32 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
I would love for this to be the case. However, in practice this is usually interpreted to mean that you can discern if the prophets are speaking for the Lord provided that you always come to the conclusion that they are speaking for the Lord. For example, when answering the temple recommend questions, if you respond, “Well, I don’t think the prophet was speaking for the Lord in that instance so I live my life and believe accordingly” and you still got your valid temple recommend then it really would be up to us to discern when prophets are speaking for the Lord. To be perfectly blunt, it’s one of those lines that sounds good, but it just ain’t the case. |
The More I hear about this book, the more Interested I am, but I have had a hard time getting over how ugly the cover is.. |
David: I think it is up to us *collectively* to discern when the prophets are speaking for the Lord. |
Matt W You can’t *collectively* discern anything, in fact, I don’t even know what that would mean. |
Matt W. (2), Yes, the cover is awful. As a grammar/spelling nazi, I have to say the editing was also pretty bad. The book is very good, though. |
“1. Reject the new information as false; I’m curious Ellsworth. Do you buy that? If so, where do you fall on his spectrum? Does it depend on the new information? |
Jota, it depends on the issue as much or more than the person. Various issues raised by critics of the church can fall under any of items 1 through 4. 1. Some claims made by critics are just false. 2. Some claims made by critics are unimportant and don’t change the issue at all. Yeah, Joseph use the Urim and Thummim for a while (the first 116 pages I think), and then a stone after he resumed translating after he lost his privileges for a while. 3. Some claims made by critics give incomplete/misleading information, and upon learning more information, the issue can be resolved. IE, none of the found papyri scrolls match the Book of Abraham text. Well, there was no documentation for the chain of possession for the material since Joseph Smith’s day. So, the BoA papyri just hasn’t been found, or was destroyed, or somehow got separated from the other material. Or, as some suggest, the revelatory process maybe didn’t even require the actual scroll. 4. Some claims made by critics are true. (Um, yeah some Mormons, directed by their local leaders, did massacre a wagon train of migrants heading for California.) |
What Bookslinger said. I usually find myself in #3, and occasionally 4, 2, and 1. I used to be entirely in #1, though- I don’t think I was capable of processing a lot of complexity or ambiguity in thinking about the Gospel. Those were the good old days… |
The problem is our belief in our prophets’ infallibility. For heaven’s sake. They’re men just like every other man. Mormons are just whacked. We say “nobody’s perfect,” but we don’t believe it. We think the prophet’s perfect, or our Relief Society president, or some other paragon of virtue we’ve set up on a pedestal. We expect life should be perfect and when it’s not, it shakes us to the very core. If we just simply accepted that life is crazy most of the time, we’d be better at the thinking for ourselves part. Now, on the other hand, if the prophet came out and said, “God has revealed to me that women can have the priesthood” I’d accept it. I might not feel good about it, but if he says, “God said it” well, the debate is over. But if you tried to live out of every word that came out of the prophet’s/apostles’ mouths, you’d be a pretty screwed up person. They contradict each other sometimes. |
annegb, When was the last time that a prophet used such “thus saith the Lord” language? |
My sister left the church because she was so shocked to learn about the history of this church (which she happened to learn from outside sources rather than inside). |
“I believe that statement and I appreciate the intellectual and spiritual freedom it proposes, but I also find it very troubling on a personal level because I believe my acceptance of that statement puts my approach to the Gospel at odds with that of the majority of active members of the Church.” Yep. Many if not most active members of the Church, in my experience, believe that there is an objective standard or “test” you can apply to a prophetic pronouncement that will definitively determine whether said pronouncment is truly authoritative or not. Many differ on the tests they’d apply (if it was said in GC, if it was ever said and never repudiated, if someone above a certain level of authority said it, etc.), and most apply their tests inconsistently and in a manner that conveniently supports their ideological druthers, but at the end of the day, they agree that such tests or standards are available to LDS members. They’re wrong. This is troubling to many, because a large part of the appeal of Mormonism for people is its supposed ability to give you an objective standard you can appeal to outside yourself to determine the truthfulness of propositions or the advisability of courses of action. Of course, everyone knows that one’s own testimony must often be gained by one’s own efforts to approach the Lord, and one’s own abilities to initially discern that the “Church is true,” or what have you. But once an initial testimony is achieved, the expectation is that following the Prophet and taking seriously his every pronouncement is sufficient to know the will of God; individual efforts to spiritually evaluate each new prophetic pronouncement feel like a reinventing of the wheel, and cause one to question what value added there is in having a Prophet. I’m sympathetic on some level to the frustration people feel when they reach this realization. After all, I used to feel the frustration myself. But in order to buy into the more typical Mormon understanding of things, you have to maintain a basic ignorance of LDS doctrinal history, and if you’ve disabused yourself of that ignorance, there’s no turning back. It simply isn’t possible to put your own spiritual discernment to the side as you evaluate prophetic pronouncements. Such evaluation needs to be an ongoing process. The fact that we are all very fallible in our evaluations doesn’t change this basic truth. The fact that we will inevitably come to different conclusions about the significance of various prophetic prounouncements some of the time may mean that some of us are right and some of are wrong. This is often perceived as a shortcoming of our not having an objective standard. Maybe it IS a shortcoming (particularly if you want to beat your doctrinal opponents over the head with objective tools and church quotes). Too bad. It’s all we got. Mormonism simply isn’t what a lot of its believers want it be, and it can never be what they want it to be. There may be some other church out there whose leaders meet the criteria many of us want our leaders to meet, or that can plausibly teach that its leaders’ pronouncements are fully and always trustworthy, but Mormonism just isn’t it. AB |
Great post, Dan. Though I try to be careful in conversation, I am sometimes surprised by the reactions I get. I remember casually discussing Brigham Young with a friend and being surprised by the question, “What is the Adam-God theory?” I thought to myself “oops!” Another time, something I’d said prompted someone to ask, “So they have the originals of the Book of Abraham?” Again, I thought, “Oops.” I don’t want my conversation about church history to be non-edifying. I feel like I’m on shaky ground when I try to talk about such topics in a faith promoting way. Whatever ends up making people feel “shaken,” I just don’t want it to be me. I want for people to look at these things as part of the rich and complex tapestry that constitutes our common heritage as Mormons. As far as people who have already had their faith shaken by something, my advice to them would be that no matter what else they do or feel about it, they shouldn’t stop going to church. Once they stop going to church, it introduces a separation between them and the church that is over and above any misgivings they have, and it virtually ensures that their doubts will be fatal to their participation in the church. One of the best resources I know of is John Dehlin’s brilliant article, “How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Major Challenge to Your Faith.” Another great resource is Mormon Studies conferences like the MHA or JWHA or Sunstone. Meeting other people and discussing things with them candidly can be a liberating step for people worried about something they’ve learned, especially if they feel like there’s nobody they can discuss it with candidly at church. (Too often, you run into priesthood authorities (e.g., bishops or stake presidents) who treat people like “we just don’t talk about these things” — as though you’re a toddler acting out by saying things you’re not supposed to. This is part of Satan’s plan to keep saints isolated from each other and from the truth, and such behavior has a much worse impact on the church than any single historical fact.) |
Dan, I read the book last year and it is probably the best “meta” issues book there is. It gets above the tactics and looks at worldviews and underlying assumptions. I’m grateful for Michael Ash’s work and it is one I highly recommend. |
DKL: good points, but deserving of caveats as well. There can be a tendency (and I have seen this in some of Dehlin’s work) to reach a point where one is seeking to find problems with doctrine or history to the point that their focus becomes one of constant skepticism. There can be a tendency to become prideful in this situation, and even to go as far as to accept the “darker” version of things without really looking at the issue, simply because it must not be “white-washed” if it has some dirt. In this way, people start inadvertently placing themselves in a higher bracket than some of their benighted fellow Saints who might not have ever heard of Rough Stone Rolling. There can come what Kevin Christensen called a “spiritual masochism,” or what Bushman described in people he met who approach him with a wink and a nod and say “I can TAKE it, what’s the worst you’ve got?” Suddenly, anything that appears a little too faith-promoting must be constantly questioned, people who argue against the new information are labeled as mere “apologists” who are either dumb or too crafty. The gospel becomes less about having made covenants with Christ and more about being able to point out various problems and foibles. I could go on, but my point is made simple in contrasting different attitudes toward doubt. Some see doubt as a virtue and others a vice, or sin. Personally I think a better approach is to see doubt as neither of those things exclusively, but as a condition and a tool of reasoning. This is a great little review and I’ve enjoyed the comments as well. |
Nice post and great comments by all. DKL I loved Dehlin’s article and found it very useful for myself |
BHodges, you’re right on the mark, and I agree with you 100%. There are people who fancy themselves sophisticated because they’ve developed a taste for simplistic skepticism, and they end up misplacing their perspective on the gospel in the process. The best way to look at our history is as a rich heritage, and the best way to view an inclination for enjoying history is as a hobby. |
Annegb and Aaron Brown,
|
(oops, previous comment went into moderation due to the links.) DKL, my position is that the church is true (IE, it’s God’s official church, JS really was a reak prophet, the BoM is the word of God, TSM is a prophet) in spite of the warts-and-all history of individuals and events, past and present. My take on Dehlin’s position, and that of some Sunstone-ers (excuse the label, but I need some kind of short-hand here) is that they are in essence saying “Hey, stay in the church ‘even though, it’s not true.’ Rather than saying “It’s still true, even though we can’t always explain the things that shake our faith”, or even “We believe/hope it’s still true, even though we can’t always explain things”, it’s as if they’re saying “It’s still good enough to stay in, even though we stopped believing the foundational claims.” I’m not trying to deny participation to anyone. The doors are always open to all comers. And testimony/knowledge of the foundational claims isn’t required. Saying “I believe/hope that…” is sufficient when the “I-know-that…” level hasn’t been attained yet. But something makes me uneasy about those who actively say “I don’t believe” (IE, they actively disbelieve) the foundational claims. Rather than trying to build the belief of those with shaken faith, some seem to be saying “it’s okay to disbelieve”. I don’t know if I’m explaining my thoughts sufficiently. |
Thanks for the great post and wonderful comments! I enjoyed Ash’s second book as well; he does very good work. |
DKL, thanks for the link to Dehlin’s article. |
Bookslinger, I’m that kind of Mormon, too — the kind that you describe yourself being. Only I don’t view the church as true “in spite of” the warts-and-all history. I view our history as a rich heritage of human striving toward an ideal or a goal — all done within the framework of a gospel that is uniquely complete and a priesthood authority that is uniquely efficacious. I view Dehlin’s work as a bridge — a way that someone can stay active while still working through different issues and arriving at a personal conclusion that she is comfortable with as an individual. |
Bookslinger, I agree with you in a sense; I don’t think Sunstone does a good job of balancing the intellectual with the devotional or apologetic. But maybe that’s not their intent, which is fine for other people, but not for me. I do enjoy scholarly treatments of Gospel topics, but I also have a hunger for the stories of personal change and instances of divine intervention that in my mind characterize living the Gospel. As for saying “It’s okay to disbelieve,” I won’t say that about the foundational propositions of the Church, but I have found myself saying that fairly often when I read the Old Testament… Another thing I find myself saying often is “It’s okay to redefine and adjust expectations,” which is often just as difficult a process as losing belief altogether. |
By the way, this talk from Wendy Ulrich is the kind of literature I am talking about, balancing scholarly thinking with a powerful personal narrative. For me, if revelation is not part of the discussion, I have a hard time feeling engaged with what is being said, and that’s probably why I don’t gravitate to Sunstone very much. John Dehlin had an interview with Richard Bushman a while back, where Bushman remarked that reading the program for the Sunstone Symposium just gives him a headache. I agree with that sentiment (though Claudia Bushman probably disagrees), but I’m also very happy that Sunstone helps to keep some people in the Church. |
Ellsworth, What brought you from generally being a Number One to generally being a Number Three (with respect to actual truths)? Do you think you would have been a more “effective” missionary if you had been a Number Three at the time. I see DKL’s point about letting people live in a blissful Number One state if that works for them, but I wonder if we would be doing a better service to our missionaries if we prepared them to be Number Threes before they left, or is being a Number One generally sufficient/effective for missionaries. I’m currently a priest quorum advisor and have 5 boys leaving on their missions in the next year or so. I battle with how much to prepare them for what they might face and how much to let them live in Number One bliss. |
I remember how unsettling it was to learn some of the difficulties found in church history. I felt terrible. I felt unsettled intellectually, but not spiritually. Spiritually I was able to recall sacred experiences the Lord had given me, when I did I felt at peace, which surpasses understanding. We’re dual beings. Intellectually we can experience cognitive dissonance, but if we’ve been given a testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost that will trump the dissonance. We get into trouble if we haven’t put in the spiritual effort a acquire a testimony from the the Holy Ghost. An intellectual PhD resting on a spiritual foundation equivalent to an eight grade education is sure to fail. Books like Shaken Faith Syndrome are useful in that they help us put some order to our cognitive dissonance. But without the foundation of a spiritual testimony to build our intellectual house of faith on, we’re sure to fall when the rain and winds descend on our house. The Lord has given us the Book of Mormon through the prophet Joseph Smith. If we follow the Lord’s counsel and “ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost”. With a testimony from the HG we can be settled and grounded and not be tossed about by the winds of cognitive dissonance. |
Jota G (24), The missionary question is one I’ve thought about a lot, and the fact is, I believe that everything I taught in the missionary discussions is factually true. I think I could go out and teach those principles right now with no problem, even though my personal definition of the word “prophet” now includes “compiler, integrator, organizer, editor” in addition to the seer & revelator titles. As Jared (25) pointed out, we can trust our testimonies, and the same is true of your missionaries, though their concept of prophets might change over time. If I were you, I would tell them that if they come across something that troubles them, they should not be afraid to ask questions and prayerfully seek answers, and be open to answers that come in unexpected ways. I’ve struggled with Gospel questions for years, but just last November I saw another miracle in my Church service that had the effect of putting all my concerns in perspective. We need to be open to those kinds of experiences and give them the transcendent value they deserve vis a vis our questions. |
I don’t know, John, I don’t keep track. I was just trying to say that WE think they’re infallible, THEY know they’re not. If they say God says it, that’s what they mean. Geez, I’d hate to have people falling over every word that came out of my mouth. That “unexamined life isn’t worth living” deal is crazy because if we start examining everything and making sure we do everything we’re supposed to do, we forget to live. Well, I’m saying this all stupid. Maybe it’s about moderation. People who take it all too seriously are the ones who are the most seriously disappointed when they find out the warts. Aaron, I love your last sentence. Love it. Well, I love what Dan and Bookslinger and DH Hodges say, as well. I wish there were more of you in the world. I agree with DKL about John Dehlin’s essay. I never got the idea that John doesn’t believe. He may not, but I heard immense respect for our faith. Many who come to a point of disbelief do not echo that respect and I think that has to have an element of testimony. My visiting teacher is our Relief Society president and she is a wonderful kind woman of faith. But her faith sounds rote-ish, rehearsed, and sometimes I want to ask her, “what does that mean, what you just said, do you have any idea?” We were talking about the church one day and I said, “You know, I believe in the First Vision and the Book of Mormon, but I don’t think it’s the end of the world if other people don’t.” I waxed poetic for a minute and she actually looked afraid to be listening to me. Fear. That’s what was on her face. I think it was fear that if she let herself think those things, the next thing you know, she’d be in a bar making out with a truck driver. Lots of reasons people stay active in the church; I bet half the people in sacrament meeting don’t even have a clue what a testimony is, let alone have one. Not that I know either, but still…. |
The problem is our belief in our prophets’ infallibility. For heaven’s sake. They’re men just like every other man. Mormons are just whacked. We say “nobody’s perfect,†but we don’t believe it. We think the prophet’s perfect, or our Relief Society president, or some other paragon of virtue we’ve set up on a pedestal. I’ve read it elsewhere that the main difference between Catholics and Mormons is that they profess the infallibility of the pope, but don’t believe it, while we profess that the prophet is fallible, but don’t believe it. |
On a hopefully related point, a friend of mine told me that yesterday (on the 5th Sunday) his Stake President came to their combined Priesthood/RS meeting, and said he was concerned because he’s had two members of his Stake leave the Church after coming across anti-Mormon material. He (the SP) said that he wanted members to be better prepared when exposed to this. He referred them to the Maxwell Institute, or perhaps fairlds.org, and said they should look up their questions. Then he brought out Daniel Peterson, and they role-played, the SP playing the “anti-Mormon”, throwing out objections like DNA and archeological evidence re: the Book of Mormon, and then Daniel Peterson answered them. When Michael Ash spoke at the FAIR Conference last year (and I think this is in the book), he talked about the concept of “innoculation”–if others are exposed to information BEFORE they hear it from anti-Mormons, they are less threatened. This argues that members ought to be exposed to at least SOME of these “troubling” aspects of our faith in official or quasi-official contexts (Seminary/Institute, Gospel Doctrine class). And yet I also sympathize with DKL when he says he doesn’t want to be the instrument of someone else’s shaken faith. And yet I also know some people who seem to enjoy pointing out these things; they don’t seem to be innoculating people so much as trying to get them to actually catch the disease of disbelief. So far as prophetic infallibility goes, we should all know to take things heard through the rumor mill with a grain of salt, and that something uttered by a Prophet of the Lord in General Conference carries more weight than what they might say in Stake Conference. Still, neithef of those comes to the gold standard of doctrinal reality, which is revelation announced and then sustained by the membership of the Church in General Conference. What do we do with things that make up part of what I call the “official Midrash” of LDS Doctrine? These are not, strictly speaking, canonized scripture. But they are still considerably more authoritative than the LDS faith-promoting rumor mill. I think Elder Packer has some wonderful insight, from a talk he gave some time ago at BYU:
You can find the whole speech here: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=7071 What this means in practice is that I think we should still be able to disregard counsel from one (or perhaps two) of the Brethren, and still be able to hold a Temple Recommend. But when things come out under First Presidency Letterhead, or as official Church statements/proclamations, those we probably are obliged to accept. But even here, my comments should not be read to mean that our burden to discern for ourselves truth from error, what to take to heart and what to disregard, is removed. That is only where it starts. |
I like this thread. |
Quoting Charles W. Penrose of the Quorum of the 12 and First Presidency in the early 20th Century, with names swapped out to make the point: “President Thomas S. Monson [originally Wilford Woodruff] is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and [even] when ‘Thus saith the Lord,’ comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill.†(Millennial Star, v. 54, p. 191). To me that means that even things on FP letterhead (many of which have been amended, revoked, and reversed over time) or “official Church statements/proclamations” require individual critical examination to “discern truth from error, what to take to hear and what to disregard”, as Jeff’s #30 said. |