There’s that word FORCE again. Force this company, force that organization, force those people to pay more than others in taxes, etc., etc. Why not force tithing? Because forcing is not Christ’s way. It IS, however, the government’s way. Teach righteous behavior, don’t force it.

i spent 3 years in the “heart” of Los Angeles, the whole time working on my own little mental littering case study. the most interesting thing that i saw during those years was while watching a little girl eat a banana at an intersetion. she was holding hands with her mom. the girl took her last bite of banana, let go of her mom’s hand and ran over to a near by abandoned street couch about 15 ft away. she through her bananna peel onto the heavily littered couch and -appearing to be pleased with herself- darted back to her mom’s hand.

*if you want to go to the temple than you are forced to pay tithing.
*if you want to sell CRAP food in our country than you should be forced to do it as responsibly as possible….in my opinion.

I’m worried you’ll get beat up telling somebody to pick up their garbage in the inner city.

But Rick – surely you don’t want to FORCE these students to wear socks and knee-length shorts? Teach righteous behavior, don’t force it.

When I was a kid everyone littered. Then the government came up with an owl that said, “Give a Hoot. Don’t pollute”. They drilled the slogan into our elementary school brains. I must have worked cause people stopped littering. I think kids harrassed their parents into compliance. It guess it is time to get that owl out again.

Devyn,

Paying taxes is compulsory. Paying tithing is voluntary. Going to BYU is also voluntary. If you get the rules (or laws) changed then those are the rules.

Perhaps you can convince Heavenly Father to call Perez Hilton as prophet.

I never thought I see so many members wishing or wanting to dismiss or lower the standards of this great church.

Rick – paying taxes is voluntary if you ask some of the wacky John Bircher Mormons :)

Again, you really think it ia bad idea to have people pay a deposit on cigarettes and lotter tickets just as they do for soda bottles? If it clears the streets of litter and results in less garbage in landfills, then what is the problem – no one is being “forced”, they voluntary do it.

Who is Perez Hilton?

Not sure that the Honor Code qualifies as a standard of the Church. How does advocating for less litter have anything to do with the standards of the Church?

rick m,

I appreciate your direct response. :)

Seriously, living in the USA is also voluntary. You really see no parallels? Or is BYU exempt from your otherwise consistent worldview?

Let me be the first person here to denounce Dyven for throwing away all of these items in his yard and not recycling them. Over the 9 years that he’s lived in the inner city, he’s probably added hundreds upon hundreds of pounds of garbage to landfills by treating these items that others have laid upon his lawn as mere trash. If only he would have recycled them, he could have created all kinds of new economic opportunity, like Obama is doing with green jobs and the new green economy and all the green unemployment. Yet he has the nerve to ask what others were thinking?

On this argument of “forcing”…

BYU is a private institution. If they want to require people to follow their code they can. If you don’t like it there are plenty of other universities to do to.

The government is a public institution. They should not be forcing businesses or individuals to pay extra for a product because other people can’t pick up after themselves.

That being said there is always a fine balance between what the government has to impose and what it should avoid imposing.

It’s sad that the trend is to increasingly add new regulations that force adherence to them.

Peter,

As a side note, it may interest readers to learn that even if one revokes one’s voluntary citizenship, paying taxes remain compulsory for the next decade.

Well, yeah, if you continue living and working within said country. But you are again, not forced to remain here. You are perfectly free to go elsewhere, work elsewhere, live elsewhere.

Well, yeah, if you continue living and working within said country.

Actually, even if you leave the country, you still owe the IRS a tax return and any resulting tax debt for the next ten years. In other words, the US has closed the leaving-the-country-and/or-renouncing-citizenship-as-an-easy-way-to-evade-taxes loophole.

But you are again, not forced to remain here. You are perfectly free to go elsewhere, work elsewhere, live elsewhere.

True, but you are not free as a (former) citizen living outside the US of your financial obligations to the US government.

sam #19,

Precisely.

re: 24

Wow, that’s amazing and really disappointing at the same time. I would not have imagined that BYU students needed to be commanded in all things, including where they may and may not wear shoes! Holy cow. If the Honor Code deigns to address the important issue of wear to don shoes, it must also address the trivial matter of littering and sullying the Lord’s campus, no?

I have to think an Honor Code that includes such picayune matters has to be considered garbage that litters the mind.

re: Rick M at 11

Rest assured the BYU Honor Code is not the standard of this great Church, at least in Southeastern PA. This great Church is much better than that. There are plenty of us who do not need to be told where we can and cannot wear shoes without the benefit of an Honor Code or possible sanctions for violating such a stupid standard. But if you find solace in being commanded in all things, then you’ve apparently found a source of strength and comfort. Godspeed.

Right, if you have obligations under your previous contract with the United States government, you just can’t get out of that by simply renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country entirely. You’ve gotta finish your part of the contract. Once that is complete though, you have completely severed your relationship with the United States.

Right, but what I suspect some people are unaware of is the fact that for citizens, your contractual obligations remain in place for a period of ten years even if you sever all ties with the United States.

You can stop working, pay all your debts, renounce citizenship, move to France, qualify for French citizenship and start working for Citroen and the IRS is still entitled to a tax return. And if a US citizen were to do all of the above except renounce citizenship, tax and other financial reporting obligations would remain for the rest of this person’s natural life despite all other attempts to sever relations with the US.

Re: 30. You’re killing me here. Do I read your comment correctly the BYU HC has a section that addresses walking on campus lawns?!?!

Back to the OP, I like the deposit idea but I like the idea of selling litter even better. Last October as I walked out of Citizens Bank Ballpark after game 5(b) of the World Series I was predisposed to toss my ticket stub. As I was looking for a place to drop my stub a guy approached me and offered to buy mine and my son’s. We haggled for a bit and I sold my “litter” for $50.00 to this poor sap. (He claimed he would be able resell the ticket stub on e-bay for a lot more than $50.00. Probably also thinks he’ll win the lottery.) Thus, there was marginally less litter on the streets of Philly that night and I was a little richer.

17. DKL – I plead guilty. Perhaps you and I can consolidate all of the trash we collect in our yards and create biofuel – should be enough to fuel both our cars :)

20. Peter LLC – yep, smokers are certainly pretty sensitive about it. I chalk it up to guilt.

31. rbc – someone paid you $50 for ticket stubs? What was their face value? Wonder if he was taking them to use as a template for fake ones…

Re: 33

The stubs are a form of sports memorobelia that fans will apparently pay to have. Now I wish I had kept the stubs to compliment the fond memories of watching the clinching game of a world series with my son. Don’t remember what I wasted the $50.00 on, but I think my son kept it all-sans tithing of course, at least I hope so.

As one may recall, game 5(b) of the WS was really the continuation of the suspended game. Game 5(a) was suspended b/c of rain and the fact is was so damn cold, especially for those of us who were underdressed. There were many people who threw out their ticket stubs on their way out of the stadium after the game was suspended. Unfortunately for then, they would need those stubs to get back into the stadium for game 5(b). Another reason not to litter. You never know when you may need that trash; although, I can’t imagine a second use for a cigarette butt.

The Honor Code itself mandates that students, faculty and staff shall “observe Dress and Grooming Standards”; the D&G Standards in turn stipulate that “shorts must be knee length or longer,” and, while there is no mention of socks per se, they indicate that “shoes should be worn in all public campus areas,” and I don’t think one need elaborate the social advantages of wearing socks with said shoes.

Early 90s, socks were part of the D&G code.

Whether it’s stupid or not … let’s remember that attendance at BYU is voluntary. People don’t have to sign it and don’t have to attend BYU, and their prospects for exaltation are not diminished.

Like it or not, BYU wants to present a certain image.

(Thus saith the bearded, barefoot, non-sock-wearing former HCC member…)

rbc #28,

By all means, if you think this is one of the greatest things to rebel over and if that be your true nature, feel free. But just you know it’s of little consequence. If you would rather not adhere to that HC, there’s always Berkeley.

Re: 40

I don’t understand. I didn’t attend BYU so I’m not bound to follow its silly honor code. Or, am I? (The HC, to the extent it addresses important issues like cheating is not silly. Including dress and grooming standards seems silly, at least to me. Especially if you, like others here, really believe BYU is a “top university.”)

Against what am I rebelling? You don’t mean to suggest the HC extends beyond the well manicured corners of BYU, do you?

re: 43

I’m not sure you understand what I meant. I find the HC way more amusing than irritating. Actually, I’m not at all irritated by it, since the only impact it has on me comes from folks who try to extend it beyond BYU. The issue isn’t about liking BYU, that’s irrelevant. For the record, as a Mormon who may bask in the reflected glow of Church institutions, I hope BYU becomes a “top-notch” university. To the extent that status reflects well on the Church or says something about Mormons, then more power to the folks who run and attend BYU and hurry up already!

I happen to believe if the D&G were removed, not much, if anything, would change. There may some outliers on the margins, but the majority of kids would probably still dress pretty close to how they do now. We Mormons are pretty good at group think and conformity without explicit written instructions, see e.g. white shirts, no facial hair etc. I guess I have more faith in the BYU student body than the administrators, but that is based on the kids I’ve worked with as a YMP and SYMP for 10! straight years in the Southeast and East Coast. Most kids that I’ve known who attend BYU are pretty level headed. But, the ones who like to call the rest of us to repentance over things like the D&G standards are an almost endless source of amusement and entertainment. Hopefully BYU will keep attracting and empowering those types. They add some levity to our church lives-except when they are put in charge which unfortunately happens from time to time.

Go to an event at what most BYU people probably consider a peer institution-Notre Dame, Georgetown, Villanova et al-and you will see a bunch of kids who look remarkably similar to BYU kids, all without the burden of being told by their admins how to dress.(Not sure people from those schools would consider BYU a peer institution, but who cares what they think.)

Sorry to have taken this so far off topic. I’ll voice other HC comments to the HC thread.

queuno (41),

Ah, so much to respond to there, but I’ll leave the low hanging fruit alone.

I have also heard the complaints from those that attended Ricks that the BYU-Provo Honor Code is too lax. My standard tactic is to compare the honor codes of various institutions and then ask them which requires and teaches more about “honor”. This has happened a handful of times and the people praising BYU-I have left the conversation with their opinions reversed.

As for the discussion of whether the BYU Honor Code has any influence beyond BYU, I can state that it does. In fact, two years ago a member of my ward who happens to be a BYU professor bore her testimony in fast and testimony meeting. Rather than bearing her testimony of Jesus, or the Gospel, she bore her testimony regarding the BYU Honor Code. I found this very disturbing.

I think it would be very hard to argue that the BYU Honor Code doesn’t have some impact on broader LDS Culture. There are some (not the majority, but a significant minority) that feel that the BYU stamp of approval on certain behaviors and dress and grooming standards are a sort of higher law, and they act and judge accordingly.

#48. I remember the time while a student at BYU that non students could not bless the Sacrament because of long hair. This was a mixed ward off campus consisting mostly of BYU students. Even temple going Saints with beards have offended temple worshipers.

My goodness we have Tongans who have tatoos for tribal reasons and holds temple reccomends. I am sure the questions the Bishop ask for a Temple reccomend does not include tatoos. We as saints should look for the contrite and humble behavior and not worry about out ward apprearances.

queuno,

No, there is more to it than the dress and grooming standards. There are the rules about where you can be in someone’s house, the old rules about homosexuality that were too extreme, and anything that goes beyond what an academic honor code should contain is likely to have influenced members.

Frankly, the implementation of the academic parts of it leave a lot to be desired too. The testing center has its benefits, but also teaches students that they are not trusted to take unproctored tests and that they shouldn’t trust their fellow students either. What does this teach Mormons about themselves and their fellow Mormons?