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Interesting. Here’s my take (long, sorry): About a year ago, somebody in the Bloggernacle posted on why it’s so hard for non-Mormons to “get” the Church and its doctrines. They said, this difficulty is in large part due to the absence of a trained ecclesiastical class. There is a doctrinal void that is always open to interpretation. The writer concluded, something like this: “In the end, what makes up being a Mormon has more to do with what you DO than what you BELIEVE.” Personally, I found the comment at first to be a little embarrassing. For one, defining your faith by only whether you keep, say, the Word of Wisdom, etc., makes us look like a bunch of wrong-headed Pharisees that focus only on all the rules and regulations, i.e., salvation comes through the law. Moreover, it makes us out to be a bunch of fuzzy-minded idiots. I mean, why can’t we subject our faith and its doctrines to critical thinking? On the other hand, I believe the comment is absolutely accurate, and I’m at peace with it. For whatever reason, being a part of the Mormon community has more to do with what you do, than what you think. In that sense, then, praying for forgiveness, giving time and efforts to help others, paying tithing, praying, reading the scriptures, etc., to me places me smack dab in the center of the Gospel train. And no self-righteous, narrow-minded idiot in Gospel Doctrine class can tell me otherwise. Couple that with my long-standing view that the Gospel train has plenty of room for almost everyone, and I feel totally at home in the Church. Any cognitive dissonance I might feel between my own convictions and what I hear from some member in Elder’s Quorum members is frankly something I expect (in any organization) and it doesn’t bother me that much. Finally, I have this phrase “the pulpit is very patient” imprinted in my head. I think God has to laugh at some of the abominable things that get passed off from the Sacrament Meeting pulpit as the final word and so, too, I often shrug off some of the overbearing “pulpiteers” out there. For some reason, I am able to shrug off some of the crap that I hear and it doesn’t get me worked up. In that vein, then, I won’t attack nor defend Kaimi Wenger, nor will I attack nor defend Adam Greenwood. But I don’t have to. I am grown up enough to be able to read what they say, accept that part which is true, and disregard the rest. |
A hearty Amen, DKL. |
well said. |
“…because we Mormons should know better…” +1 |
DKL, I think it’s more a case of expectations. As an analogy, consider the case of Christopher Buckley and The National Review – but imagine that he didn’t resign after his Obama endorsement. It’s ok to endorse Obama, it’s ok for National Review to have a current writer that endorses Obama, but doing so would change the overall atmosphere of the organization – and what people expect from it. If someone had the expectation that the National Review was “on their side” when it came to politics then they might be disappointed and have to readjust where exactly the magazine lies on the conservative / liberal divide. This might impact their interest level in reading the magazine – we’re all busy and we filter based on our preferences as well as biases. So it goes with Times & Seasons. If someone had the expectation that the organization and all it’s contributors were fully “on their side” (however they define that) when it came to belief in Mormon Doctrine and the various cultural controversies we find ourselves in, then this episode, and what was revealed by it, might make them reconsider. There is nothing wrong with having a range of religious beliefs and conviction on a blog, just like there is nothing wrong with having a range of political beliefs and conviction for a magazine. But if you find your expectations don’t match reality then you have to adjust them – that is what I see happening right now. |
This eclecticism, aptly captured by Joseph’s express repudiation of creeds, makes all of us cafeteria Mormons, and this is a rich heritage that we should embrace with pride Rock on DKL |
My hope for the Bloggernacle is that it becomes less dominated by certain personalities… |
My thanks both to DKL and Hunter for your post and comment. |
I don’t know anything about the Adam Greenwood thing, so I won’t comment on that. But I do wholeheartedly support the idea of a diversity of belief within the LDS faith. I like the idea of this Church being a “big tent” with room for differing views on areas outside the ambit of core essentials (which I think are far more limited in nature than many Mormons imagine). I may think a guy who believes in “No Death Before the Fall” is totally off base and wrongheaded. But I celebrate the fact that he and I are able to sit next to each other in the pew on Sunday and partake of the same sacrament without qualifications. It’s a great thing to me. As far as I’m concerned, if you’re willing to make and keep sacred covenants, you’re in. Whether you think the current prophet is wrong about, say… whether women should hold the priesthood is of no concern to me. Will you keep the covenants? If so, you’re in. |
Thanks for this, DKL. I’ve enjoyed various posts you’ve authored over the last couple of years, but this may very well be my favorite. |
Cat fight! (Just don’t attack my opinions) |
Aluwid, the Christopher Buckley example is a better one than you think, because Buckley’s much ballyhoo’d resignation was actually quite a bit less than that, and Christopher Buckley was able to parley it into enough publicity that he went from being totally unheard of (“Buckley? Hmmm. Is he related somehow to William F?”) to being someone that a few people actually knew about, albeit in connection with some dustup at the National Review because of Obama. Anyway, here’s the real story about Buckley’s “resignation.” |
Aluwid, the only problem with your analogy is that nobody at National Review has made covenants to anyone else there. All of the people who are noisily denouncing KW are bound by promises to God that they will regard him as being not only “on the same side,” but in the same family–the family of Christ. That ought to be stronger than rumored doctrinal disagreements. |
DKL, you misunderstand Adam Greenwood. It isn’t about what Kaimi believed or didn’t. What it is about is how Kaimi disrespected the LDS Church and its members, and then lied about who they were and what they really believed when at T&S. Much of this is the same as a supposed friend or person of respect who might be friendly to your face, but then turn around and tell others how disgusting you are. That is breaking the covenant of honesty at the least. |
I’m going to miss Adam Greenwood- to me, he was the well-meaning freeway accident of the bloggernacle, whether he was telling people they were not allowed to call him Adam, discussing his missionary cuddles, or simply expressing an utter contempt for everyone else in the bloggernacle. Every time he posted, I had a hard time looking away. It’s not as interesting now that he’s just yet another self-identified “orthodox” blogger. |
Jettboy, If the Bloggernacle is doing it right, we are all on the same side. That, to me, is what is frustrating about this entire endeavor. I like both Kaimi and Adam. I don’t feel a need to choose between them and I am a little irritated that Adam does. But I’ll get over it. |
I have often thought that other people at Church might be horrified at my thoughts, feelings, or beliefs about certain things. They see me as a BIC, pioneer-stock, RM, Mother in Zion. Yet if they really knew what I thought of some things, I think they would feel betrayed–because they would think I have misled them. I thought of that as I watched this episode unfold yesterday. I would hate to have some sort of orthodoxy test to come to Church, teach Sunday School, or post on a Mormon blog. The only such test we have is a Temple Recommend Interview and it is enough. |
Who would have thought DKL would be the voice of reason, diplomacy, and sanity in this tempest in a teacup? ;) But DKL, you — with Steve Evans’ assisting comment — have said it perfectly. Thank you. |
A very important point and well said. So much of conference was about not judging others faith. Personally, I’m glad for the variety of opinions they make me think and that is never a bad thing. |
DKL, I forgot to address the point you made in your post- every single member of the Church is a cafeteria Mormon; the self-identified orthodox tend to “pick and choose” the more extreme rhetoric of Church leaders from several decades ago, because they don’t think the current leadership is tough enough on apostates, liberals, Democrats, Socialism etc. |
John C., so what you are saying is that Adam’s arguments about Kaimi’s dishonesty are wrong. That still leaves the issue more about honesty than about who we should consider faithful. In Adam’s view, to be dishonest is to be unfaithful. You then have to argue if dishonesty shows a lack of real faith or if Kaimi really was dishonest. ESO proves the point really. Are those who are “unorthodox” truthful? Should that matter? That is the real question this poses, and not so much the “faithful” label of judgment. |
Curses! My covert plan to take over the bloggernacle and subject it to my own cult of personality is being undermined! Err…um…sorry about that. Actually, as someone who is just a casual observer of the bloggernacle, I’m finding it hard to figure out what’s really going on here. It’s all very inside baseball to me. It’s like I stumbled upon the aftermath of a high school brawl–in a high school that I’ve never attended and I don’t understand the social dynamics. |
Jettboy–I am not sure you understand my comment. People may assume I am “orthodox,” which really means that I believe exactly as THEY believe, but that assumption is their thing. I do not contribute to it. I am not tricking them. If they chose to ascribe certain values to the fact that I served a mission or taught at the MTC or was BIC, well, that is their business. They would have no right to feel betrayed if I, for example, admitted to concern over the origins of the practice of polygamy, but they may feel that way, nonetheless. It was not my doing. |
Exactly Jettboy, If you want to assume someone is “orthodox” and simply assume that the word “orthodox” means “he agrees with me,” then frankly that’s your own stupid fault and no one else’s. |
Jettboy, I am admittedly new in the bloggernacle and don’t have the longest view of AG, KW, or really any of the other voices here–as such, I may be completely off base in my remarks. However, when I read your responses to John C and ESO and others in the context of this great mess, the overarching crime I see is that a seemingly final judgment has been pronounced on KW by AG. Supposing, just for the sake of argument, that each and every one of AG’s gripes about KW’s religious view are valid and that KW’s beliefs would find him on the outside looking in when it comes to things Celestial, the problem in proclaiming such a supposed truth to the rest of us is that it belies the fact that a person’s testimony and worthiness before God are dynamic–not static. The danger to me in airing so much dirty laundry and publicly accusing one another is that it may motivate someone sitting on the threshold of the Church’s doorway to move away from the porch entirely and out into the street, from whence they may not ever return. Moreover, AG’s self-declared allegiance to orthodoxy is similarly dynamic–events may take place tomorrow which might result in his own hanging about the exits. Again, this was all a hypothetical in which AG is correct about KW’s standing in the Kingdom, and I know essentially nothing about either of these men. Hoever, I do know that giving a shove to those who are uncertain in their course is not a good policy. |
DKL, I was mainly focusing on the effect on the audience in the hypothetical situation that Buckley hadn’t resigned. I didn’t mean to draw an analogy between Greenwood and Buckley themselves – I don’t agree that a strong one exists but I’ll leave that line of thought alone. Kristin, I disagree that we are under the unreasonable expectation to convince ourselves that people are “on our side” when they clearly are not. Yes, in a very generic sense that is true – we all want everyone to be happy, to improve themselves, etc. But as you dig further and further into specific issues it’s undeniable that, on those issues, different sides are present. Consider two people that are Anti-SSM but one of which is a strong Federalist. When it comes to the topic of a Federal Marriage Amendment there will be a disagreement between the two, they will be on opposite sides of the issue. And that will reflect the expectations that each will have for the others viewpoints. This really has nothing to do with viewing someone as being in the same family or not. If you have a younger sister who is clueless when it comes to money, is always broke, always late on bills, then that is going to affect your interest level in her writings on personal finance. It doesn’t mean you don’t love her, just that you find her unreliable on the subject. And, as I mentioned in my previous post, it is possible for expectations to change based on new information. If your older brother has always been great with money and his career but suddenly he decides it would be a wonderful idea to quit his job and invest all his money in lottery tickets then your expectation of the reliability and usefulness of his financial perspective will be altered. You still love the guy, but your interest level in hearing what he has to say on finances is lowered. The same goes for blogs. We choose what blogs and authors to read based on what viewpoint we’re looking for and what viewpoint we expect to find. If our expectations prove false, then we alter our decision process and go from there. It’s not a big deal (but it is an interesting soap opera). |
“We choose what blogs and authors to read based on what viewpoint we’re looking for and what viewpoint we expect to find.” Speak for yourself. Some of us are actually capable of evaluating ideas as they come up, regardless of what “viewpoint” we were expecting. We even find it possible to learn from people we disagree with, and to treat that disagreement as evidence of, well, disagreement, rather than bad faith on either side. |
I think that all this bickering about who gets to use the label “orthodox” is a side-issue, if at all. My own distillation of the situation: - Adam’s view is that T&S permabloggers should be limited to those who consider themselves “believers.” - Adam’s further view is that Kaimi, by the posts which he has made to forum of disaffected Mormons, has shown himself to not be a believer, consciously and comfortably so. (Of course, then we get to defining a “believer.” It seems to me that any definition which encompasses a self-described “cafeteria Mormon” who confesses to doubting or disbelieving core components of the LDS “belief identity” is stretched so wide as to be functionally useless.) - The majority of T&S permabloggers disagreed with Adam on either the idea that Kaimi is a substantive believer, or the proposition that only believers should be permabloggers. Adam however decided that the inclusions of a crypto-nonbeliever among the permabloggers made T&S a forum in which he chose not to participate. I see Adam’s actions to be reasonable, taking into account the role and mission he envisioned for T&S. |
Hear hear, DKL! It seems to me that Kaimi is being accused of two offenses: (a) He made blatantly heterodox statements on T&S. These don’t exactly fit together. In any case, we shouldn’t require people to adopt labels indicating their level of “orthodoxy” (idiosyncratically defined) so we know whether to validate or dismiss their ideas. We shouldn’t demand that kind of shortcut. Faith is way too complex for a binary between orthodoxy and heterodoxy to be remotely useful–especially as applied to people–and ideas should be evaluated on their own merits. (Note to the unwary: I’m a rabid five-star heretic. Disregard this comment as you see fit.) |
Sigh. This is exhausting. I read Adam’s original post and a few comments after, then dropped it because it appeared to be just like J. Max’s departure(s): loud, self-righteous and all about him. The Bloggernacle isn’t orthodox enough? We’ve been through this before. Many times. And while I appreciate DKL’s post, which I fully agree with and endorse, I feel bad that he even felt the need and spent the time to compose it. I mean, let’s forget about this same old garbage and go to a baseball game or something. (DKL, next time you’re in NYC, let me know, we’ll hit a Mets game in their new stadium and enjoy a Shake Shack burger) |
Thank you, DKL. |
Rusty, AG and J.Max are not the same. J.Max writes about puppets. |
Scott B., Compare. http://www.millennialstar.org/2005/08/22/alternate-voices-why-i-am-abandoning-the-bloggernacle/ |
Marry me, DKL. Thanks for this post, I really appreciate both the support in general, and the specific analysis. I very much agree with the sentiment that we’re all cafeteria Mormons, and that that’s a good thing. Kristine, Thanks. :) Ardis, Amen. :) Kiskililith, You rock. :) Rusty, I only read the first few words of your comment, but they seemed nice enough. All, If you’re interested in reading more details about my heterodoxy, please check the guest post that Adam allowed me to submit at JG. No, I’m not really aloysius, that’s a joke that Adam inserted (I think) and which I don’t quite understand. Otherwise, the post is indeed me. |
Wouldn’t Adam be considered a cafeteria Mormon anyway? His views of abortion are not in line with what the church teaches. |
Tim J- I know their exits are very similar. But only J.Max writes about puppets. |
And all this drama is the reason kulturblog is the best part of the bloggernacle. |
No, the reason Kulturblog is so great is because it isn’t part of the Bloggernacle. |
Preach on, DKL! One of the things I enjoy most about the Bloggernacle is the way in which it reflects that eclectic spirit of Mormonism you describe. And I’d hate to see litmus tests of orthodoxy used to carefully label and classify its wide variety of participants. (Are you 60 percent believing Mormon? 70 percent? I’m sorry, but I only read the blogs of people who scored 80 percent or higher on my personal orthodoxy quiz.) All for the greater good of–I’m not quite sure. Protecting people from encountering ideas with which they disagree? Because once you know Kiskilili only scored 20 percent, you can comfortably ignore everything she has to say. As a blogger, I have to say that I’m also a bit unsettled by the tactic of collecting a bunch of comments made by someone to demonstrate their apostate character. It’s a tactic that could pretty much be used against anyone who’s made lots of comments. I can certainly imagine the orthodoxy police coming up with all kinds of incriminating evidence if they decided to hunt through everything I’ve ever said online in order to make a judgment on whether I am a “believing Mormon.” Because for me (and I imagine I’m not alone in this), blogging isn’t saying, “this is what I absolutely think”–it’s a way of playing with ideas and possibilities and speculations, and sometimes even just venting. I think Scott B. makes a great point about testimony not being static. I fear that the use of such tactics has the potential to put a damper on the lively discussion that makes the Bloggernacle so fun, as people are going to be more hesitant to comment if there is a chance that their comments could be used against them in such a way. Full disclosure: Kaimi has been a welcoming voice and a good friend since I came to the Bloggernacle, and his support was definitely a factor in ZD managing to get through our first turbulent months. (Which I realize some may see as only further evidence of his nefarious character. ;) ) |
Yes, if Kulturblog were part of the bloggernacle, I might have to rethink the way I spend my Wednesday nights. |
Kristin, “Speak for yourself. Some of us are actually capable of evaluating ideas as they come up, regardless of what “viewpoint†we were expecting. We even find it possible to learn from people we disagree with, and to treat that disagreement as evidence of, well, disagreement, rather than bad faith on either side.” There is an unfortunate bite to your comment, but I think that perhaps there is simply a difference in how we all spend our time on the Internet. I’m sure some people really do listen to both NPR and Rush Limbaugh with equal interest, or subscribe to and read both The Nation and the National Review. Some Mormons might give equal time to ex-mormon websites when deciding what they think about the latest General Conference, but day to day I’ll wager most people do plenty of viewpoint filtering. There is too much information out there, you have to decide what is signal and what is noise. Speaking for myself, as you requested, my reading selection habits vary. But often I’m looking to be quickly informed on a particular topic by someone with a similar perspective to me, so I keep tabs on what the best (or most entertaining) sources are, and when I take the time to read comment streams I’ll generally skip directly to the comments that I’m interested in. Given that my goal is to get quick answers (or entertainment) within limited time constraints rather than to constantly reevaluate my established viewpoints this approach works well for me, your mileage may vary. |
“I love to hear expressions of faith from all ranges of orthodoxy and devotion, just as long as it doesn’t insult other people’s devotion and beliefs in the process.” I can only speak for myself, but this is the exact reason I lament Mr. Greenwood’s departure. To me, it leaves the bloggernacle significantly less diverse. As a result, I’m a little surprised no one has picked up on the irony of Dan’s comment that Adam’s comments were like a car wreck. That is, you can’t both state that KW’s comments are welcome because they represent one of many “ranges of orthodoxy,” while maligning AG’s views as a “car wreck.” |
Great post, DKL!
Amen and amen. My hope for the Bloggernacle is for it to have more people like Kaimi, not fewer. Unfortunately, as yet, he appears to be unique. Lynnette (#39), good point about how lots of comments make a blogger vulnerable to having them held up later, whether in comparison to one another (as happens to politicians) or to an orthodox-o-meter, as seems to be happening here. I guess Brigham Young had the same problem–leading the Church for so long and giving so many talks and making so many statements that a bunch of looniness got loose in them, providing great fodder for anti-Mormons and Bruce R. McConkie’s “Seven Deadly Heresies.” I also really like the idea of annotating our comments with a percentage orthodox/heterodox. Like Raymond Takashi Swenson said on the T&S thread, though, it would probably require multiple dimensions. But setting that aside, perhaps commenters should append a percentage to their names. I’m Ziff, and I’m 22% orthodox. Kiskilili, your heretic status gives you a special 0% orthodox rating. It’s much coveted in ex-Mormon circles, but difficult to achieve. You can take the person out of Mormonism, but you can’t take the Mormonism out of the person. :) |
jimbob, |
One of my first experiences in the bloggernacle was an attack by jettboy on my own orthodoxy, a couple of years ago. I’m still here, and so is he, and I think he and I still don’t understand each other much, despite that we probably would agree on more than 50% of what we each consider “orthodox”. But that’s why I keep coming back, to try and understand this amazing theological and cultural stew that is the church, and its manifestation in the bloggernacle. As Elder Wirthlin said, we can’t all be piccolos, and I personally think I might most resemble a bassoon. DKL, I appreciate this post, and will only say that I hope that Kaimi, Adam, jettboy, and all the rest of us can celebrate the singular event of the Resurrection this Sunday, each of us in the best way we can. |
John C., There were 41 comments prior to mine tangentially related to AG’s departure. My comment seems to be one of the few here which laments AG leaving a big blog for a fairly obscure one. Any reason you chose my comment in particular to remind everyone how much a non-issue this is? |
“My hope for the Bloggernacle is for it to have more people like Kaimi, not fewer.” I’m hoping this is something other than a call for more warmed-over progressiveness badly applied to Mormonism. That isn’t to say I object to Kaimi’s heterodoxies–such as they are; I’m more bothered by their predictable nature. In much of his writing there is a whiff of the child who thrills at engaging in the allegedly verboten. None of which, of course, disqualifies one from being an upstanding member of the church, but it makes for boring reading. |
If you really think that DKL is calling for “more warmed-over progressiveness,” you must not know DKL. And if what you honestly and truly find bothersome about Kaimi is his predictable nature, I can only imagine how irksome you must find Adam. Godspeed, Mr. Greenwood. |
I know DKL. We’re even friends on Facebook–that’s how close we are. No, I don’t find A. Greenwood or his writing irksome. I view a lot of what he produces as literary curios–interesting bits and pieces coming from a foreign place that I can take out from time to time and wonder at. I would be more fussed if his worldview was in ascendancy–as it is, I think of him as an anachronistic dreamer when I’m in a good mood and an inveterate crank when I’m feeling less charitable Occassionally I also agree w/ him. I also don’t get worked up when ninety-three-year-old men threaten to take me behind the woodshed. To be clear, I don’t find Kaimi the person bothersome at all. On the few occassions we have met I have liked him. I think he does a pretty good job when he writes about the law. For me, his writing on things connected to Mormonism leave something to be desired-for reasons already stated. |
jimbob, |
Kaimi rocks. That is all. |
I gotta agree with Rusty. All I see here is that AG took his toys and went home in a self-righteous huff. [yawn] |
John, I read your post this morning, and I find your “public irritation” somewhat irritating myself. Your method escapes me: you’re essentially drawing attention to the issue by making a post about how people should stop paying attention to the issue. And your explanation for why we should stop paying attention to it is that there are other Mormon issues we could be paying attention to instead, as though the bloggernacle had never engaged in navel-gazing at the expense of weightier matters before. Which would be weird, since there’s an awful lot of navel-gazing that goes on here. (In fact, I just found one of my favorite navel-gazing posts here: http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/14/i-know-condemnation-sir-and-you-are-no-condemner/. Perhaps nothing important was going on in Mormondom that week.) And then you turn the comments off, which is your prerogative, of course, but it’s not the sort of thing that you’d expect to see at BCC. It doesn’t exactly exude confidence. |
Some observers’ views of the participants here are short; some, long; while each person’s view of t)hi/rself is even longer. And then believers hold one entities’ view to be longer even yet. |
All of the sudden I am content to have my obscure solo blog on a niche topic that hardly anyone cares about. Nice post DKL. |
This is one of the best posts you’ve written, DKL–and that’s not an underhanded compliment. You’ve written some fine things. I got to have my testimony evaluated at T&S long ago when I was a permablogger there. It was judged as inadequate by Mr. Greenwood and one of his friends. I was utterly appalled that such a thing would happen anywhere in America, let alone among a community of people who either are Mormon or are interested in Mormonism. Interestingly, it was Kaimi who persuaded me to not leave that blog immediately. He cared enough about it that he didn’t want to see that ugly little episode damage what he considered a really good effort to converse intelligently about important issues and ideas. And it WAS a good blog. It had its golden days. I rarely look at it anymore. Such a sad turn of events. |
Jimbob (42), I think my “car wreck” comment came across as more harsh than I intended. I think AG is probably a decent guy; I have gone to Church with quite a few guys like him, and I do just fine with them. That said, AG’s writings on T&S were often so bizarre to me that I usually followed his posts to get a glimpse into a mindset so drastically different (not worse, just different) from mine. |
“FWIW, I have made public my irritation with this whole thing.” Repeatedly screaming SHUT UP like a 8th grade schoolgirl is not exactly a contribution to the public exploration of the topic. So stop braggin’. |
McQ, |
“I rarely look at it anymore. Such a sad turn of events.” Amen. If this had happened at a blog I cared about, I would get worked up about it. But since it’s T&S I can’t muster up enough energy to even yawn. I do feel bad for Kaimi, but he appears to be handling it with grace. |
jimbob, And yes, that was a remarkably slow week. Certainly not immediately preceded by a powerful General Conference the spirit of which was not immediately lost by petty blog infighting. |
finally, i have a few minutes, after all the discussion has taken place. But I have to make the public appearance out of respect for Kaimi and also to let it be known, so on an so forth…here’s my .03 It seems that many on this blog are forgetting that Kaimi is an actual person that has feelings and hardships just like they do. And it’s not polite to speak of him like he’s an “it”. It is also important to remember that Kaimi was, at the time he started with Times and Seasons, a “faithful” LDS-He fit the role that he signed up for. As time as passed and he gained new information/knowledge, his views changed. This is normal for most people. At least if you are doing life right, you change as you age. His continued presence at T&S is only normal given that he hasn’t made up his mind one way or the other in regards to what he believes or doesn’t believe. He’s working out his faith and one of the ways he chose to do that is to participate in ‘other’ blogs using a different name. I see it as a way for him to try on his new ideas and see if they fit him and his family. Some find that objectionable, I think it’s brave. (but i understand the motivations) I know that many feel betrayed by his duplicity and that he didn’t just leave T&S when he started publicly questioning. Hey! it’s not so easy for K(most people)to make a permanent decision and leave a community and home when he’s not even sure of what he wants. (Imagine this for yourself-pick one, just one of your shortcomings). We all have doubts and issues to work through. Some of us keep them private and others not so private. K, took a different route. One that you may not approve of but he didn’t betray anyone, he was trying to work out some serious,personal issues in a way that suited him. What i don’t understand is that as a group of LDS, how quickly we are to look past Kaimi’s history of goodness and kindness and fixate on his perceived lack of faith. God knows, I’ve said and done many things that could incriminate me as apostate and I would be mortified if someone published it for the world to see. I’m sure the same is true for many of us. AND what AG did is to do what he did is inexcusable!!! Is that the new standard of LDS blogging. Find someone you think is unrighteous and tell the world how and why? |
two things. 1.that is the longest comment i have ever made in the history of mel 2. i apologize for the typos/poor editing in the second to last paragraph/sentence. (all others i’m not ashamed of ‘cos i can’t find them) |
I think the “you have a weak testimony” line is essentially the last refuge of the guy who is upset to find that others don’t automatically agree with his assumptions… and that he sucks at debating. It’s the girl who didn’t like how the argument turned out, so now she wants to make it stop. |
If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither are on your side, pound the table. That’s really all the questioning of testimonies tactic amounts to – pounding the table. |
(Pounds on table.) :P Okay, so — re 62-63: I heart Mel. Seriously, Mel is sweet and sincere and goes out of her way to talk to people and build community. Mel rocks. re 56: I heart Margaret. T&S was a better blog when she was posting with us. (Ditto for Kristine, and Melissa, and Ardis, and inactive Ros, and . . . but I digress). re 51: I heart ECS. But then, most of us do. re 49: I heart Mat– hey, huh? “Thrills of the allegedly verboten?” Dude, I think you have me mixed up with Aaron Brown. I’m the one who does dry and boring analysis. (Have you *read* my post on racism and homosexuality that got Adam riled up?) Aaron’s the one who pulls little girls’ pigtails to make them squeal. Also, he’s taller than me, and he’s a polygamist. Don’t mix us up, man. I expect more from a fellow founding blogger of BCC. re 45: Amen, Kevin. An orchestra of all piccolos would suck. re 43: I heart Ziff. And Lynnette. A lot. The ZD family rocks, and ZDs has been one of my favorite blogs, from the start. I love the idea of orthodoxy numbers next to everyone’s names. :) And you’re right, Lynnette, that our paper trails are kind of scary, when you think about it, especially since blogging is sometimes exploration, conversation, or venting, rather than static or permanent statements of concrete belief. I ought to reply to more people, but I’m tired and this comment is a novel as is. Thanks for the kind words, people. |
This isn’t over? For the sake of playing devil’s advocate, Adam has feelings too, ya know… |
cheap shot, nsm. if you’d like to take another, email me personally. |
Once Adam resigned from T&S, I knew it was only a matter of time before the conversation turned to my pig-tail fetish. Sigh. But seriously, it’s good to see that my decrease in activity in the Bloggernacle hasn’t prevented my name from popping up in random places. No such thing as bad press, I suppose. While I have the floor, let me randomly say that in the all the years I’ve been reading Adam Greenwood’s stuff (dating back to the LDS-Law list in the pre-Bloggernacle, cretaceous period), I’ve never found him as irritating as others have. Granted, this is partly due the fact that I don’t read him much, and partly because I retain enough conservatism in my politics (usually not displayed online) that I can find at least some common ground with Adam some of the time. But yes, this “awkward and boisterous” departure was a bit much to take. I reflect back on J. Max Wilson’s pompous and juvenile departing post of a few years ago, and remember how irritated it made me. Others are reacting similarly now, but honestly, all I can muster is a yawn. The simple fact, as others have said, is that we are all “cafeteria mormons” in some form or another. Some of us are self-aware, and others are in denial. That’s the real dividing line in our community. And as the years go by, the Church internationalizes, the political and cultural preoccupations of the day recede, and the very meaning of Mormon orthodoxy subtley changes, the diversity of belief we find in the Church will only grow larger and more varied. And some will find this infuriating. And they’ll wish that Jesus will come back and clean house. Or hope and pray that the Prophet will set everyone straight with the very discourse they’ve got running in their head. And they’ll tell themselves and their friends that they and their like-minded comrades possess the “true” Gospel understanding, unlike the poor heathens they worship with at church. And they’ll wait for this to finally be explained in its fullness in General Conference by a straight-talking G.A. And they’ll wait. And wait. And wait. Maybe they’ll hold their breaths. But eventually … their heads will explode. BANG!!!! It just ain’t gonna happen. Sniff. AB |
the diversity of belief we find in the Church will only grow larger and more varied. Preach on, brother. In my current ward there are members from Afghanistan, Nigeria, Ghana, Costa Rica, Argentina, Mongolia, the Philippines, Australia, the UK, Austria, Romania, Utah and others. I can positively guarantee that for better or worse, our beliefs do not overlap 100%. |
# 68, All in good humor, I hope. If not, apologies. |
A couple months back at another website, a writer was advocating more broad use of the word “miracle,” to include all types of valuable spiritual experience. I and Aaron Brown both disagreed with this language modification with the two comments below, first mine, then his:
I feel similarly about the notion that “we’re all cafeteria Mormons.” If you want “cafeteria Mormon” to convey the idea that each of us has his own set of stumbling blocks, weaknesses, things he emphasizes, and things he sidesteps, then that flattens through language elimination the ability to convey that some accept the Church pretty much whole hog as described in the Ensign, and some have major problems with major components of the Church. |
John, I would agree with you if we ever used the term cafeteria Mormon carefully and descriptively. But we don’t, it is used only as an epithet. For instance, within the past two weeks, you yourself have publicly taken issue with Pres. Packer’s vision of a limited church activity program. If somebody wanted to defame you, that would be a place to start. B.H. Roberts questioned the historicity of the Book of Mormon. By AG’s standards, that makes BHR a cafeteria Mormon with whom faithful members should not have communion. It is a stupid and useless categorization that is used as a club to enforce somebody’s stupid and useless vision of orthodoxy. |
What was the blog Times and Seasons used to be? Stuck up, pedantic, exclusive and rude to visitors? The things you attribute to Adam epitomize that blog to me, although I think you’re being too hard on Adam. I must have missed the fanaticism in his posts. If Kaimi has decided to be honest and that pissed Adam off, fine. But lets not say that Times and Seasons was ever open, welcoming, and inclusive. They’ve made a point of their elite and intellectual status and if they deign to speak to their posters, it’s like the Gods descending to pat one on the head. If Times and Seasons is going to be like it used to be, Adam should stay and Kaimi should come over to Mormon Mentality. I guess I shouldn’t be shooting my mouth off about this because I don’t even know what caused the fight. But I think Adam gets a bad rap. I love the both of them and I don’t feel inclined to take sides. But the idea that because Adam left, now Times and Seasons can recover their former glory is bullshit. |
If the essence of cafeteria mormonism is picking and choosing, and we all pick and choose, then we are all cafeteria mormons. If the essence of cafeteria mormonism is they pick and choose stuff I would neither pick nor choose, then we have a difference of opinion regarding what constitutes mormonism. If the essence of cafeteria mormonism is they choose apostasy and I choose mormonism, then I don’t see the usefulness of the term at all. |
Mark, I take “cafeteria Mormon” to mean that a person selects aspects of the Mormon religion and rejects others according to personal taste and pleasure, implying that what a person believes and does is so for trivial, self-serving reasons. It’s an insult, and not a useful term unless insult is the aim. Oddly, though, I mostly notice it being used by those who embrace it as applying to themselves, and then insisting that everyone is just like them. |
I suppose what I dislike most about the Bloggernacle is that people like Adam Greenwood are taken to represent LDS orthodoxy — I bristle at hearing this the same way that I bristle when people say that Pat Buchanan represents conservative orthodoxy. Hear, hear. Adam is generally way to the right of what is considered orthodox LDS doctrine. Although I guess you could consider him an orthodox Mormon. |
am i too late? has someone else already bemoaned this nastly little sample of Mormon Mccarthyism? I was going to say something like how Adam’s public outing of kiami is LDS xenophobia at it’s worst, but since no blood was shed it really doesn’t live up to “worst”. how ’bout “most pathetic” yeah… this is LDS xenophobia at it’s most pathetic. |
This process could be made much more efficient if the powers that be opened a designated thread where those who have a grievance with A. Greenwood could go to vent their spleen. Hyperbolic (and, I might add, charmingly self-unaware if ignorant) comments comparing Greenwood to McCarthy notwithstanding, I’m not sure we are gong to generate the critical mass of outrage necessary here to form a really effective mob. |
John M, |
DKL – thanks for this. I appreciate your perspective and I must admit, this is one of my favorite posts I have read in a long time! |
Not quite, John C., what I am asserting is that “cafeteria Catholic” and its derivative “cafeteria Mormon” sound like terms that were coined for the purpose of disparaging the religious life of others. Part of that disparagement would be, as you say, the idea that the diparaged are unwilling to sacrifice and subordinate themselves. Yet the uses of “cafeteria Mormon” that I encounter are mostly by people who for some reason or other are applying it to themselves. I suppose they’ve turned what they perceived as an insult directed at them into a badge of honor with positive connotations that they’re picking out the best and ignoring the rest. |
How about a new term, “Fast Food Mormons”, who dash in and out of their church meetings on schedule, getting each time exactly the same thing without being challenged about having to make a menu decision, consuming it in gulping bites, and then dashing on with the rest of their lives, until they need another load of empty calories? My only fear is that it often might apply to me. (Sorry if I offend anyone. Like I say, it is a problem I struggle with myself.) |
Some things that happen in the Bloggernacle make me feel so tired. Adam Greenwood leaving T&S isn’t one of them. |
ahh… more hyperbolic [self-unaware, ignorant] threadjacking. (or not). my folks think mccarthy was a hero and a true patriot. They would claim the label “mccarthyism” as a badge of honor. aren’t labels funny? me? I do vegan fast food at the mormon cafeteria and am a commie pinko liberal too. banish me! (or spank me. whichever your pleasure) |
I’m up 5% on the orthodoxy scale from my last comment (#55)! This episode has given me some new ideas to chew on. If we are all cafeteria Mormons, what is the specific item (or items) that we all must choose from the buffet? Previous comments have eluded to TR questions as a common item. That seems like a reasonable place to start. We disagree on many things, but in what ways do all (or most) agree? Anyone aware of posts that address this topic? |
John M, |
G? all these years and i’ve never known you to be be so…naughty. i like it. |
“You must spank her well, and after you are done with her, you may deal with her as you like … and then … spank me.” |
Please don’t continue with that scene, Kaimi. Dangerous territory. |
There’s a reason I stopped where I did. B-) |
From the ridiculous to the sublime. Monty Python to the rescue. |
#34 Kaimi ~ Thanks for this post, I really appreciate both the support in general, and the specific analysis. I very much agree with the sentiment that we’re all cafeteria Mormons, and that that’s a good thing. I’m pretty sure I’m not a cafeteria Mormon. But, I will continue to read T&S with great interest even if you have some unconventional views, Kaimi. This whole Adam-Greenwood-leaves-T&S saga has amused the drama llama greatly. Oh, and it took less than 24 hours of me commenting at Jr. Ganymede for Adam Greenwood to tell me to shut up and then quietly delete one of my comments. The ironic part? It was a comment telling him to learn to deal with opposing viewpoints graciously. I guess he’s still working on that. /snicker |
My hope for the bloggernacle is that more people will vocally resign from their blogs while in dispute with another person so that everyone else in the bloggernacle will have the opportunity to express their opinions on the relative merits of the individuals involved in said conflict and get to publicly express their support for one or the other of the individuals in question. |
Bridget Jack Meyers, if you’re not a cafeteria Mormon, then which conception of the God Head do you believe in? I outlined several in my post. They’re all mutually exclusive, and remnants of each remain within our church. Even if you choose to be agnostic about it (which, btw, was the official position immediately prior to the Talmage-era position that currently prevails) you’re picking and choosing what you believe. I refer to this directly in my post, and it utterly astonishes me to see people insist that they’re not cafeteria Mormons without ever confronting the fact that there are so many contradictions in church teachings that one must necessarilly choose some and not others — even on a doctrine as key as God. It doesn’t make you stupid just because you don’t understand the huge variation in teachings over the years, but when you purposefully ignore it in order to mischaracterize your beliefs, it leaves others to wonder. I apologize to everyone else here for not being more active in this thread. I’ve been travelling for Easter. I’ll just add that I remain astonished at how much energy some people expend trying to convince others of their total disinterest. I suppose if it makes them feel superior or more cool or more detached to throw themselves into a controversy that way, then I shouldn’t begrudge them that small amount of satsfaction. Even so… |
Umm… DKL, I’m pretty sure that Bridget isn’t a cafeteria Mormon because she isn’t a Mormon. … Just sit down, I’m embarrassed for both of us. |
Perhaps you’ll have to excuse me for being more difficult to embarrass than some. Her comment implied that she’s a Mormon, and my response is as applicable to her as it is to any number of other comments. |
DKL, It’s a quote–google it. |
Sorry DKL. Quite a few people on the Bloggernacle are becoming familiar with me as a token evangelical, never-Mo’ commentator (Kaimi included) and I guess I took it for granted that everyone would know that. FWIW, I agree with the argument that everyone can be considered a cafeteria Mormon in one way or another. It’s a little frustrating to me sometimes that the things one active Mormon describes to me as orthodox and necessary and essential can be easily brushed off by another active Mormon, but I’m learning that’s just the nature of the beast. In fact, come to think about it, I probably am a “cafeteria evangelical.” I’m more Pentecostal than anything else and as such believe in miraculous spiritual gifts and a very free-style, energetic emphasis on worship, but I don’t speak in tongues myself (my eternal Pentecostal shame) and I’ve imported soul competency from the Baptist tradition, a version of Arminianism that probably puts almost as much emphasis on free will and covenants as Mormonism does, and deification from the Eastern Orthodox tradition which I merge with sanctification. I feel a little envious of the level of ritual available in high church traditions, but alas, I just can’t have everything. And you know what? I don’t really feel any shame in picking and choosing truth where I see it. |
Eric gets my vote for best comment… |
I actually prefer yours, annegb. DKL, take it easy on Jack. She’s one of our favorite no-mos in the nacle. She’s kinda like a pet. |
mcq: I think Jack is slowly drinking the Mormon Kool-Aid. |
drinking the Mormon Kool-Aid i know that phrase sounds funny but the events at Jamestown weren’t–that jim jones was a bad dude. ( yeah, i can get a little touchy about some things too) |
#101 MCQ ~ DKL, take it easy on Jack. She’s one of our favorite no-mos in the nacle. She’s kinda like a pet I prefer to think of myself as the Bloggernacle’s nappy-headed ho. #102 Bookslinger ~ I think Jack is slowly drinking the Mormon Kool-Aid. Incorrect. What I have in fact been drinking is the Mormon Coca-Cola. I just realized that thanks to #95, I can now scratch “pick a fight with DKL” off of my Bloggernacle scavenger hunt checklist. Wow, that really was easy. |
Nate W, I just Googled Just sit down, I’m embarrassed for both of us. Not seeing it as a famous quote… Maybe you accidentally quoted yourself and you forgot you aren’t famous or something? |
Next time, google with quotation marks to keep the words together: It’s famous if the Simpsons qualify. Amy Tan and Lisa. |
106. I once saw a one-man performance of Macbeth done entirely in the voices of various Simpsons characters. It was brilliant. |
Jack, I don’t think you can cross it off your list so soon. I’m a big fan of DKL’s fights and this exchange doesn’t qualify. Keep trying though, I could use the distraction. |
mfranti, sorry for the memory jolt. “drinking the Kool-Aid” has entered into the popular lexicon, and thankfully with a slightly different than Jonestown meaning. It kind of means joining the club, or subscribing to the beliefs of the group. I recently read it, I think in one of Margaret Young’s comments, that Helen Whitney was accused of “drinking the Mormon Kool-Aid” because her PBS piece “The Mormons” wasn’t controversial or negative enough. In the same sense Patty Hearst “drank the SLA Kool-Aid” when she threw in with them during her kidnapping ordeal. (Not that I put any blame on her for doing so.) Jack, In these parts, it’s Diet Coke. In Utah, I hear it’s Diet Pepsi. In your neck of the woods, is it really full-leaded (ie, w/sugar) Coke? |
Dunno, Bookslinger. Right now the drink I have at my side is RC Cola, though I don’t think it’s Mormon RC Cola. I’m visiting my father and it’s all he’s got. I had a professor at BYU who really loved Lime Diet Coke. You could seriously suck up to him if you dropped off a Lime Diet Coke at his office, and I am not above that level of sucking up. Last night BrianJ and I visited an evangelical mega-church in Seattle that had a coffee shop in it, with tables and booths and a screen showing the service. So you could sit at a booth and drink coffee or tea while you watched the service. It was a little weird, even for me. |
I love the terms that use imagery from Jim Jone’s People’s Temple. It’s an important reminder of how dangerous left-wing fanatics are. |
And so it begins. :) |
I tried lime diet coke. It took me (mentally) back to my days of drinking Cuba Libres (rum and Coke with a twist of lime). Not wanting to revisit that mind-set, I had to scratch that flavor off the list. Cherry Diet Coke, now that’s good. Especially if you can find it in 2-liter bottles. I visited my Mom’s Methodist church with her last year. They had coffee brewing in the Sunday School classroom. That was an interesting juxtaposition. Fortunately, it wasn’t real good coffee. Being someplace that brews really good-smelling coffee can drive me nuts. |
“In Utah, I hear it’s Diet Pepsi.” Clearly, you know nothing about Utah. If Diet Coke came in IVs, it would be selling out at the mini-marts. |
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