ass theory with enough auxiliary hypotheses to provide a cure-all to all of the supposed problems, make the theory the result of some eerily powerful but largely unintelligible mastermind, and attack the motives of skeptics. That’s ID in a nutshell. God bears the same relation to credible theories of biological development that Solomon Spalding does to credible theories of Book of Mormon authorship. You can’t just say, “Evolution has this problem explaining biological development, so that means that God is responsible for biological development in some way that evolution cannot account for.” That’s like saying, “Prevailing economic theory cannot decisively explain the banking crisis, so that means that Jews are responsible for the banking crisis in some way that prevailing economic theory cannot account for.” The most you can say is this:
Injecting God into scientific theories in order to solve their shortcomings merely eliminates the need to do further research. Indeed, these days, with the access that we have to the history of scientific knowledge, you have to be an idiot to believe that science has ever justified the belief that God is necessary to explain how the world works. God is not an idiot, and it follows immediately from this that God does not believe that it’s necessary to inject Himself into scientific theories. I recommend that ID proponents behave in a more Christ-like manner, and follow His example by dropping their belief that He needs to be injected into scientific theories. |
ID Theory plays into the hands of those who really like to throw around the expression, “Well, how do you explain this?!” The “this” can be a myriad of things but often is tossed in the general direction of those who cling to science as the explanation of all the things in the world around them. I can tell you, however, from living with one of these scientists for quite some time now that they have no problem with not being able to explain everything in the universe all at once. My Biologist husband will cling to the many possibilities in our world until one is proven correct or incorrect by scientific method. Until then, pretty much everything is a theory and is open for discussion. |
Mark, I think DKL has adequately addressed your questions. The biggest underlying problem with ID is that you can neither prove nor disprove God exists which is the fundamental assumption for the idea. However, with evolution, it neither states that God is involved or it not involved, but relies on scientific data to bolster the idea that species (as we define the construct) do change over time – I think that is irrefutable at this point. |
The problem with this is all or nothing thinking. The validity of one excludes the validity of the other. Pish posh. God is the ultimate scientist. |
Devyn S., ID does not assume that the investigation it undertakes can prove that God exists. The only thing it attempts to establish is that teleology exists. There are numerous atheists who maintain the necessity (and irreducibility) of teleology. Clark, One step at a time. Completely taking the wind out of ID by computational means requires two things (1) A plausible Monte Carlo simulation of abiogenesis (2) A comparable simulation of the development of the sort of features ID claims are un-evolvable by non-teleological means. Bacterial flagella or something comparable for example. Lots of preliminary work will have to be done before an accurate simulation will be possible, so I suggest *any* simulation of the evolution of manifestly structured or quasi-biological complexity from random inputs and neutral state transition rules would be a rather convincing place to start. As far as “theory” goes, there are plenty of other scientific theories with some empirical evidence that do not rise to the level of “well established scientific theory”, as if those first two words were redundant. That purported convention is entirely opportunistic. |
DKL, As I said ID is an attempt to reliably establish teleology from empirical evidence. The originators admit that as a research program it does not attempt (and is incapable of empirically establishing) what type of teleology is involved. |
So Mark, what is the point of ID then in your view? How is it really any different from evolution except saying that there was a God involved in the process? I think your view of ID is very different from others I have had “discussions” with. |
To be fair to Mark, one need not inject God to justify ID. Pantheism of various sorts works just fine. (OK, you could argue that’s God, but the point being that if teleology is a facet of matter around us then the ID case would still function independent of the main views on God) Of course typically this is just thrown out as a sop to doubters since most ID proponents want to inject the Christian God into science. |
Mark D, you still haven’t explained why you cannot be more Christlike by not injecting Him into science. Christ doesn’t inject Himself, why do you? |
I still wonder who designed the designer(s). I guess it’s turtles all the way down. |
arj, The bottom-most turtle is just that, a turtle. Anticlimactic, I know. |
One of my graduate advisers was fond of pointing out, behind closed doors, was that God lives in the fudge factor that many equations have. Not that God is irrelevant — to the contrary. It’s just that no one has any way to account for Him scientifically, so we account for His influence in other ways. |