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But you assume it is in the self-interest of the teacher to have a larger class. And maybe the pride of having the largest class is of itself remunerative. But if you really want to make this work, there should be some incentive to having more students, whether in cash or in kind. Maybe the right to leave Priesthood or Relief Society five minutes earlier for every five students? Or brownies? |
My experience is that people will choose the teacher they like best regardless of where you ask them to attend. It’s like the huge market-based system in China: the government still maintains the fiction that it’s directing/centralizing the economy, but the reality is that there’s a lot of free-market capitalism happening. |
Better yet, allow people to switch to the ward with the better scouting program, more forgiving bishop, more interesting sacrament meeting, etc… |
“Teaching may not be their comparative advantage, and there’s always room for more supervisors in the nursery.” People called to the nursery ARE teachers. Nursery teachers are very important and there is no less need for good nursery teachers than good adult teachers. |
Sam B.: Leaving Priesthood/RS five minutes early for every five students? Brilliant! Jota G. Great point. A failing ward is kind of like a failing public school. Those who oppose allowing families to go to better wards are the same people who are already in great wards themselves. jks: As a parent of young children, I am eternally grateful to nursery teachers, especially after a long sacrament meeting. But the teaching required in nursery is different than the teaching required for gospel doctrine. The market can help find who is better suited for which type. |
I am generally a very free market proponent, but can you imagine the mayhem that would be unleashed if people were really allowed to choose their ward (other than by changing the location of their residences)? I wonder if you would have less inactivity or more. |
I think that’s the celestial law. As long as you keep your values strait, and are clear about them, free choice and interchange between people is the best way. Of course, the terrestrial model is that of David’s Kingdom. So let the bishop be a judge and judge the hearts of his people, which model suits them best. It could be that two very different classes will develop, based on the teachers’ styles, with neither better than the other, but both better for the people who gravitate towards them. Wonderful, isn’t it? Capitalism let’s people be free, and rewards value for value. It’s a high and practical ideal, but that doesn’t mean a market always fits people. |
In our ward they came up with having 2 classes and 3+ teachers that rotate classrooms. You never know who will be teaching where! So I go to the soft seats and can’t figure out why there is anyone in the hard chaired culteral hall. But the classes are about equal. |
I would have welcomed such “competition” as a Gospel Doctrine teacher! :) I’m thinking if this two-class plan went forward, you’d probably end up with one more specialized class (lots of FARMS material and existential discussions) and another class that just follows the basic manual (lots of “Sunday school answers”). My other concern would be continuity. If you’re attending one class and then another, you’re probably missing out on continuing discussions from one week to another. I’m sure some teachers’ pride would also take a hit if one class/teacher is preferred over another but it would be a risk I would be willing to take. Sometimes it can be difficult to get a good discussion going because there are so many people in our GD class and at other times I think we have trouble getting through the entire less because so many people want to offer their insights. Perhaps your Bishopric should just be happy so many people actually attend GD and aren’t hiding in the bathrooms during the second hour! |
Singles wards, where there is no youth SS or Primary to support, already have to do this, right? |
If you want to put the newlyweds in one class and the nearly deads in another, that’s fine. But beyond that, don’t put them in competition. Couldn’t you do a family relations class (6-week cycle) as the other class with 4-5 families and then cycle through the ward? |
Moses was not a great speaker, yet God called him to be His prophet. Joseph Smith was not an educated man, yet God called him to shepherd the Restoration. Sometimes a calling not about our strengths but what we can become. |
allow people to switch to the ward with the better scouting program, more forgiving bishop, more interesting sacrament meeting, etc… Doesn’t anybody ever switch wards because of the better organist? |
Probably not… But I’d bet someone’s switched wards so they don’t have to be the organist! :) |
Mark, I included organist in “etc.” I might switch wards for a chorister who conducts at tempo. |
lurker (8): The soft seats. That’s an important variable that needs to be factored into the analysis. Thanks for pointing it out. Paroled (9): Are there really people hiding out in the bathrooms to avoid GD? PDOE (12): Being a great speaker may not be the most important thing about being a prophet. In any case, whether he was the best man for the job begs the question, doesn’t it? Had a market system been adopted, we may have seen that Aaron was actually the better prophet. Also, with Joseph Smith, it’s not clear that being educated is necessary to shepherd the Restoration. Again, a market system could have provided an answer to that question for us. Try restoring the Church both through an educated guy and also through an uneducated guy. Then we see which church ends up doing the best. |
If we give capitalism another chance and it has a resurgence, do you think I’ll get a new iPod? |
I’ve been known to “hide” during classes though I don’t think I ever hid in the bathroom (well, not past the age of 8). I have hidden out in the library and the nursery! People kind of assume you’re “helping” out in some way and tend to leave you alone. My husband prefers hiding in the car with his eyes closed. |
I think this is a great idea. One problem, though, is that people who are really great teachers are also great leaders and they’re busy doing other things. I wish we’d see that being president isn’t nearly as important or life-affecting as being teacher. I know people who will “serve the Lord and the kingdom” for ten years as Relief Society president, but only be a cub scout leader for one year, flat. |
Seth, EVERYONE will get new iPods. It will be like being on Oprah. |
Uchdorf couldn’t be prophet, because he’s not from the bloodline. Of course, the real advantage of an two gospel doctrine classes is that you wouldn’t have to attend Sunday School, because you can always tell people, “I went to the other class.” It would also save the Gospel Doctrine teachers from having to line up a substitute teacher when they can’t attend. The problem with multiplying everyone’s calling is this: Most people only come to church because their calling demands it. Somebody’s got to teach that primary/sunday school/relief society/priesthood lesson — and it’s all riding on you. Once you make it so that everything will run perfectly in their absence, they’ll never get out of bed. |
Law of Consecration is the answer. Consecrate your properties for the poor and building the kingdom. Cooperativism instead of competition. Unity of faith and purpose. |
That’s why I roll my eyes whenever I see “B Tippets” on the Latest Comments list. |
Keep roling those eyes. Assimiliation takes a long time. |
I was in a ward where there were two adult Sunday school classes. One was much more popular than the other–filled to capacity every Sunday. The less popular class was held in a small room with less than half the attendance of the other. Which class was better? Let me give you a clue: The small one was taught by Bill Hamblin. |
A few thoughts… My parents ward has had two GD classes for years. The small one always has more discussion, the larger one is more of a lecture. I can tell you that I’d rather teach and attend the small one. As for applying the same logic to wards, that is what most other religions do. You can attend anywhere you want to. As a non-LDS friend what they think of strictly enforced boundaries. They’ll think it is insane. Yet I’m not sure how it would work out if we tried it. People would have to make some sort of long term commitment to a ward in order for there to be enough stability for callings to work. Of course we already have limited options of a sort. In our stake you have the option of going to your geographic ward, a singles ward, or the Spanish Branch. |
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arj, why is the boring one the one with the most attendance, then? |
Letting members choose their wards is a great idea. It would force out hard line leaders that are more like military commanders than spiritual leaders. If choice would be damaging to the church what does that say about our church? Nothing good. What you would want to avoid though is people moving often to avoid responsibility or cherry picking a Bishop for more welfare. For classes I would advocate for more options than just another GD class. There is parenting, Gospel essentials, Teacher training, Family history, etc. |
“Consecrate your properties for the poor and building the kingdom.” Actually, we already have done that in the temple. But that’s not what this thread is about. We have had two gospel doctrine classes for a long time. Each class is team taught by two teachers who take turns, teaching every other week. One of the classes is in the RS room on the soft chairs, but that doesn’t seem to make the difference in attendance. The biggest difference is on the weeks that the most popular teachers are teaching. On those weeks there is a very noticable increase in attendance in that class. I don’t see this as a bad thing, although it does make you wonder where people go on the days when the other teachers are there. Maybe they’re hiding in the bathroom, but it seems more likely that they’re at 7-11 getting a diet coke or checking sports scores at home. |
annegb, why is the boring one the one with the most attendance, then? Well, two reasons come to mind. One is that boring is in the eye of the beholder. Second is that a large percentage of the members in any ward are petrified of participation. You might not believe this, but ask any executive secretary who has had to try to arrange for people to give the prayers in Sacrament Meeting. About half of our ward flat out refuses, many others do so only reluctantly. So a class in which there is social pressure to speak in public would cause considerable discomfort to many members. Ok, I have a third reason: people are lazy. |
arJ, I would agree with all that, except the problem we have in GD is getting people to shut up long enough to let the lesson get taught. |
Obviously some people talking too much could be distracting, and a good teacher will know how to move the lesson forward with distractions. However, it’s important to remember that teachers (in Church) are supposed to teach students (or fellow saints) not lessons. There is nothing wrong with not “getting through” a lesson. Especially because people are supposed to have read the lesson materials (scriptures, Teachings of the Prophet…) ahead of time. |
Letting members choose their wards is a great idea. It would force out hard line leaders that are more like military commanders than spiritual leaders. If choice would be damaging to the church what does that say about our church? Nothing good. What you would want to avoid though is people moving often to avoid responsibility or cherry picking a Bishop for more welfare. Letting members choose their wards is a terrible idea (aside from the idea of letting them just change addresses, which is up to them). You would have members flocking to whatever bishop “suits” their needs, not putting roots down, etc. Part of being a bishop is giving hard counsel to people who need to receive hard counsel. If you let members pick their own wards, you’re letting the membership run the Church and choose its direction. It’s anathema to everything we teach and understand about revelation and leadership. Yes, some bishops are better than others, like gospel doctrine teachers are better than others. There are opportunities for members to choose their own path. But the concept of a geographically-assigned congregation is one of the most inspired things the Church does, in my opinion. |
I kind of like the idea of the Law of Consecration being the answer to every question. It makes life so much simpler. Q: Who won the baseball game last night? A: The Law of Consecration. Q: Who should we call as bishop of this ward? A. The Law of Consecration. Q. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? A. The Law of Consecration. JillEE (33): But what do you teach students, if not a lesson? |
Tagore, So it came as a shock to my Primary class (11-year-old boys) the other Sunday when I told them that, for purposes of that particular lesson, “Jesus” would always be the rong answer to any question I would ask. That said, I do like “The Law of Consecration” as a catch-all answer. Especially in response to your question to JillEE. |
Why not apply outright democracy to the situation? Provide a list of all callings available throughout the stake, as well as a directory of stake membership. let people rank the callings they would like to hold, as well as the members they would like to associate with. Run a computer regression to maximize satisfaction, then re-organize the stake along those lines. Allow freedom of movement between wards, and accept applications from those who would like to change callings. Everyone is happy now, right? (ironic emoticon) |
So what happens if the person most fit to receive revelation for the stake wants to be a scoutmaster? |
Doctrines and Principles
Even the front of the Gospel Doctrine teaching manual points out this basic truth:
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Sorry for the threadjack…. |
Matthew Chapman (37): I think you’re onto something big. Though it’s not necessarily about happiness; it’s about efficiency. JillEE (39): Wrong! The correct answer is the Law of Consecration. |
Matthew Chapman #37 – I’m assuming your suggestion is tongue-in-cheek but I think there are a lot of people out there who would adore your idea. My complaint is we would probably end up with terrible leadership. The only people I’ve known who are (in my opinion) 100% wrong for the main leadership positions in a ward are those who think those positions grant them special rights and esteem above all others in the ward. During my time in Primary under such a President, I learned verty quickly that a leader who thinks his/her position signifies his/her greater importance over others is really going to be a terrible leader without either (1) a swift kick in the pants or (2) a very humbling experience. And I don’t know that people would actually be any happier… I’ve found a great deal of satisfaction in church “jobs” I would never have chosen for myself. Besides, when do we then get to “fire” those who really wanted the jobs but are lousy at them? |
My ward has 3 Gospel Doctrine classes, and two Gospel Essentials courses. Steve Evans and I teach one of the GD classes. So we’ve got some experience with this. The bottom line: Classmembers seem to be more attached to certain classrooms than to certain teachers. Some prefer cushioned chairs to hard chairs, which may mean more than specific classrooms in some cases. AB |
AB: I hope you and Steve teach the Law of Consecration. (BTW, Do you ever use material from the ol’ Journal of International and Area Studies?) |
MCQ, You’re concerned about people making long comments? That sounds nice. The problems that I’ve encountered while teaching that I try to avoid are having a class member launch into a profanity laced tirade against another class member, and having a class member attack me while teaching. Long winded commenters are pretty low on me list. |
PftPP #42, I think that President Monson mentioned recently that the leadership of the Church is well aware that there are a large number of members that are qualified to be mission presidents because they get a large number of letters from such members detailing their qualifications. Those people are then never called. I’m inclined to write such a letter about how I should be called to any number of local positions, including my current one… |
Tagore, I don’t get your question re: JIAS. Perhaps you’re just drawing attention to my past affiliation with the journal? Did you work on JIAS back when I was one of the editors? Do I know you? What’s your real name? AB |
Aaron, yes, I was just drawing attention to your affiliation with JIAS. I was a fellow editor with you when Ryan was ed-in-chief. My real name is Ben (but don’t tell anyone; it’s a secret). |
Ben? Ben-who-wanted-to-be-a-environmental-lawyer-Ben? Or am I confusing you with someone else? AB |
Hah! I think we should privatize ward welfare. You know, instead of using the Bishop’s Storehouse we could hire an outside provider. Maybe hire real accountants to deal with tithing money instead of letting random people called by “revelation” do it. That way the real talent will get used and all that hooey about the spirit guiding people, or callings being issued as challenges from the Lord to inspire self-improvement, will no longer muck up what could otherwise be a well-run business operation. After all, it’s not like we’re trying to save souls or anything… |
AB: Aw, man. Was I that forgettable? I was planning on law school, but not environmental law. If I remember correctly, the editors were Ryan, George, Melissa, Suzanne, you, and me. I was known for having the best intellect of the group. And the best looks. Or was that you? Andrew: Now you’re talking! |
Except that Tagore’s real name is only Ben some of the time. Today it’s my name. At Mormon Mentality, we live the law of consecration. |