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I have no problem with people voicing concerns or criticisms in the right way and about legitimate issues. A true servant of the Lord should welcome correction and enlightenment. Thinking that you know better than the leadership of the Church is what the lesson was meant to focus on, and that is a good sign you’ve parted from the Lord. |
Great post, David. You’re so going to hell. |
Nice – thanks DKL. I agree completely. As one who is fairly open about things I don’t like, I am often thanked by others who feel similarly but are afraid or unable to openly voice dissent. I often think that there is no place for dissent because of the mechanisms you spoke about which means you have two options if you don’t agree. The ornery ones like you and I stay, while the less ornery just fade away which is a tragedy. It all gets to this false view that the leaders are infallible and we must not criticize anything they do or say. |
I think it’s fine to disagree with Church leaders and I do disagree with them a substantial amount of the time, but on more than one occasion I have disagreed with Church leaders on things that seemed clear-cut and obvious, and I found out later that I did not have all the relevant facts and my dissent was counterproductive.
How would you reconcile that statement with Christ’s godhood? Is it possible that the mortal part of him was able to believe false teachings, and therefore, it’s not a sin to do so? |
I agree with Sam. When this lesson was presented in my EQ, there was a firm distinction made between criticism of a policy or practice of the Church (which is ok) and criticizing the bretheren personaly by calling into question their righteousness or authority (which is not). As long as you are doing the former and not the latter, I think you are on solid ground and we should welcome the criticism. The problem comes when people don’t know the difference between these two things. |
So, when others tell you that you’re “steadying the ark,” or “when the Brethren have spoken, the debate is over,” what do you tell them? Give me some good quotes that I can commit to memory. (I’m hoping you say that you laugh in their faces and then turn and walk away, but I’m guessing not.) |
I was at a stake training meeting years ago (not in my current stake) and a member of the stake presidency asked the group the following question: “What should you do if a priesthood leader says something really stupid?” My first thought was “a leader’s first responsibility is NOT to say stupid things.” But I didn’t say that. Instead I was a little more diplomatic. But I did say that if the issue was important enough, a person should privately and tactfully and respectfully discuss with the leader what had been said and why it was wrong/incorrect/etc. I was a bit sensitive to the question, coming from him, because this same leader had previously (in a meeting with our elders quorum presidency) corrected me on a scriptural point I was making – but his correction had been flat-out wrong. It might not have mattered, except he was quite dismissive and condescending with his correction and I didn’t appreciate it – though I didn’t respond immediately. A few days later (via email) I brought up the point with him and demonstrated that the ‘correction’ he offered was mistaken. He had nowhere to go and conceded the point in that discussion. In responding to him, I was careful not to be derisive or disrespectful – but I was thorough in explaining why the correction had been wrong. Based on that previous context, I couldn’t help but feel that by raising his question in a stake training meeting, he was trying to rebuke me a little. I think it irked him that I had corrected him at all, even privately. We are a hierarchical church and it is natural that the hierarchy will teach us to respect the leadership. I do believe it’s foolish (and wrong) to publicly and actively undermine church leaders. But if a leader teaches false doctrine or is flat-out wrong about something, there should at least be an appropriate (and perhaps private) way to channel a thoughtful response. |
Oh, and I concur with Ann’s comment at #2. |
DKL–I plan on hanging out with you in the Celestial Kingdom, where we can tease (but not mock) ministering angels. There are ways of expressing opinions which honor the roles/mantles of those who are in leadership positions. There are diplomatic phrases, open-ended questions, etc. I like starting out by expressing a legitimate concern and then asking, “I’m having a difficult time with this particular thing you (or somebody else) said, given my experience. Can you help me understand it or frame it better?” Problems begin when anger enters the conversation and accusation/self-righteousness(on either side) undergird the dialogue. We’re not in a competition to see who’s right. We’re really trying to become one in Christ. |
Margaret, there are also ways that leaders can respond to criticism that honors the roles of those offering it. But too often, they focus on the means of presentation rather than the content of it, which is an age-old way to manipulate people and avoid the impact of what they have to say. When someone says, “I don’t have a problem with what you’re saying, I just have a problem with the way that you’re saying it,” she is simply changing the subject and pushing the scrutiny back onto the person who provides the feedback. On the one hand, church leaders get the prestige that comes with important, high-visibility callings, to the extant that high-level general authorities are often treated like celebrities. On the other hand, they expect to be spared from all but the most flattering and tactful scrutiny. They can’t have it both ways, even though this is what the standard Mormon view of criticism promotes. This standard outlook ensures that the maxim “where much is given, much is expected” is only ever applied to those who are “given” very little. I’m not a church leader, and I’m never going to be — I’m on the fast track to the Terrestrial Kingdom. Even so, I spend a lot of time performing my callings and I pay a lot of tithing. It’s just too much to ask for me to deal with representatives of Christ who are pre-occupied with being addressed in the most respectful terms. That’s what I call prideful. So, I think that you’re certainly right that church leaders are very concerned about the mode of presentation when it comes to criticism. This is true of all types of authority. For example, in the corporate world, one must be particularly mindful of political issues when offering feedback/criticism. I just can’t swallow the idea that we need to worry about political concerns when it comes to addressing church leadership. Besides, the lesson said pretty clearly, “Don’t criticize church authorities” not “Be tactful in criticizing church authorities.” Anyway, I’ll miss hanging out with you in the Celestial Kingdom. |
DKL, all the cool people will be in the Terrestrial Kingdom. Plus you can have beer there! Though perhaps the lack of sex may make the beer seem less of a boon. |
Good criticism: “I think Elder Nelson is wrong about X and here’s why.” Bad criticism: “Elder Nelson is a clueless and out of touch old guy and here’s why.” |
I ♥ DKL |
Ann, I think you are onto something – but I think there’s a difference between having a private conversation with someone about “I think Elder Nelson is wrong about X and here’s why” and posting it on a blog -or- writing a book about it, etc. There’s a difference between having an open and honest conversation with a trusted associate and simply throwing your thoughts out to the masses. I think a private conversation on the subject could be respectful and could be helpful in arriving at needed conclusions. The latter option could (accurately) be viewed as hostile to the Church, it’s organization, it’s leadership, it’s membership, etc. DKL, I really don’t know what you are talking about when you speak of flaws in Christ’s moral teachings. He’s one of the few beings in our worldview who seems truly and justifiably (and divinely) unassailable. |
that lesson was pretty messed up, a whitewashing of history and stereotyping of individuals. |
Ann (#11) True, true. Oh, and I’ve never seemed to have a problem with Church leadership, despite my fierce independent streak. DKL, perhaps you secretly like argumentativeness? Just wondering. |
I agree with Margaret’s comment in #9 about the skillful use of “diplomatic phrases,” but I would modify or elaborate on her suggested approach. Perhaps something along these lines: “Given my experience, two eyes, and more than half a brain, I’m having a difficult time accepting the particular line of bullshit you’re pushing. Perhaps you could try to re-frame it in a less asinine way? Or maybe shut up?” |
gst–I’m ALWAYS thinking that, in those exact words. But I phrase it somewhat differently. DKL–I agree with you about the dangerous prestige church leaders get. When my husband was set apart to serve in a stake presidency, Elder Uchtdorf warned of the potential for leaders to become self-impressed because of all the extra attention and deference. I’ve reported this elsewhere, but it bears repeating. Elder Uchtdorf said, “Brethren, don’t inhale.” Now, if we wanted to talk about gender issues, we get into more difficult territory. For example, DKL, you said this: “When someone says, “I don’t have a problem with what you’re saying, I just have a problem with the way that you’re saying it,†she is simply changing the subject and pushing the scrutiny back onto the person who provides the feedback.” Note the feminine pronoun. “SHE” is probably not going to be in much of a leadership position. At least you didn’t use the word “chick.” |
“Though perhaps the lack of sex may make the beer seem less of a boon.” Who says there will be no sex in the Telestial Kingdom? |
Margaret, as a standard practice, I use the term “she” as the generic pronoun that is free of gender implication, because I do not want to use “he or she” and “he” is controversial any more (I learned this from Dennis Potter, with whom I studied philosophy at BYU, and who is one of my intellectual idols). Incidentally, I do believe that the extension of Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood to women is inevitable. Some day, I’d love to see female apostles or a female member of the first presidency, the way that they have in the CoC, but don’t know if it will happen in my lifetime. Shoot, if the church leadership really wanted to put their money where their mouth is about this idea that “women don’t need the priesthood” they’d appoint women to be apostles without it. |
“It’s just too much to ask for me to deal with representatives of Christ who are pre-occupied with being addressed in the most respectful terms. That’s what I call prideful.” Whoa there, boy! I’ve always said that if I have to choose, I’d rather hang around people who are truthful than people who are nice, and I mean that. But a person who can tactfully share the truth is better than either of the first two choices. A note taped to a brick thrown through my window might have 100 percent true content, but the method of delivery is part of the message. It’s not unreasonable when a critiqued authority is put off by a truthful message when the critique comes with a tone and body language that could be reasonably interpreted as, “the reason I know this and you don’t is because I’m likely your intellectual/moral superior.” Not saying that’s true about you — no idea. But your distaste for tact in this post reminds me of a number of people I know who, bless their hearts, say exactly what they think and are often right (which I love about them). And, bless their hearts, they are blind to the fact that they are in fact not wielding a surgically sterilized scalpel of truth when delivering their criticisms. These friends are almost universally impressive with their command of language and facts and several are highly admired bloggers. These friends are also, in certain interpersonal settings, nearly universally stunted in their understanding of protocol and the honest emotional sugar that helps their critical medicine go down without inducing a gag reflex. Again, I don’t know you and I’m basing my comparisons on very little information here. But like others have said on this thread, there are right ways and wrong ways to criticize others, including leaders. A dismissive tone toward applying basic rules of human interaction when dealing with ordained leaders doesn’t help your argument — it raises suspicions that some of your past negative experiences you’ve had weren’t entirely the other party’s fault. Niceness is a weak defense if one is less than truthful. But the reverse is also true: Truth (as one sees it) is a weak defense for a message that was emasculated by the truth-teller’s stunted ability to communicate that truth with common respect and tact. For all I know about you, DKL, you’re the paragon of tact. If so, please don’t dismiss those who wield it well. |
Danithew, while I understand your perspective, I credit Kevin Barney’s “Why I Favor Same Sex Marriage” post on BCC (along with D. Fletcher’s comment about staying) for preventing my resignation about four years ago. That was a public statement, disagreeing with an apostle on hot-button political issue. He didn’t even MENTION the apostle, but the statement flat-out contradicted the direction the church leadership was pointing. |
So, when others tell you that you’re “steadying the ark,†or “when the Brethren have spoken, the debate is over,†what do you tell them? I tell them I am not steadying the ark. I am pointing out that the ark is beginning to slip and that somebody with the authority to do so had better steady it post-haste. |
#21: Indeed, Lorin, DKL is the paragon of tact. |
Given your politics, DKL, it’s hard to imagine your idolizing Dennis Potter. Care to elaborate? This is the sort of post that, had it been put up several years ago, I would have written volumes in response to (all in complete agreement, of course). Nowadays, I’m just so tired of it all. As I believe you once said elsewhere, DKL, our obsessive preoccupation with not criticizing our leaders borders on the cultish. And I’m honestly not sure which side of the border most of us are on. Sigh. AB |
Is anyone arguing against tact? Isn’t the issue the tremendous emphasis that church materials put on not criticizing our leaders, full stop, no tactfulness exception implied? AB |
I don’t quibble with Christ, but everyone else is fair game, I agree. BTW–We have a family friend who is an area authority and he calls the deference given him because of his calling unrighteous dominion. |
MCQ (#5) – This distinction is a bit of a straw man. There’s no support from the lesson or the church that it’s okay to criticize a doctrine, program or political stance adopted by the church as long as you have charity and respect for the motives and authority of those who are making the call. It’s similar to what DKL pointed out re: tact and method (#10) Is apostasy the disagreement, or is it the lack of tact and respect? And if we didn’t have this institutional clamping down on apostasy, would we turn into the church of the complainers with everyone mouthing off about everything they don’t like? |
Aaron Brown: Given your politics, DKL, it’s hard to imagine your idolizing Dennis Potter. Care to elaborate? Dennis and I debated three topics daily for more than 3 years at BYU: belief in God vs. atheism, Marxism vs. non-Marxism, and holism vs. atomism — both of us approaching these discussions from the point of view of logical positivism. Dennis was always on the side of God, Marxism, and holism. I always argued atheism, non-Marxism, and atomism. Dennis has the most energetic and vigorous intellect I’ve ever met, and no matter how widely I read or how hard I studied, I always felt that he was at least a step ahead of me. I hope Dennis doesn’t mind my saying so, but he did tell me once that if I offered him arguments against holism as compelling as my arguments against God, he would become an atomist in a second. At the time, I thought this was fitting, because I found holism to be much more plausible than belief in God. |
Aaron Brown: Is anyone arguing against tact? For all the focus on it, you’d think somebody is. Loren even thinks that someone is arguing that it’s OK to commit crimes as a part of communicating your viewpoint. Seriously, get a load of this gem from Lorin: “A note taped to a brick thrown through my window might have 100 percent true…” Reading Lorin, you’d think I had said something like this: “A message left on the phone every hour for several weeks may warrant a restraining order or get you arrested for stalking, but if it’s 100% true, than the GA is obliged to respond the way that Christ would.” Personally, I think that if someone did that to Christ, he’d punch her in the face. |
Ann, thanks for the kind words. And you’re right: I’m psyched about the beer in the Terrestial Kingdom. Devyn S, I completely agree with you. I’m always surprised by the private responses I get to talking about my mission, how many people thank me. gst, ROTFLMAO |
Amen and amen, DKL. Thanks for this post. |
Lorin, I’m just kidding about you in my response to Aaron Brown above. You raise some good points qualifying the limits of acceptable feedback. |
It’s been my experience that no criticism brought to most church leaders is ever accepted well. Anything but 100% positive reinforcement to them gets you on their short list. As a Webelos leader I made a lot of mistakes and needed the parents and those in the ward to help me I learned a lot through constructive criticism. If I knew the person and they talked to me on a regular basis they could say whatever they wanted, the ones that only talked to me to show me what I was doing wrong were annoying no matter how tactful they thought they were. Nothing wrong with criticism between friends. |
Melodrama, You are 100% dead wrong. Here are direct quotes from the lesson: “Despite these challenges, the large majority of the leaders and members of the Church remained faithful. Brigham Young, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles during this uncertain period, remembered a meeting at which some Church members were discussing how to depose the Prophet Joseph: “I rose up, and in a plain and forcible manner told them that Joseph was a Prophet and I knew it, and that they might rail and slander him as much as they pleased, [but] they could not destroy the appointment of the Prophet of God; they could only destroy their own authority, cut the thread that bound them to the Prophet and to God, and sink themselves to hell. Many were highly enraged at my decided opposition to their measures.” … “If there are any uncharitable feelings, any lack of confidence, then pride, arrogance and envy will soon be manifested; confusion must inevitably prevail, and the authorities of the Church set at naught. … “If the Saints in Kirtland deem me unworthy of their prayers when they assemble together, and neglect to bear me up at the throne of heavenly grace, it is a strong and convincing proof to me that they have not the Spirit of God. If the revelations we have received are true, who is to lead the people? If the keys of the Kingdom have been committed to my hands, who shall open out the mysteries thereof?” Note that in each case, the problem is personal attack, slander and setting aside the authority of Church leaders. There is nothing in the lesson that says no criticism of Church policies or practices is allowed. Are you sure you actually read the lesson? I didn’t say a single word about tact, charity or method of delivery so quit twisting my words. You are conflating the distinction I made and DKL’s distinction between substance and delivery. Those are completely separate concepts. “Is apostasy the disagreement, or is it the lack of tact and respect?” Obviously, it’s neither one. Did you read my comment at all? Perhaps you might want to try a dictionary. The definition of apostasy is more than just disagreement. I posted on this at Nine Moons, some time ago, you can read that post here: http://www.nine-moons.com/2009/02/23/apostasy/ “And if we didn’t have this institutional clamping down on apostasy, would we turn into the church of the complainers with everyone mouthing off about everything they don’t like?” No, we wouldn’t, because there is a big difference between apostasy and just complaining. |
I’m not sure the idea of some unwritten (or written) law against criticizing leaders is a problem. And I think MCQ provides some good points that would support what I’ve gotten out of lessons of this nature. I do think there is a problematic attitude associated with personal attacks on leaders. And I think the general purpose of those lessons is to teach charity toward leaders. Oddly enough, my patriarchal blessing tells me to have charity toward God. Hmmmmm. Generally, I think a useful response to flawed leadership is the positive one rather than the critical, or even a simple “who cares?” I must be in the same boat as Aaron Brown. I think the crusade for capital T truth when it comes to Church leadership, behavior, and history is a tired one destined for the fate of the literal crusades. I much more enjoy contemplating what is on tap in the telestial kingdom. |
I agree with #35. I taught the lesson last week, and i tried to make the distinction between apostasy (open rebellion) and inactivity. Once we began defining it in those terms, I thought we had a good, productive discussion. And, I think we all agreed, by the end of the lesson, that criticizing a leader is not apostasy. But, there are ways (even proscribed ways found in D&C) on how to do this. My conclusion, however, is that criticizing a leader is usually counterproductive. They are imperfect beings, filling a calling that they didn’t seek, trying to balance their personal, professional and spiritual lives with their calling as a leader. It ain’t easy, and I sure wouldn’t want to do it. Could others do it better, sure. But, the Lord doesn’t always call the capable, he calls the willing. |
OK, this happened at my daughter’s seminary class yesterday morning (she’s in her junior year of high school): At one point in a lesson on obedience vs. disobedience, the teacher said: “It’s a good think that you all were obedient in the pre-mortal existence and ended up coming here; otherwise, you might have been born in Africa.” My daughter was somewhat dumbfounded, but not dumbfounded enough to keep her mouth shut at that point. “You’re saying that the disobedient spirits were born in Africa?”, and then she started laughing. Her friend chimed in with a comment of her own, and then started laughing as well. The teacher did not take this well. Her response was something along the lines of “OK, that’s it: get out.” My daughter protested, asking if they shouldn’t first have a closing prayer. “No. Get out. Now.” So the whole class was dismissed. Early, I believe. This morning, the Stake Patriarch spoke to all of the classes, on a topic not related to what had happened yesterday, so it was not a regular lesson day. My daughter said that her teacher was in attendance, however, and sat rather stony-faced through the day’s events. Where should they go from here? I’m curious to see what happens tomorrow, but I’m not sure this particular teacher can, or should, recover from this. I’m trying to be charitable, and hope that it was a lapse caused by circumstances and pressures that we don’t anything about. But, still… |
I’ve never felt discouraged from telling a leader that he’s wrong. In fact, sometimes I’ve had callings where it’s been my job to tell a bishop or stake leader that he was wrong. But it’s a bit different to “push back” than it is to openly excoriate them from the pulpit. |
Calvinists have an article of faith that states that everything that occurs, occurs according to the sovereign will of God. The LDS equivalent is the concept that whenever a higher council comes to a consensus their decision is law. One might have hope influencing the policy of local councils whose members one is personally acquainted with, within the scope of their discretion. Any attempt to promote the most minor of changes that need to be made two or more levels up is met with universal rejection. The Church is managed such that the only legitimate upward channel of earthly communication is line authority. That is such a narrow channel that even reasonable, moderate suggestions usually get lost in the noise. In addition, the “civilians” who administer various general operations of the Church are generally trained to keep the most mundane information a state secret, and to reject all outside suggestions out of hand. For better or worse, the whole general level of the Church operates behind an inpenetrable veil that makes the headquarters of a standing army look like a liberal democracy. If one has a Calvinist confidence in the inspiration of top level decision making (including that of bureaucratic department A and functionary department B) when every possible effort is made so that feedback does not reach them and as little information as possible leaks out, then fine. Personally, I think this problem can only be remedied by a recognition that an adequate consensus of the lay membership is as liable to be inspired and aware of what is going on as a handful of members of a much higher council, and instutitional changes made accordingly. The framework for this principle is laid out in D&C 107. Other sections call it “common consent” in “all things” for a reason. A church is never going to run like a pure democracy – that would make it difficult to distinguish from a secular institution. It would be nice if it were run like a healthy constitutional monarchy instead of more or less like an inspired despotism though. It is a good thing Church leaders are generally inspired, because a secular enterprise run this way would have crumbled long ago. |
#38 is exactly what I was getting at. I would not want to substitute teach early a.m. seminary, much less do it for an entire school year. Like many of our callings in the church, it can be pretty thankless. The teacher is imperfect and made an imperfect statement. Hell, she probably learned it from some misguided, imperfect seminary teacher or institute director herself (or she was reading JFS “Doctrine of Salvation”). And, clearly the teacher is uber sensitive in regards to her teaching ability. I understand that she was dealing with 15 and 16 year olds…so their criticism should be taken in that context…but, did the open laughter help the situation? are you offering the example to show the importance of HOW the critcisim is delivered? It’s anal |
When this lesson came up a few weeks ago, I made the observation that everyone including Joseph Smith, Thomas Monson, the stake president, and the bishop, have faults and shortcomings and make mistakes in their callings. The comment seemed to be well-received by everyone in the room, including the stake president. |
Oops, I meant to say, “…especially the stake president.” |
Re Mark N #38–obviously, I would not be one to let this go. The teacher must be corrected, and needs to provide a full correction to the class. Since blogs are open space with no intellectual property laws implied, I am going to be sharing that particular experience with others. We need to know that this false information is still being taught. We can correct gently, but we must correct. |
#41–As I read Mark N’s account, it appears to me that this is a Utah story, not an early morning seminary story. Utah’s seminary teachers are paid by the Church and part of CES, and students take seminary on “release time” during high school. The teachers even get some training. I find it interesting that the stake patriarch was brought in. He would actually have something to say about lineage. I’m curious as to why he didn’t address that specifically. Regardless, this is an important account and should be taken to CES. |
I assure you, Margaret, this is a California, early-in-the-AM story. |
Oops, as for the visit of the Stake Patriarch, I don’t know that his visit had anything at all to do with the events of the day before. My daughter’s impression was that it was a pre-scheduled event. His topic was Rome, according to my daughter. I presume he was speaking of hit time spent as a missionary years ago, but I wasn’t there. |
Thanks for the correction, Mark N. The story is still a very important one–even if the teacher is fulfilling a church calling rather than collecting a CES salary. I’ve been trying to think of what I’d do in a similar case. I have had my children call a teacher on false doctrine, resulting in our bishop coming in to resolve issues. But at some point, we need to care about the teacher’s dignity as well–even though the thing she taught must be corrected. “Reproving betimes when moved upon by the HG, showing forth afterwards an increase of love…” Probably it’s not the job of the student to go through this formula, but somebody must, and the information still needs to be corrected–publicly. |
I’m certainly the first one to admit that while my daughter’s intention was not to riducule the teacher, she certainly could have handled the situation with a little more grace. She just laughed at what she saw as a ridiculous statement by the teacher, the same way she would have laughed at a ridiculous line uttered by a sit-com character. There are other things with regard to the situation that I’m hesitant to offer up here publicly — I’ve probably said too much already. |
I remember having this lesson in early morning seminary as a youth. Our SP came in to help deliver the lesson, and proceeded to tell J. Golden Kimball stories, including the one about how the brethren had a hard time censuring him for his profanity because he repented “too d*** fast.” A bit jarring hearing that from our SP, but the point was made. |
When we shrink away from tactfully and respectfully but openly voicing legitimate criticism or leaders, we demonstrate a lack of confidence in them that far outstrips the disrespect inherent in any criticism. It is a kind of disrespect and devaluing that we are all guilty of, all of the time. Except DKL, that is. Well posted, brother. |
Silencing the dialogue only creates detachment. There’s something valuable in detachment, but it’s hardly going to lead to more unity. Turning off one’s mouth leads to detachment; turning off one’s brain is when we get into cultish behavior. The one valid point of the lesson, IMO, is when we fail to see the lessons for ourselves in our criticism of others. They are certainly relevant to our growth. Of course, that wasn’t actually mentioned in the lesson. Aren’t we glad Jesus was willing to criticize church leaders in his day? Elsewise, whence Christianity? Ditto JS. We’d all be Methodists if he hadn’t questioned. |
Brad and hawkgrrrl, Excellent points! |
I, too, have been in the position of telling a leader I thought he/she was wrong. In the LDS culture, this doesn’t always go over so well. In fact, it usually goes over like a lead balloon. I did sit with a Bishop who had enacted a policy I fiercely felt was wrong and told him so in his office but I also told him I would do my best to sustain and support him as my Bishop. Considering the fact that the man has grandchildren older than me, he took it quite well. The policy eventually changed (mainly because it was stupid) but I wonder if any other members of my ward took the time to go let the Bishop know they disagreed. Inspired does not equal infallible. |
Several commenters have pointed out how well their teacher handled this lesson from the manual, and I want to point out that our Elders Quorum instructor did a terrific job with this lesson. |
MCQ (#35) My point was not to insult you or your argument, only to point out that the church does not make the same distinction you made. While the lesson manual certainly points to people trying to overthrow the prophet as examples of apostasy, I don’t see anywhere in there where it provides a course for standing against a practice or policy of the church. In fact, one of the questions it asks is “what are some dangers of losing confidence in our church leaders and criticizing them”. There are also many quotes about the church leaders never leading us astray – never. If the church allowed for disagreement done tactfully and respectfully, what would be the point of DKL’s post? BTW, I really liked your ninemoons post, particularly what you said about the misuse of the word and the feelings of some that God has deserted them. I wasn’t trying to attack you, rather to focus the discussion on whether criticism of the church and its leaders, done respectfully, is acceptable to the culture or doctrine of the church. Too often we just dismiss anything negative as disrespectful. I have been a critic before using exactly the method and respect you identify as acceptable and have felt the bitter fruits from those criticized. |
Mark N., it sounds like your daughter’s seminary teacher subscribes to some old ideas about pre-mortal valiance and skin color. If so, she absolutely ought to be laughed at, because that folk doctrine is nothing BUT laughable. |
Mark N., Many years ago, my brother was kicked out of seminary “for life” for pushing back against his seminary teacher in several class periods on, shall we say, the teacher’s questionable doctrines. My brother admits that his “pushing back” was not done in the most “charitable” way, and he now understands why the teacher might have been upset. In any event, apparently the First Presidency must have lifted that sanction a couple of years ago, and my brother truly enjoys being an early morning seminary teacher now. |
I have not had a chance to ask him whether he himself has resorted to that “ultimate” remedy against nonrespectful students. |
Thanks Melodrama. Perhaps I overreacted. To me the lesson, and the Church for that matter, does leave open the right of members to disagree with Church leaders. To me, the lesson was only about apostasy (which is leaving the Church) and which the lesson says often begins when one attacks or disregards the authority of Church leaders. But there is a big difference between that, and simple disagreement and that point was expressly stated in the lesson we had in my EQ. For myself, I agree with DKL’s post, in that I agree that we have the right to disagree with and criticize Church leaders. I disagree that the lesson is saying we should never do that. I think the lesson was only saying that we should not attack them personally or disregard their authority. I think we can disagree, even vehemently, as long as we acknowledge the authority of the Church leaders to govern in their ordained positions, and do not engage in personal attacks. Some Church members and leaders do not understand or appreciate the difference between these things, but that does not mean the difference doesn’t exist. A careful reader (and a careful teacher) of this lesson would understand that. I think most inspired and mature Chuch leaders understand that distinction as well. |
MCQ, I think that your thesis that it’s OK to disagree does not go far enough. As Mormons and as moral agents, we have an obligation to distance ourselves from the teachings of church leaders when they teach false doctrines that are embarrassing to the church. Thus, I consider it a duty to point out that Ezra Benson’s insistence that church history must be faith promoting is insanely idiotic. I consider it a duty to clarify that Brigham Young’s Adam/God teachings are heresy. I consider it a duty to declare that Spencer Kimball’s idea that adultery is the 2nd worse sin after murder is hair-brained. I have a duty to point out that those church leaders who persecute scholars for publishing their own scholarly conclusions will answer before the bar of God for their actions. Let’s be clear: The lesson, as written, was about being critical of church leaders, and it said (a) that we should not be critical of leaders, and (b) that we should avoid those who are critical. I consider it a duty to point out that these teachings are an abomination, and the entire point of my post is to explain why. |
That doesn’t come close to describing the attitude of the brethren whom I know–a much greater concern, expressed perhaps most directly by Elder Maxwell, was that there was altogether too much adulation of church leaders by the membership of the church.
Having recently received an email signed “Jeff” from one of those representatives, after a first meeting (but, in the interests of full disclosure, my father was a colleague of his at BYU), I think you’re inventing that “preoccupation.” |
MCQ, not only does your thesis not go far enough, it largely ignores the evidence to the contrary. I don’t doubt that your EQ class, like DKL’s and several others, went off beautifully, striking precisely the right balance and tone. But I am also confident that far more extremist positions were consistently and frequently heard in wards across the country. Aaron B. nailed it back in #25. “[O]ur obsessive preoccupation with not criticizing our leaders borders on the cultish. And I’m honestly not sure which side of the border most of us are on.” |
Isn’t it marvelous that all of us live in such enlightened wards, where exactly the right tone is struck, where faithfulness and apostasy are appropriately balanced. God be praised that we don’t have to live among the great masses of unenlightened extremists! |
I would love to be there to see DKL tell Jesus about the “flaws in [Jesus'] moral teachings”. That would be a sight to behold. Fortunately for DKL, Jesus is apparently a pretty forgiving guy, I’m sure the resultant smiting won’t hurt too bad (unless DKL is secretly a fig tree, apparently Jesus hates figs.) |
Doug, what do you think of this little gem from Christ Jesus: “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:36). Do you stand firmly by Christ’s teaching that in order to follow Christ, we must despise our families? Perhaps it’s time to get over your Jesus fetish and start thinking for yourself. But yeah, I’m sure Christ will smile. Perfect beings are always condescending that way. |
Thus, I consider it a duty to point out that Ezra Benson’s insistence that church history must be faith promoting is insanely idiotic. Apparently, ETB is no longer the president of the Church, and there is a new sheriff in town… |
Um… DKL… I’m pretty sure Luke 14 only has 35 verses. I think you may have intended to write Luke 14:26. Regardless… You may want to look at the cross references for “hate” and the JST of this particular verse. Not that I’m trying to get in the middle of any argument. |
Paroled, it was one of the plain and precious saying expunged from the Bible. |
Paroled, thanks for catching the typo. Of course, I am referring to Luke 14:26. The problem with your suggestion is that the JST is not scripture. Luke 14:26 is. Thus, Luke 14:26, vile though it may be, trumps the footnote. End of argument. But here’s what happens with Jesus’ teachings: People starts with the presupposition that Jesus’s moral teachings are perfect. Then they study His teachings and find some of them to be truly vile according to their moral sensibilities. Rather than reform their moral sensibilities to place them in line with the perfect teachings of Jesus, they come up with excuses to explain away the truly vile teachings. Why? Because Jesus was perfect. Not only is this reasoning circular, but it’s a bit silly to consider me to be insulting Jesus just because I refuse to explain away those parts of his teachings that are truly vile. What good are his teachings if we can simply drop whichever ones we want to using any number of interpretive devices? Besides, the Biblical rendering (the one I provide is from the NRSV) is more consistent with Christ’s polemic against the family that runs through every gospel, like Luke 12:51-53:
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DKL – Any opportunity to catch one of your errors is absolutely rare on my part. You’re welceome! :) I’m aware you like the more recent versions of the Bible but all versions must deal with one major flaw- they are translations of writings written decades after the happenings and lectures they record. So regardless of the version being used, one must also examine the motivations and understandings of the imperfect men who recorded the verse to begin with. I wouldn’t necessarily blame Christ for any and all flaws in the scriptures we have now nor every element of what are said to be His teachings. This is where personal revelation and continued revelation come in to play (at least for me). So, to me, the JST is as much scripture as what is found on the printed pages of the KJV of the Bible and in the BOM. |
DKL, I don’t see how Luke 12:51-53 means that Christ was against the family. It seems more that he was saying his coming would cause divisions as a result of the new law he was bringing as a result of fulfilling every jot and tittle of the old. The existing Jews (and Gentiles I suppose) would have a difficult time, many of them, assimilating the resultant changes, thus causing divisions in families. And, as with much of what Jesus said, I think the bit about hating life was more hyperbole and symbolism than literally meant. More along the lines of loving Him more than all that and being willing to give it all up for Him. I hope i’ve made some sense of what’s in my head to “argue” your point, but I have a 4 month old in my arms and her desire for attention is making it impossible for me to re-read what I’ve tried to say! |
DKL, despite your attempt to “be clear” it is a serious oversimplification to characterize this lesson as you did: “The lesson, as written, was about being critical of church leaders, and it said (a) that we should not be critical of leaders, and (b) that we should avoid those who are critical.” Those words: “we should not be critical of leaders, and (b) that we should avoid those who are critical,” in fact, appear nowhere in the lesson. I’ll say it again: The lesson was about apostasy, which the lesson said was caused by “Losing confidence in Church leaders, criticizing them, and neglecting any duty required by God.” Not simply criticizing them by itself, and certainly not by disagreeing with them, which also was never mentioned. I know it’s much more fun to take issue with your version of the lesson but, as usual, the real version is a little less simple. That said, I agree with your first paragraph in #61. Randy, I have no idea how this lesson was taught in wards other than mine. Apparently you do. Feel free then to criticize all those instructors. I’ll stick to the actual text of the lesson. |
If we assume that Corianton was only guilty of forsaking the ministry, and not guilty engaging with the Harlot Izabel, you might have more firm ground to stand on. Assuming Corianton commited adultery, SWK is really only reading scripture.
I have a feeling that any form of “persecution”, whether it be by or against Church leaders, will be answered for at the bar of God. I think it wise to carefully consider the battle to be fought in the cause of Truth. And if you can’t receive a revelatory confirmation either way on the subject, it is probably a foolish cause. |
#72, I agree. I think taking the word “hate” at its literal meaning in this verse is naive, at best. |
See how anxious everybody is to explain away Jesus’s teachings? Taking them literally is “naive.” Or the term “hate” is hyperbole. But nobody wants to acknowledge that, when taken at face value, Jesus said some really vile things that have unleashed untold evil and misery upon mankind. In fact, they don’t even want to argue that their interpretation is more plausible than the face-value interpretation. They just want to assume that his moral teachings are perfect and reason backwards from there. Ironic that followers of Jesus can be so intellectually dishonest. |
nasamombele: Assuming Corianton commited adultery, SWK is really only reading scripture [when he says that adultery is second only to murder] And the scriptures are advancing a hair-brained idea as well. It is demonstrably false. Producing child pornography is worse than adultery, and it needn’t even involve fornication. Being a wife-beater or child-beater is worse than being an adulterer. I’d argue that even engaging in emotional abuse of spouse or children is worse than adultery. This notion that adultery is second only to murder is the result of an unhealthy fixation on sex that causes a profound lack of perspective, and it causes much more misery than adultery itself does. Back in Joseph Smith’s day, if you committed adultery, you could confess and apologize to the Nauvoo High Council and not even lose your calling. |
DKL #77: I almost hate to say this, but I think you are right on this. |
“I’d argue that even engaging in emotional abuse of spouse or children is worse than adultery.” Don’t you think that adultery IS NECESSARILY the emotional abuse of your spouse? |
I’ll make the assumption that Jesus’ teachings are filled with hyperbole–for two reasons: First, His actions speak louder than his words. And second, unless you think people were really walking around with gigantic wooden beams in their eyes then the use of hyperbole is a manifestation of heavenly irony–God’s humor. Jesus had a wonderful sense of humor. |
Latter-day Guy: Don’t you think that adultery IS NECESSARILY the emotional abuse of your spouse? Actually, no. Not necessarily. But even if it were, it wouldn’t be relevant, because there would still be forms of emotional abuse that are worse than adultery. MCQ: I almost hate to say this, but I think you are right on [the issue of adultery not being second only to murder]. Welcome aboard the crazy train! |
Jack, you’re arguing that because Jesus used obvious metaphors in some places, that he therefore used them in every instance where not inserting a metaphor makes his teaching morally flawed. You’re simply reasoning backward from the idea that Jesus must be morally perfect to interpretations that suit your own, personal moral outlook. That’s not intellectually honest. Furthermore, many Jesus’s actions aren’t much different from his rhetoric; e.g., beating people in the temple with a whip and his near-constant vitriolic rage against those who disagree with him (“Oh, ye brood of vipers” and all that). |
I think it’s an interesting exercise to ponder what sins might be more serious than adultery – an exercise that could lead to a better perspective of the overall picture of gradations of evil. But adultery is still a heinous sin. Regardless of what was done in Nauvoo (I don’t know what specific instance/s DKL is referring to), prohibition of adultery is in the ten commandments. I’d be interestested in reading a post on the specific Nauvoo examples DKL is referring to. I don’t doubt what DKL is saying, would just like to know more specifics. Doctrine and Covenants has some pretty specific things to say about adultery. It seems that if a person commits adultery and repents, that person can be forgiven. But the person who “repents not” is to be cast out. I don’t know how many instances of adultery can fit into that space that lies between “repents” and “repents not” … but it’s not an area I’d encourage anyone to test out. (see Doctrine and Covenants 42:24-25). D&C 132:41 doesn’t seem to be very forgiving in regards to a woman who commits adultery. The phrase “she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed” is used. I can’t imagine that only woman adulterers would face the prospect of destruction (in God’s eyes). Either way – being “cast out” or “destroyed” are not desirable options. Best not to commit this sin. Just stay away from it. That’s how I read it. |
In regards to adultery, the cases that I’ve observed, the adulterer risks permanent estrangement from spouse, children and family friends (on a very wide scale). Adultery clearly is one of the ultimate tests of a human being’s capability to forgive. Even a one-time instance of adultery is enough to throw this dynamic into play and it’s not the kind of thing that is predictable, controllable or easy to deal with in any way. I understand that a person could be forgiven for adultery – but that doesn’t necessarily mean that person gets the marriage back, the children back, the friends back. It creates all kinds of upheaval and it seems that upheaval factor is fairly permanent. Even if repentant, the adulterer doesn’t get to just go back to the previous (more ideal) state that existed previous to the committing of that sin. Everything has to be re-ordered, re-organized, re-created. |
danithew, Just to be clear, I don’t think that anybody here is advocating or excusing adultery. The question is whether the standard Mormon casuistic formula, expounded by prophets and scriptures, is deeply flawed. FWIW, any sin that you do not repent of will get you “cast out.” Besides, I’m as willing to say that the D&C is incorrect as I am the Book of Mormon and Spencer Kimball. And I’m no more heretical than those who believe that we don’t need to practice polygamy to be exalted (contra section 136). |
DKL – Are you ignoring my argument that not all sayings attributed to Christ were actually Christ’s teachings verbatim? I don’t think you can unequivocally say that “when taken at face value, Jesus said some really vile things that have unleashed untold evil and misery upon mankind” if you can’t be positive that He was recorded accurately. I’m not trying to be a “naïve” blind follower, but to actually consider the source of the information I’m reading. Ancient scripture cannot be interpreted the same way you might read a court reporter’s notes. I have a feeling that at Christ’s return we’ll have some editing to do when it comes to our understanding of the scriptures; specifically the New Testament accounts of His life and teachings. We already have an example of Christ doing so when He came to the Nephites, He asked for their records and then corrected some of them. We cannot assume that everything we have in the New Testament is a perfect accounting of His actions or words. To do so is more naïve than trying to explain away Christ’s teachings by constantly falling back on the premise that He is perfect. And BTW, adultery is, indeed, emotional abuse of one’s spouse. It can also become emotional abuse of one’s children… But it’s not really the main point I’m making here. MCQ and nasamomdele – Hear, hear! |
Paroled, I’m not ignoring your argument about the authenticity of passages that quote Jesus. My statement in comment #70 applies to it equally. Specifically, you’re always going to discount the authenticity of those teachings of Jesus that you personally find to be objectionable. Thus, you’re still just trying to explain away those teachings of his that you don’t like. Basically, in order for people to retain their belief that Jesus’ teachings are perfect, they have to render them utterly useless. Since one must use their own moral compass to determine which ones are hyperbolic, metaphorical, or inauthentic, she ends up reducing Jesus’ teachings to her own moral outlook. So why read them in the first place? Why not just concentrate on defining one’s own moral outlook? Regarding adultery being abuse: On the one hand, if you take the term “abuse” to entail some form of attack, then adultery is not abuse, because performing the act of coitus with another consenting adult does not constitute a literal attack on anyone else (as opposed a verbal or physical assault). On the other hand, if you take the term “abuse” to mean hurt or injure, then adultery is abuse, but so is anything that one does to hurt her spouses feelings (e.g., forgetting to buy a card on Valentine’s day), and this renders the term “abuse” trivial when applied to adultery. Saying that adultery is abuse attempts to barrow the rhetorical force of the former definition and apply it using the rules of the latter definition. This just is a cheap rhetorical trick. Formally speaking, it is called equivocation. Quite simply, it’s inaccurate to say that adultery is emotional abuse. Nowadays, people tend to exalt victims by defining every sin as encompassing every other sin — as though the emotion suffering that one incurs when she gets her car stolen makes car theft emotional abuse. The fact is that all sins that victimize people take an emotional toll on them as well. Nevertheless, not all sins that victimize people abuse them. |
danithew: …prohibition of adultery is in the ten commandments… From both a legal and a casuistic point of view, the ten commandments is defective. Though it was written by the very Hand of God, it is inferior to (for example) the Bill of Rights, which was written and ratified by mere mortals. The Bill of Rights, for example, contains a statement emphasizing that it is not a complete list of rights (Amendment #9). The Ten Commandments contains no such statement. Furthermore, the Ten Commandments emphasizes commandments that arise out of superstition (e.g., keeping the Sabbath holy and avoiding unnecessary usage of Yahweh’s name) to the exclusion of much worse sins like physical assault or domestic abuse or buying, selling, and owning slaves. And the reason for this is, quite simply, that the Ten Commandments represents the morality of primitive tribes, where domestic abuse was accepted as OK, slavery was common, and physical assault was not a bad thing per se. So much for the idea that the Hand of God delivered anything approaching a useful morality for the ages. |
DKL – I try to look at *all* of Christ’s teachings in the same way. I don’t know that I believe He was perfectly quoted when He said “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” which is a statement attributed to Christ that is often seen as embodying his generosity and perfect nature. I lean toward the belief that a LOT of what is attributed to Christ has to do with the perspective of the authors of the Bible based on some simple teachings of the Savior. I’m more inclined to take the teachings in the BOM at face value but even some of its writings suffer from the same flaw. The memory of men (or women) is not perfect and I’m sure many of the teachings we find in the scriptures–both good and bad–are closer to extrapolations than fact. Of course, I’ll also quibble over the differences between perfect and being without sin. Christ was, indeed, without sin. Does this also mean He never made any mistakes ever in His life? I don’t know. But I’m leaning toward Christ being the only person on earth who lived without sin as opposed to being completely “perfect.” Talk with me some time about adultery equaling emotional abuse… I think you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone who has been on the receiving end of adultery who does not believe they have been emotionally abused by their spouse/partner/parent. I have no interest in sharing any first-hand accounts here but the experience is much different than the theory. |
Paroled, when it comes to denotation, the difference of experience and theory is of little consequence. I have no doubt that the emotional fallout from adultery is very severe. But it is a mistake to confuse fallout from somebody’s behavior with intentionally inflicted pain — thus the difference between manslaughter and murder. |
DKL: “Furthermore, many Jesus’s actions aren’t much different from his rhetoric; e.g., beating people in the temple with a whip and his near-constant vitriolic rage against those who disagree with him (â€Oh, ye brood of vipers†and all that).” First, Jesus went out and made a whip of cords before He cleared the Temple. I’ve often wondered how long that might have taken him. This bespeaks the notion that his actions were well measured and controlled. This wasn’t a man smashing things in a fit of rage. As to the second half of your sentence: I think the burden of proof is upon you–you must show us just how much “vitriolic rage” is indeed in the words he spoke to those who disagreed with him. Show us why it is vitriol rather than straight-forward declarative truth–albeit tempered with hyperbole. |
DKL, even if I were to acquiesce and accept the idea that the ten commandments are defective and inferior, it seems that society still routinely (and often casually) breaks them. So they are still very much needed – and, they are still in effect. It’s not clear to me why you think keeping the sabbath day holy is based on superstition. What is the superstition? What are you talking about? I’ve been in places where people work seven days a week – and I really began to sense and feel the oppression under which these people were living. In all honesty, I think the sabbath day, a day of rest, is as practical a principle (for humankind) as can be found in the gospel. |
Jack: As to the second half of your sentence: I think the burden of proof is upon you–you must show us just how much “vitriolic rage” The fact that Jesus’ heart was brimming with hate for the Jews has been the major justification for anti-Semitism through the ages. This makes Jesus responsible for the misery of more people than just about anyone ever born. The text has spoken for itself for thousands of years, and if you want to claim that it was something other than hatred that Jesus felt in his heart for those who disagreed with him (principally Jews), then the burden of proof is on you to show otherwise. Compare, for example, Jesus to Socrates. Socrates took a rather bland approach to those who disagreed with him — much more characteristic of a perfect moral code, if you ask me. |
I don’t get all of these people here defending Jesus and his teachings, almost as if it were their religion or something! |
DKL, What about the many Jews that Jesus healed? What about the thousands that He fed? Did Socrates do anything like that? The fact of the matter is, you have to look at the whole shebang–the whole canon–to get an idea of Jesus’ character, not just a couple of passages. Jesus’ condemnation of the scribes was appropriate to those who are ripe in iniquity in any age. What were seeing here is not a petty reactionary bit of vitriolic grandstanding. It is an unveiling of the hearts of the wicked for all to see–and to learn from, I dare say. (And that’s what’s most frightening about this whole thing. Can I end up like those guys? Even worse than MacBeth?) DKL, friend, brother, countryman, believe me. People like that REALLY exist and at rare times are deserving of such harsh judgment–even to the point of destruction as was the case with many of the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Now what about the first point I made in my last comment? |
gst: You must not have gotten the memo: Mormons aren’t Christian. |
Jack: What about the many Jews that Jesus healed? What about the thousands that He fed? Did Socrates do anything like that? So your argument is that the fact that Jesus behaved like such a scum bag compared to Socrates is outweighed by the fact that in a few instances he treated those who didn’t disagree with him quite well? Jack: Jesus’ condemnation of the scribes was appropriate to those who are ripe in iniquity in any age. What were seeing here is not a petty reactionary bit of vitriolic grandstanding. Actually, history shows that Jesus wasn’t teaching anything different from what the scribes and the Pharisees were teaching for the century leading up to Christ’s birth. Jack: People like that REALLY exist and at rare times are deserving of such harsh judgment — even to the point of destruction as was the case with many of the inhabitants of Jerusalem. You talk in vague terms about the evils of Jerusalem without naming what they were. In fact, Jerusalem wasn’t that bad. The people that filled Jesus’s heart with hatred were teaching much the same things that He was teaching. And the reason Jerusalem got destroyed was because their worldly enemy (in this case, the Romans; earlier, the Egyptians, Syrians, and Babylonians) were exponentially more powerful, and there was nothing that God the Father could do about it. Kind of like when the saints got booted out of Missouri and Illinois no matter how hard they prayed. Jack: First, Jesus went out and made a whip of cords before He cleared the Temple. I’ve often wondered how long that might have taken him. This bespeaks the notion that his actions were well measured and controlled. This wasn’t a man smashing things in a fit of rage. Right. He didn’t just flip out and beat a bunch of people senseless. He actually plotted and planned. In a legal framework, that actually makes it much worse. |
DKL, I think you are making a lot of factual claims about what Jesus did, said, what history shows, etc, that are just your opinion. Stating that Jesus hated Jews as a fact is again just your opinion. The same goes for your other scriptural interpretations. Many historians from those leaning left like Crossan, Borges, or more conservative historians like NT Wright would disagree with many of your factual conclusions. I think you are deciding to read certain passages because of your predisposition in the same manner you accuse others of justifying all of Jesus statements because of their ideas they bring to the text. as a side note, there is a real textual debate over the whipping incident. Many scholars argue that the object of the verb is the animals and not any individuals. |
See, DKL, this is why it’s so dangerous for anyone to agree with you. As soon as anyone gets aboard your train, you drive it right off a cliff. |
DKL: “Actually, history shows that Jesus wasn’t teaching anything different from what the scribes and the Pharisees were teaching for the century leading up to Christ’s birth.” Yep. They both taught that they each, respectively, possessed a fullness of truth. |
As for everything else– You are right–unless, of course, you are wrong. |
J. Madson, that’s just your opinion, and it’s a mistaken one at that. There is no “Jesus Biography,” just a bunch of stuff written down several decades after he lived and then narrowed down to 4 gospels over the ensuing centuries as most views of Jesus fell out of favor. Read E. P. Sanders or Chiam Maccabee on the topic: Jesus’s moral teachings were standard, first century Jewish moral precepts just like those taught by the Pharasees. Only those who take Jesus’ Jew-hatred at face value suppose otherwise. The conventional scholarly view is that Jesus’ hysterically anti-Jewish tirades and continuing polemic against family unity were added by Christians seeking to distance themselves from Judaism and make clear that they had no loyalty to Judaism at all, even though many Christians came from Jewish backgrounds. The need to do this arose, of course, because Christians wanted to avoid the intense persecution that the Romans were inflicting on the Jews after the Romans destroyed the temple and subsequently destroyed Jerusalem and changed the name of Israel to Palestine. This, of course, prompts the question of how many other “teachings of Jesus” and “stories of Jesus” were made up in the latter half of the 1st century AD by people with ulterior motives, and my answer is, “a lot.” And this, of course, poses a serious problem for people who wish to follow Jesus’ example. MCQ: See, DKL, this is why it’s so dangerous for anyone to agree with you That’s a very strange thing to say, MCQ. We’re blogging here. What could possibly be dangerous about it? |
I apologize for getting a bit too caught up in the particulars of this argument. This began with a discussion over the moral flaws of Jesus’ teachings. My purpose in discussing these has been threefold:
This, as I see it, is the bigger picture. If we can agree that it is arguable that there are flaws in Christ’s teachings, then we needn’t agree on whether they are bona fide flaws. |
DKL, Im not sure I was arguing for any Jesus Biography and you are arguing with a straw man to an extent. What opinion did I proffer other than to question your assertions? It is not opinion that there is a real textual debate over the whipping incident. Neither is it an opinion that many scholars disagree with you. Yes, they could be wrong, but so could you. My main point was that there are many historians that disagree with your assertions. There are very legitimate textual and historical debates and it is not one sided. I tend to think NT Wright is better on these issues than most and offers a very legitimate approach to the NT. As to your bigger picture, I have no problem with people disagreeing with teachings from any source. At some point I wonder whether we have a good understanding of his teachings in the first place. What would be your source then? yourself. |
J. Madson: What would be your source then? yourself. Yawn. Just another straw man. I provided two sources in my previous comment. Besides, I know more about this crap than any of the fools that you mention. All I need to I say is, “I believe that it is so” and it means more than all the silly scholars you mention combined. I laugh at your scholars, and the expansive and mighty depth of my knowledge makes dullards and imbeciles of them for the small and shallow footprint of their overall expertise and meatball scholarship! J. Madson: Im not sure I was arguing for any Jesus Biography and you are arguing with a straw man to an extent Too bad all of the scholars you point to are pre-occupied with the “historical Jesus.” J. Madson: My main point was that there are many historians that disagree with your assertions. Please explain how this responds to any of my arguments. Haven’t you learned yet that you can’t respond to reasoned arguments with citations of authority? For example, you can’t respond to the assertion, “No part is equal to the whole” simply by saying, “Bertrand Russell said that was false.” You actually have to cite his argument. If you want to present an argument that disagrees, then by all means present it and I’ll respond. But you’re being intellectually dishonest to expect me to argue with the authorities that you cite while you refuse to state or clarify their arguments and then accuse me of burning straw men. |
DKL, I was asking what is your source for morality not your ruminations on Jesus and I was seriously asking not making an argument. Is it yourself or some external source? As for the rest, Its fine if you fashion yourself as more an expert than the scholars I mentioned (have you even read NT Wright’s scholarly works?). As far as I could tell, you have made more assertions than reasoned arguments. I tend to believe that much less of the text was later additions than you seem to believe and I dont see Jesus as being “hysterically” anti-Jewish. I am interested in what the text actually says, but I think that requires context both textually and historically. I really didnt want to get into a pissing match over what scholar A says or scholar B says. I just wanted to point out that the scumbag Jew hating Jesus you describe or more accurately you claim the gospels describe is not the dominant view in scholarship but one of many. The only argument I presented before was in passing that the animals were just as likely the object of the verb for whipping and not the people. The whip of cords is only mentioned in the fourth gospel which as an aside is considered the least historical and accurate by many. The word used is ekballo which throughout the gospels is used as an authoritative dismissal or casting out and arguably is being used in a similar manner (it seems unlikely Jesus could physically remove an entire crowd and is likely more to do with his words and presence). Lastly, the object of the verb may very likely be the animals. The pantas(all, referring to who or what he cast out) arguably connects to the probata and boas (sheep and oxen, clarifying who he cast out) rendering the passage more as Jesus cast out of the temple all, both the sheep and oxen. If such is the case you may want to reconsider your assertions about the incident outside the temple. |
J. Madson: I was asking what is your source for morality not your ruminations on Jesus and I was seriously asking not making an argument. Is it yourself or some external source? Everyone gets their source of morality from an external source. When an individual accepts morality from an external source, she must make an individual moral judgement that is anterior to the external source. Thus, all morality always begins with the individual. Kant pointed this out centuries ago, and nobody’s laid a finger on it since. That said, you’re welcome to try. J. Madson: I just wanted to point out that the scumbag Jew hating Jesus you describe or more accurately you claim the gospels describe is not the dominant view in scholarship but one of many. I’m perfectly aware how willing some folks are to explain away everything that Jesus says that makes them uncomfortable. We’ve seen a lot of that in this thread, and there’s a lot of that in the literature. The only alternative argument offered here to mitigate Jesus’ hysterical Jew-hating and his polemic on family unity is based on the pre-supposition that Jesus was right and the Jews actually were wicked. (Actually, I think someone besides me might have fielded the alternative that He was misquoted.) If you’d like to field another alternative, feel free. Showing up to name a few scholars doesn’t actually add anything to the discussion. J. Madson: The whip of cords is only mentioned in the fourth gospel which as an aside is considered the least historical and accurate by many. Right. By the point John got written, the Awesome-Mortal-Jesus legends had become so deeply entrenched that everywhere Jesus goes they’re in awe of Him — as opposed to the other gospels, where Jesus is pretty much a regular Guy who happens to perform a few miracles, even though the miracles don’t manage to raise that many eyebrows (as you probably know, reports of miracles were quite common in the pre-internet age). J. Madson: The word used is ekballo which throughout the gospels is used as an authoritative dismissal or casting out and arguably is being used in a similar manner. Arguably? I don’t think so. This type of argument from consistency of usage works really well for the Old Testament, where Hebrew speakers are self-consciously writing, editing, and redacting scriptures using a scriptural version of Hebrew. All of this provides a unifying factor across the wildly divergent approaches of many of its authors. But the writers of the New Testament were not writing scriptures. To the New Testament authors, the scriptures were always the Old Testament (or Old Testament pseudepigrapha) — never New Testament era writings. And the choice of Koine Greek was a pragmatic one, which had no religious import at all. So one author’s word usage in the New Testament constitutes a very week argument for the nuanced interpretation of another author. Furthermore, the New Testament authors have an uneven grasp on Koine Greek. Some are better at it than others. John does not seem to be among the most fluent in Koine Greek. This makes the New Testament (and the Gospel of John in particular) even less liable to an analysis that grabs nuance from other authors’ word usage. Moreover, for thousands of years, from the time that we first see people discussing Jesus’ clearing of the temple, everyone understands the story as saying that Jesus cleared the temple of its patrons using a cat-o-nine-tails, from the first time the story was told and repeated and commented on. The alternative that you suggest — which just happens (by mere coincidence?) to bring the story more in line with early-21st-century moral sensibilities — is not compelling enough to overturn millennia of scriptural exegesis of a story whose words have always been pretty well understood. Lastly, given the preponderance of Awesome-Mortal-Jesus legends in John’s gospel, it won’t due to claim that his feat of clearing the temple is unduly heroic for a single man. Looks like you’re the one who needs to re-examine the your assertions. I do appreciate your detailed reply, because I’m happy to engage in this kind of discussion with you. I don’t really know more than Crossan, Borges, or Wright, but I thought that it was a funny thing to say. And I do appreciate that you’re probably not used to running into Mormons who actually know a lot about the New Testament. Look at it this way: Talking with me a lot will allow you to grow accustomed to it. |
DKL, I appreciate your response and I agree with your first point. I also agree with much of or most of your original post. My issue was more with the Jesus interpretation. I dont see the Jew hating. One could argue its more there in John but much less so in the synoptics. Im also not sure who you see as Jews in this Jew hating. Are you referring to a certain class of individuals, a certain religious group or beliefs, a political group, who exactly? Jesus certainly had harsh words, as recorded, for certain individuals and groups but I think we need to try to figure out who exactly he was addressing and why. After all, he was a Jewish prophet. I also dont see a polemic on the family in the way you do but thats fine. It’s certainly a problematic text for those wanting to take the NT serious. As for the miracles, yes it was very very common to have mystics running around ancient world. If thats all Jesus was then its much ado about nothing. I would point out that if John contains Awesome-Mortal-Jesus legends as you suggest then we should certainly be skeptical that a whipping incident took place historically given that John alone adds the whip of cords not to mention the textual issues which you find unpersuasive. Im just not sure I would take John’s account at face value when the synoptics dont agree with it. |
Jesus has harsh words for everyone who disagrees with him, and it just so happens that the Jews are the only ones who stand up to him. Regarding John, I tend to think that anything John says that is not in other gospels is likely made up. Either way, there are flaws in Jesus’ moral teachings. We may posit some flawless set of teachings that has been corrupted, but that’s only because we are reasoning backwards from his perfection to eliminate that which we find objectionable — nobody argues that Jesus never said “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” |
“That’s a very strange thing to say, MCQ. We’re blogging here. What could possibly be dangerous about it?” Just making a joke, based on your “crazy train” comment. Anyway, I thought it was funny. |
““Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy†lesson in priesthood and relief society. This lesson admonishes us not to criticize church leaders. I’m tired of hearing this taught at church. The truth is that it’s OK to dislike certain things about the church. It’s OK to disagree with leaders. And it’s OK to say so.” You have clearly misunderstood the lesson. It said of those who CRITICIZE LEADERS WHILE CLAIMING TO BE BOTH SINNLESS THEMSELVES AND BETTER THAN THOSE LEADERS. Claiming that its wrong to teach only positive history isn’t saying that you are better than the leadership just that you don’t agree -yet! But on reading your responses here, I’d bet that you are well on the road to apostasy. Enjoy the trip :) |
And the scriptures are advancing a hair-brained idea as well. It is demonstrably false. Producing child pornography is worse than adultery, and it needn’t even involve fornication. Being a wife-beater or child-beater is worse than being an adulterer. I’d argue that even engaging in emotional abuse of spouse or children is worse than adultery. This notion that adultery is second only to murder is the result of an unhealthy fixation on sex that causes a profound lack of perspective, and it causes much more misery than adultery itself does. Back in Joseph Smith’s day, if you committed adultery, you could confess and apologize to the Nauvoo High Council and not even lose your calling. 1) Adultery is not defined as fornication in any scripture I know of. Child pornography is a form of adultery. You can say one thing is worse than another all day long, but it won’t matter. I could say that being a wife-beater or child-beater is nothing compared to the psychological and eternal effects of adultery on wife and children. That doesn’t make it a correct assertion. 2) The greatest commandment is Love God. The scripture exhorting “hate” for one’s family is obviously a reinforcement of committing oneself to God before other relationships. Besides, you only get your spouse and God in eternity, anyway. I definitely respect your opinion. I think you should stay out of this business, though. There is no way to prove yourself right. Please write up a post on Jesus’ vile teachings. I hope to understand this more. |
nasamomdele: Child pornography is a form of adultery. This is just silly. As a practical matter, the fact that child pornography is outlawed does not render adultery laws redundant. Furthermore, as a purely technical matter, adultery can only occur between married people, but you needn’t be married to make or consume child pornography. Besides, I provide several examples, so that you need more than a single counter-example to successfully refute my reasoning. nasamomdele: I definitely respect your opinion. I think you should stay out of this business, though. There is no way to prove yourself right. All you want to do is pick and choose which scriptures are “obviously” hyperbole or metaphorical based on what you find offensive. So you and I both agree that a commandment to hate the family is vile. You’re simply offering an auxiliary hypothesis to explain it away. It’s “obvious” to you, because your reasoning is circular on account of the fact that you’ve reasoned backwards from the conclusion that is up for argument. |
Practically and technically, your explanation of child pornography is for Perry Mason and not for theological discussion. One of the “vile” teachings of Jesus is that to look on a woman with lust is adultery- that seems like ample commandment against one form of pornography. I don’t think it is wrong to extend this to men and children as well. And obviously, a commandment to hate the family is vile. Such a commandment has about as much to do with Jesus Christ as the title “Superstar”. I hope you aren’t suggesting that Christ specifically said “hate” and that it was thereafter preserved as such. I am interested as to why you cling to the word “hate” in a translation of an ancient record, much less one that you so openly despise in the first place. We know scripture has been translated and more or less changed over the centuries. There is no reason to think that much of it is 100% viable as word-for-word word of God. That is why we talk about things like the spirit so much. So much of the meaning falls outside of intellectual grasp. Thus we have to pick and choose what is misrepresentation (not necessarily metaphorical) and correct it according to modern teachings and restoration scripture. Of course we could be wildly wrong. You’re in the same game, though. You take words from a translation of the Bible and conclude that a teaching is vile. I would assume that your thorough intellectualism takes scripture very literally, but such intellectualism ought to reject that very assumption based on the fact that you are dealing with translation. If you were speaking from a primary source, such complaints would have more weight. But you are picking and choosing the translation that supports your hypothesis, as well. I’m not saying that I approach your level of intellectual rigor on the matter, and I don’t desire to. I’ve come to the conclusion in my life that such rigor does little for my benefit without spiritual rigor to match. Thus I have come to my conclusions that I can and must pick and choose, but not according to what offends, because I would still call a lot of Christ’s teachings offensive, but not vile. If you want an intellectual opinion, the Bible is a mythological account of an ancient people that only serves to support their ideals for the socialization of their society, with religion being the anchor. One cannot take any of it literally. |
nasamomdele: One of the “vile†teachings of Jesus is that to look on a woman with lust is adultery- that seems like ample commandment against one form of pornography. You can’t be serious. Regardless of what Jesus says about adultery, the church’s stance is clear: Lusting after another woman is not adultery. Adultery, in the “sexual-relations” sense, is punishable by excommunication. You don’t even have to talk to your bishop about lusting after another woman. Furthermore, if you’ve read The Miracle of Forgiveness, you’d know that Spencer Kimball intends the term “adultery” to refer to actual sexual relations (e.g., sex, heavy petting, etc.), regardless of whatever Jesus says. And if you think that Corianton in the Book of Mormon simply lusted after Jezabel, then you pretty much stand alone. In short, nasamomdele, your argument is not tenable. |
DKL, Religion has SOMEthing to do with faith. And so for those who have faith in Jesus it’s not necessarily a matter of being intellectually dishonest when they interpret scripture differently than you do as there are a host of influences that inform the believer’s faith–not just the New Testament. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it may be intellectually dishonest –for Mormons in particular–to go over the words of the NT with a magnifying glass without referencing any other text or influence in one’s search for the identity of Jesus. |
DKL, You’re right that we are selective in the teachings of Christ (and the prophets) that we choose to internalize. As for the “adultery, fornication, etc. are sins next to murder” teaching from Alma, I agree that it was hyperbole that is very easily disproven. When Bernard Madoff cheated innocent elderly people out of their life’s work, that was way, way more serious a sin than what happens when two unmarried people get overheated on Squaw Peak. I chalk this controversy up to hyperbole on the part of Alma, nothing more. If you don’t accept Christ’s divinity, then I can see how you would see some of his teachings as vile or problematic. And yes, there is the problem of transmission and the reliability of the Gospels. I have been teaching the NT in Seminary this year, and I have skipped over several passages that I prefer to keep on the shelf until my understanding allows me to make sense of them. As I said before, as a Church, we generally have no idea what to make of the miracle at Cana. I understand that, given the problems of transmission and reliability I just mentioned, it must look strange when educated people still accept the records and substance of the Gospels as more or less valid. But to be a member of the Church and have your view of Christ would make my head explode. I have to congratulate you, because if I believed the things you do about Christ, the picture of my life would probably be far more disturbing than is the picture of yours. I don’t think living even basic principles of the Gospel would be tenable for me. |
I fail to see how the bishop has any bearing on anything. Or how excommunication constitutes the judgment and will of God. We don’t practice the law of consecration to its fullest in the Church either, but that doesn’t mean the expectation isn’t there. You appear to be operating under the assumption that a law of God must be monitored-in- practice to be considered a law. I would call that naive. There are many laws and covenants given by God that we don’t live up to as individuals and as a Church, that we aren’t questioned about in our temple recommend interviews. I’m afraid you’re argument is untenable: 1) Citing non-canonical SWK does nothing for you. 2) The Church has never said that lusting after a woman is not “commiting adultery in one’s heart”. On the contrary, numerous accounts from General Conferences would back up that scripture (as well as connecting pornography to said lust and said adultery in one’s heart). It is not monitored, but that says nothing for the validity of the doctrine. |
Read the thread, nasamombele. The “non-canonical SWK” is exactly whom I’m attacking in the first place, so citing him is all I really need to do. He’s the one I cite as having the hair-brained idea that adultery is the second worst sin. I’m bending over backwards to indulge you here, but you can’t keep the arguments straight, and you’re simply confused about the entire issue. Besides, I name a number of sins worse than adultery that are not murder. You’re argument against adultery is irrelevant. So even if I grant for argument’s sake your buffoonish statement that my argument is “untenable,” you still haven’t laid a finger on my original argument. |
As for Alma & SWK, I don’t recall ever actually thinking that Corianton only lusted after Isabel. I’m not in the business of ranking sins, but a heirarchy appears to be clear: 1) sinning against the Holy Ghost (unpardonable) That’s a deliberate tie for 3rd because all sins are pardonable, but serious. Even murder is pardonable, though taking life is extremely serious. But then soldiers are not punished for murder, even if they kill innocent civilians. I do have to confess I haven’t read a scripture to support my assertion that child pornography is a form of adultery- but I’ll keep my eyes open for you. Of course, the Church is in the business of monitoring sexual relations sins to the tune of probation, disfellowship, and excommunication. Masturbation doesn’t recieve such punishment, but that doesn’t exclude it from a “sexual sin” definition. To try and explain away sins or declarations of the seriousness of sins as hyperbole is an overreaction, I think. To be clear, I’m not making an assertion that adultery/fornication is a sin next to murder, but I think its evident that there is a nebulous paradox associated with any particular sin as to seriousness, pardonability, and punishability. I doubt there is anything cut and dry in sin and judgment. Thus there is room for Alma’s dramatic assertion, though it is most definitely not true in all cases.
It does appear that we are, to some extent, playing the same game here, no? Except that I hesitate to throw out disagreeable scripture as hyperbole and meaningless to my spiritual development. |
1) Adultery and child pornography are sexual sins. Adultery Laws are a different animal entirely. Take those up with the magistrate, they have nothing to do with the laws of God. But if you are referring to the laws of God, there are no such things as adultery laws. There is a law of Chastity, though. 2) Adultery, again as described by Jesus in the NT is simply lusting after a woman. In your heart you have committed adultery. Don’t confuse adultery with fornication. Fornication is just one form of adultery, or breaking the law of Chastity. |
Like I said about SWK, it does nothing for you. I merely stated that he was citing Alma and later stated that adultery is more nebulous that even he or Alma have described, in large part because for one, child pornography was not ever what it is now. As a matter of point, there are different levels of pornography, as well, so you cannot assert that child pornography is more serious than any other sin per se. That being the case for abuse, lying, stealing billions, fornication, and adultery to name a few. According to Alma’s experience at the time, who is to say that adultery was not next to murder? According to SWK’s experience? The fact that you disagree makes not one ripple in the reality of things. Frankly, I don’t see an argument from you as to how one sin is worse than any other. You’re not even trying to support your assertions. Feel free to keep on trying to make me feel stupid, though. Maybe we should work on a definition of adultery, as in what falls into keeping and breaking the law of chastity. And then go from there. I’m entirely unclear as to what you think adultery is and what you think chastity is. |
You’re still arguing beside the point. There are forms of emotional abuse and physical abuse that involve no sexual sins that are far worse than any sexual sin. Besides, your taxonomy of sin severity fails for other reasons. Masturbation is a sexual sin, but it isn’t as bad as (say) theft. All you’re doing is demonstrating a kind of weird preoccupation with sex. |
Or so you say. That may well be the case. A rape victim might tell you that the sin committed against them included all of the above and sexual sin.
I thought I said that.
Interesting thought. I think yours is an argument of preference- an opinion, and nothing more. |
[...] father than I thought about something. See, we had just gotten through that infamous lesson on the bitter fruits of apostasy, and I wasn’t really scared (I also think that apostasy’s been very [...] |
Hmm. Interesting how many of my comments were earlier deleted. In addition to being wrong, DKL, are you purposefully deleting comments so as to not contend with them? Is it right for a perma-blogger to do so? |
They were deleted because the URL you provided with your name linked to a site with inappropriate content. I consider that spam, no matter what the comment says. And as far as what’s right for a perma-blogger to do, go get your own blog and do whatever you feel like. |
I apologize–didn’t realize the site was inappropriate. |
Feel free to re-post the comments, and I’ll be happy to respond. |
“And I respectfully disagree with the notion that criticism of church leaders is among “the bitter fruits of apostasy.” We had this lesson last Sunday. I understood that this is coupled with saying that we are more righteous than the leader, ie criticizing leaders while claiming ourselves to be righteous which is more than just objecting to a policy, practice or behavior. Or saying they are bad and us knowing who to replace them with. Plus taking the first steps to apostasy doesn’t mean that we will become apostates. Everyone will have some bad days. I haven’t read all comments but I did see some comments claiming that adultery is not as bad as emotional abuse. Maybe Jesus’ society didn’t recognize this as a sin back then. But still the damage adultery produces, both to the sinner and the innocent victims like children, is much more than the damage resulting from any kind of violence except for murder, and emotional abuse is a form of violence. Even though our society has accepted sexual relations outside marriage and sometimes encourages it for dating couples it is still canonized as a gross sin. The proof for this is in the time it takes to simply repent from both sins: adultery can take years, incest takes decades usually, but ending emotional abuse and repenting is usually obtained after counseling/teaching what it is and what the person is doing,ie once they understand what is wrong; adulterers usually have a hard time just understanding that their actions were sinful because the claim to be in love or their marriage already ended etc. |
I would question the seriousness of adultery as a general concept. There are differing circumstances. If a couple is apart for a long period, adultery may occur, but on return, life can go on without much damage. If it occurs while they are together, then it is far more serious, but still can be managed. And then the general notion of violence, again there can be incidents which become so frustrating to one of the mates that he or she simply loses it, and then there is continuing violence, which eats at relationship and self esteem. Best not to generalize the issues. Not quite a black and white issue. |
[...] possibly be any moral flaws in Jesus’s teachings. Thus, my fellow perma-blogger Dan Ellsworth, acknowledges that Christ’s teachings contain “head scratchers that we gloss over in our Church classes…,” but still [...] |