“Is there no way to teach them to cover up without implicitly teaching them to be ashamed?”

Probably not. Notice Adam and Eve weren’t “taught to be ashamed”, they just were as this is the “natural” response towards one’s own nakedness.

I don’t know if you can really say only those things a child is born with are natural. Walking seems to develop naturally. It wasn’t there and then they learn to do it. Shame at nakedness may be the same kinda thing.

I agree with Nasamomdele – gradual teaching. I sure do think it is funny to watch our 3 year old run through the house screaming “I am a nakey boy”. It would not be so cute to see a 15 or 40 year old doing so…

If we all went around naked, we’d be cold at time, sure, more prone to skin cancer too, but it would be no big deal, just as it isn’t in some tribal groups in, say, South America. In fact, much of the licentiousness comes with showing a little vs. showing everything. Nude beaches with families frolicking about in the natural, aren’t necessarily bad, maybe more healthy in fact.

Having a healthy attitude instead of a repressed guilt ridden on.

We live in a community where public nudity is common. I think it is related to the fact that most people don’t have indoor plumbing and grow up around entire neighborhoods sharing the same bathroom/toilet space, or are 1/2 a generation out of the jungle village. Hardly a day goes by that we don’t see people bathing naked in the ocean or not even bothering to face away from the road to urinate.

Being the wrong ethnic/racial make-up prohibits our family from trotting out the junk without attracting undo attention, so we are limited there. While we have been generally desensitized to other’s nudity, it certainly doesn’t enrich our lives in anyway.

Our kids don’t seem to have had their attitudes affected by what they see outside our home. Their approach to modesty and privacy pretty much mirrors their parents.

Lucas–that cyclical view is interesting.

I just want to clarify that am not interested in my kids feeling comfortable with public nudity–not our style. All nakedness is in the house and restricted to clothes changing times. But I don’t want my daughter to feel that her chest is “bad” and it would be OK for my sons to feel about themselves the way DKL feels about himself, perhaps without talking about it so much. I am just anxious about the transition because I do think, perhaps especially for women, that the way we view our own bodies can be quite debilitating, and I would prefer it to be liberating.

Kent–I’m sure that last statement was meant in the nicest way, but I hope your wife doesn’t read here!

When my kids are done bathing and are all dried off, they drop the towel and run through the house naked, screaming, “Streaker!” Cute behavior for 2 and 5, but destined for BCC Police Beat Rountable if that behavior continues into their college years.

Interesting reading through these posts. I was surprised that no one followed up on the Garden of Eden events. Remember, it was Satan who told them to cover their bodies with fig leaves because they were naked. Until then they hadn’t noticed. I wonder if it is still Satan who tells us our bodies are evil, nasty and/or dirty? Because they aren’t even though we do have to learn to cover up as we grow up.

“Is there no way to teach them to cover up without implicitly teaching them to be ashamed?”

YES!

My wife and I asked the very same question of each other when our kids (son eight, daughter ten) were your kid’s age. Our answer: Keep doors open at home, even after they become “aware”. Today, the four of us in our little family think nothing at all of being nude in front of each other, but our kids understand the concept of modesty very well. We are never naked just for the sake of being naked, but when nudity is called for (mostly bath and shower time) nobody hides. Our daughter will soon be eleven and still loves to linger in the nude long after shower time is over, and even at other times, for no reason she’ll just get the urge to be free of clothing and will often spend several hours around the house naked. She has no “shame” of her body what so ever, but still understands what modesty is and how to live it.

I could fill pages on the benefits of an open-door policy at home (won’t bore you now… ask for details if you want them), but suffice it to say that we have noticed that our kids seem to have a much more healthy view of the human body because of it. And, #8 John Mansfield, yes, I do believe that “healthy” is exactly the right word :-)

#19 Cath – dead on. This is an often overlooked aspect of the clothing / Garden of Eden story. There was no shame of being naked until Satan instilled it.

Great thread. Thanks ESO.

#8. It would be a bid deal to me. But I was thinking, if everybody else went around naked I could tell if other women were as fat as I am and I might not feel so bad.

My 8 year old granddaughter threw a towel around herself after a bath and was marching downstairs to get her clothes where her 13 year old cousin was watching TV. We caught her and put a robe on her.

I think little kids–toddlers exult in the freedom of no clothes and the air on their bodies. I find clothes constricting. When I get off work, the first thing I take off are my shoes, then the brassiere. Men are lucky not having to wear those “over the shoulder boulder holders” (Bette Midler). I was talking to a very sweet and modest Mormon lady and she totally agreed with me.

I don’t think it’s a big deal at all with little kids and the key word to teaching them is “lovingly.”

DKL: TMI. Harold will be mortified. What does this have to do with Mormonism? We people are crazy.

Bryan, no offense but I think an 11 year old should wear clothes around her dad. Moms see their kids naked longer than dads because they’ve cared for those bodies more intimately. I don’t know, it’s borderline.

I went to some seminar long ago and the psychologist said adults should avoid shared nudity with their kids. I can’t remember the exact reason but I agree. It’s okay when you shower with your babies or toddlers or just changing for practicality’s sake but emphasizing it in the context for the sake of “we’re all comfortable with our bodies” and going around naked with your kids over time is just not healthy.

Your kids will pick up on attitudes of privacy and self respect, body image, etc. I guess there are two extremes, those who go all nutso and shame their kids and those who go overboard celebrating nudity. That modesty will develop fairly naturally in a normal healthy family setting.
one thing I’ve noticed is how proud males are of their chests. Skinny adolescent boys parade around feeling cool without shirts. I had this guy painting my house–he was LDS and in my ward and he came in shorts. Nothing else. I’ll never get that gross image out of my mind. He sure had nothing to show for without a shirt.

But if he’d been George Clooney I wouldn’t want him painting my house without a shirt on.

I guess I’m a different generation.

When I was 13 my best friend’s father would take naps on the couch, totally naked. It grossed me out, and I don’t feel any healthier about my own body as a result.

Bill is a very modest and proper man without being obnoxious about it and my girls don’t have any negative body issues. I think they might if their dad had gone around buck naked in front of them regularly.

It’s one thing to be natural and not overbearing while respecting each other’s privacy and teaching self respect and another to make such a big deal out of being proud of your body everybody in your family goes around naked. I do not think that’s healthy. It’s iconoclastic for the sake of iconoclasm. Dumb.

Not that I’m not often iconoclastic for the sake of it but still…

I guess I pretty much totally disagree with you Lynn. Just because a therapist said it doesn’t make it hogwash. Once in awhile they get it right.

#25 annegb: “When I was 13 my best friend’s father would take naps on the couch, totally naked. It grossed me out, and I don’t feel any healthier about my own body as a result.”

:-)

An understandable reaction… most American raised, Christian 13 year old children would react this way to a the nudity of a friend’s father… and perhaps even their own father. I would submit, however, that you reacted this way not because there was something inherently gross about this man’s naked body. Let’s remember that God created our bodies, and he does not create anything gross. I would surmise that you were grossed out by this incident because your cultural upbringing led you to believe that you should have been.

“Nudity is icky” is what we are all taught almost from birth. Unless of course, the nudity belongs to a beautiful, well formed young female, or a strapping muscular young male. Then it’s sexy.

How wrong is that?

There are some cultural ideas and traditions that become such a deep part of our belief system, and of everyone’s around us, that it can become almost impossible for us to grasp the idea that they are, in fact, only cultural ideas and traditions, and not universal reality. In fact, it can often be the case that when someone challenges these ideas that everyone around them denounces them as a little confused at best, or at worst mentally unsound.

This idea that there is something inherently wrong with nudity being common place among mixed gender family members, I believe, is one of them. Assuming that sexual behavior and relationship’s between mom and dad is kept perfectly private behind closed doors, I’m at a loss to understand why simply viewing God’s creation (the human body) could harm anyone. The only reason we *think* it could be harmful is because our deep mingled traditions of Victorian, Catholicism, Puritan, Protestant, Jewish religion and society have been telling us this for hundreds of years, and we’ve chosen to believe it without questioning.

I choose to question.

Why is it wrong for family members to see each other without clothing? How will it harm, damage, or corrupt them? To be clear, I’m not talking about an immodest, immoral, sexual parade of human flesh. I’m talking about modest, moral, humble nudity… the kind exhibited when one emerges from the shower, towels off, and then get’s dressed. Why must this be done in private, or only in front of those of the same gender?

Going back to ESO’s original post, the question was asked, “Is there no way to teach them to cover up without implicitly teaching them to be ashamed?”

I submit that an open door policy at home does more then help our kids avoid body shame. It also teaches them the truth about the human body… that they are ALL beautiful no matter what they look like, that some are not icky and others yummy. It helps them avoid the fierce curiosity that leads to playing doctor when they are young, and to pornography and promiscuity when they are older, as the question of “what does the other gender look like” is already answered, and it’s answered in a setting that is safe, loving, and secure. It helps them recognize the lies of Hollywood and the media, and the truth of the true, divine nature of our bodies. It helps them avoid the body-based self esteem issues that are so rampant among our youth, most especially our young women.

I said in my previous post that we have already noticed benefits from raising our kids in a home where nudity is not treated as something to be shunned. I’ll share a condensed version of an already short story….

Not too long ago a band of neighbor kids (ages ~5 to 8) were all playing in our back yard when my wife heard shrill shrieks and screams from the girls, and howls of laughter from the boys. She was close enough to the back door to witness the final moments of the incident. One of the neighbor boys was “showing himself” to all the girls, and doing so with a great deal of pride and gusto. He was taking great delight in putting his manliness on display. The girls, of course, were doing their best to play the part of the proper, modest, shocked heroin by screaming and acting horrified, and yet, my wife noted, they all seemed to be rather enjoying the moment.

Of all the kids, three were not responding at all, and looked like they were confused, at a loss, and even a little annoyed with the entire situation. Two were my own, and one was a girl from down the street. These three kids all seemed to share the same response: “This is stupid” (actual words from my daughter).

Later, when news of the incident was spread across the neighborhood, all the moms involved held an informal pow-wow. The mother of the boy who had flashed the entire band of neighborhood kids (although it was not a flash, it was a prolonged exposure), was of course mortified, as was the mother of the boy who had dared him to do it. The reaction (or non-reaction?) of the other three kids was also discussed. My wife, a firm advocate of an open-door family to anyone who will listen, suggested that her kids responded this way because to them, seeing a naked boy was absolutely no big deal, and they were confused as to why he would put himself on display like that, and as to why all the girls freaked out. The other mom (of the girl who also did not react) agreed, and said that in their home they also keep doors open.

Now, in my mind, what happened next is down right backwards and bizarre. Rather then listen and give heed to an alternative parenting option that may have some merit (as just witnessed), the mothers of the other kids, the boy who had dared his friend to expose himself, and the boy who had done it, and the girls who enjoyed it despite their outward protests…. they all turned on my wife and this other open-door mother and denounced open-doors as a terrible idea, as something that would lead to trouble, as something that was unhealthy and weird and unnatural.

… Ummm …

I dunno… does something about that seem backwards to anyone else?

And this is just one story. I could fill volumes!

Bryan

annegb,

First let me say that I definitely disapprove of your friend’s dad napping naked on the couch — particularly if he did it while you were in the house.

But having said that, I also think it’s unfortunate that the experience has caused you to go to the opposite extreme. I mean “adults should avoid shared nudity with their kids”? Give me a break. So I guess all the men who swam naked with their sons at the YMCA (keep in mind that suits generally weren’t worn in YMCA pools until the 1960′s when they became co-ed) were bad fathers? (By the way, I find it rather interesting that you made a point of telling us that the person who gave that advice was a therapist, then later on you decided that others were rejecting the idea “just because a therapist said it”. :) )

Get a grip, CG.

Thank you, you just confirmed the impression that I had tentatively formed.

There is a family in our ward that proudly espouses the “open door” policy. They are interesting to say the least.

The oldest child, a 17 yr. old son, has recently moved out and is living in a crash pad with a bunch of other disaffected youth. The part I think about is when this young man confessed to my then 14 yr. old son on a Boy Scout outing that he had sex when he was 14 and thought he got the girl pregnant.

He apparently is a typical (horn dog) young man and has sex on his mind 24-7. He also has very little impulse control. I hope he makes it to high school graduation and doesn’t end up getting a girl pregnant.

I don’t think his parents extreme openness has helped this young man at all. Time will tell, along with his 5 younger siblings.

I also vote neither parent ever be put in leadership positions over youth.

I tend to agree that moderation is best on these types of issues. I have 5 boys 9 and under. They are nude when changing clothes and bathing. The younger ones like to run around nude after bath time. Its kind of funny.

I think its wrong to be esp prudish and wrong to go to far the other way.

Its always fun to see the imput of LDS nudists who usually show up when this topic is discussed.

We have Naked Hour for 4 and under right before bath time.

Oops, the formatting didn’t come out the way I expected.

It’s also funny when this topic comes up at Church … and you realize who the nudists are in your ward.

In your book, are open-door families “nudists”?

Hi annegb,

Let me start by thanking you for responding to the question I asked queuno.

Looking back, I see now that what I said to you in post #31 was too vague to serve any purpose:

Get a grip, CG.

Thank you, you just confirmed the impression that I had tentatively formed.

I ought to have added there that I’m really not interested in further discussion with you, since you’ve made it clear that you’re just going to use ad hominems to avoid engaging what I have to say (and presumably not just me but anyone who dares to call you on your assertion that “adults should avoid shared nudity with their kids”).

Sorry for the confusion,
- CG.

…Well, I looked it up (I know it’s been explained before). It is a very tricky phrase. Because it sounds like name calling but it also could be missing the point or changing the subject, sort of. I’m sure I do that. In a way ad hominem strikes me as a great way to argue unless it’s with the lawyers here.

I looked up non sequiter and I do that, too, I’m sure. Also dichotomy and oxymoron. Dichotomy reminds me of Sylvester Stallone because he uses it a lot and it was surprising the first time I heard it. I’ve never been able to use it in a sentence though. I use oxymoron a lot. THAT word I totally get.

I read back and I don’t see ad hominem. I thought we were all having a good civil disagreement until I got on your bad side.

Being accused of ad hominem puts me in the same with my best friend, DKL, so I feel okay about that. I would say I’m too dumb to use ad hominem but maybe not.

…Am I bugging you, CG? :)

I’m blogging on my way home from Wyoming and I must say my Blackberry is totally paying fo itself because I haven’t screamed once over Bill’s driving.

Back to the subject, reading over, I like nasomomdele’s #4 and also your #13, ESO, I wonder if (women, especially) we always see the flaws in our bodies no matter what.

I guess if I were to use an ad hominem I would call myself a moron because I didn’t read all the posts carefully before posting. Dang, I do that all the time.