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You are so kidding me. If they didn’t send the kids out when they were 19 they might recognize they have other things to do and not go. 19 is just old enough not to be complete basket cases most of the time and just young enough that the idiots don’t think they have any other options. |
I think bloggernacleburner is right. As the post suggests, a large part of the mission for the missionaries’ own benefit, even if it is unsaid most of the time. If anything, we need to encourage our youth to learn responsibility and hard work sooner rather than later. Delaying the important lessons found in the mission for a few years won’t serve any purpose than giving them a few more years to goof off. I am so grateful that most of college years were AFTER my mission than before. My grades appreciated it too. |
There’s also something to be said for the untrained youth channeling the spirit when testifying to an investigator… |
Also, I don’t get the whole bit about dress and 19-year-olds. I grew up in Northeast Ohio. NEOhioans break out the shorts when it hits 30. I don’t care how old you are. I now live in a state and have a work situation where I can basically wear socks for only 5-6 hours a week. And I can get away with only wearing long pants for 6-7 hours a week. Am I less grown up? Times change. |
Yeah, I vote for keeping the missionary age at 19. We just need to get tough with our kids. They need to accept responsibilty sooner rather than later. If you set the standard at 19 most will attain it. If we treat them as men, they will be men. My oldest signed the commitment papers for the Army-ROTC at 18. He started his missionary service at 19. He gets mad when people call his fellow army men/women kids. He says that once they sign the papers at 17+ the kid is now a man or woman. If the army can expect it so can we. |
Our church’s youth programs really do try to turn them into adults. Go look at the things we ask them to do as part of their personal progress/duty to god/scouting programs. These things aren’t trivial. And the average American teen isn’t doing them… |
(Sorry, this is a topic I have intense opinions about.) They were often married, supported themselves and families, most were finished with their education. Is that an indictment of our children or the state of society back then? Yes, our children have lots of distractions. Yes, they tend to act “immature”. But their education in 2009 would basically qualify them to run state governments in 1859, even if they can’t change a diaper. |
Simply because young men in society at large are maturing later, doesn’t mean we should follow them down that path. I think there’s something to be said for being counter-culture. And there are some real downsides to raising the age, let’s say to 23: -What are women going to be doing? If men and women go on missions at the same rate as they do today, there’s going to be a bunch of women age 19-25, who are ready to get married but don’t have prospective spouses because either men their age are on missions, or they know they are going when they are 23 and thus don’t want to get involved in a serious relationship before they leave. Of course, maybe if they raised the age, more women would go… -More breaking of the law of chastity. I’m not convinced that only the men who would have broken the rules on the mission anyway would be the ones who would commit shenanigans if the age was raised. Dating from 16 to 23 gives young men a solid 7 years of just kissing and holding hands, with no 2 year timeout. Plus there would be a couple of years after the mission for dating. So guys wouldn’t be getting hitched until age 27. I foresee many more chastity violations here…. -19 year old men are zealous. Scientists have shown that the brain finishes maturing at around 21 or 22. Before that point, the adolescent brain uses the amygdala, the emotional center of the brain, more than the prefrontal cortex which handles things much more rationally. When the brain matures, this switches, with most everything being filtered through the prefrontal cortex. While this would seemingly support the idea of raising the age for missionarie, because it would make them more mature, they would be far less zealous, passionate, and emotional about the work. My adolescent brain was able to see things in black and white and my spiritual experiences were really powerful. Now with a mature brain, try as I might, the Spirit and my passion for the gospel never feels as vivid. too much prefrontal cortex filtering going on. So all in al |
Ah, cut off the last part: “So all in all, a bad idea.” |
If my primary kids I teach weren’t so dang obsessed with Pokemon, I’d say send them on missions. They know the enough to teach! If I remember correctly, Joseph F. Smith went on his mission at age 15 to Hawaii. Without a companion. Without an MTC. To correct the blunders of a previous missionary. 19 is far and away almost too old to send them out. |
lower the age to 18 if they’ve graduated from high school. Lower it for women as well as far as I’m concerned. |
I tend to like the older missionaries more as well. My favorite elders are always the ones that came out “late”. But, I have to agree with the other comments. Missionaries tend to get more out of their mission experience than the people they are serving. A lot of the purpose of a mission is personal growth & I say better to have that opportunity earlier than later. |
ESO, I think it’s unanimous. Nobody wants to second your motion. I personally think the world has enough perpetually adolescent young adult men. |
When I was 19, I was determined not to go to college. I had failed out of high school a few years before, and I knew that college is a waste of time. So I started a business with a friend selling computers to the government. Within 18 months, I was signing payroll checks for more than 40 employees. I’ve posted before on my reasons for going to college, but one big one was this: After visiting a friend, it became obvious to me how much easier it is to pursue an education than to actually make something of oneself. So off I went to college. As a footnote, when I went to the MTC, I was older than everyone I encountered there. I was arguably more accomplished in the real world than the mission president, who told me, “People like you shouldn’t go on missions.” Make no mistake, the current missionary system wouldn’t work if missionaries were more mature, and all that talk about raising the bar is just a bunch of nonsense. They can’t raise the bar on missionaries because they won’t raise the bar on the program itself, which relies on the fact that missionaries are children — otherwise it wouldn’t get away with half the stuff that it tries. Anyone here remember that article in Dialogue that talked about the similarities between the clinical definition of brainwashing environments and missions? |
If I remember correctly, Joseph F. Smith went on his mission at age 15 to Hawaii. Without a companion. Without an MTC. To correct the blunders of a previous missionary. I wonder if being the son of Hyrum Smith and the nephew of Joseph Smith had anything to do with his superior maturity… |
My FIL was a mission president, and oh, the stories he told. I still think that those missionaries could have been running state and city governments 100 years ago, with the same experience that they had to go screw up their areas. |
Aloha! Obviously ole Joseph F. didn’t do as thorough a job as he should have… |
Men who revel in toilet humor and can’t cook at 19 are the most likely going to be doing the same thing when they are 25 or even 30. Won’t make any real difference in terms of maturity. My experience with single missionaries who are serve their missions when they are older, is that they tend to have as many if not more issues than the ones who leave between the ages of 19 and 21. On average, they tend to be significantly less able to adapt to the challenges of the missionary lifestyle particularly in less developed areas. |
They can’t raise the bar on missionaries because they won’t raise the bar on the program itself, which relies on the fact that missionaries are children — otherwise it wouldn’t get away with half the stuff that it tries. What “stuff” you are referring to? |
Is there any way we can avoid the expletives in the comments? It’s becoming commonplace, fast and I think it’s contrary to what the ‘Mormon Mentality’ is supposed to be. MAC, I know you didn’t introduce it here. |
Sorry, danithew. I went and cleaned things up a little. It’s just that expletives constitute part of the song I sing to divinity. |
Such passion! I love it (even if no one agrees with me). blogernaccleburner–sisters go even after they recognize they have other stuff to do, and it seems to make them better missionaries. David H Sundwall–if going eary on in college is such a boon, shouldn’t we extend the same curtesy to sisters? queuno–it’s not a matter of how much time you spend in specific dress, it is a matter of dressing appropriately for the occasion. I think it is a life skill that is quickly disappearing. You are correct that we train lifelong members to some extent (although, did you teach at the MTC–it is startling what many lifelong members do not know), and that our generation is significantly more formally educated than many in the past. But formal eductaion isn’t everything, and when it comes to human interaction, it isn’t much. JA Benson–I like the idea of having people serve when they do not have to be forced to behave. Missionary rules are ridiculous, but there for a reason, every one of them, I am sure. Katie M–it is true that missionaries stand out to many non-members because they are so different from others their age, but take a look at those crazy youtube clips Cynthia puts up at BCC, and I hope you will agree that they are not different enough. I shift like this would result in later marriages, I am sure, and that is not a bad thing IMO. Also you asked: what would the girls be doing? Serving missions, going to school, working…isn’t this what girls are already doing? I don’t see the problem. You are probably right that it could result in more LoC violations, which is a problem. Interesting stuff about zealousness–isn’t that an argument to bumping the age down for sisters? Or sometimes zealousness is actually a hinderance to missionary work (not very tactful) and could be a reason why sisters are viewed as better missionaries. Tom Rod–interesting. I am sure some people would be swayed by the “mouths of babes” thing, but when JWs bring their kids with them knocking on doors, I have to admit I have more of a “child abuse” reaction. ARJ–I think the same age requirement would be fine too. bh & e–fair enough DKL–perhaps like you, sisters have long felt that the missionary program was very much a babysitter for foolish elders; many sisters have a VERY hard time with the rules and constant direction. It prevents some sisters from serving, causes some to go home (especially “older” sisters who have more than college under their belt), and makes others miserable. The most successful sisters seem to take it with distanced amusement and ignore it. MAC–true enough–people certainly become less pliant as they age and may have a harder time adapting to missionary rules and companions. |
Eso- I do not like *forced* either. I think that those who have to be forced should not be out on missions. Those that do need to be forced need to be sent home ( I am not talking to you DKL****). It has to start early. Most people will attain whatever level they will be by the expectations others have of them. For instance Kid A has spent most of his childhood and teen years playing games, little or no exercise, sleeping and goofing in seminary, no scouts, getting mediocre grades, no job, hanging out, etc… Later Kid A goes on a mission and is grumpy about having to study, work, ride a bike, walk in hot/cold weather etc… Kid B has been raised with higher expectations of good grades, job, exercise, scouts, working out of doors, limits on goofing off and games, participating in seminary etc…. Now kid B gets pared up with Kid A. Major conflict. THe work suffers. Perhaps Kid A should be given a few more years to grow up. Perhaps if Kid A’s parents had started the growing up process earlier Kid A would be mature enough to handle a mission. We had a good discussion kinda about this subject at M* |
I am a strong believer in expectations, too, JA Benson. But our missionaries do not all come from homes with exceptional parenting. |
It is interesting to see how widespread the preference for 19-year-old missionaries is. I don’t know how to reconcile this with so much preference last week for sister missionaries. Three years back, I put up some of my thoughts on the topic at Millennial Star. (“Nineteen or Older?”) Quoting myself: Why do all our young men make themselves available sooner rather than later? Would pondering the more full range of possibilities benefit them and their service? Our current Church president, Gordon Hinckley, was called as a missionary as a 22 year-old graduate of the University of Utah. On release from his mission, President Grant and his counselors interviewed him for an hour and a quarter on issues facing the European Mission. A week later David O. McKay asked him to be secretary for the Church’s newly created Radio, Publicity, and Mission Literature Committee. I suggest that the order in which Hinckley did things prepared him to make a more useful contribution to the Church. And:
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Eso–I wish you could see what I get to see on many Wednesdays: new missionaries–most of them nineteen years old, but some older. They are so eager and so good. Of course, they’re still teenagers and they do some silly things. But their youth is part of the beauty in their offering. I wouldn’t change a thing. |
Raising the age of missionaries is a solution akin to “kids are going to drink alcohol so i will make sure they drink under my supervision.” This approach avoids the real problem. If young men are not mature enough at 19 to serve as effectively as they did “back in the day,” then we are failing as parents, leaders, and/or prospective missionaries. Perhaps Satan has stepped up his game and we need to raise ourselves and “stand a little taller.” |
DKL, I feel bad even bringing up a complaint about expletives. I’m sad to say that I’m far from perfect in regard to this issue (in my own day-to-day usage) but if I hear expletives in a church community setting I think it’s almost perverse not to complain about it. We have a clear standard we’ve been taught all our lives on the subject – so I feel obligated to respect it and to try to uphold it. My own standard needs to be higher too. I know that. Sorry for so much verbiage on the subject. I’ll shut up now. |
John Mansfield–thanks for that additional information. I too do not know what to make of the difference, except that people are generally resistant to change from “the way we have always done it” even when it is clearly and demonstrably NOT the way we have always done it. Margaret–I both served a mission and taught in the MTC–I have seen a lot of missionaries! I can almost guarantee you you would like them as well if they were 23. Sam–I am all up for an increase in parenting, although that too will not solve all our problems. It seems raising the bar on parents would scare some families straight, though. On the other hand, how long do we hold a parent responsible for a young adult’s choices and actions? |
I think I am going to stick with 19. I want teenagers to grow up. I completely reject the man-child phenom. living at home, playing xbox, surfing for P*&^, dropping in and out of school is a disaster for our society. 30 is the new 20 whatever!!!! When I was 30 I had 4 kids and owned a house. Guess what so did my 2 RM brothers who are old enough to be 30. My other RM brother is 24 has a child, college education and a job as well. |
A relative who presides a stake had a number of missionaries return home after a few months because the task was work and not so fun. He started requiring those he sent out to have worked a hard job for some months before he would recommend them. Also, men who need to wear play clothes continually are disturbing. My 11-year-old complains regularly that everyone else gets to wear shorts to school, but my sons wear pants. |
DKL #21: It’s just that expletives constitute part of the song I sing to divinity. ROTFLMAO! |
First, I think that ESO’s fundamental premise is flawed because it really just addresses a specific culture (contemporary USA and possibly Canada; I can’t really speak for up there). Get outside of the US, and I suspect you’ll find that most 19-year-old males are not “adolescents” living at home (unless unemployed), wearing shorts, and playing video games. The idea of moving the missionary age upwards specifically to address what I think is a relatively recent flaw in US culture would be exactly the wrong thing to do. Second, I for one categorically reject the various aspersions on the missionary program indeed (“brainwashing”, indeed). Since serving my own full-time mission (1972-74), I’ve been a ward mission leader five times (including at present). And while elders sometimes cause me to wince, the vast majority have been (in my experience) sincere, dedicated, and hard working. Like any other calling, they grow into it, some successfully, some less so. [And if you think I've been brainwashed, here are some summaries about my own background: LDS, personal, professional. Humph. :-)] Third, I would highly recommend reading Richard Rife’s mission president journal (he was President of the Korea Daejeon Mission from 2001 to 2004). While he has sought to preserve confidentiality, he’s also quite honest about some of the struggles among the missionaries and a few of his own struggles. But what comes through is the love, dedication, serious intent, and bubbling humor of the vast majority of these young men and women. Fourth, the big change I do regret slightly in missionary work is the relatively compactness of most mission boundaries nowadays. At age 21, my companion Jim Thomas and I found ourselves zone leaders with an entire country (Nicaragua) as our zone (about two dozen additional missionaries scattered throughout the country). There were no stakes or wards in Nicaragua; just one district, comprising half a dozen branches (maybe a few hundred active members in the entire country, if that many). The mission president lived in an entirely different country (Costa Rica), we had no reliable phone communications with the mission office, and we saw the President once ever six weeks. We would occasionally look at one another and burst out laughing, but we also worked hard to live up to our calling. In my opinion, the solution is not to delay responsibility but to teach and expect it. ..bruce.. |
bbell–it sounds like missions are being used to force kids to grow up–are we willing to admit that parents are at a loss to raise humans into adults without missions? I hope not. John Mansfield–I think having kids work before serving a mission is a GREAT advantage to them in the field. bfwebster–just because the scope of the problem may be limited doesn’t mean the premise is flawed. I suspect that 19 was an arbitrary age set based on the ebb and flow of North American lives, without consideration for Italian young men or Ghanaians. In fact, 19 doesn’t work very well in very many cultures (nearly all Japanese missionaries serve after their university, so they are already in their mid 20s; the same for many African youth, and Europeans as well). I am eager to read that MPs experience soon. Again I ask: if the advantages of serving at age 19 are so great, why not extend that opportunity to sisters? If sisters (arguably) make better missionaries because they are more mature, why not ask the same of the men? |
@ESO- “Also you asked: what would the girls be doing? Serving missions, going to school, working…isn’t this what girls are already doing? I don’t see the problem.” As I said, the problem is that if you raised the age to 23, there would be no marriageable men from age 18 to 25. Right now there’s no marrying men from 18-21. A four year difference is pretty significant in this stage of life. Of course these women would be working and going to school as you said, but a lot of them would feel ready to get married and settle down but would be forced to wait until age 26 or 27. If they then waited two years after getting married to have kids, they wouldn’t have their first until age 29. Some women wouldn’t mind this, but some, especially those who want large families, definitely would. |
I don’t think you can find a single instruction from General Authorities that all young men should begin their missionary service when they hit nineteen. I looked, and every mention of age that I found addressed the whole range of ages, nineteen to twenty-five. That every young man begin missionary service at age nineteen is a custom, or maybe just a convenient pattern; it is not counsel or instruction by the Church. |
Katie M–as I already mentioned, I think there is wisdom in marrying a bit older, especially in our age of extended adolescence. I also think there are some good reasons to have a more manageable number of kids than a dozen. I am one of 10 kids, and parenting today is very different from parenting when my mom was doing it. [if we were to take a poll, I would bet that MANY problem missionaries are from the tail end of a family when the parents were too tired to discipline as they once had] That is for a different thread. If people feel very passionately about having kids into the double digits, there are foster kids galore who could use a nice Mormon home. That said, I think the idea that people should be breeding by 21 is, um, insufficiently convincing. |
ESO, “breeding” is a fairly insulting way of putting it. Which may be the correct word for your purpose. |
I’m sure that this is an issue that has been given a great deal of thought by the General Authorities. I suspect they are much more heavily invested in the missionary program than you or I. Yes, I know, every member a missionary, but still, this is part of their day job. The history of missionary work in the Church is one of evolution and I think that will continue as the Church continues to strive to meet the needs of the day. As missionaries we frequently referred to Alma 37:6-7 wherein Alma counsels Helaman that the Lord uses the small and simple bring about his purposes. Yes, we were for the most part 19 and 20 year-old young men, and for the most part small and simple. Yet, great things were, and are, being accomplished, step by step. |
So I think there’s an 800 pound gorilla in the room that was touched on by Katie M. What about sex? I’m certain that there is a percentage of young men in the church where the prospect of having no possibility of marriage (and, therefore, sex) until they’re 25 is a little daunting. I know there are many who wait longer, that’s not my point. It’s the possibility of marriage (and sex) that might keep some motivated to stay on the straight and narrow until they’re 21 or 22. |
ESO, I am essentially rejecting a prolonged adolescence. Is it really a good idea to accept the man/child phenom and build or missionary program around it? When looking back in my family history I find that all my male ancestors were by age 22-23 either married or fighting in a war. Same with my wife’s side of the family. I much prefer males becoming responsible at an earlier age then society currently does. |
bbell, I agree that the stereotypical 20-something living in his parents’ basement and playing video games all day. I just question how widespread the phenomenon is, outside of movies and scare articles. I’m sure it exists, but I’m not sure that it’s an epidemic. |
s/b: playing video games all day IS A BAD THING. |
bbell, I agree with your rejection of prolonged adolescence, but I’m not sure sending every male missionary out at nineteen is a solution. In the time of your ancestors, missionaries of many ages were sent out, some teenagers like Spencer Kimball and Matthew Cowley, some college graduates like David O. McKay and Gordon Hinckley. If a third of our male missionaries went out at nineteen, a third at twenty, and the rest at twenty-one or twenty-two, then I think a more mature environment all around would result. |
John Mansfield–Katie and I just see this differently and I call it like I see it; her baseline concern seemed to be reproduction (marriage age, getting started on babies, having a large family, etc); I am sure many many LDS share that exact line of thought. YAJ–are you telling me I am not the expert on this I think I am? I welcome an evolution of policy. Jota–I remain unswayed. I agree this may be a concern for a large number of people. I think it is a human concern, and we are talking about a divine work. If that is the concern, I say stay home, marry Katie or her like, and don’t serve a mission. bbell–I am with you in disliking the 25-year-old teenager. I just don’t quite agree that the answer to that societal ill is to ship them off on a mission. I have seen some VERY desperate parents who just hold their breath until that magical Wednesday afternoon their kid gets the Captain Crunch jokes at MTC orientation. I think they are delegating their parenting to the missionary program, which forces the program to be (as DKL pointed out) quite childish. |
John, I am OK with 19-21. I was 19.5 when I entered the MTC due to weird delays. papers in January, call in May and MTC in October. go figure. I think that raise the bar though serves a barrier to older missionaries unless they were converts. Sam B. My own immediate family followed the same path as my ancestral line. I am the oldest born in 1974. Myself and my three brothers all went on missions and were married by 22-23. This is in the last decade and a half. We are not that unusual in the church. I have dozens of friends that followed a similar path. ESO I am not sure why you think that I want to use the missionary program to make kids grow up. Ideally they would be mature enough to serve a mission prior to their mission by going to school for a year and holding a few jobs. |
I’m for waiting longer to get married as well, but I think saying 24 or 25 is too young is stretching it. I think that’s actually a pretty ideal age. Also I am hardly advocating having kids in the double digits. But as most women would like to be done with childbearing around 35, 36, as the rate for birth defects and infertility goes up quite a bit around that age and older, and if someone wanted to have four kids, which is double what I desire, yet hardly an outlandish number, and they started at age 29, they would have to have one about every single year to get done by 35ish. And if they wanted to be more sane about it and space the kids out every 2 years, then they’d be close to pushing 40 by the time they were done having kids. Again, not the end of the world, but certainly not desirable for a lot of people. |
By the way, Dr. B’s missionary blog points out the calling of a new 29-year-old mission president. (Church News) |
“I think that raise the bar though serves a barrier to older missionaries unless they were converts.”—bbell Could you sketch out the details? |
bbell, There is nothing wrong with being married and having kids at 22. But there’s also nothing wrong with getting married at 30 and having kids sometime after 30. The latter doesn’t indicate a prolonged adolescence any more than the former indicates a rash decision. |
John, I pretty much think its the LOC that serves as a barrier for older missionaries. I had three comps that were 25 plus all three were converts and all three had LOC issues pre-baptism. One of my comps was 28! Raise the bar makes it much harder for a 22 year old raised in the church with previous LOC issues to get thru the Bishop and SP interview process. The convert gets baptized and all previous sins get washed away. Baptized at say 24 and on mission at 26. |
OK, I see what you meant, and that is for the most part the situation: a nineteen-year-old LDS man is either going on a mission very soon, or he is on an unfortunate path that doesn’t lead to a mission. It doesn’t have to be that way, though. We could have 21-year-old Gordon Hinckleys still at home using their time wisely. I don’t see anything in the counsel of the Church opposing such a path. |
John, The 21 year old Hinckley getting called in the 1930′s is far different then it is now. Missions were for the elites back then. Hinckley’s family was prominent in the SLC centric LDS church of old. It was not until the 70′s that missions became a rite of passage for the common run of the mill member like they are now. Again I turn to my family history. I was the first missionary in my family and I am 8th generation LDS. We were not elites by any stretch. My wife’s family is much more elite that mine and had lots of missionaries in every generation. Including some mentioned in the D&C. It was these type of GA families that contributed much of the missionary force prior to the 1970′s |
Re #50; “But there’s also nothing wrong with getting married at 30 and having kids sometime after 30.” |
If I remember correctly, Joseph F. Smith went on his mission at age 15 to Hawaii. Without a companion. Without an MTC. To correct the blunders of a previous missionary. You remember correctly in that JFS went on a mission to Hawaii when he was 15. He did have companions while in Hawaii. Of course there was no MTC in the 1850s. And he did not go “to correct the blunders of a previous missionary.” He was sent on a mission at such a young age, in part, because he had been expelled from school for beating up the schoolmaster. |
ESO, the problem I have with this is that your comments assume that emotional/mental/spiritual maturity comes automatically with age; I don’t believe it does. Extended adolescence will not be solved by simply waiting for men and women age out of the habit, that is simply ignoring the issue. I don’t see how allowing for that delay helps the individuals, the missionary program or society as a whole. I would suggest that the caliber of individuals entering the mission homes, when compared to the sending populations is pretty much nothing short of miraculous. I have no doubt that there are problem missionaries and even problem missions. I doubt there many mission presidents who don’t spend some nights pacing and have a bottle of stomach pills in their glovebox, but when the program is followed it is proven effective. When you consider the size, scope and impact of the missionary effort, to fixate on a few bad apples or misapplied efforts is petty. |
MAC–you are right in many ways. Time alone does not mature people But I am not focusing on a few bad apples–I am focusing on the good. What makes those good apples good? Can we not replicate that for more missionaries? |
I’m currently a freshman at BYU, and there were 4 mission calls in Stover Hall alone today. My best friend was called last week to Cambodia, and it was the first time I had ever heard his voice crack. I’d say these young men are making sacrifices to go on these missions, but they’re so eager to go that it hardly seems to be one. Their hearts and minds are in the right place, and I’m honored to be able to share in this period of their lives. Never underestimate what young people can do. If they will align their will with the Lord’s, that’s all it takes for them to be everything the Lord expects of them and so much more. As long as that doesn’t change, the age requirement doesn’t need to change either. |
bbell: there seems to be some confusion about “raise the bar” having created new hard-and-fast rules about what can permanently bar a young man from a full-time proselyting mission. Some have said that having unmarried sexual intercourse after one’s 18th birthday (and post-baptism) means permanent ineligibility for a full-time proselyting mission as a single adult. I have yet to see any confirmation from official sources that that is true. What I heard in Elder Ballard’s 2002 Raise-the-Bar talk was that the repentance process for serious sins must be _completed_ _before_ starting the application process for a mission, not merely _begun_ when applying for a mission. Remember that the age for entering the MTC for male full-time single missionaries can be anywhere from 19 to 25. According to a local bishop, unmarried sexual intercourse _prior_ to 18 (and after baptism) does not permanently bar someone from full-time proselyting service, but he left unsaid what the rule was if the transgression is after age 18, or after having received the Melchizedek priesthood. Bishops and Stake presidents are entitled to know by revelation whether or not someone’s sin has been forgiven by the Lord and “cancelled.” And they are entitled to know the Lord’s will in regard to a prospective missionary (or anyone really) whose sins have been so forgiven, cancelled, and no longer remembered by the Lord. I think the idea that sex-after-18-means-permanent-ineligibility is an incorrect assumption of what Raise the Bar meant. |
Bookslinger, I know that there is no hard and fast rule on LOC violations. But since raise the bar its gotten harder for potential missionaries with long term LOC issues to get thru the process. |
What I appreciate about “raising the bar” is getting some of these teenage boys to take standards seriously. It is hard to be a Mormon teen with other Mormon teens think they don’t need to bother with obeying any of the commandments. When they perpetually see young men who partied in high school just shape up and repent in a couple months and then go on a mission, they tend to think it is an appropriate example to follow. |
The 21 year old Hinckley getting called in the 1930’s is far different then it is now. Missions were for the elites back then. Hinckley’s family was prominent in the SLC centric LDS church of old. It was not until the 70’s that missions became a rite of passage for the common run of the mill member like they are now. Again I turn to my family history. I was the first missionary in my family and I am 8th generation LDS. We were not elites by any stretch. My father’s family attended a ward in SLC that met in a chapel called the “McKay Chapel”, so nicknamed because David O. McKay dedicated it. It is said that when my uncle, just older than my father, left on his mission, there were more people in attendance at his farewell than when the building was dedicated. This was because people were so shocked that someone of my father’s family’s ilk could possibly be allowed to serve a mission, and people had to come and see for themselves. When my father passes away, maybe I’ll see if I can’t post parts of his life story somewhere. He paints an interesting picture of SLC in the 40s and 50s and what it was like for families on the fringe, like his. Missions and college educations were rare. I still tear up when I read the portion of my father’s account of how he went on a mission, and how it completely changed his life. And how he wouldn’t be who he was if it weren’t for the mission. He left when he was older, but that was out of necessity. He would probably have preferred to leave when he was younger. |
I’ve pondered bbell‘s idea since yesterday about the missionaries of earlier generations being the elite of the church. I expect that the missions of previous eras had a much larger proportion of stake presidents’ sons and apostles’ nephews, but I have doubts that most missionaries were. Seeking a hint, I looked at President Grant’s report to the church at the April 1925 conference. There were 1,871 missionaries that year and 14,047 children baptized. Assuming three year missions, that would mean roughly that 9% of baptized boys ended up going on missions. There were 94 stakes and 907 wards that year, so an average of two missionaries out at a time per ward, twenty per stake. For an elite class to provide all those missionaries, it would have to be a broad elite. |
Anecdotally speaking, although my family has been in the Church since Palmyra, we are not an elite family. No famous names, no big callings, no shout-outs in the D%C. But family members have served missions throughout. Not everyone, for sure, but plenty. |
John Mansfield: shouldn’t we compare the number of missionaries called in 1925 (or the number of missionares serving in 1925 divided by 3) with child baptisms in 1913? (Assuming 20 year old missionaries and baptisms at age 8.) With the high birthrate back then, and 13 years is enough of a time span even though not a full generation, I’d bet that there were less children baptized in 1913 than in 1925. Straight-line growth would be enough to skew your “snapshot in time” analysis, but the exponential nature of growth due to birthrate would skew it even more. How does the percent of male-children-of-record who go on to serve missions today compare to 100 years ago? My gut feel is that 1/3rd go inactive before mission age, and 1/2 of the remaining active ones go on missions, for a net of about 1/3 of baptized boys go on missions. |
I was a missionary just out of college. It was certainly not the best for me, nor would I suggest it for my sons. My career opportunities were reduced and for many, the need to repay student loans would make it impossible. |
While I was in the old Salt Lake mission home in 1966, when all new missionaries stayed a week there and received several hours of lectures from General Authorities each day, were set apart and visited the Temple, the mission mother mentioned that when the minimum age for missionaries had been 21, she and her husband had encountered many problems which diminished or disappeared when the age was lowered to 19. I don’t recall that the 19 year old new missionaries in the mid-1960′s when I served were all that more mature than 19 year old young men of today. Re comment no. 7 – The idea that education has improved from the 19th century might be remedied by teaching freshman English for a semester, or grading essays for a state bar exam these days. Not a pretty picture, in general, although many young people may tend to view the past as a dark age in comparison with the enlightened present. |