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Interesting post, Dan. It might have the potential to draw comments like students on welfare, so I’ll just make a quick observation. This part of the first paragraph: disappointment over her husband’s inability to meet her expectations. isn’t exactly news, is it? My guess is that that has been happening ever since Mrs. Thor asked the mister when he was going to shape up and do something around the cave. |
The question is “Why do women like Clay Aiken so much?” Present tense because they still adore him in droves, some even more so since finding out that he is gay. |
That was some very interesting reading … |
Nice connection to Twilight. Makes sense. |
Very interesting thoughts. One quibble, just my personal hobby horse really. I dislike the framing of the question as “the age-old question of what women want,” because it seems to me there is a whole lotta sexism packed into that. Half of humanity knows what women want (they are women), so calling what women want a concern of all of humankind, some kind of universal cosmic question, implicitly says that women are not part of humankind. Ok, end hobby horse. Very interesting article clips and I think you’re dead-on with your Twilight analysis. Please educate all those men in my Twilight thread who were persistently not getting it. (“but there’s no nudity! how can it be arousing???” LOL) |
sister blah 2: “Half of humanity knows what women want (they are women)” If you’re going to quibble… How do women know what 3 billion other females want? |
I’ve always thought “What do women want?” is a silly question. It always depends on the woman in question. |
Alpha Echo, Exactly right. And this paragraph from the article admits as much: Meana made clear…that she was speaking in general terms, that, when it comes to desire, “the variability within genders may be greater than the differences between genders,†that lust is infinitely complex and idiosyncratic. That paragraph appears to contradict the point the article is trying to make. Oh well, this is the NYT after all, we can hardly expect it to be coherent. |
You are beautiful. Seems saw you before. Did you ever posted your profile to a celebrity and millioniare dating site called ++MyRichMatch.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~? I just saw your profile yesterday on that site. |
Mom Blogs – Blogs for Moms… … |
How do women know what 3 billion other females want? empirical generalization |
Mark Brown (1), Yes, the post-marriage crash has been going on since the times of Mr. and Mrs. Thor, but I think the crash occurs a lot more strongly in women due to their fixation on the wedding. Sister blah 2 (5),
I see what you’re saying, but note that the researchers in the NYT article are all women trying to ascertain “what women want.” |
Dan E – Interesting post, I am always fascinated by the question of what women want as it is always posed by men. Where are the questions about what men want since they seem to be the ones who destroy most relationships and marriages… |
Devyn (13), That’s my next post. For men, I think the question is a lot easier to answer, but the answers are going to seem strange and maybe a little distressing to female readers. I disagree with the idea that men destroy most relationships and marriages- I think women’s cultural conditioning is equally culpable in ruining marriages. |
This is in reference to comments 13 and 14. Regardless of one’s position on civil unions or SSM, some interesting facts can be observed in couples of the same sex which should probably cause us to re-think some of our assumptions. For instance, lesbian couples report almost exactly the same amount of domestic violence as heterosexual couples. Our easy generalizations about males and testosterone-fueled violence doesn’t account for that fact, so we ought to revise it. |
Mark (15), That’s true, but I think cultural factors ruin just as many marriages as violence; women are conditioned to disregard their own development in the expectation that they will be somehow completed by their male spouses, and much of women’s entertainment focuses strongly on the wedding day, with not much thought to seriously assessing the person they are about to marry. Much of marital dissatisfaction can be attributed to men’s behavior, but I think a lot of it can be attributed to erroneous concepts of marriage that women bring to the marriage. My wife and I were in a Church building recently and we looked into the Young Women’s classroom, where the YW leaders had taken a poster of The Princess Bride and mocked it up to say The Princess and the RM, the message being that finding an RM to marry should be the primary focus of a girl’s life. Poor girls. And poor guys. |
I didn’t like Clay Aiken more when I knew he was gay. I think his personality is kind of awful. I saw him be totally rude to Kelly Ripa. He sort of grosses me out. BUT, his voice is like fine wine, if I’d ever tasted fine wine. I just love his voice. Although I hated how he sang “Bridge Over Troubled Waters.” Nobody but Simon & Garfunkel—and me should sing that song. I love that sexual tension thing of when the guy acts like he hates you, but actually can’t keep himself from you. In movies, not necessarily in real life since I’ve never experienced that. That’s what Twilight has. Although Jane Eyre did it so much better. I always liked that feeling when you first feel attraction to somebody—that excitement period. After that it’s kind of downhill and I get bored. But I’m not a normal woman, so don’t anybody take anything from my experience. I guess my marriage to Bill has lasted because it’s never boring. |
annegb (17), Clay Aiken’s version of Bridge Over Troubled Water was a disgrace. Fortunately, a year or two ago Annie Lennox came and performed that song on American Idol and hit it out of the park. After that it’s kind of downhill and I get bored. The NYT article asserts that this arc is a result of you no longer feeling that your mate is choosing you. |
Hopefully the more educated sophisticated woman out there has better taste than Clay Aiken. |
I think the NYT article is very interesting and think it makes some valid points. However, it think this part is misinterpreted. I fail to see what it has to do with the Ensign article, however. The Ensign article is something I would want anyone who is newly married to read. Many married people get frustrated with the faults of their spouse. Unfortunately, many times there is little you can do to change your spouse. It is easy to think that marriage is supposed to be easy, that real love is supposed to eliminate difficulty, or “doing it right” and marrying in the temple after a spiritual witness means that your spouse will be perfect. Getting through those times when you are the angry, frustrated spouse, or you are married to the disappointed spouse can make a marriage successful and very possibly extremely happy. What a wonderful article. |
anon (20), The ensign article was excellent, but unfortunately it completely avoids the question of why this happens to so many women, in fact perhaps every married woman to some extent. What expectations do women bring to marriage vs. men? I would argue that if a woman understands the nature of the feelings leading her to marriage, she and her fiance can start their marriage with a better grounding in reality. The NYT article is a very useful discussion of those feelings of attraction and where they are rooted. |
I found the NYT article fascinating when it came out and read much of it aloud to my husband.I kept hoping someone on the bloggernacle would post on it. One of the most interesting (and most controversial) parts of the article was the linking of the female needs to be desired with the popular female fantasy of being raped (which in a twisted way represents the ultimate in desirability). The female fantasy of rape is surprising (or maybe only surprising to men) common. Dan (16) |
Thank you Dan for your post. I have been mulling around your ideas in my head for the last couple of days. *I have decided that you* are* right* on* every* point*. I have never understood the popularity of Brittany Spears. She can’t sing. but she is a pretty good dancer. You are right that young women are her biggest fans. They emulate her sexy. The same goes for Twilight. It is the intense “desire” for Bella who is average. Fans see themselves in Bella. THe problem with LDS brides, is they are taught only two goals: get married in the Temple and marry a returned missionary. From what I have observed there is little talk about life after the wedding night, and compatibility in marriage besides getting yourself a RM. Lack of real preparation causes unhappy newlyweds. No other goals, maybe a baby on the way, and real life has a way of knocking them on their butts. |
I’ve never fantasized about being raped. I’ve thought about what happens to women in times of war with dread and thought it would be better to kill your daughter yourself before you let that happen. I’ve never heard a woman voice that fantasy, only the fear. |
Since I have no time for blogging, I just skimmed this. It appears to be about whether or not Clay Aiken was more sexy before he admitted he was gay, whether or not only Simon and Garfunkel should sing “Bridge Over Troubled Water”, if it’s sexy to have someone act like they hate you but stalk you anyway, and whether or not we’ve fantasized about rape. |
“Overall, there are nine reports of the percentage of women who have had rape fantasies, with these estimates ranging from 31% to 57%. Estimates were evenly distributed, with a median of 42%.” -Journal of Sex Resarch |
annegb (24), The rape fantasy Katie mentioned is reported among a minority of women surveyed; I think the number was about 10%. Even that number is shocking. But other surveys show substantial numbers of women desiring to be dominated in some way, or desiring sex with strangers. Both of those scenarios have their roots in wanting to be desired, as the NYT article suggests. |
Dan, |
Anne-as weird as it sounds. I read a bodice ripper as a Jr. high student. A friend told me it was a great book. Just so you know, bodice rippers have never been my interest. I do not remember who the author was or the title. I think it scarred me for life. The story was about a woman getting raped and later falling in love with her rapist, because she were so awesome that the rapist could not stop himself. So somebody must have been reading that book for it to be so popular. Anon- really good comment. |
anon (28),
The question I have is, does a woman not see any of these things in a husband before marriage? What is it that makes a woman capable of overlooking those things before marriage, and incapable of overlooking those things after the knot is tied? The NYT article suggests that the sensation of being in love — and then the woman’s falling out of love due to no longer feeling her husband is volunatarily choosing her — explains the woman’s arc of disappointment. Perhaps she has difficulty with his swearing, or his confessed past porn problem, or his laziness about home teaching, or his continual delay about having children, his little white lies, his inability to see how his insensitive comments hurt those around him, his inability to be forgiving, his spending habits that counteracted her plans for a brighter future, his different ideas on Sunday activities, the questionable entertainment, his laziness about his career, or his putting career over marriage, his materialism, or him thinking worldly things are important, the yelling and fighting, the forgetfulness, the wrong ideas about discipline, the unkindness. That’s a pretty thorough list; it makes me feel depressed for the male gender. |
Again, I’d like to suggest that, with the exception of porn use, all the other negatives on that list are well represented in both males and females. Overspending, laziness, inability to forgive, arguing, worldliness, unkindness — those are all part of being fallen mortals. One of the ways our current discourse and emphasis on gender in the church has limited our ability to understand is that it has caused us to see gender differences everywhere, even when they aren’t there. |
#30 Dan- if a woman sees a man’s flaws before she marries him, she thinks she can ‘change’ him; since he adores her, he will allow himself to be changed/transformed. |
“The question I have is, does a woman not see any of these things in a husband before marriage? What is it that makes a woman capable of overlooking those things before marriage, and incapable of overlooking those things after the knot is tied?” JA Benson does make a point which has probably been addressed in another NYT article. How much does a woman subconsciously think her man will change once married? Of course she thinks that once he marries her he will make some changes…like where he lives, how he spends his time, how he shares his money, etc. Some of those changes are obvious and expected. Just as when a man becomes a father some changes in behavior are expected. |
I think Margaret said it best. |
“Married love is more an act of will than hormones.” well said anon #33 |
Dan E, I’m with anon in #28. I didn’t see what you saw in the referenced Ensign article. My take or analysis of it is more like anon’s. |
I agree, that’s well said. I don’t think the topic of married love is addressed in any of the research summarized in the NYT article; it’s really another field altogether. annegb (33), It sounds like you’re uncomfortable with parts of this discussion. I know some of the assertions in the article are kind of twisted; keep in mind they are based on surveys of women- these are women reporting on their own thinking and feelings. Moreover, after this NYT article was published, they were flooded with responses from women who said the article actually explained their sense of attraction. Granted, these women may be mostly regular NYT readers and therefore not representative of the broader population, but as Katie pointed out in #26, some of the shocking aspects of the article are supported by research surveying the broader population. |
Dan, JABenson, |
#38 mmiles- I agree not most women, but the women who do see flaws, do think they can change their man. Lots of insecure young women get married. |
As I said before, in the Ensign article, the girl was either aware of his faults and overlooked them because she was “swept off her feet,” or, as JA Benson said, she thought she could change him. Or, as anon pointed out, he may have surprised her with some really unattractive or sinful behavior after the wedding. I think another option is, she was just clueless about who she was marrying, viewing marriage as a transaction where you find some guy who doesn’t disgust you, pray for a confirmation, and then proceed. There are actually a lot of people who get married when they are not crazy about each other in the least, viewing it as more or less a step on the way to heaven. I had a stake president in my college stake who was absolutely baffled that the singles in the stake insisted on having strong feelings for someone before marrying them. This stake president taught us a formula for marriage that was basically the same as the “set a date” formula for missionary work. |
this is an interesting post. in particular the NYT article. i have been “obsessed” lately with how frequently and at the level of intensity in which i have been noticing other women’s bodies. i am a 32 year old woman with 3 children. i consider myself very attractive but in the last 4 years have entered this new physical phase in my life (post preg.) that i’m still trying to make sence of. i think ? that i’m trying to evaluate what is “sexually attractive”, by looking at other women’s bodies, and then see if i fit within those guidelines. but i also feel desire. i think that the desire is more that i want to look like these other women, at least the part that i’m objectifying, but i’m not sure. are any of you women having this experience? i feel like such a hypocrit because as much as i don’t want to be objectified and seen as the prey, i sure am interested in it. my husband points out that i would not be comfortable with him behaving like this but i don’t know how to changed this way of valuing myself as a sexual being. any thoughts? |
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I’ll be anonymous today. My sisters read this. I grew up cowed by intrusive parents, especially my misogynistic, domineering father. When I got to BYU I ended up working for a Psych Professor who tried to teach me how to make my own life. After college I married a fairly new convert and moved from far away from Utah. He was raised in an egalitarian home. I had such a fun time after I got married. I was much happier than I ever expected to be. Reality didn’t set in for years, maybe when our kids were teenagers. My husband is still a traveling circus. I’m still laughing, and desire is still mutual and frequent. |
A number of things have come to mind since I’ve read this post. 1) Johnny Lingo was on to something. 2) I think the research is highly illuminating on many levels. The conclusions don’t necessarily refer to any rightness or wrongness of behavior, or even that women are proven to be somewhat “shallow” in regards to their own self-image. In speaking about this with my wife, she gave me a resounding “duh”. What comes of this is the insight into normal and acceptable marital relationship interactions. Assuming that relationships are reciprocal by nature, or that successfully interdependent, happy relationships are, we can draw some rather crude conclusions. We define ‘attractiveness’ as the sum of physical and psychological features or traits that are pleasant and appealing to the sensibilities of another individual. Beginning from pre-relationship, women desire to be made to feel attractive (duh), getting into a relationship is both contingent upon her attractiveness and reinforcing of her attractiveness. For a man, the goal of the relationship might be two-fold- a certain amount of attractiveness, a certain amount of sexual satisfaction, but also a certain amount of possessiveness/dominance, which is related to his ultimate feeling of independence. Likewise, these may be necessary and satisfied by the relationship. The dating relationship is usually a facade, so I don’t think it is useful to address. That expectations are not met after marriage is simply the norm. The wedding is a fairy tale. It is the bride’s day and should be understood by all as completely unreflective of the future circumstances and relationship. It is a princess and pictures day- all eyes on the attractive woman. Nothing wrong here, but it should be understood as such. But the happy (marital) relationship may be contingent upon humble reciprocity. Case 1- the woman strives to be ‘attractive’ to her husband. The husband either returns the gesture by striving to make her feel attractive or rather accepts the gesture as an acknowledgment of his dominance in the relationship, where his wants are met. Case 2- the husband strives to make his wife feel ‘attractive’ (acts of chivalry, opening jars, massages, whatever), and she returns the gesture by focusing her behavior on being ‘attractive’. Or, she accepts his gestures as tokens of her dominance in wielding her attractiveness to her gain (withholding marital relations, asserting her independence financially or otherwise, etc.). The successful, happy marriage is then likely contingent upon each party’s willingness to cope with various disappointments while learning who the other person ‘really’ is, as well as perpetuating this cycle of humble reciprocity. It seems the answer to the question “what do women want?†is clear- It depends, but according to this research, it has everything to do with how she feels ‘attractive’. 3) This conclusion would reinforce the positive qualities of masculine chivalry- not as some ‘protector’ role, but as a humble act for the purpose of making the woman feel ‘attractive’ or of value to him. Very interesting. |
# 43, I love that you said this specifically:
I think this is so insightful as to the requirements of marriage. Overt, obvious expressions of desire must be mutual and frequent. I have a lot to work on in this regard. Mostly, the challenge entails dropping selfish tendancies, I think. |
This is one good looking, sexy theme, love it! What theme are you using? |
Yeah, I never comment on those blogs, even when the content is great! |