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If our policy in the Middle East was just to kill terrorists, you might be right. |
Actually, I don’t think it’s important that bin Laden be found or killed. What’s important is that enough of his lieutenants (the project managers and architects, if you will) are found and killed. To steal from Jeff’s Apple analogy, Apple didn’t become great solely because of Steve Jobs. It became great because there were a lot of great people working under Steve Jobs… |
Jeff, I’ve also got lots of years of software experience and I’m familiar with the Mythical Man Month. Your analysis is flawed. Terrorism is not a software project. Or if it is, it is like everyone running off and writing their own crappy web page using readily available open source software. If you think of terrorism as big projects like 9-11 or Mumbai then your analysis holds, but the vast majority of terrorism is done by small cells. Motivated individuals who can keep their mouths shut can accomplish a lot. The numbers aren’t large enough for MMM to apply. So if our policies breed hatred of our country and are part of the rationale people use to justify their own radicalism then we are hurting ourselves in the long term. Any idiot can blow themselves up or fire an AK-47. It isn’t exactly rocket science or even software engineering. |
As a matter of fact, it takes a lot more than a single idiot to blow themselves up. It takes recruiters, trainers and bomb makers. It takes planning. The guy at the bottom may be any old rage-fueled willing martyr, but that does not mean that there are not guys up the chain who must have certain skills. Or fighting an insurgent war takes skills and training. Now, whether those skill are strictly analogous to software design skills or other supply chain skills is a different argument. Are they as rare as those skills? Where can you learn and develop them? All good questions. In many ways, this can be similar to criminal activity. Many who turn to crime lack the skills to succeed at it (which is a good thing). This is why you have all those ‘stupid criminal’ lists. The scary criminals are the ones smart enough, with the correct set of skills to do it well and not to try once or twice and get themselves caught. By way of counter example, the US Army is extremely concerned with the loss of not high ranking generals and leadership but the loss of mid-level leadership. Those are the guys who get the stuff done… on either side of the conflict. I would direct you to “Paradise Now” or “Suicide Bombers: Secrets of the Shaheed”, both excellent documentary films that discuss the subject. One is directed by a Palestinian, the other by a Jew so they do deal with the subject from different angles and show a much greater difference in their sympathy with these men and women. |
#1, as queno (#2) pointed out, I didn’t mean to suggest that the efforts should be focused only at the top, though there should also be efforts there too. It is not necessarily required to take out the top guy to effectively disrupt a terror network. arj #3, I used two analogies, both somewhat imperfect, to think about terrorists and terrorism, respectively. The MMM was mentioned in reference to terrorists, as a lesson I learned in software development, which is that people and their skills and talents are not interchangeable. But terrorism can be usefully compared to is a kind of multinational corporation (which could include software developers), along with its (sometimes loosely) affiliated suppliers, contractors, and dealers. The skills required to assemble this network and then deliver the “product” are not in great supply, even in a highly motivated talent pool. As you say, it should be pretty easy to blow yourself up (though this task evaded Richard Reid), but the explosive most easily accessible to terrorists, TATP (or as they call it, “the Mother of Satan”) is very unstable, so it does present a challenge to blow yourself up at the right time. Oplan Bojinka, was exposed when the apartment where the explosives were being made caught fire. This is also a common problem for the suicide bombers in Palestine. It is also an open question about how many people are really actually willing to blow themselves up for a political goal. Both in Iraq and in Israel/Palestinian Territories, at least some of the bombers were mentally retarded, or were lied to about what they were actually going to be doing. It could be that the supply of people willing to blow themselves up is actually quite limited, no matter how objectionable our foreign policy has become. And we are more fortunate than the Middle East, since those people have to get themselves and the bombing materials transported a fairly long distance. Again, this requires recruitment, training, discipline, coordination, planning, and money. Osama and Zawahiri did not volunteer for suicide missions. This is often chalked up to cowardice, but in fact as savvy multinational executives, they understand that their skills are not easily replaceable, so it would hurt their cause to sacrifice themselves. The terror masters understand that people are not interchangeable. So far as AK-47s go, I have often wondered why attacks using simple weapons like that are not more popular, since they should be relatively easy to acquire. I would have thought John Allen Mohammed’s very effective terrorizing of DC (though I don’t consider this actual terrorism) would have inspired some more politically-motivated copycats. Bombay attacks in November used a lot of guns, though I note there were also bombs in that attack, and that certainly provided the most vivid television imagery (which is in fact the primary goal of terrorism; call it the mass casualty method of sending out a press release). There were 10 attackers, and evidence of real time coordination from other skilled personnel, perhaps even from a government intelligence agency. It could be that even with guns, the kind of coordination, operational secrecy, and effective insertion/removal of the combatants is more challenging than we appreciate. And a good thing too! After all that, Lon #4 seems to have made these same points more concisely than I have. |
Islamic Rage Boy is a phenom- I would love to take him to lunch and Star Trek. I wonder if there is a Mormon equivalent to him somewhere. |
I used to joke back in my frothy-mouthed Linux days that all you needed to fix the Microsoft problem was to take out Bill Gates. But then after having worked at lots of different technology companies since then, I came to the conclusion that Bill wasn’t really the problem. It was the Ballmers and the Allchins. They weren’t particularly visionaries — but they were the guys who made the visions work. I read a recent biography of Hyrum Smith and came away impressed with the notion that he enjoyed a co-president role than we’ve ever had since. Joseph rightly gets credited for his translations and revelations and prophesies, but the Church wouldn’t have organized itself properly without Hyrum’s guidance… |
On the issue of torture (which is the debate between the failed Cheney and the newcomer Obama), how our enemies, or even the people sitting on the fence, in the middle, not yet having chosen a side, view us, or how they respond is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if we instigate more people to terrorism or virulent anti-Americanism or not. We just simply do not stand for torture. We never did until Dick Cheney came along. We prosecuted people for waterboarding. We criticized the Chinese and the Russians for sleep deprivation. This issue has always been, and always will be about us, about what defines who we are, as a nation. Are we a nation of torturers? If we are, then we’ve trampled on the very things our forefathers have fought and bled to defend: the values of a civilized society. We fought against the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese because they did things like this to their prisoners, to their people. The really freaking sad part is that the SERE model was learned to us by the Chinese during the Korean War. Where do you think those techniques came from? They came from the Chinese who employed them on our soldiers to elicit FALSE CONFESSIONS! That we would turn around and try to use these very same techniques to get accurate intelligence is so stupid as to be unbelievable. Unless, of course, the actual reason for the use of these techniques was indeed to get FALSE CONFESSIONS of a connection between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. After all, it was under waterboarding by the Egyptians that al-Libi confessed to the false connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda in December 2001, leading the Americans down to the worst decision America ever made: Invading Iraq. Remember, KSM was captured on March 1, 2003 and was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003. Anyone want to venture a guess as to why he was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003? What event occurred in March 2003? Anyone? Anyone? Think of the public relations coup if the Bush administration got one of the top leaders of Al-Qaeda to confess to a connection with Saddam on the eve of the invasion! This is not what America stands for. It was what we used to stand against. That we would now even consider standing for this is a slap in the face, a spit in the face to our forefathers who bled and died for the sanctity of this country. A shame on any who support torture. |
Obushama. New boss, same as the old boss. |
(And Dan, while I appreciate your passion for this topic, let’s not pretend that the US wasn’t a nation of torturers long before Dick Cheney became VP. Most blatant? Yes. But hardly the first.) |
Didn’t some terrorist break under continued exposure to the Red Hot Chili Peppers? Now THAT’s torture — and it didn’t come from the east. |
“A shame on any who support torture.” You mean if they had a crook in custody who knew where your kidnapped child was you’d be against them depriving him of sleep to get the info? For shame. |
You mean if that same crook were pimping for Jeffery Dahmer or Ted Bundy you’d be against using sleeping deprivation on him? To extract info that would get those horrid maniacs off the street? |
You mean if some nut were to kife a nuclear weapon you’d be against depriving him of sleep in order to stop him from decimating a major metropolitan area? |
The logical consequent of the anti-torture argument is complete pacifism. We either dismantle the military or equip them with nothing but pillows. Same goes for the police. |
queuno,
Clearly. Don’t get me wrong, my anger is not partisan on this issue. Jack,
Yep. I would instead ask God. Jack, you’re under the impression that depriving someone of sleep will make that person compliant AND able to give you accurate information. That would be false. Don’t take it from me. Take it from the former Israeli prime minister, Menachem Benin:
Huh…tell your interrogators whatever they want to hear, sign whatever they want you to sign, just to get sleep. That doesn’t sound like a credible way to get accurate intelligence. The idea that you can “crack” open someone is fake. It is fiction. It is not real. If you crack someone’s mind, you can’t put it back together in the same manner so that it works to give you what you want out of it. It just doesn’t happen that way.
Yep. I would instead ask God where that nuclear weapon were. Surely God is all for protecting innocent life and would be very helpful in being a source of very accurate information. Far more accurate than a hardened terrorist who, upon torture, will tell me what he thinks I want to hear. Mark D.,
No it’s not and it’s a silly argument to make, Mark. It is a straw man. Name me an actual, real person, who advocates that. |
Dan, Pacifism has a long and storied tradition. For example, the Quaker Declaration of Pacifism, made to Charles II, ca. 1660:
The refusal to sanction waterboarding under any condition ultimately based on the concept that waterboarding is an unjustified evil under any and all conditions. If that is the case, certainly maiming and killing people, even under close adherence to the law of war cannot be justified under any condition either. One last thing – using waterboarding to extract a confession would indeed be of extremely dubious accuracy. However, the intelligence that terrorists give up under sufficient pressure can be independently verified from other sources and incidental to acting on such information. The testimony of numerous officials from the prior adminstration is that indeed it has, and the current administration is unwilling to release any information to the contrary. |
It’s not just the prior administration that has testified that the interrogation methods produced important information: “High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,†Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director [of the Obama admin], wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday. |
I always go back and forth on the torture issue. Part of me feels like Dan that, we as a country, should set the standard and be above it. However, part of me also feels differently if we are talking about someone who violated a member of my family or someone close to me. In that case, the vigilante side of me comes out. I am not sure if there should be a balance here or should we be above the vigilante side of things… |
Devyn,
What did Jesus teach? |
Mark,
Even if you were to be utilitarian about this, as opposed to moralistic, waterboarding just doesn’t give you accurate information. It has never been its purpose. Waterboarding was ALWAYS used to extract false confessions, from the Spanish Inquisition to the Chinese using it on our soldiers during the Korean War. Waterboarding was never used to get accurate information from prisoners about the whereabouts of this or that. It was always about sadistic tendencies to show you are more powerful than your detainee, and to get your detainee to sign a false confession. It is evil, moralistically, but it’s also useless based on utilitarian principles. It’s not worth the weight of the water used!
That is also correct. The difference is that God has given us justification to wage war. He has never given us justification to mistreat and abuse other people.
Really? If you know next to nothing about the organization, how exactly are you going to verify that what a detainee tells you under duress is accurate? Eh? See if it corroborates with what another detainee tells you under duress? Like the connections between Saddam and Al-Qaeda? Al-Libi, under duress, confessed to a connection. So Zubaydah was waterboarded, thinking that he would corroborate what al-Libi said. Zubaydah didn’t, because 1) it wasn’t true, and 2) Zubaydah didn’t think that was what the Americans wanted to hear. How about KSM? He was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003. He never mentioned a single thing about Iraq or you bet your bottom that Bush would have said so! Why didn’t he? 1) it wasn’t true. 2) KSM didn’t think that was what the Americans wanted to hear. So how do you “independently” corroborate what a detainee tells you under duress if you know little about the situation?
So you are all for releasing ALL RELEVANT DOCUMENTS so that we have a public accounting of what is factual and what is not? I’m all for that dude. Let’s get to the bottom of this and stop the silly debate over torture. Be prepared to admit it doesn’t work though, Mark. Don’t listen to your fellow conservatives who will think of devious ways to spin the facts. Torture doesn’t work. Torture led us into Iraq when we did not need to go into Iraq. Torture has led to many false leads, because that’s what it does.
Yeah, he’s not that smart. |
I’m with Devyn. I can’t quite decide. But if somebody even threatened me with sleep deprivation, I’d give them the keys to the White House in a flash. You know, Dan, Christ like behavior doesn’t make extremists want to be nice back. It makes them scorn us even more. They don’t debate whether Allah wants them to torture US soldiers (we haven’t heard much from the media about what they’ve done to captured US soldiers). They’re totally down with torturing their enemies and heck, each other. Think what they do to their women. If we, as a nation, started reaching out in love to Muslim extremists, they’d still want to kill us and they would do so in a New York minute. Dan, have you heard of Dnesh Dsouza? He wrote “What’s So. Great About America.”. Good book. |
Dan, I appreciate your zeal on the topic of terrorism. It is good to have a voice or two abstain from moderation. It should be no surprise to you that many people can’t unequivocally lie down on one side or the other. Jesus doesn’t have too many life examples or teachings regarding terrorism, torture, or vigilante justice (unless you count the cleansing of the temple as vigilante justice). Your appeal to Christians or Christianity is especially interesting since we live in a nation that does not reflect much good Christianity. With abortion and the latest assisted suicide laws, we’re far from “thou shalt not kill”, and even farther from abstaining from anger towards our brothers. We’ve found acceptable reasons to kill. Frankly, our nation is a twisting mess of exceptions to Christian ethos. |
Dan, “Yeah, he’s not that smart.” Great. President Obama’s Director of National Intelligence is apparently a dim bulb according to you. Now that makes me feel safe, it’s nice to know that Obama takes national security so seriously. Or perhaps, having access to the classified intelligence results, he is better informed on the subject than you are. |
Waterboarding was ALWAYS used to extract false confessions The key word in there is “was”. There is no reason to extract confessions from terrorists. Under the traditional laws of war, such violators (pirates, brigands, et al) caught in the act would be shot on the spot. All such individuals should be tried by military commissions, and if found guilty executed. To adopt any other policy is a significant threat to world peace and stability. |
anne,
Well put. You’d give them what you think they want, and what you really don’t have. Nicely said. You’d do all you could to make them stop torturing you. Well put Anne.
So? We’re not followers of Christ so others can be nice to us. We’re followers of Christ because we believe He taught us the way to a righteous life, regardless of what others do to us, or think about us.
Doesn’t matter at all what they do, unless you think it is perfectly okay to stoop to their level.
How do you know that? Furthermore, even if that was the case, what would it hurt to actually be nice to them? Would it really do us harm? rather, are we not doing more harm by being mean and dirty to them?
Heard of him. Will never read his books. He’s not that smart. |
nasamomdele, Ugh. |
nasamomdele,
Cleansing the temple is not vigilante justice, and I’ve always been bothered that Mormons particularly continue to use the cleansing of the temple as excuse, or justification for, some pretty awful acts. I’ve heard numerous examples of “well, Jesus beat the moneychangers therefore we can attack Iraq!” Have Mormons just simply been dumbed down or what? Don’t forget that Peter used violence against a man in the Garden of Gethsemane to protect his Lord. And what did the Savior do and say? He said to put down the weapon, and he healed the ear of the man Peter attacked. I feel that most Mormons today are like the impetuous Peter, the quick to action slow to think Peter. It’s okay to slice off the ear of a soldier in defense of Jesus. But Jesus taught that that was not necessary. Don’t forget that when the soldier slapped Jesus in the face for refusing to answer Caiaphas, Jesus didn’t justifiably hit back but asked the man, “for what offense do you hit me?” These instances don’t in any way shape or form state that we should become completely non-violent, that we should all lay down our arms and let our enemies slice us up at their will. But these instances, along with numerous others in Jesus’ life, show us that with regard to our enemies, and to those that wish us harm, we must show them love. That we must do good to them. That we must treat them with respect and kindness. If they come upon us to kill us, we must defend ourselves, but at the same time, save their lives too, as Captain Moroni did in Alma 43. Read that chapter very carefully. Note how many opportunities Captain Moroni gave the invading Lamanite army to leave, to go back home to their families. He didn’t want to harm them. He didn’t want to kill them. He was being nice to the most extent he possibly could. In priesthood today, we read from the Joseph Smith manual of an instance when some men came to find Joseph Smith and wanted to kill him. Joseph Smith had some options. 1. He could have run away and live another day. 2. He could have attempted to kill them, thus saving himself, but thus also escalating the situation. He chose option 3. He confronted the men, presented himself in a manner in which they didn’t expect about him. He was nice to them. He was so nice to them that upon telling them that he had to go back home, one of the men said, “sir you shall not walk home alone. It isn’t safe. We will guard you.” nasamomdele, I don’t know when Mormons got so militaristic and violent, but it has to end. This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There’s a big difference between defending your country and what we are doing today. What we are doing today is not defending our country but attacking another group, stirring them up to more hate and violence toward us. The more we do this, the less peace there will be in this world.
I appeal to Christianity in a religion that doesn’t reflect much good Christianity right now. How can Mormons justify torture when they state that they believe in Jesus Christ? when they state that they believe in the plan of salvation? Have Mormons forgotten that EVERY SINGLE human being on this earth chose to follow God’s plan in the pre-existence? That we all stood side by side and said “Yes” to God’s plan. Every single one of us. Even Osama Bin Laden, who sadly was not born a Mormon in this world. That they, those who have not come to accept Christ, choose to employ evil acts is one thing, but that we who have chosen to accept Christ also choose to employ evil acts is quite another. We know better. |
Aluwid,
Well for eight years we were led by the most dim bulb America has ever seen lead, so we’ve got a vast improvement. Cheney never took national security seriously. He wanted war with Iraq, so he tortured detainees to find the link between 9/11 and Iraq. Don’t forget that 9/11 happened on their watch. They had eight months to prepare. Can’t blame 9/11 on Clinton. It’s all on Bush/Cheney. They didn’t take national security seriously and then they overcompensated knowing how badly they screwed up. |
Mark,
Dude, you don’t get it. Let me make sure it is clear. The main purpose of waterboarding IS to extract false confessions. Under the traditional laws of war, such violators (pirates, brigands, et al) caught in the act would be shot on the spot. Huh? What “traditional laws of war?”
No it isn’t. The threat from piracy, terrorism, etc is quite minimal. It was in the 1700s, and it is today. Terrorists, pirates simply do not have the power a nation-state has. To try and make the argument that they are a “significant threat to world peace and stability” is to make a mockery of those who died against REAL threats to world peace and stability. Condoleezza Rice, for example, should be ashamed of herself for saying something as stupid as saying that al-Qaeda is a bigger threat to America than Nazi Germany solely because Al-Qaeda managed to hit us on our mainland, whereas Nazi Germany could never quite get to us. Al-Qaeda is a weak organization that relies on small hits to anger nation-states to war against other nation-states. If we act on that provocation and start attacking the nations they wish for us to attack (in the case of Al-Qaeda, they would have loved it if we attacked other Muslim states—which we promptly did, thus giving them a recruiting bonanza), then we play right into their hands. You have to understand, al-Qaeda just doesn’t have the mobilization power a nation-state has. Nazi Germany in 1938 was the most powerful nation on the planet at the time. There was none greater than they. They had a powerful, robust economy that pumped out a very powerful war machine. To try and state that al-Qaeda in any way shape or form equals or surpasses that power shows your ignorance. (It would be in Stanford’s best interest to kick Condoleezza Rice out the door. She is an insult to higher education). Furthermore, piracy and terrorism work in an environment where the rule of law is bendable or even broken. To NOT use the rule of law against such acts breeds further devolution of the rule of law, and thus continues to create that cesspool of lawlessness where piracy and terrorism thrive. |
Dan, It is useful to separate Mormons from the policies of the United States of America. Mormons have never and most likely will never decide the path of this country. I think you’re right, though. I agree with you on the torture issue. I don’t think there’s any use for it. |
Dan, Could you please elaborate on how your low opinion of Admiral Blair’s intelligence proves that he was wrong when he stated that valuable information was learned through our enhanced interrogation methods? Remember, Admiral Blair has access to the intelligence that we have gathered about terrorist groups. He is also aware of where this intelligence was obtained. So what exactly are you claiming? Are you saying that Blair mixed up where we received intelligence? That he thought we learned something through waterboarding that actually was learned through some other means? Or perhaps you’re saying that the intelligence that was obtained through sleep deprivation is all faulty and he just hasn’t realized it yet? (Because he’s dumb or something?) Again, he has the information in front of him, he says that we learned things through the enhanced interrogation methods, he referred to what we learned as “High value”. How do you explain that away? The fact is that what was done worked, it was done in the best interests of the country, and we are a safer nation because of it. |
nasamomdele,
That’s kinda hard when Mormons pushed SERE to the CIA, and when a Mormon (Bybee) signed off on it. And it is a similar argument that was made today in priesthood when I brought up how what Joseph Smith taught us about being peacemakers can be implemented in our world today. The pushback was the argument that we must follow our leaders, blah blah blah. It’s an interesting argument to make. On the one hand, Mormons supposedly have little influence upon the morals that this country must abide by, but on the other hand, Mormons have a very easy time pressing on another moral issue: gay marriage. Apparently we have influence on what this nation must do morally on one issue but absolutely none at all on another. How can that be, unless a vast majority of Mormons think it is perfectly okay to employ torture (as Aluwid illustrates), and would rather not be bothered in defending the human dignity of people we consider lower than dogs (something which those SERE Mormons said about detainees from Afghanistan). Previous peoples that employed brutish tools on others found an easy way to justify their actions. By claiming that the “others” (Jews, Armenians, Hutus) were less than human (and in some cases akin to cockroaches), it made it very easy to do what they wanted to do to those less than human “others.” After all, who on this planet feels bad for killing a cockroach? |
Dan, “How can that be, unless a vast majority of Mormons think it is perfectly okay to employ torture (as Aluwid illustrates), and would rather not be bothered in defending the human dignity of people we consider lower than dogs” You’re attacking a straw man and demonizing members of your own faith. |
It’s not a straw man. It’s real. |
Dan, It’s real according to your definition — a straw man according to mine. |
Dude, you don’t get it. Let me make sure it is clear. The main purpose of waterboarding IS to extract false confession I take it you believe there is some eternal and inextricable metaphysical connection between action and intent? |
With regard to the laws of war, I am referring to conventions with precedents and legal scholarship going back thousands of years. Uniformed soldiers acting under a chain of command, who refrain from attacking civilian, non-industrial targets are granted the full protection of prisoners of war, i.e. they are not held *personally* responsible for the military actions they engage in, are to be treated well, and so on. Non-uniformed soldiers, including spies, or those who act outside a legitimate chain of command, are considered brigandi or criminals, and under martial law are subject to summary execution, regardless of nationality. The same rule applies to looters and pirates. |
Mark,
Dude, there ain’t anything philosophical about this. The main purpose of waterboarding is to extract a false confession. Maybe it is too simple for you to understand; maybe it needs to be more complicated, but really, it’s not that hard to figure this stuff out. As to your number 38, I understand all that. I just don’t get the connection to extracting false confessions or not out of detainees. |
Dan, my point is the fact that waterboarding has been historically used primarily to extract confessions in no way metaphysically precludes its use for other purposes. |
Well, Dan, you sure are putting down a lot of peoples’ intelligence who don’t agree with you. D’Nesh D’Souza is as smart as you, he just doesn’t agree with you. And he has one over on you: first hand experience. |
Dan, Can you explain how this interogation method ONLY gives a false confession? Is it not possible that the confession is true? My guess is that the intel sources will verify the contacts, times, dates, etc., of the information extracted with other intel gathered in the field. |
The fact is that, overall, torture works. That’s why it’s been used for ages. |
Those who are squeamish about torture also don’t seem to grasp the overall aspect of war. War is about killing and hurting people, but it rarely causes quick clean kills. Warfare is mostly about injuring and maiming, even when the goal is a quick kill. Most deaths due to warfare are drawn out, due to injuries that don’t kill right away. And in war, many more people survive the war with permanent injuries than are killed by battlefield injuries. Warfare is torture. The differences between the battlefield and the prison is how close you can get to the opponent, and where one is chaotic and unpredictable, the other is controlled. Snipers who kill instantly with one shot, and smart-bombs that take out only one building, are a small small portion of warfare’s violence. The vast majority of killing in battle ends up being messy, painful and drawn out anyway. The logical extension of banning torture as an implement of warfare is to ban all warfare. There’s extremely little moral difference, if any, between torturing an enemy in prison in order to get crucial information, and using artillery on enemy soldiers in the battlefield. Well, banning all war would be good, but it can’t be done as long as there are evil men who are willing to kill innocents, and as long as people have the right to defend themselves militarily against evildoers. There is also a huge mistake being made by the anti-torture crowd in trying to equate terrorist planners with soldiers in a conventional army who are only following the lawful orders of their government. Terrorists, and especially their planners, masterminds, and leaders are in a whole different category than rank-and-file uniformed trigger-pullers. |
Mark,
But it does because the only historical evidence of its usefulness is to extract false confessions. On what grounds does anyone think waterboarding could possibly extract accurate information before beginning the use of waterboarding when historically its use has been for false confessions? |
anne,
First hand experience? At what? Being American? |
Rick,
We’ve had too much from our entertainment industry this notion that torture actually does work to give accurate information. I can think of numerous episodes of Alias where torture was used and EVERY SINGLE TIME the person being tortured gave accurate information. This is about as far from reality as you can get! Does waterboarding only provide false information? No. Do you possibly get some truth out of it? Sure, you might. Is it worth the effort though and the cost? No. Not at all. Not when you get far better, more accurate information from someone from traditional methods, plus traditional methods don’t come with the added baggage that torture brings. Not only is torture a huge negative on the individual being tortured, but also on the one instigating torture. He (or she) is also negatively affected. Furthermore, if you are going into a situation where you know very little about your enemy (which we apparently still do), relying on “fact checking” is of little value, because what you know about your enemy is so scant. From a utilitarian perspective (leaving aside the moralistic ground), it just simply is not worth the cost to torture your prisoners. You lose the high moral ground. Your enemies can justifiably torture YOUR soldiers as payback. It makes it much harder to criticize other nations for their less than reputable human rights records. Because torture has historically been used to sadistically punish, or to extract false confessions, it just is not reliably accurate. With the added baggage, why the hell would ANYONE think it is worth the cost? And of course, back to the moralistic ground, it is un-Christian to abuse another child of God, no matter their circumstance or their actions. It goes against the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No matter if you attempt to make the justification that we must do it to protect ourselves, yeah, tell that to God at judgment day and let’s see what he has to say about that. He might ask, “Why did you not rely on me for your protection?” It just doesn’t make sense from a utilitarian perspective, nor from a moralistic perspective. The only perspective under which it make sense is sadism. |
Bookslinger,
Huh, you are right. What does it work at doing though, Bookslinger? What’s it good for? Who generally uses it? You realize of course by employing waterboarding the United States put itself on the same level as Pol Pot. |
anon,
The difference between warfare and torture is that one is done to someone who is a threat to you while the other is done to someone who has already submitted himself to your hold. It’s the difference between shooting someone who is pointing a gun at you, and shooting someone who has dropped their gun and is no longer pointing it at you. Do you get that difference? One is justified, the other is murder. |
What’s the difference in someone withholding information to allow another mass murder to take place and forcing that one evil person wanting that mass murder to take place to talk. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I advocate such action, I’m only saying those that would create greater atrocities would be emboldened by such weak decisions as to not try to get as much information as possible by non-lethal means. |
Rick, It is not idealistic, but realistic. I’m telling you you cannot force information out of someone who doesn’t want to give it to you by torturing them. It is fantasy to think you can. The ticking-time-bomb scenario so often used as the ONLY justification for torture is the most unrealistic, idealistic opinion on this issue, Rick! It is a fabrication out of fictional works. It is not reality. There has never ever ever ever ever been a ticking-time-bomb scenario in actual reality. |
Rick, Follow me into a scenario. Say you are at war with Iran. You are a soldier. You are captured on a mission to spot out a new target. You send in your coordinates to your base who begins a launch to attack that spot. You are captured by the Iranians who now want to interrogate you at best possible speed to find out when that attack is to occur. Do you give in and tell your enemy what they want to know? Do you save the Iranians from the death that will be coming upon them with the impending attack you ordered in? Or do you give up your fellow comrades, your buddies in the military, so that they die instead? I mean, com’on. Don’t you guys think this stuff through? I don’t know about you, but personally, I would spit in the face of that Iranian and say “Do your worst, bastard, you’re gonna die soon!” Knowing that I would go through some terrible torture, I would make peace with myself knowing that my life is no longer in my hands. I would be prepared to meet my God. Nothing the Iranians would do to me would make me say what they want to hear. I don’t know about you, but it’s really not a question to me as to why torture is ineffective. I WOULDN’T talk under whatever pressure. The pain I would endure would be worth the killing of those Iranians, and the saving of my comrades’ lives. |
“I don’t know about you, but it’s really not a question to me as to why torture is ineffective. I WOULDN’T talk under whatever pressure. The pain I would endure would be worth the killing of those Iranians, and the saving of my comrades’ lives.” Little did the unsuspecting readers of Mormon Mentality know, but the man behind the pseudonym Dan was none other than, that’s right, John Rambo. |
Aluwid, Or said differently, liberals really aren’t squeamish about defending their country dude. |
Speaking of Rambo, let’s go back to fictional accounts of torture. Note that in fictional accounts, the good guys hang tough and don’t give information upon being tortured while the bad guys are weasels and cowards who give up information even by just threatening their lives with a gun to their heads. |
Oh and one more. John McClane. You know, the Die Hard dude. In the original film, Elis, this weasel lawyer dude who did cocaine thought he could “give ‘em to you”, to give Hans Grueber that grubby New York cop making such a ruckus two floors above him. Note that Hans Grueber thinks that by threatening the life of the fairly innocent Elis, John McClane would somehow give up his life. Instead, John McClane knows fairly well that if he were to give in to the demands of Hans Grueber, not only would both he and Elis be dead, but the bad guys would get away. Was that worth the loss of the life of Elis? From a utilitarian perspective, clearly Elis’s life was not worth the cost, and John knew that, letting Hans kill Elis. He knew, morally that that decision was a terrible one, and most likely he would have to account for that decision at judgment day. But just because one party thinks a certain event is so bad that clearly you should do all in your power to bring an end to it, another party thinks that certain event is great, and it should continue to its fruition. In my unrealistic scenario, the Iranians certainly don’t want to be attacked by the Americans and will want to do all in their power to bring that action to an end before Iranians die. But the Americans think it is perfectly fine action to kill those Iranians. How do you convince an American prisoner in your hands to tell you how to stop the impending massacre of Iranians? Do you actually think torture will convince that American prisoner to rat out his own brothers in arms so that they die instead of the Iranians? Let me ask it conversely. Do you actually think torture will convince that Iranian terrorist to rat out his own brothers in arms so that they will die instead of Americans? |
Well Dan, you’ve given me a few fictional accounts but history speaks for itself. If torture did not work, it would not be used. So no matter how many times you say the sky is yellow, those that have read history know otherwise. Does it work 100% of the time? No, but then neither do I. Please take it from a retired military vet. It DOES work and when coupled with other intel, can be very reliable. |
Rick,
According to the records released so far by the CIA, torture was only used from 2002-2003 (and maybe 2004). If it did really work, why would they stop using it?
I’ve always said the sky is blue. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
What does your being a retired military vet have to do with the price of tea in China? Were you there when they interrogated and tortured prisoners? Did you personally see the results? Or are you just taking at face value what others tell you, and therefore are on no higher plane than me? Secondly, even if you did get some intel from torture, is it worth the cost of using torture? Definitely not. You’ve got no argument Rick. |
Dan, 1. Torture has been used ALL THROUGHOUT HISTORY, not just from 2002-2004. Your argument here is based upon a false premise. 2. You are correct in that you don’t know what I’m talking about. Did you get it this time? 3. I’ve studied military history so that puts me at a clear advantage over someone that makes the claims you do. My son works in the CIA. He’ll be the first to tell you, to say torture does not work is complete ignorance of facts. It is not 100% reliable, AS I HAVE STATED, but the fact remains, it does work. Your denial of facts does not change this. Now your last question, “Even if you did get some intel from torture, is it worth the cost of using torture?” is NOT what you have been arguing. Completely different subject. |
Rick,
Torture has been used ALL THROUGHOUT HISTORY for false confessions. Between 2002-2004, the CIA thought they could use it for accurate information. Ask your son who works at the CIA where exactly they learned those techniques. He ought to tell you they came from SERE. Ask your son where SERE comes from. Or if you claim you are a military historian, you ought to know where SERE comes from. Answer me this, what purpose did the Chinese have in using those techniques on American soldiers during the Korean War? Was it for actionable accurate intelligence? By the way, no offense to your son, but I would not believe 1/100th of the words that come out of the mouths of anyone working for the CIA. They have lied 100 too many times in their short but pathetic history. What an awful organization! What a waste of taxpayer money. As to my last question, it is part of what I am arguing. Not only is it moralistically wrong and evil and against our core values, but from a utilitarian perspective it is simply NOT WORTH THE COST. You still have no argument to make Rick. |
Since we’re down to you calling my son a liar, I believe this discussion is closed. For future reference, Dan, it’s not weakness to admit when you’re wrong, it’s humility. |
Rick, But I’m not wrong. I have no problem admitting when I’m wrong. But when I’m not wrong, I simply won’t admit I’m wrong, because I’m not. Your son works for the CIA. It is their core business to lie, Rick. I’m not being at all offensive toward your son. That’s his job. As for the rest, I guess you let it stand that torture only really works for false confessions. You let stand that the CIA learned their techniques from the SERE program learned to us by the Chinese who used it on our soldiers to extract false confessions. You let it stand that our morals are now on par with those of Pol Pot, who also used waterboarding. Interestingly, Pol Pot didn’t use waterboarding to get accurate information. He used it to get false confessions. Imagine that. You let stand that the United States prosecuted Japanese soldiers who used waterboaring against American soldiers during World War II. Guess why the Japanese used waterboarding against American soldiers. Yep, false confessions. You still don’t have an argument Rick. You claim torture worked, but offer no evidence. I give you the history of the world as evidence that the uses of torture has always been, and always will be, to extract false confessions. You offer no realistic justification to counter the moral argument that even though torture is against our core values, we should still employ it. You use the ticking-time-bomb scenario which is not based on reality but on fiction. Upon providing you a counter unrealistic scenario, you laugh it off, but yet you want me to believe torture is morally justified based on your unrealistic scenario? You claim torture doesn’t work most of the time, but offer no defense to the argument that from a utilitarian perspective torture is just not worth the cost. So I say again, you have no argument, Rick. |
Dan, aka 007: “Do you expect me to talk?”, “Or said differently, liberals really aren’t squeamish about defending their country dude.” Well said, it’s a pity that our soldiers don’t have even half of the fortitude that you so humbly possess. Why just your behavior in this thread has displayed the awesome power that your sphere of obliviousness holds. As fact after fact continued to contradict your carefully constructed liberal fairy tale you did not budge or waver. If such hardy foes as truth, reality, and common-sense can not sway you then minor challenges like dental drills, hot irons, and impaling stakes surely wouldn’t cause you to budge an inch either. Its clear that we are wasting taxpayer dollars sending our soldiers to SERE for interrogation resistance training. We should instead replace them all with progressive Internet commentators who share your inability to process uncomfortable information that doesn’t fit neatly into your misguided world view. The terrorists would stand no chance, they’d all be wearing Che T-Shirts and chanting “Yes We Can!” in no time! |
Dan, You have given enough evidence that torture works with the admitting that those tortured will submit and say anything, the truth, a lie, happy birthday, that they want to marry a chicken, anything. I have repeatedly said it is not 100% reliable but that it DOES work. That means it DOES work part of the time. That part of the argument you lose based on you do not know of that which you speak. Now for the part where you said I want you to believe it is morally justified. Nowhere have I said torture is moral. It is part of warfare and as it is part of the greatest immorality, war, I happen to agree that it is immoral. That was not the disagreement I had with your inane rants. If you have seen otherwise, please let me know where that might be. Lastly, let’s talk about you not calling my son a person whose job it is to lie. A young man whose character you have impuned without even knowing him. Perhaps pulling the beam out might be a bit much to ask of you. |
Aluwid,
But they do. I take offense that you so deride our American soldiers particularly on Memorial Day like this. My point is that our soldiers would do exactly as I did. They would not break under torture. The reason I state this is that I believe neither would our enemy break under torture. And when I say “break under torture,” my meaning is that they would not give the interrogators what the interrogators want. Most often torture is used against people who actually don’t have the knowledge interrogators think they have. How exactly does the interrogator know when he has milked a detainee for all the information he has? If attempted through forceful means, how exactly does the interrogator know when to stop? If the detainee were to offer one piece of valuable information, how exactly does the interrogator know whether or not that detainee actually knows anything more? He doesn’t. He has no clue. So he continues to apply more pressure and more pain and more suffering on the detainee. And he gets nothing, he gets false leads. But there’s gotta be something else in there, in that head. Suddenly you find yourself where you have 183 waterboardings in one month with nothing to show for it except some false leads and lots of screams of pain and suffering. |
Rick, I guess you’re not done eh?
I lost nothing in this argument because I already agreed that torture makes people say whatever they think the interrogators want to hear. Whether some of it is true or not doesn’t matter, because it is not worth the cost. Morally it is against our core values. But not only is it against our core values, but the fact that we use torture UNDERMINES our very effort against our enemies. Because we are supposedly FIGHTING FOR those values we undermine with the use of techniques learned from our enemies!
You used the ticking-time-bomb scenario as justification for the use of torture. The use of the ticking-time-bomb scenario is a moral question. Do we let someone blow up New York City or do we torture his friend for the information of where the bomb is located? It is a moral question. You supported the argument of the ticking-time-bomb scenario. Now, if you don’t think there is any moral support for torture, then please say so. As the ticking-time-bomb scenario is unrealistic and based on fantasy and fiction, there is NO moral justification for torture. Do you agree with that?
To put this behind us, I apologize if I offended you. |
You DID lose something in this exchange. Credibility and the moral high ground. Perhaps you’ll grow wiser as you grow older. |
Rick, no, I bet he won’t. He has shown a consistent pattern of a pathology. I can’t say for sure exactly what pathology, but I’m guessing Secondary PTSD. Perhaps primary PTSD if his father was severely abusive. When a parent has PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) it can be passed on to children by way of the environment in which they are raised. Dan once described his father, and it sounded PTSD-like to me. So in Dan’s case I don’t know if his liberalism is his disease or just a symptom. Either way, he’s got other things going on at the same time. Your observation that he is severely lacking in knowledge of even 20th century history is right on. |
Rick, I lost nothing at all in this exchange. You defend the use of torture on no grounds. It is not useful, particularly in comparison to other techniques. It brings baggage that is just not worth the cost, and it is immoral. They are also illegal in this country. On what grounds do you defend their use? You have no argument Rick. Bookslinger, There are only a few issues I am passionate about. This happens to be one of them. Whether it is related to my father being abusive doesn’t matter. This is wrong for America, and certainly wrong for Mormons who profess to believe in Jesus Christ. Don’t attempt to diminish my words, for they are correct. |
Dan,
One Mormon or all Mormons? You can’t judge the whole culture by one political representative who does not in any way represent that culture. And the Prop 8 point you make is valid in a disjointed way in support of two of your pet issues, but at the same timelacks some serious connecting. Where the analogy lacks 1) The idea of torture is on a federal level, where SSM was being decided on a local level. I’m sure the Church could go full-bore into a legislative sponsorship of anti-torture ammendments, but it would be far out of character and possibly out of its influence. That said, I don’t think it will ever happen. You would do better to formulate civil and persuasive (as opposed to antagonistic) discussion on the topic and turn people one by one. |
I see while I was away you’ve gone and had a very interesting discussion on torture: its rightness or wrongness, its effectiveness or ineffectiveness. Both of these questions are peripherally related to the question I pose here, but not one that I took a position on or have anything to do with my post. Still, the questions are important ones, as the lively comments attest. Before I comment on torture in general, a point related to my post would be, if the best argument against torture is that we shouldn’t do it because it makes us unpopular abroad, that’s a pretty weak case. (Especially when the world is not exactly rife with sterling examples that surpass our own record.) It’s the law of the Junior High schoolyard, where popularity makes right and unpopularity makes wrong. Virtue decided by plebiscite is not virtue. That of course, it not Dan’s argument. He is in quadrant 4 of the torture rightness/effectiveness position: torture is neither morally justifiable nor effective at extracting information in practice. Note that it is possible to argue that torture is sometimes effective, but still always wrong (quadrant 2). President Obama has occasionally been in this camp, at least hypothetically. He said last month:
In the interview, amidst “bob and weave” moral evasions and changes of subject, he conceded that it may be harder to get information without resorting to torture, but it was worth not doing it anyway. (A more morally coherent case against resorting to torture even when it might save lives, can be found here.) It is also possible to argue that torture in certain circumstances might be morally acceptable, but that it is ineffective as a practical matter (quadrant 3). A final nuanced position, a blend of quadrants 1 and 2, is what I would call the traditional “consensus” position before all this got partisan and political. It held that torture was always wrong, but potentially effective, and therefore sometimes justified. The idea here was that the person might find it in his power (though illegal) to torture someone. In so doing, he risked punishment for his actions later, once his decision to torture was evaluated in the cold light of day. Thus torture would remain illegal, but in extraordinary circumstances authorities might choose to look the other way and not prosecute it. And here, the objective would be to leave what is and is not torture purposefully vague, so that anyone caught in this situation would think long and hard before doing it. A related position is that it should be illegal in general, but in special cases, and with prior permission from a court, be allowed. I guess this would look something like the process for obtaining FISA warrants today. This is Alan Dershowitz’s position, I believe. For you 24 afficionadoes, when Jack Bauer tortures, he does it within one of these two parameters. Sometimes he gets permission from his bosses, but more often, he acts on his own, trusting that the results he obtains and the great risk posed will cause the authorities to forgo punishment. But he knows, and understands, that he is risking prosecution, imprisonment, or public opprobium anytime he does so, and that he is going to be held accountable for his actions and their results. He ultimately has to assume responsibility for his actions. A question even more important than these, but all too often skipped over, as it has been (disappointingly) here, is how is torture defined, and who gets to define it? Some people are opposed to torture, but do not feel waterboarding is torture. This appears to be Dick Cheney’s position, so if you accept his definition of torture, he is either in Dan’s or President Obama’s quadrant. This position outrages some, who think it’s obvious that waterboarding is torture, and cast aspersions on any who doubt it. But high moral dudgeon (as we have learned so many times on the Prop 8 controversy), denouncing those who disagree with you as godless/unChristian sinners, does not constitute an argument, no matter how loudly it is shouted. Some say the courts should have final say on what is and is not torture, others (like Obama) say the Army Field Manual is what has final say. Still others suggest the UN, or the European Union’s human rights rulings. And a related point, is, what happens when the line deciding what is torture gets moved? What happens with those operating under the prior placement of the line? What should happen to those who conducted themselves according to where they believed, or where they were told, that line was? Some say that torture automatically shocks the conscience, so that those doing so cannot claim, any more successfully than Eichmann, that they were just following orders. What we should not pretend is that any way we decide is free of compromise. Anyone who fights evil will be marked by it in some way. War, even a just one, is morally tainted; it taints even those on the side of the “good guys”. In the Book of Mormon, which is full of war, when the “good guys” win, they never rejoice or have ticker tape parades, they lament their own wickedness which they believe forced them to defend themselves. After it’s over, they once again remind themselves to repent and remember, with gratitude, their dependence on God. On the other hand, the people of Ammon understood the price of pacifism, which is the risk that not enough will be willing to defend the good with force of arms, risking the possibility that evil will prevail. Neither choice, war or pacifism, is simple, free, or easy in the face of an implacable enemy. There are also some who do not feel those we have subjected to what is variously considered enhanced interrogation techniques or torture, present a serious enough threat to justify torture. They might not be opposed to torture in principle (like Senators Graham and Rockefeller), but at least at this point in 2009, they feel that these baddies we had weren’t bad enough to deserve the treatment they got. Just as there are some who don’t define EIT as torture, there are those who think torture should be allowed in extreme cases, but that at least these specific cases did not warrant it. So the question to explore with this position is when, and how, do you properly assess the level and urgency of risk presented. Well, hopefully I have at least advanced the discussion by mapping out the various positions and questions that too often go unsaid amidst the hurled ephithets. My final thought is no serious moral decision is costless or easy. To pretend otherwise cheapens the choice and devalues our agency. Here is an insightful discussion of torture by one of my favorite thinkers in the blogosphere, Richard Fernandez. |
Jeff,
How is this the “traditional” position? Sometimes justified? That’s not the language in the UN Convention Against Torture which Ronald Reagan signed as law for the United States. It is the Law of the Land that torture is NEVER justified. How can you claim that the “traditional consensus” is that there are some justifications for its use?
It is already illegal by the Geneva Conventions (Law of the Land), UN Convention on Torture (Law of the Land) and War Crimes Act (Law of the Land). How many more laws are needed to clarify this position?
It has already been defined, ratified, and codified into law, Jeff. Waterboarding is torture. We prosecuted Japanese soldiers during World War II for waterboarding our soldiers. Closer to present day, police officers in Texas were convicted for waterboarding in 1983. That’s even before the law was made even more clear with the UN Convention on Torture. Reagan signed that into law, I believe, in 1984.
For the United States of America, I go with what the Constitution says. The Constitution has two instances that clarify this point. One is the Eighth Amendment prohibiting cruel and unusual punishment. The other would be the article that indicates when a treaty, ratified by the Senate, becomes Law of the Land. There are two treaties that the United States ratified, which are now the Law of the Land for the United States of America. Those two are the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention on Torture. We are signatories to those treaties, and also they are both ratified by the Senate. According to the Constitution, they are the Law of the Land. Can I make it any clearer?
That is exactly correct.
I don’t know why you think it is only these two options. This sets up a straw man. The straw man is that if you are against torture, you must be a pacifist. But that’s really not the case at all. It’s not a matter of pacifism or violence. It is a matter of what is right. Torture is simply not right, not effective, and comes at too high a price for those small snippets of information you get, which you could get with far less costly techniques. |
I recently read a biography of Col Bud Day (“American Patriot”), a POW in the Hanoi Hilton and a pilot who recieved every combat medal available during the Vietnam war. The treatment he received at the hands of his captors was real torture, which has left him crippled for life. It made me sick to my stomach to see the mistreatment he suffered. The vast majority of POWs in his camp refused to give useful information under torture; he gave false confessions of his unit and commanders. On the other hand, there were men who broke relatively easily, and few of those who gave true information suffered anywhere near the level of torture as Col Day or most others. After their release, the men who resisted had and continue to have nothing but contempt for those who gave in so easily. Regarding the main line of conversation on this thread, recent history shows that torture will lead a man to give up information, whether it be true or not. But most men did not give up real information. They lied or simply made things up. It is also difficult to know ahead of time whether a particular individual will break under torture or will continue to resist. It does work sometimes–at least it did during Vietnam. But it is a very inefficient way to get information. To follow another part of the conversation, I believe that America’s enemies will continue to be America’s enemies regardless of whether we waterboard detainees or engage in life-threatening torture. The way we treat the detainees only serves to justify the hatred for the US that they already have. If I remember correctly, 9/11 happened well before the US started waterboarding anybody. |
Dan: I think your highly rigid views on this subject have made you unable to even see other points of view on this matter, never mind whether you disagree with them. Here I have earned your opprobrium merely for trying to describe these varying positions, even though I didn’t advocate any of them. For all you know, I agree with you. Even if you believe that some (all?) of the EITs practiced on apprehended terrorists constitute torture, the fact would remain that the Bush Administration did not invent torture in this country. It has been done many times by us, in times of war and peace, by military as well as civilian representatives of our government, at home and abroad, as well as by private parties. And in any of these cases, there is always prosecutorial discretion. An act may well be illegal, and yet still not be prosecuted. It may be illegal to drive 80mph, but if you are driving your pregnant wife to the hospital, the officer may not write you a ticket even if you are caught. This is how torture can be illegal, and yet not be prosecuted (or whatever the analogue to prosecution is in that circumstance). The party may well be a torturer, but he gets off scot free. If the Constitution were as clear as you say, then there would have been no need for the OLC memos in the first place. “Cruel and unusual punishment,” for instance, has been variously interpreted over the years. Interestingly, if you compare the 1984 UN Convention Against Torture with the relevant statues in federal code (Section 2340 of the US Federal Code and the War Crimes Act of 1996) you will see that the Senate made some slight but highly significant changes. For instance, “mental suffering” is defined much more narrowly in the US statues; they only banned four types of mental suffering, defined as “drug injection, death threats, threats against another, and extreme physical pain.” This was done to deliberately exclude a variety of techniques (including waterboarding) that had been in longstanding use by the CIA. The Reagan Administration had reservations on the UN Convention for this very reason, which the Clinton Administration then took into account when the treaty was ratified. Bush’s Military Commissions Act of 2006 used the same standard. You can say this is wrong, but to claim it is self-evidently illegal is a stretch. If anything, it probably was and is legal, since the statute was enacted with language specifically intended to allow it. (Again, I hasten to add, this may still mean it was a bad idea, and wrong. But for the moment we are talking about legalities and showing it is not as clear-cut as Dan claims.) This is one of the frustrating aspects of this Kabuki theatre we have with our pusillanimous Congress. It would be amusing if it were not so serious. They keep asking various individuals up for Senate confirmation if waterboarding constitutes torture. The questioner should be the one answering, in fact. I wish, for once, that Mikasey, Holder, or Blair had just replied, “You tell me. It’s up the the legislature to define and proscribe the scope of executive action. There is considerable debate on this question that you guys up here on the Hill could quickly and easily resolve for us.” If Congress wanted to, they could eliminate the ambiguity, and waterboarding, in one stroke. That they have not even tried to do so, and instead keep directing the attention and blame everywhere but on them, tells you all you need to know about the moral seriousness of Pelosi, Reid & Co. The problem with the Geneva Conventions is easier. This is because many people honestly believed they did not apply. The Geneva Convention, as explained in Common Article 2, governs conduct between High Contracting Parties or parties agreeing to be bound thereto. The whole point of the Geneva Conventions was supposed to be about reciprocity–you treated your enemies’ soldiers well in the hopes that they would treat your soldiers well. Non-soldiers, and non-signatories, were specifically excluded from the Conventions. This was the motivation for signing the Conventions, and then adhering to certain conventions of combat, like wearing a uniform with a distinct insignia. (This is where the term “unlawful combatant” comes in.) (And of course, if the terrorists were really Prisoners of War, the only thing we would have been allowed to ask them was name, rank, and serial number.) Since Al Qaeda is not a High Contracting Party, nor has it agreed to them, the only way the Supreme Court could arrive at their ruling in Boumedine was through taking the highly novel position that the Global War on Terror was not international in character, thus binding the United States to the provisions of Common Article 3 (basically making the US one of the parties in an internal civil war in both Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere). Even if you salute this ruling, you have to concede that this is not an immediately obvious way to construe our conflict, certainly not one that would have occurred to CIA personnel investigating plots being planned in Afghanistan and Pakistan but set for launch out of Europe and America. To my uneducated, non-lawyer mind, it would seem to me that for this to apply, the Twin Towers would have had to have been located in Kandahar rather than New York City. But what do I know? The poles of pacifism and war are not straw men, and as you note, disavowing the use of torture does not make one a pacifist. I did not say that it did. The point is that each choice has a cost; war and pacifism are the extremes along a continuum. Choosing to be a party to conflict but forswear certain tactics (like torture) is somewhere along that continuum. Few, if any motivated adversaries will willingly tell what they know. In a moment of grave, but vague and uncertain risk, with similarly vague time pressures, defining what our responsibilities are to try to obtain that information in the hopes of saving lives, and to balance that against our need to maintain our human decency, is not simple, and no decision is free of risk or cost. It does no one any favors to pretend otherwise. Politicians love to promise something for nothing, but we should know better. |
Jeff,
Indeed. Why don’t you consider the question of why exactly they needed the OLC memos. Let’s delve into that. Did the CIA wait to employ torture until AFTER they received approval by the OLC? If you look at the memos and the timeline of events, they did NOT. The CIA used these illegal techniques as ordered by the Vice President WITHOUT legal cover. Upon having some of their detainees actually die during the process, the CIA realized they better get their asses covered, so they got the OLC (run by Jay Bybee at the time), to rubber stamp their program and muddy what was once fairly clear waters. Before 2002, did any American under orders from their superiors waterboard anyone? Nope. Because it was illegal. It was against the law of the land. Until Dick Cheney came around and in secret subverted the rule of law. How can anyone defend this stuff?
But don’t you see, Jeff, these techniques violate even those standards! Remember, Bybee’s memo of August 2002 stated that torture only meant essentially “organ failure.” That memo was strongly criticized and then revoked when it went public. Why did Bybee try to restrict the definition of torture to “organ failure?” Because he knew that anything less than that constituted “extreme physical pain.” And he knew very well that the CIA violated those standards. Secondly, the techniques themselves on their own may not constitute torture for those who believe in the stricter narrower definition. For example, sleep deprivation is fairly harmless by itself. If you don’t sleep for several days straight, you’re mind might have issues, but one good night’s sleep and you’re back on your feet. But if you COMBINE sleep deprivation with cold water dowsing, shackling hands above the head, head beatings, sensory deprivation and finally waterboarding, there is NO DOUBT you’ve violated not just the spirit of the law, but the letter of the law. You’ve induced severe mental and physical suffering and pain upon the detainee that are in violation of the Constitution’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment. This is why Bybee tried to say that torture equaled “organ failure”—like say, the heart. I guess, though, by the time the detainee is dead, you’ve already tortured him, and violated the law. By the way, about 100 detainees have died in our prisons due to the use of torture. Are you still willing to tell me those techniques don’t violate the Law of the Land?
You’d think that is the case but here I am thinking the law was quite clear already! Jeez!
Do you really think that just because they were not regular soldiers gave us the justification to abuse them? Do you really think that? We’re a sick nation if we only need an excuse like this to go around abusing and torturing other people. Just because they are not regular army or militia does NOT justify abusing them! It does not justify taking the gloves off on them. In fact, by us doing this, by us “taking the gloves off” when allowed, we show the world we really don’t believe in the human rights principles we constantly criticize other nations for lacking. Do you realize how much more dangerous we make the world for us? Other nations see that we easily disregard our own moral standards. They will be less hesitant to show us respect.
If you want to save lives, don’t torture your enemies. Be the good guy, not the bad. The nicer you are to them (and nice doesn’t mean fluffy), the more they will be willing to let down their guards and return the favor. Remember, there is no ticking-time-bomb scenario in real life. You will never have someone in custody who has information regarding a bomb about to go off in Times Square. |
Dan, I have heard commentary that Army interragators totally oppose Cheney backing pro torture policies. They do indeed enter a different methods as to gain information following US Army Field Manual as a guided policy. One of the first tactics they use is to establish rapore with the prisoner. |
B Tippetts, That is correct. Don’t forget also that the FBI withdrew itself from interrogations when the CIA was ordered to take the gloves off. The CIA didn’t have trained interrogators. America’s trained interrogators work for the FBI, not for the CIA. The sole purpose of shifting interrogations to the CIA was because the CIA worked in secret, whereas there are safeguards in place within the FBI so interrogators don’t cross the line into torture. The CIA had no such safeguards. The CIA also had little oversight, so if any abuse occurred, it could be hidden fairly well (for example, the CIA could destroy tapes that recorded interrogations that violated the law). The CIA is truly the worst creation America has ever founded. It would be in the best interest of the United States to put this pathetic organization out of its misery. Close shop. They are not worth the money. |
“The CIA is truly the worst creation America has ever founded.” Blah, blah, blah. |
OK, this has turned into the torture blog, and I am going to put in my two cents. The purpose of torture is not to obtain information. The purpose of torture is not to obtain false confessions. These are merely results, not purposes. The purpose of torture is torture: to dominate, punish, humiliate, degrade and dehumanize the enemy. If correct information is obtained, the purpose of that information is to further taunt the enemy: see how you have betrayed your principles. If a false confession is obtained, the purpose is to throw that confession in the face of his superiors: look at what we made your soldiers say about you. This is why torture is immoral. It springs from sadism, it feeds on fear, it seeks to debase and debilitate your opponent, and comfort you in your superior, “dominant” status. It seeks to dehumanize the enemy until they are not more than the subject of a scientific experiment in pain. Torture began to be used after standard techniques had already begun to yield valuable information. And the reaction to torture was to staunch that flow of information. Why did it continue to be used? Look at the report of the testimony FBI interrogator Ali Soufan gave before congress: “Soufan said his own interrogations of captured al Qaeda suspect Abu Zubaydah, using proven methods of psychological manipulation, had within one hour yielded the identity of the Sept. 11 mastermind, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Until then, he said, “we had no idea of KSM’s role in 9/11 or his importance in the al Qaeda leadership structure.” “Within a few more hours of questioning, Soufan said, he and other interrogators elicited information about alleged “dirty bomber” Jose Padilla.” “But Soufan said he was pulled off the interrogation within a few days, to be replaced by contractors with no expertise in al Qaeda. They soon introduced nudity and sleep deprivation, loud noise and temperature manipulation and confinement in a small box. Zubaydah stopped talking, Soufan said.” If Zubaydah was giving it up without being tortured, why did the “outside contractors” begin using harsher techniques? One could argue impatience. One could argue that it was all they knew, and when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Or you could argue that they were sadistic and cowardly, they had their enemy in their power, and they were determined to punish, humiliate, and “break” him. In Bryce Lefever’s infamous NPR interview (with which I have some editing issues as well, by the way) he states his motivation: “America’s house was broken into on 9/11 and someone had to raise their hand to stop it.” In other words, his motivation was a sense of violation, he had to do something, and SERE was what he knew. Notice that Lefever himself never argues in his defense that torture, or even “harsh interrogation” is ethical. He does imply that in some cases of extreme distress, ethics may have to be thrown out the window. http://www.drlefever.com/index.html As you know, the purpose of the SERE training for US soldiers was to prepare them to resist torture techniques. But the lesson that came out of SERE was actually far different, and far more sobering. “You know, the tough nut to crack, if you keep him awake for a week, you torture him, you tie his arms behind him, you have him on the ground — anyone can be brought beyond their ability to resist,” (Lefever) Anybody. Me. You. Eventually, there is a limit. If our torturer is careful not to let us die, if he can keep his emotions in check enough not to kill us, eventually, we will break. We are only human. Interesting. |
What Matthew has written is a better attempt at what I was trying to say, I believe. I have never said it was ethical. I have never said it should be done whether it be ethical or not, both of which Dan has accused me of. We all have our breaking point or vunerability to certain techniques, therefore torture does work. Its definition and whether those or slightly less distressing techniques should be used is a different matter. And since progressives like to change definitions of terms with the phase of the moon, the gray areas are even more gray and have a tendency to vary in hue. |
What are you saying Rick? Come straight please. Are you for the use of torture or not? If you are against its use, why the defense of its use? What stake do you have in this fight, Rick? |
I’m against torture. I’m in favor of enhanced interrogation. |
Jota, You’re living a contradiction then. Enhanced interrogation IS torture. Period. End of story. Bye Bye. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfYov5o5_2s&feature=player_embedded |
Dan, |
Rick and Dan, Please this is a great learnng experience so let us not get personal and stick with the facts. Torture can work to obtain information but it is in most cases not reliable. This is why US military and FBI do not use it. However there has been several deaths and abused enemy non conbatments under US custody which mostly involves with US military. I started a page about this subject on my web site but it is not up dated. http://www.mormonpeaceproject.org. Jota. Please present an authorative source which defines enhanced interrogations. |
The CIA is truly the worst creation America has ever founded. It would be in the best interest of the United States to put this pathetic organization out of its misery. Close shop. They are not worth the money. Nah, it doesn’t even come to the standard of atrocity that you find here: http://mopupduty.com/index.php/worst-uniforms-chicago-white-sox-shorts-1976/ |
Rick, Not to keep nitpicking this point, but no, they don’t work. Or if they do, you have failed to show evidence. The burden of proof is on you. You claim they work. Prove it. But I’m glad to see you don’t think we should have used them or ever use them again. At least that’s what I get. You just keep siding with the defense of their use, which makes it very hard to judge that you are against them. |
Ugh. Let’s stop feeding the troll(s). |
B Tippets: Please this is a great learnng experience so let us not get personal and stick with the facts. Torture can work to obtain information but it is in most cases not reliable. B Tippetts: This is why US military and FBI do not use it. However there has been several deaths and abused enemy non conbatments under US custody which mostly involves with US military. I started a page about this subject on my web site but it is not up dated. http://www.mormonpeaceproject.org. – |
Dan and Matthew, It has been reported by the Bush Administration that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed wss water boarded 138 times then he broke and provided intel that prevented another attack on the US . Obama will not provided information yes or no that this is the case. Can either one you provide facts about this with sources? This goes to the basis of Cheney’s argument that such practices makes us safe. My question does not imply I favor these procedures. |
B Tippets, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times (not 138), all in March 2003 (yes, the same month we invaded Iraq). He did not provide intel that prevented another attack on the US. Supporters of torture claim that KSM provided the intel that disrupted the Library Tower plot, which was to blow up the Library Tower in Los Angeles. The problem that torture supporters have with this claim is that the plot to blow up the Library Tower was foiled in February 2002. KSM was not captured by the Pakistanis until March 2003. Yes, one year later. To claim that under torture he provided the intel to thwart a plot that was thwarted one year earlier is just plain stupid, and of course false. Rick,
Rick, I’ve not claimed that torture never works, because obviously it gets people to say whatever is on their mind, whatever they think will get the torture to stop. When I say torture doesn’t “work” is in providing accurate actionable intelligence. At this, torture simply does not work. How can you claim it works when for the most part what you get out of a tortured detainee is babble? How does the interrogator who knows little about his enemy discern what is accurate and what is not? Verify? How? With the torture done on other detainees? If you know little about your enemy, how do you verify what, of the babble coming out of the suffering detainee, is accurate and what is not? YOU CAN’T! And that is why torture doesn’t work. I mean, really, it isn’t that hard to figure this stuff out. |
Dan, Please give sources about your analysis of Kahlid providing intelligence that was not useful to US authorities. Why won’t Obama officials present the facts of what Kahlid provided? I am not questioning your anlaysis but whould like some references. It seems you have done a lot of research about this. |
Inside 9/11 Mastermind and Interrogation http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/washington/22ksm.html?_r=1 |
This quote is from unknown author in Wikipedia but references are listed below. Did he divulged this information right after water boarding or confessed later while not under duress? Also I would think such intel can be obtain with out torture. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times while being interrogated by the CIA, and is the person who has survived the most waterboarding sessions.[1] According to the Bush administration, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed divulged information of tremendous value during his detention. He is said to have helped point the way to the capture of Riduan Isamuddin (AKA Hambali), the Indonesian terrorist responsible for the 2002 bombings of night clubs in Bali. According to the Bush administration, he also provided information on an Al Qaeda leader in England.[2] (1)Weaver, Matthew (April 20, 2009). “CIA waterboarded al-Qaida suspects 266 times”. The Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/20/waterboarding-alqaida-khalid-sheikh-mohammed. Retrieved on April 20, 2009. (2) Mayer, Jane (August 13, 2007). “The Black Sites”. The New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/13/070813fa_fact_mayer. Retrieved on April 20, 2009. |
It’s a horrifying torture to read a comment thread where Dan is arguing about torture. It makes me feel such intense desperation to sleep … |
B Tippets, From the article in the Guardian:
1. Don’t believe a word Michael Hayden says. 2. Note that he says “he believed” after “unspecified techniques” were used Zubaydah talked. He doesn’t actually say he “knows” that after “unspecified techniques” were used, Zubaydah talked. From Jane Mayer’s piece:
Knowing he was waterboarded 183 times in one month, would you actually believe this kind of statement? Ms. Mayer continues:
Mrs. Pearl was smarter than the average bear and could smell a false confession. Note that Gonzales could not provide corroborating evidence. How exactly do we know KSM was the one to kill Daniel Pearl? We don’t. It was provided through torture. Ms. Mayer continues to her point:
Indeed. She hit it on the mark. Jane Mayer is quite good. She actually does her research. For example:
As for the earlier piece from the Times on the interrogator who talked with KSM, note this paragraph:
and
Gee, imagine that, the CIA “nearly devoid of expertise in detention and interrogation” would be at the focal point of detention and interrogation of the most important war we are supposedly fighting? Does that make ANY SENSE to anyone? |
Good research Dan. Even if KSM revealed information which led to the capture of another terrorist operative, does not justify torture. There is more humane methods to obtian similiar intel. What is needed is a congressional mandated truth commission and publish all the facts about this whole torture regime from George Bush and Co. which also involved field operatives. There also should be a congressional mandated independent prosecutor and issue indictments where warranted. |
Dan (#83), Enhanced interrogation, as practiced by the CIA, as set forth in the OLC memos, is not “torture” as defined in the federal criminal statutes. That’s why no one who actually performed enhanced interrogation can never be prosecuted, because what they did is not a crime. You may argue it is immoral. You may argue it is wrong. Fine, you can have that opinion, but it is not “torture.” |
I meant “ever” not “never.” Please forgive the double negative. |
Jota, Actually it is torture as defined in the federal criminal statutes. Don’t listen to what Jay Bybee wrote. He is wrong. He did not do his job as an “independent” analyst of the law, as he was supposed to. If he had done so, he would have told the CIA that the enhanced interrogation techniques violated the Law of the Land, PARTICULARLY if used in combination! Sadly, you are right. These people who ordered the CIA to employ these tactics, and the CIA “interrogators” who employed these tactics will not actually be prosecuted under the law. Thus frustrating the rule of law and allowing future incidents of lawbreaking to occur, knowing full well they would be protected from being prosecuted for violating the law. |
Dan, I respectfully disagree. While the memos from the OLC that followed the Bybee memo stated that they couldn’t be as confident as the Bybee memo that waterboarding was “legal” they also couldn’t say that it was criminal. |
For those interested in information from a different perspective than “The Guardian” http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124078817411057411.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002818.html |
Dan, Just to be clear, when I refer to waterboarding not being torture, I am limiting it to the practice of waterboarding as set forth in the OLC memos. I certainly agree that waterboarding can be used as criminal torture if the elements of criminal torture are fulfilled. My point is that the elements were not fulfilled if it was performed only as set forth in the OLC memos. Just like shooting and killing someone with a gun isn’t always “murder.” Waterboarding isn’t always “torture.” In the end, I’m sure we’ll have to agree to disagree as neither of us will convince the other. We should probably stop hijacking Jeff’s original post. On that note – Jeff, I agree that if you take out leadership, you weaken the organization even if you’re adding soldiers but I also agree that terrorism may be unique in that you can have small cells do a lot of damage. |
Jota, You don’t have to look at the OLC memos post-Bybee. Just look at the case law pre-Bybee! The law was quite clear on the subject, Jota.
Let’s just say that Bybee’s OLC memos were within the law, just for this hypothetical. The CIA violated what Bybee said was safe! They waterboarded KSM 183 times in one month! That is an average of 6 times a day! That is way beyond what was proscribed by Bybee, (which of course also went way beyond what was proscribed by the law). There’s very little evidence that what the CIA employed did not constitute torture. Particularly when they combined the techniques. The whole point was to destroy the mind of the individual they tortured. That would be torture if someone does it to an American. But I guess Americans aren’t too bothered if they are done to others.
That’s not a good comparison. The difference between killing someone justifiably, and murdering someone is whether or not that person is a threat to you. If someone is pointing a gun at you, you are justified to take him out first. If that person has lowered their gun and dropped it on the floor, you are no longer justified to take him out. That’s the difference between a justified killing and murder. Waterboarding is wholly different. The individual who you wish to waterboard is in your custody, in your hands. He is not a threat to you. The moment you apply waterboarding to him, you have violated the law. Now, where there may not be an issue is like the Mancow incident, the conservative radio host who got waterboarded in an attempt to prove waterboarding was not torture. He was surrounded by friends and he could opt out at any time he wanted to. He chose out of his own free will to end the torture at 6 seconds. KSM never got that option. I’ll stop here on this post. I’ve said enough. But I won’t be silent on this issue until America gets back to its normal standards, disavows torture, prosecutes those who violated the law, and ends any doubt about where it stands on torture. |
Dan, if you were running America, we’d all be Muslims about now. Or dead. I sure would be, because no way am I going to wear those things and keep my mouth shut. They want you dead, don’t you get it? |
anne, WHAT?!?!?! You need to get out of Utah! 1. I wouldn’t be able to run America. I wasn’t born here. :) |
Dan, The “183 times” has been refuted. Look it up. |
Jota, Some lawyer legal opinion in the Justice Dept does not make law. Water boarding in not simulated drowning. It is drowning. You have not provided any legal documentation to support your claim that water boarding in not torture. Anne, It is increditable that when Dan comes in the defense of the Constitution, international and domestic , |
Jota, What do you mean refuted? It was in an official Bradbury Memo. Read it yourself. It is near the bottom. It states, interestingly, that the guidelines were clear that waterboarding may only be applied five times in a 30 day period, but that KSM was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003. Now, you say it is refuted? Where’s your proof? |
B Tippets – read the torture statute. |
Jota refuses to offer actual evidence because he knows there is none. |
Dan, #110 – I’d already read the Bradbury Memo. It was enlightening. #105 – Federal precedent pre-Bybee did not support the conclusion that under federal law the actions of the CIA (even with respect to waterboarding, let alone the rest of the enhanced interrogation techniques) constituted criminal “torture” under the federal statutes. |
Again no evidence. Show it, Jota. |
I just told you there was no federal precedent. How, exactly, would you like me to prove the negative? You could try to prove that there was federal precedent. |
Jota! I already did. US Department of Justice prosecutes a Texas Sheriff for waterboarding in 1983. The United States prosecutes and executes Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American POWs. There was precedent. |
The Texas case was not under the statute/convention at issue in the OLC memos. The elements for criminal torture were not met by the CIA interrogation techniques. Strike one. No Japanese soldier was convicted and executed FOR waterboarding. They may have been convicted for waterboarding and amputation, or waterboarding and execution, or waterboarding and pulling fingernails out, but none were prosecuted and convicted FOR only waterboarding alone. In addition, the waterboarding performed by the Japanese was far in excess of what was performed during enhanced interrogation by the CIA. Strike 2 As I said before, it is not my position that waterboarding is never torture. It is my position that enhanced interrogation as described in the OLC memos is not torture under the federal statutes governing the action. We’re not going to convince each other. |
Jota,
What do you base that on? Waterboarding is waterboarding is waterboarding. That Bybee chose to be negligent and NOT include this relevant case where the United States prosecuted Americans for the use of waterboarding doesn’t change the fact that it is quite relevant. As to your second point, of course they were convicted and executed for waterboarding. Waterboarding doesn’t have to be separate from other techniques to be judged torture or not. On its own it is torture. In combination with other techniques it is definitely torture. The CIA didn’t just waterboard KSM and Zubaydah. They combined waterboarding with sleep deprivation, cold water dowsing, shackling hands above the head, and head beatings. Only two of those, on their own would be considered torture, but combine all together, and that’s EXACTLY what you get. Torture. Violation of American law. The OLC memos did their job of muddying otherwise clear waters. Jay Bybee ought to be ashamed of himself. |
I asked for federal precedent showing that the actions of the CIA were a violation of the federal criminal statutes. You have not provided it because you can’t. What the Japanese did bears no relation to the CIA’s enhanced interrogation. You’re losing credibility by taking that position. |
Federal precedent? You mean the fact that the Department of Justice of the Federal Government prosecuting sheriffs in Texas is NOT federal precedent? Sorry Jota, but all the evidence is against your position with regard to the illegality of waterboarding. Why do you defend it? Why do you defend torture? |
No, it’s not. Send me a copy of the court of appeals case that contradicts the elements set forth in the OLC memo used to interpret the actions taken by the CIA. That might convince me. A single criminal prosecution does not set precedent. Additionally, I’ve seen conflicting reports that this was actually a state prosecution, not a federal prosecution. I don’t know the jurisdiction, I just know that it was prosecuted before the convention on torture was adopted. |
Jota, Are you referring to this legal opinion about a statute by Yoo that water boarding is not torture? If so I am interested about your analysis on Yoo’s reasoning. Dan, What say you about this? |
Jota, You are too taken in to trusting that someone that works for the OLC is actually independent and whose opinion must be accepted without question. Disregard what any OLC lawyers said under Bush, dude. The problem is that they were not independent, but lackeys of the White House, ordered to muddy the clear waters on torture. Clearly they got a hold of you and it seems impossible for you to accept that they could possibly be wrong. B Tippetts, It doesn’t matter where he got his reasoning from. Yoo also said it is within the power of the president to order someone to crush the testicles of a child of a detainee without that being a violation of the law. Do you really think this man should be trusted to define torture? Besides which, that memo, the infamous Bybee Memo of August 2002 was rescinded when it went public and disavowed by the Justice Department. It seems saner heads realized the legal rationale was all screwed up. |
Jota, it would be better for you to listen to Colin Powell over John Yoo. Remember John Yoo never served in the military. Colin Powell did. He understood quite well what the results would be of the United States reneging the Geneva Conventions. Dick Cheney never served in the military. George W. Bush only served in the National Guard and ensured he would get out of serving in Vietnam. |
Really? You guys are still at it? How futile. |
Indeed Dan. Yoo and Bybee reasoning are the only sources where water boarding should be considered legal, where upon it was rescinded by the Justice Department. There is no statute authorizing this practice but an executive order by Bush. Let us get all the facts out through a truth commission along with criminal investigations. We should know what correspondents took place from the White House to OLC and the Attorney General to come up with Bybee and Yoo memo. The sad part of this whole affair is LDS members such as Bybee . Mitchell and Jenssen help led the charge for torture. That Hatch and Bennent would not vote for legislation to make US Army Field Manual on interrogations the law of the land. Some of the comments on this thread implying support for torture or being apologist for such practices is distressing. Bybee should resign from the Bench and Mitchell and Jenssen should be prosecuted just to name a few. |
Chris, Sorry you are not enlightened. Is it futile to stand up to principles of this country and the Constitution: that we are nation of laws not of unrighteous edicts, that we should always take the higher grouund and not become an evil which degrades this country? Striving for justice is never futile. Those who are silent are part of the problem. |
Colin Powell is not a lawyer. I’m talking about legal analysis. I would certainly consider his judgment with regard to effectivness or morality, but not criminal legality. I’ve had lunch with John Yoo. He’s a very bright guy. I trust John Yoo’s legal judgment over Powell’s any day. I also trust my own legal analysis. I’ve looked at the cases cited in the OLC memos. I’ve read the law. That’s why you can’t provide federal precedent contradicting the position that the actions taken by the CIA satisfy the elements of criminal “torture.” |
I meant “don’t” satisfy the elements of criminal torture. |
B, Go the round over and over (and over and over) with two other people on a blog does not count as “striving for justice.” I actually agree with you on the issue, though I tend to prefer principles of morality and social justice. I am not sure if American principles or principles of the Constitution really are going to bring us there. Bybee and Yoo are wrong. No kidding. That some right wingers disagree is not suprise. That many of these right-wingers are Mormons should not be a surprise either. For many people, there rhetorical committment to the Constitution is not a matter of principle but a matter of nationalism. Disturbing indeed. |
Sorry for the typos, had a three year old jumping on me. |
That Yoo is brilliant and that Powell has an honorable record of service does not make either of their arguments correct. If Cheney had served in the military would his argument somehow have more merit? I do not think so. Yoo might be bright, but many of bright law profs would disagree with his analysis. |
Jota,
Dude, he thinks the president can order that the testicles of YOUR CHILDREN be crushed and the president would still be within the law! He is not a bright guy. |
B, See, we are now talking about balls. |
Chris H. Through discussion one picks up new information in trying to understand this issue. Because of personal matters I am going through right now it is distracting me to go public about this issue. Check out my web site http://www.mormonpeaceproject.org. However there are many people on this blog who very articulate and should make their views known beyond this blog whether they express conservative or liberal perspectives. |
B, |
Right on. Daily Kos and Huffington Post blog is a fine example of deliberative democracy. Demand for Justice. http://blog.olemisslife.com/2009/05/28/the-trouble-with-torture/ |
See, no need to torture, just give them sugar free cookies and they’ll talk. Silly Americans. |
Yeah, I hear Fox News is good for that, too. And North Korea. |
Horray for Daily Kos who raised funds for the Alternative Commencement to Dick Cheney speaking on the BYU campus. Good democracy in action. |
Question: So is sending this signal that we’re not going to use these kind of techniques anymore, what kind of impact does this have on people who do us harm in the field that you operate in? Gen. Petraeus: Well, actually what I would ask is, “Does that not take away from our enemies a tool which again have beaten us around the head and shoulders in the court of public opinion?” When we have taken steps that have violated the Geneva Conventions we rightly have been criticized, so as we move forward I think it’s important to again live our values, to live the agreements that we have made in the international justice arena and to practice those. |
Danithew: #96, best comment :) Dan, I wouldn’t commit suicide, silly, they’d kill me for being too mouthy. And you’re crazy if you think they only want Americans who don’t like them dead, they’d kill the ones who apologize for them just as quickly. They hate you just as much as they hate me. Maybe even more, because you are being so nice and understanding. I’m thinking all that torture of mohammed sheik what ever guy wasn’t wasted. It was sort of like smacking him around for all the bad things he did. If somebody came to me and said they were going to make me very uncomfortable to get information about American security or generals or whatever stuff like that, I’d say, “let’s save us all some time and trouble” and totally spill my guts. But if they said, “we’re going to torture the hell out of you till you give up where your kid is hiding” I’d say, “take your best shot, because I will never tell that.” I honestly worry about being tortured all the time. |
Veteran U.S. Interrogator Matthew Alexander (Conducted 300 interrogations, supervised 1000 during the 2nd Iraq war): “…we heard day in and day out, foreign fighters who had been captured, state that the number one reason they had come to fight in Iraq was because of torture and abuse. What had happened in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.” “We were basically handling Al-quaeda their best recruitment tool.” One of al-Quaeda’s goals is to prove that we’re hypocrites.” “We’re playing right into al-Quaeda’s hands.” |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaYkOuaEsUA The above URL has the Petraeus quote in comment 140 at around the 3 minute mark. |
The problem with their logic, djinn, is that they are far more guilty of torture and abuse—of their own people (think women)—than anyone in the US ever will be. Who are the real hypocrites? Nobody answered my question about what Al Queda has done to the US troops they’ve captured. We just hear they’re MIA or found dead, but the government hasn’t said much about that. I suspect waterboarding would be mild compared to what they consider torture. Dan’s compassionate liberal rhetoric plays right into their hands. They respect strength; they use compassion against us. |
Russ Feingold and Carl Levin have both seen the documents that Cheney says support the notion that toture got us actionable intelligence, or something. Feingold says: “Nothing I have seen – including the two documents to which former Vice President Cheney has repeatedly referred – indicates that the torture techniques authorized by the last administration were necessary, or that they were the best way to get information out of detainees. The former vice president is misleading the American people when he says otherwise.” Levin says: “But those classified documents say nothing about numbers of lives saved, nor do the documents connect acquisition of valuable intelligence to the use of abusive techniques.” That is, they say that Cheney’s lying. (I found these quotes on Marcy Wheeler’s amazing site emptywheel.firedoglake.com.) |
annegb, listen to the Matthew Alexander link at 142. Short version: no we are not playing into their hands by keeping to the rules of the Geneva Convention. We are playing into their hands most effectively when we torture, because then we become an enemy worth killing. I would like to think of us as the good guys. Good guys don’t torture, no matter what the enemy is doing. If you do a little background reading, you’ll find that no one who actually needs information tortures. Torture is used to extract false confessions, as, in fact the Bush administration attemped to do when they tortured Khalid Sheik Mohammed 183 times to get him to admit a non-existant link between al-Quaeda and Iraq. Here’s how a master interrogator does it. “Hanns Scharff was primarily an American 8th and 9th Air Force Fighter pilot interrogator. He was considered the best of the interrogators at Dulag Luft. [A Prisoner of war camp in Nazi Germany.] He gained the reputation of magically getting all the answers he needed from the prisoners of war, often with the prisoners never realizing that their words, small talk or otherwise, were important pieces of the mosaic. It is said he always treated his prisoners with respect and dignity and by using psychic not physical techniques, he was able to make them drop their guard and converse with him even though they were conditioned to remain silent. One POW commented that “Hanns could probably get a confession of infidelity from a nun.” Hanns personally stepped in to search for information that saved the lives of six US POWs when the SS wanted to execute them. Many acts of kindness by Scharff to sick and dying American POWs are documented. He would regularly visit some of the more seriously ill POWs and arrange to make their accommodations more humane. At one time the Luftwaffe was investigating him. After the war, he was invited by the USAF to make speeches about his methods to military audiences in the US and he eventually moved to the United States. General Jimmy Doolittle was one of the first to extend the hand of friendship to Hanns after the war, inviting him to a luncheon where they compared notes. Later he was invited to the home of Col. Hub Zemke who thereafter would send Hanns what he called a “Red Cross Parcel” every Christmas. And 38 years after he was Hanns “guest” at Dulag Luft – Oberursel, Col. Francis “Gabby” Gabreski was a guest of honor at Hanns 75th birthday party. In the United States Scharff worked as a mosaic artist. His works are on display in Cinderella’s castle at Disney World.” http://www.merkki.com/new_page_2.htm Hanns Scharff got all the information and more that he needed from the American POWs by being nice to them. |
Yeah, that works for me, too. I think there’s a world of difference between honoring the Geneva Convention and rocking them to sleep, though. |
Getting back to the original post, do we think that adding more torturers to the mix can extract more or less information from terrorists? Or do we just need more effective project managemers for our torturers? |
We need more effective managers how to use non torture techniques to extract actionable intel. US Army is way in front of curve using such techniques. |
I think our military should use torture if they think it’s beneficial, but just lie about it, and deny that they torture people. You know, like all government have always done. There are things about warfare and national security that just should not be public knowledge. You probably don’t want to know how sausage and hotdogs are made either. If 18 and 19 year olds really knew ahead of time what was in store for them on the battlefield and in the jungles, the vast majority of them would never enlist or submit to being drafted. Those who RE-enlist often do it for this reason: “Man, war is so horrible, I don’t want some greenie to have to endure that. I’ve been through it, survived and learned a litle how to handle it. Many guys can’t.” Such guys sometimes feel permanently “scarred”, and that by re-enlisting and going back, they’re “saving” some green-horn from having to go through the horror. I’m not saying that’s always the case, but sometimes it is. It’s the same reason why missionaries are not supposed to write home about the bad things on their missions. Our SP tells departing missionaries to write the bad things to him, and the good things to their parents. If younger brothers and younger friends knew how bad some of the conditions were, not just local living conditions and the local people, but the shenanigans done by other missionaries, we’d probably see a reduction of the missionary force by at least one third. To quote that one paper-towel commerical “Life is messy.” |
Well, then, we’re all set, Bookslinger, because the Military, across the board, thinks its a very bad idea indeed. |
Sorry, “It’s” referring to torture–a Very Bad Idea. For proof, see what Gen. Petraeus says, above. |
Many High Bush Officials Violated Anti-Torture Laws Report released December 11, 2008, by the Senate Armed Services Committee charged that top Bush officials, including former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, “bore major responsibility” for the abuses committed by U.S. interrogators in military detention centers, according to The New York Times. The Report that was issued by Senators Carl Levin(D-Mich.) and John McCain(R-Ariz.) is the result of an 18-month inquiry. For the record, this reporter published the following article 28 months ago—before the Senate inquiry was launched—and which predicted the same general conclusions as Sens. Levin and McCain in their new report, most of which remains “classified.” Following is my article of September, 2006, based on information freely available to anyone with eyes and a concern for rudimentary justice. Thanks to the several Internet sites that published it at that time. Is there any reason why the individuals named here should not be prosecuted to the full extent of the law? At least a score of high Bush Administration officials authorized, and hundreds of U.S. military and other government employees committed, crimes involving the torture of prisoners captured in the Middle East, published reports and legal documents indicate. Indeed, any impartial probe of the widespread abuse of prisoners in U.S. custody could go well beyond the handful of prison guards who have been arrested and tried to date. The list would include top White House officials who designed the torture policies and Pentagon flag officers who executed them. It would include CIA officials and their contract pilots and immigration personnel involved in abducting suspects to be tortured. It would include doctors, nurses, and paramedics who abetted interrogators in torture. And civilian contractors of the Department of Defense(DOD) who tortured, as well as foreign officials who turned suspects over to U.S. authorities for torture. In his May 8, 2004, radio address, President Bush deplored “shocking conduct in Iraqi prisons by a small number of American servicemen and women.” But he added, “We will learn the facts, the extent of the abuse, and the identities of those involved. They will answer for their actions.” As that´s a very good idea, let´s begin, starting at the top. President Bush himself bears primary responsibility for torture for his arbitrary February 8, 2002, suspension of the Geneva Conventions that protect prisoners. This action set the tone for the prison scandals that shocked the conscience of the world with the publication in 2004 of the bizarre prisoner abuse photographs from Abu Ghraib near Baghdad. As for Vice President Dick Cheney, he´s been described by retired Army Colonel Larry Wilkerson, Secretary of State Colin Powell´s chief of staff, as the man who provided “the philosophical guidance that led to the torture of detainees.” Wilkerson, who quit the State Department in January, 2005, said he didn´t fault Cheney for wishing to keep America safe “but he´ll corrupt the whole country to save it.” DOD Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and his former Defense Undersecretary Paul Wolfowitz, both authorized torture practices. When Bush nominated Wolfowitz as World Bank boss, Legislative Counsel Christopher Anders of the American Civil Liberties Union lamented, “As privates and sergeants are getting jail time, top level officials are getting promoted.” Human Rights First(HRF) has charged Rumsfeld with direct responsibility for torture. And the Center for Constitutional Rights(CCR) named Rumsfeld one of 10 defendants in a criminal complaint filed in Karlsruhe, Germany, for brutal acts of torture at Abu Ghraib. CCR Vice President Peter Weiss said CCR filed its complaint in Germany “because there is simply no other place to go” as USA refuses to join the International Criminal Court, and Iraq has no authority to prosecute. Under the doctrine of universal jurisdiction suspected war criminals may be prosecuted anywhere. Apparently, Rumsfeld did not put the military on the torture track without internal opposition. Then U.S. Navy General Counsel Alberto Mora, now retired, put up a diligent fight, according author Jane Mayer of The New Yorker. On December 2, 2002, Rumsfeld formally okayed coercive punishments such as “hooding,” “stress positions,” “exploitation of phobias,” “deprivation of light and auditory stimuli” and other tactics long forbidden by the Army Field Manual, Mayer wrote. One torture victim was Saudi detainee Mohammed al-Qahtani, a terrorist suspect arrested in Afghanistan in connection with the 9/ll skyjackings. According to Mayer, he was stripped and shaved, put in an isolation pen under artificial lights for 160 days, kept in a cold room, interrogated for up to 20 hours at a stretch, deprived of sleep, straddled by female guards, forced to wear a bra and women´s underwear on his head, put on a leash and threatened by dogs, taunted that his mother was a whore, and forced to listen to blaring pop music. It was Rumsfeld who appointed Dr. Stephen Cambone, the Defense Undersecretary who gave the orders to “soften up” Iraqi prisoners. Cambone told Major General Geoffrey Miller, former Guantanamo commandant, to go to Iraq to “Gitmo-ize” the interrogation process. Miller reportedly said, “You have to treat them like dogs” and okayed use of stress positions “for agonizing lengths of time,” according to reporter Seymour Hersh. Cambone is named in the CCR complaint for his role in “creating a secret operation program whose mandate included committing war crimes.” One form of torture begins with “extreme rendition.” Alleged terror suspects have been abducted by the CIA and flown to be tortured (and/or murdered) in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Morocco, Jordan and Uzbekistan, etc. The practice was begun around 1996 under President Clinton and vastly expanded by President Bush after 9/11. Sandy Berger, Clinton´s National Security Council director, and counterterrorism boss Richard Clarke, have been identified as having approved extreme rendition. Clinton, of course, is also culpable. Right now, Italy would like to lay its hands on 22 C.I.A. agents who three years ago abducted Milan resident cleric Hassan Osama Nasr for torture in Egypt. CIA pilots involved in extreme rendition flights, as well as their boss, former CIA Director Porter Goss and CIA ex-counter-terrorism chief Cofer Black should be called to account. Recall Goss asked Congress to exempt CIA operatives from any law banning torture and Black told Congress, “After 9/11, the gloves came off.” Any European officials who transferred suspects to the CIA are culpable. One human rights consortium said last April it has documented the involvement of over 600 U.S. military and civilian personnel for the abuse and torture of 460 detainees. A spokesman the Detainee Abuse and Accountability Project, Professor Meg Satterthwaite of NYU Law School, said “detainee abuses were widespread, and few people have truly been brought to justice.” Added Tom Malinowski, of Human Rights Watch, one of the participating groups, “We´ve seen a series of half-hearted investigations and slaps on the wrist.” As ex-President Carter writes in “Our Endangered Values”(Simon & Schuster) the “superficial investigations” into torture conducted by the Pentagon “have made it obvious that no high-level military officers or government officials will be held accountable…” USA may be holding 11,000 prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan, and at Guantanamo, Cuba, Human Rights First says. So far, more than 100 prisoners are said to have perished in U.S. custody. Captives include 800 Pakistani boys aged 13-15, some of them tortured, the International Red Cross has charged. A key architect of the “new paradigm” torture policy is ex-White House legal counsel Alberto Gonzales, now Attorney General, author of a torture memo in January of 2002. He dismissed the Geneva Conventions banning torture as “quaint.” His predecessor, Attorney General John Ashcroft, told Bush the Conventions outlawing torture did not apply to Taliban detainees. The CCR sued Ashcroft on behalf of Canadian citizen Maher Arar, who was abducted to Syria and tortured. Immigration and Naturalization Service(INS) and FBI agents who arrested Arar at JFK Airport and put him on a plane to Syria are culpable. In addition to Ashcroft, the CCR suit cited Larry Thompson, Acting Attorney General said to have signed the rendition order; FBI Director Robert Mueller; J. Scott Blackman, regional INS director; Edward McElroy, then INS director for the New York City district; and INS Commissioner James Zigler. High Bush aides responsible for torture include Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, who on August 1, 2002, drafted what became known as the “torture memo.” Also, Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff who, when head of Justice´s criminal division, advised the CIA it was okay to use water torture. Other law violators include John Yoo, now a University of California professor, who advised Bush the Geneva Conventions did not apply to detainees; Jack Goldsmith, who drafted the torture policy for Gonzales when he headed Justice´s Office of Legal Counsel; David Addington, Cheney´s top lawyer and a principle author of a White House memo justifying torture of terrorism suspects; Douglas Feith, former Undersecretary of Defense for Policy who had oversight for Abu Ghraib and like prisons; and former Pentagon general counsel William Haynes II, author of memos rationalizing torture. That such policy memos were translated into action was established by Human Rights Watch, which reported prison interrogators in the Baghdad area got a lecture from military lawyers saying Geneva Conventions did not apply and torturing was legit. Among military officers involved in torture are: Lt. General Ricardo Sanchez, U.S. senior commander in Iraq for about a year starting in June, 2003. His memo of September 14, 2003, authorized use of interrogation techniques such as dogs, isolation, and stress positions. Major General Walter Wojdakowski was his deputy commander in charge of an involved military intelligence brigade and is one of those named in the CCR criminal complaint. And Major General Barbara Fast, cleared by the Army of any wrongdoing, served as chief of intelligence for Sanchez. Colonel Thomas Pappas, head of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, was in charge of Iraq prisons and therefore responsible for what took place. He is also named in the CCR suit for torture “amounting to war crimes.” Lieutenant Colonel Steve Jordan, of 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, is said by CCR to even have witnessed one detainee´s death caused by his subordinates´ mistreatment. Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, with direct charge for Abu Ghraib and subsequently demoted to colonel, admitted to violation of the Geneva Conventions by holding so-called “ghost detainees” in secret. Sanchez, Pappas, and Karpinski are named in an ACLU complaint. Also, Captain Carolyn Wood, who oversaw interrogation at Bagram prison and approved the use of dogs and stress positions. Lt. General William Boykin reportedly advised Cambone to use water torture and to humiliate captives via religious taunting. Participating doctors, nurses, and paramedics who aided torturers at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere would be culpable as well. Air Force General Counsel Mary Walker, who headed a Rumsfeld working group on interrogation guidelines, rationalized that some criminal conduct was “not unlawful.” Lt. Colonel Stephen Jordan, former supervisor of interrogators at Abu Ghraib was named in the CCR complaint as having “clear knowledge” of ongoing abuses, and Lt. Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, commander of a military police battalion that oversaw Abu Ghraib was said by CCR to have failed to report war crimes. CCR also filed a class action suit in Federal court against Titan Corp. of San Diego and CACI International of Arlington, Va., and three of their employees, Stephen Stefanowicz and John Israel of CACI, and Adel Nahkla of Titan for abuses Abu Ghraib. Plaintiffs said they were hooded and raped, stripped naked and urinated on, prevented from praying, beaten with chains and boots, and forced to watch their father tortured to death. CACI has strongly denied the charges. Title 18 of the U.S. Code makes it a crime for an American to commit torture “outside the United States” and authorizes fines and prison terms of up to 20 years. If deaths result, those convicted may be jailed for life or executed. HRF has charged as of April, 2005, 108 foreign detainees had died in U.S. custody. CCR President Michael Ratner said, “the existence of ´torture memos´ drafted by administration officials and the authorization of techniques that violated humanitarian law by Secretary Rumsfeld, Lt. General Sanchez and others make clear that responsibility for Abu Ghraib and other violations of law reaches all the way to the top.” Calling for an investigation, Amnesty International´s Jumana Musa, warned, “Torture thrives on impunity. By not holding accountable the people who drafted and implemented the policies, the US government is giving a wink and a nod to torturers world wide.” Print Share Email Author’s Profile Shop | Send Us Info | Subscribe | Advertise | Privacy Policy | Feedback | Help The American Chronicle, California Chronicle, Los Angeles Chronicle, World Sentinel, and affiliates are online magazines for national, international, state, and local news. We also provide opinion and feature articles. We have over 3,500 contributors, over 100,000 articles, and over 11 million visitors annually. This website and its affiliates have no responsibility for the views, opinions and information communicated here. The contributor(s) and news providers are fully responsible for their content. In addition, the views and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of the American Chronicle or its affiliates. All services and information provided on this website are provided as general information only. http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/87739 Bookslinger: Advocating torture is advocating a crime. |
Bookslinger still doesn’t get it. Torture IS NOT beneficial! It is counterproductive, it requires use in secrecy (which is a breeding ground for abuse), it permanently harms our image, it riles up our enemy to more recruits, and frankly, it’s just not effective. Furthermore, it reinforces in our enemy their belief about us. They already think we’re the Great Satan. Why should we prove it in their eyes? We are in a better position if we show them our good side and let them see they were wrong about us from the start. Plus, I don’t think Bookslinger really wants American soldiers to be tortured, so why would he want to torture enemies? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That’s what Jesus teaches us. Maybe some of us have forgotten who it is we supposedly claim we follow. |
right on djinn. In fact the only real proponents of torture are the civilians who watch too much television. |
Dan, The golden rule does not mean that if you do something it will actually be done to you. As a result, the rule is reasonable but does not speak to those in power over others. Pretty sure Bookslinger in his realism is aware of your opposing argument. Oh, yes, it is 24s fault. I think we can hit 200 comment by Tuesday on this post. |
Dan, Check out my post #153 It may be old news but is relevant. Time for a congressional appointed independent prosecutor to see if there is any US citizens violation of US and international law on torture. |
Dan, There are many folks in the U.S. who do not believe in Jesus nor the Golden Rule. I think torture is near the least of our “global image” worries and especially near the bottom of the list of things that folks hate us (or continue to hate us) for. |
nasamomdele, Do not get Dan started on which non-Christian group is to blame for all of this. |
I think our military should use torture if they think it’s beneficial, but just lie about it, and deny that they torture people. Ha! Classic comment. Do you think Pres. Monson should start recommending this policy within families too? |
Chris, The Golden Rule is never about your enemy, but about yourself. It doesn’t matter if they don’t actually treat you the way you wish to be treated. It is about whether you truly believe the principles of Christianity and will live them come hell or high water. nasamomdele,
Actually why don’t you ask those who led interrogations in Iraq for the Americans. They’ll tell you differently. They’ll tell you that the abuse at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib led to an increase in terror attacks against American soldiers in Iraq. Or… are we not to believe the Iraqis who told them that? I see…. so torture works at giving us accurate information, except when it is detrimental to our position… I get it now. Chris, I don’t blame them for this, and I find your comment offensive that you think I fit in that category. This is exactly why I think that whole category needs to be removed. It is abused. |
But Geoff is that what we already do with our families. Is it just me. Oh, crap. |
Geoff, #159, Elders Quorum Presidents might want to use it. I’m sure it will increase home teaching numbers. |
Dan, “The Golden Rule is never about your enemy, but about yourself. It doesn’t matter if they don’t actually treat you the way you wish to be treated. It is about whether you truly believe the principles of Christianity and will live them come hell or high water.” That is true, but I think the Bookslinger was making a realist/national interest argument…in other words, if it is good for the USA, who cares about morality of anysort. Not a good argument. “I don’t blame them for this, and I find your comment offensive that you think I fit in that category.” What category? Not sure if I am following. Your comments elsewhere speak for themselves. Mostly just giving you a hard time. |
Chris, You ought to be following. You brought it up. I don’t fit in that category |
To clarify, the realist argument is not a good argument. Your golden rule argument is correct. I just think that you are talking past people like Bookslinger on this issue. |
I am following me, but I am not following you. Dan, you flirt with dangerous stuff sometimes in the arguments you make, particularly when you get worked up about torture. Passion is good but can also be dangerous. #158 was supposed to be a bit of a poke at you. Maybe I am glad that I hit a nerve. That is what I do. |
Chris, Then let me put it clearly. You think I am anti-Semitist when I am far from it. Who knows why you had to bring that here, but it would probably be better for you to let it go. |
Dude, sorry. Comment #157. I know that your are not an anti-Semite. But you have not shied away from making comments that are dangerously close to appealing to such sentiments. I told you that I would hold you accountable for them. That is what I am doing. But I will leave it be. Back to comments on the general discussion. Peace. |
Plus, I don’t think Bookslinger really wants American soldiers to be tortured, so why would he want to torture enemies? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That’s what Jesus teaches us. Maybe some of us have forgotten who it is we supposedly claim we follow. Of course, we could give the American military the same trump card Nephi got when he was commanded to kill Laban. And no one accuses Nephi of not following Christ… |
djinn: “because the Military, across the board, thinks its a very bad idea indeed” Then why has it been going on with their prisoners at their prisons? (BTW, I think the Abu Graib thing got out of hand, but there was apparently some upper-level attitude towards the treatment of prisoners that set the stage or atmosphere for some of the knuckle-dragging prison guards to think they could get away with over-the-top abuse with impunity.) I think Peteaus’ statement, and others like it, are examples if misdirection, exactly what I was saying they should do. They say they don’t want to do it, but… And, according to the historical definition of torture, waterboarding isn’t torture. Causing permanent injuries, maiming, crushing or hacking off limbs, electrocution, etc, etc, that is torture. Geoff J: President Monson has stretched the truth in the past for the public good of the church. Shortly after I joined the church, I remember he said during general conference that missionaries were the “creme de la creme” of young men in the church, “must” be this, and “must” be that. That only the best were admitted to missionary service, etc. I thought “must be” meant an absolute, a pre-requisite for admission to missionary service. When I got to the MTC in 1984, I soon realized that what he said was not to be taken literally. There were _some_ really good guys there. There were many who were _trying_ to live up to the high standards. But the reality of the situation did not meet his seemingly absolutist statements. Even in the mission, I had rude awakenings along the line of John Dehlin. Had I not had one of those “burned in” testimonies, I would have turned around at day one at the MTC. And several other times in the MTC and in the mission considered buying my own ticket home based on what I saw. It took me a long time to resolve Pres Monson’s statements with the reality of young men in the MTC and in the mission. (My problems were not with those who had misbehaved/sinned and repented, but rather those who continued to brag about mischief/sins, denying that repentance was necessary, looking at a mission as a 2 year paid vacation away from mom/dad, and denying the things they were supposed to be teaching.) For many years I had uncharitable feelings towards the church and its leaders over that issue of misdirection and not publicizing the _whole_ truth. It would take too long to go into here how I resolved that in my mind. Maybe it’s not outright lieing, but in sales terms it’s called “puffery”. But it’s like dirty laundry, or how sausage is made. Not everything needs to be opened for public consumption. Even today, departing missionaries are told not to write bad news back to their family and friends. Not everything really needs to be reported for public consumption. The problem is that people like what’s-his-face are trying to make the US out to be worse than any of our enemies. No. We don’t hack off people’s heads with dull knives from the throat side while they are still conscious. So far as has been revealed, we have not done what the Soviet Union did to our POW’s in the Vietnam War (torture them for all info, then drown them, and destroy the remains.) All countries have a heckuva lot of dirty laundry about their pasts. Some stays hidden, and some doesn’t. And national security and saving innocent lives is a sufficient reason for many dirty laundry items to stay hidden. Let’s let our military do their job. Give them a goal, and turn them loose to do it. Waterboarding, or even real torture, is only the tip of the iceberg. Some day, as promised in scripture, all things (all sins, acts, words and thoughts of mankind) will be revealed, and we will all be very very shocked at the history of the United States and _all_ countries, and at all mankind. We’ll find out who (or who all) shot JFK. The truth about all American involvement in Vietnam, the truth about Soviet and Chinese communism, why the US Civil War was really fought, the Luminati, the Trilateral Commission, bla bla bla, who all knew in advance of Mountain Meadows, who covered up what, what really happened during Nauvoo-era polygamy, etc, etc. It will all come out, going back to day one with Adam and Eve. |
Many times when church leaders say “these are the creme of the creme”, it’s a rhetorical flourish in terms of “we wish that these would become” or “we hope that“. It’s not necessarily in a sense of current state. |
Legal Definition on Torture Acording to US Law. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002340—-000-.html § 2340. Definitions |
International definition of torture to which US sign the the International Convention against torture. Certainly water boarding is within this definition |
queuno,
Don’t let the exception become the rule. Particularly since there is no exception for mistreating prisoners anywhere in scripture by holy men. There’s an argument to be made for justifiable killing. But there is no argument for mistreating prisoners. This is just like the “well Jesus beat the temple moneychangers” argument, queuno. It just doesn’t hold water when trying to compare it to the use of torture on prisoners. This is stretching to justify that which you know to be against the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If it weren’t wrong, you wouldn’t need to try and claim that the extreme exception to the rule justifies the act you are defending. |
Bookslinger,
There you go again, revising history. According to the “historical definition” you BET your ass waterboarding is torture. It’s whole purpose is to make you think you are DYING! That’s torture dude. And if you don’t think it is, go get waterboarded by your friends in a friendly safe environment and come back to us and tell us what you really think. Then, try getting waterboarded by your enemies who use other techniques as well to ‘soften’ you up, and see exactly what you think about waterboarding.
They were doing their jobs just fine before the civilians ordered them to disobey their own freaking field manuals! They were doing their jobs just fine following the Geneva Conventions before civilians who had never seen combat themselves ordered them to ‘take the gloves off.’ Then the military had to deal with very very angry people wanting to kill them solely because of Abu Ghraib. The use of these torture techniques has ENDANGERED our American soldiers. Why do you defend their use, bookslinger? Is it just a reflexive defensive response? Liberals are against torture, therefore I must support it? Are you really that stupid? |
Don’t let the exception become the rule. I’m not a big fan of making exceptions rules. I like to leave them as exceptions, where they should remove. The problem is when exceptions get whittled out. It just doesn’t hold water when trying to compare it to the use of torture on prisoners. So now you’re the judge of all that is good and righteous? If it weren’t wrong, you wouldn’t need to try and claim that the extreme exception to the rule justifies the act you are defending. Lots of things are wrong. I’m only interested in maintaining the once-in-a-great-while exception. I’m no fan of torture. I’m not also a fan of nuclear weapons being used to end wars. But maybe, just maybe, sometimes it’s necessary. |
Look Bookslinger, I understand that there is gray area when it come to interrogation techniques. But you were not in gray area with this comment:
No, that is squarely in black. Let’s take your proposed doctrine and use it in other areas where we know it is actually occasionally used: I think our police should use torture if they think it’s beneficial, but just lie about it, and deny that they torture people. I think our jail keepers should use torture if they think it’s beneficial, but just lie about it, and deny that they torture people. I think parents should use torture if they think it’s beneficial, but just lie about it, and deny that they torture their children. I think our nursing home workers should use torture if they think it’s beneficial, but just lie about it, and deny that they torture people. I think babysitters and day care workers should use torture if they think it’s beneficial, but just lie about it, and deny that they torture children they consider naughty. I suggest you just admit that you should not have made that ridiculous original comment rather than try to justify it. If you actually think that original comment represents a morally acceptable position to take maybe you should spend a little more time reading and internalizing those books you sling about. |
Err, “where they should remain” (not remove). |
queuno,
Huh? There truly is no comparison between Nephi beheading Laban at the Lord’s request and the illegal use of torture on prisoners!
Only problem is one is actually effective; the other is not. I leave you to decide which one is which. |
The problem with this whole discussion (at least where Dan has taken it, since I think the original post had promise) is that Dan has no end point to his discussion. It’s just continued ranting. We get your point. Maybe you should focus on finding a presidential candidate who will actually carry out your views. It appears that the “no torture, ever” principle is doomed to remain strictly an academic one. I think Obama gives thanks for the Cheney doctrine on torture, since it gives him an opening to not have to solve the problem… |
Only problem is one is actually effective; the other is not. I leave you to decide which one is which. Well, actually, I leave it to my elected officials and the officials they appoint. |
queuno, I do have an end point: the abolition of torture in America, and the recognition that it is in fact useless, counterproductive, immoral, and a danger to our soldiers and nation, which is how it was before Dick Cheney came about and screwed it all up. |
No queuno, you should tell your elected officials and the officials they appoint what you think. That’s the whole point of representative democracy. Otherwise, we live in an oligarchy, or a plutocracy, or a dumbocracy. |
But see, Dan, I’m frankly more worried about LeBron saying with the Cavs after 2010. I know, I’m terrible. Do I think there should be limits on torture? Sure. But I don’t have the solution to where the exceptions are legitimate and what they should be. |
(I’m being deliberately cavalier, I know. And honestly, it really is a concern. But you’re just spinning your wheels until you actually get legislators and an executive branch who gives a damn. And Obama gives thanks every night that he has Cheney’s roadmap to follow, instead of having to go it alone. Activists lead a lonely existence if they don’t have anyone to actually listen to them.) |
queuno,
Don’t you get it? the limits were already in place! what Cheney ordered was ILLEGAL. Or are you saying that just because the current president thinks something that was previously illegal should now be considered legal that we should agree with him? I mean, talk about trampling on the Constitution! There’s a point to believing in the rule of law. That point is that we believe law trumps individuals. The law was already in place, queuno, to say that waterboarding was illegal, that sleep deprivation was illegal, that the rest of those techniques were illegal when done by American forces. The law was clear. You don’t have to have a solution to where the exceptions are, or what should be the standard. It was already there! The answer is quite simple. Those who BROKE THE LAW deserve punishment. That includes Dick Cheney and George W. Bush. And that includes Jay Bybee and John Yoo. And that includes the CIA officers who knowingly broke the law, or who relied on the terrible legal advice from Bybee and Yoo.
Thank goodness I’m not an activist or really trying to get people to listen to me. |
Obama signed a Executive Order that any interrogation techniques will follow the US Army Field Manual. |
179 Geoff: I think queuno has the best point here. It’s not the ideal, but there are exceptions. And, there have to be exceptions in the exigencies of national security in wartime. Your analogies don’t rise to the level of national security and war with terrorists and non-governmental combatants. And there are examples of exigencies in national survival in the Book of Mormon, specifically, Captain Moroni summarily executing disloyal citizens. This kind of stuff has been going on by the U.S. military since at least WII, and likely from the Civil War. The difference now is that with the electronic age, these things get out, whereas before, they were kept secret. If anything, I think the greater crime has been in the medias’ divulging of these items of national security. This whole matter should have stayed internal to the military. |
Bookslinger,
You still don’t get it. What Captain Moroni did was WITHIN THE LAW! What Cheney ordered was ILLEGAL. It’s okay for a Republican to break the law and not get punished for it. It all started with the pardoning of Nixon. What a terrible thing Ford did to our nation! |
Bookslinger, Executing traitors is not an exception to the rule so don’t try to use Captain Moroni to justify your indefensible comments. I agree that evil atrocities have always happened on earth. They have happened at wartime, in prisons, in schools, and in homes. The fact that they have happened a for long time certainly is no reason for us to ignore or tolerate them now. Your call to turn a blind eye to any atrocities is morally repugnant to me. A child-raping parent could use your exact same arguments/justifications and they would be as morally wrong as you are:
Seriously, are your really blind to these obvious points? |
So, Dan, You believe abortion is always a good thing because it’s with in the Law? The problem with this debate is your limp-wristed definition of torture. Some of Capt. Moroni’s strategies were probably more psychologically devastating than the comparatively (dare I say) mild techniques that are used today. He caused his enemies to believe they were gonna die if they didn’t cooperate. What’s the difference between that and pouring water over someone’s face? To imply that no coercion whatsoever ought to be used to extract vital information from hardened criminals is like suggesting that corporations should never cause their employees to break a sweat while working. |
Jack, Torture is against US law. Water boarding is pouring water down into some one lungs not over some one face. It is stopped before they drown. Any type of coercion is illegal period while extracting information. It is sickening that others on this thread uses LDS scripture to justify criminality. There are other options to gather information other than coercion that are extremely effective. No abortion is not a good thing even if it is within the law. Even if coercive interrogation techniques is not a good thing when OLC thinks it is not. |
Jack,
Mild? Care to take a dunk? Tell me afterward if you think they were mild.
Who said there shouldn’t be ANY coercion? We’re talking about techniques that abuse, not coerce. We’re talking about techniques that require doctors on hand to ensure the victim…er I mean, detainee doesn’t DIE! That’s not coercion. That’s torture and abuse. No LDS Scripture can defend that.
Abortion is legal in this country, therefore if practiced within the guidelines of the law, I really don’t have a problem with it. As to the reasons people have for using it, that’s between them, their doctors and God. But that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the subject at hand. |
Dan, Well I guess then it boils down to definitions. You’re gonna have to draw a reasonable line between coercion and abuse. You may be right that water boarding crosses the line — and I’m sure you’re right that it’s something I wouldn’t want to experience. But neither would I want to have someone take off my scalp (what little I have left) and threaten me with extinction if I didn’t cooperate. B Tippetts, I’m not trying to justify torture by the scriptures. What I have a problem with is when some folks think their interpretation is holier than others’. |
“Abortion is legal in this country, therefore if practiced within the guidelines of the law, I really don’t have a problem with it.” –Dan Where’s the moral outrage, Dan? Or is it saved for partisan politics? Sorry, but the above statement grants you zero credibility when using your morality angle to this argument. |
This just in–Torture doesn’t work. The General described the failures at all levels of civilian and military command that led to the abuses in Iraq, “and that is why I support the formation of a truth commission.” The General went on to say that, “during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques.” I interviewed General Sanchez after the event and asked him to elaborate on why he felt the US needed such a commission. “For the American people to really know what happened, ” he replied, “…this was an institutional failure, a personal failure on the part of many….” “If we do not find out what happened,” continued the General, “then we are doomed to repeat it.”" |
#191. If people today executed disloyal citizens they would be breaking the law . Or if Lehi cutting Laban’s head off might he suffer the consquences of capital punishment today? How is that reading these verses in the Book of Mormon I can get closer to God then any other book? But yet we have LDS quoting scriptures out of context to justify their distortion of justice or favor un righteous violence. Why should I be surprise when the so called Christians favored torture and inquisitions to arrive at purification during the 1500′s. We have fanatics cutting people heads off in the name of Allah. So too today 57% Christians state torture is moral or proper if we can obtain information to protect national security. Such distorted ideas has been implied on this thread. Anything goes if we can justify it the name of our Lord. When will people learn the gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of non violence, compassion and love toward our enemies? There is a better way. Even Christ pleaded to His Father to forgive them for they do not know what they do when He was being tortured on the cross. Note: We have US soldiers in Iraq who will give their blood to the enemy to save them even when the same enemy tried to kill his compatriots fews hours before. We have LDS Sister Peterson who refused to conduct torture when told to do so. |
Retired LDS General speaks out against torture and Bush administration policies . Not only is torture not effective but is immoral. His christian faith compels him toward this conclusion. He can not understand members of his own faith were part of the torture regime;that poltical idealogy trumps ones own religion. One can not seperate private religious beliefs in making public policy. Click on the audio video link further down the web site. http://www.kued.org/productions/utahnow/?action=viewShowDetails&id=161 |
More on torture not working. Turns out that a CIA agent who trumpeted loudly and longly that warterboarding led to us learning invaluable information has now taken it all–all of it–back. ” John Kiriakou, the former CIA operative who affirmed claims that waterboarding quickly unloosed the tongues of hard-core terrorists, says he didn’t know what he was talking about.”When I spoke to ABC News in December 2007 I was aware of Abu Zubaydah being water boarded on one occasion. It was after this one occasion that he revealed information related to a planned terrorist attack. As I said in the original interview, my information was second-hand. I never participated in the use of enhanced techniques on Abu Zubaydah or on any other prisoner, nor did I witness the use of such techniques.” Read about it here: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/26/cia_man_retracts_claim_on_waterboarding?page=0,1 |
Guess what? People got tortured when Jimmy was pres. and Bill too… And that last comment… sounds like C.Y.A. |
SonNofaB.C.Rich, call for citations. Also, Jimmy Carter was president between 1977 and 1981 and we signed the United Nations Convention Against Torture in 1984, after his presidency. I still don’t believe we tortured anyone during his presidency, though. |
I’m sure we did, Jimmy was just too busy watching sesame street to notice. |