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This is brilliant. It would be interesting to see a doctrine’s track over time. |
I think this is a really intriguing effort, Dan! I would suggest, though, that your analysis needs to be targeted to a specific timeframe. Otherwise, things get pretty convoluted. For example, Adam-God has been disavowed for quite some time, more emphatically since Spencer W. Kimball’s administration. That’s all well and good, but I’d suggest that your zero score for “Scriptural” may be highly influenced by Kimball’s condemnation, rather than whether a scriptural case could be made (as it was made in earlier days). I actually think it would be rather fascinating to line up some of these topics for an 1844 score vs. a 2009 score! As for polygamy, we get into the question of doctrine vs. practice, since the doctrine itself has not been disavowed, but the current practice is condemned. To muddy the waters further, we have Hinckley’s comment that plural marriage is “not doctrinal,” which arguably could mean a few different things! |
Nick (2), Good points. My criterion #3 reflects my basic belief that our body of teachings/doctrine can be simple and clean or complicated and messy; it started messy and has been getting simpler and cleaner since the early days of the restoration. Absent that view, yes, this exercise produces radically different results earlier in the restoration. |
Polygamy is not current… |
Adam-God was *actively* disavowed by the Church (in general conference no less) starting with the presidency of Joseph F. Smith, who was present as an apostle during the doctrine’s heyday. It is worth mentioning however, that the principle was never widely accepted by the church, something that Brigham Young complained in public about. |
How did you assign the weights? Just arbitrary? It would interesting to run a “discovery” algorithm against well-known doctrinal issues to see if we can sort out the weights algorithmically… |
Matt W. (4), Polygamy as we practiced it before is not current, but the sealing element of it is current. queuno (6), Yes, assigning weights to the criteria is an arbitrary exercise. Unfortunately different Church members — and even prophets and apostles — attach different weights to the criteria, and we even use different criteria. |
#5: I realize this claim is often made, but I’ve never seen any evidence to back it up, aside from Orson Pratt’s well-documented refusal to accept the doctrine. On the other hand, I’ve seen the teaching mentioned favorably in the journals of many LDS members and leaders. Most notably, the original “Lecture at the Veil,” dictated by Brigham Young to L. John Nuttall and Wilford Woodruff as part of their 1877 project to write down the endowment ceremony, directly taught the doctrine. I would have to say that Brigham Young, the LDS “prophet, seer, and revelator” at the time, had the authority to say what was (or was not) LDS doctrine, regardless of what percentage of church members accepted it. The same authority, of course, was present in Spencer W. Kimball, during his own administration as president. |
Dan – this is fascinating and an interesting approach to quantifying truth. The challenge is that one person’s rating is not how another may rate it, but it can allow the one who does the scoring to understand how they quantify their belief. |
Dan Ellsworth: this is really cool, and something I know I do subconsciously as well. Might it be useful to allow negative scores? For example, Adam-God would get a “-8″ in the disavowal category because it has been actively and rigorously disavowed, dropping it’s overall score to 11%. |
Devyn and BrianJ, I do think everyone does this weighted scoring process, whether consciously or not. And BrianJ, I did think about doing negative numbers on a couple of these. I think the 11% score for Adam-God is definitely more accurate. |
#8: I understand the public reaction to Pres. Young’s original and most explicit October 1854 general conference sermon was not exactly positive. It was (for whatever reason) even left out of the Journal of Discourses. Here is one witness:
Here is Brigham Young twenty years later:
The people dictating or presenting the St. George Endowment were most definitely not a preponderance of members of the church. I am aware of letters to bishops and mission presidents in the late 19th century who inquired on the subject, having never heard of it before. It was affirmed as an “advanced doctrine”, but one that was not actively taught in the church. I imagine it was well known, if not always believed in, by the older members of the Church. There is certainly reason to believe that Joseph F. Smith was one of the skeptics, given his later actions, although I do not have a source for his earlier skepticism handy. |
“letters from” that is..it was a California mission president who had never heard of it, the unit level dispute was in Bunkerville NV – and most of them certainly were aware of it, enough to make it a hot dispute. |
#12: The people dictating or presenting the St. George Endowment were most definitely not a preponderance of members of the church. I am aware of letters to bishops and mission presidents in the late 19th century who inquired on the subject, having never heard of it before. I was evidently unclear. Prior to the dedication of the St. George Temple, Brigham Young assigned Wilford Woodruff and L. John Nuttall (secretary to the FP) to commit the endowment ceremonies to writing for the first time. This was done with great care, as each segment was brought directly to Brigham Young for approval and/or correction. Finally, Brigham Young met with Woodruff and Nuttall, at which time he directed them to transcribe a lengthy lecture, which he then proceeded to give. Upon finishing his dictation, Brigham Young directed that this instructional lecture would be given at the end of the endowment. This “lecture at the veil” survived (albeit in gradually abbreviated/edited form) until April of 1990, at which time a few portions were incorporated into the ceremony itself, rather than as a distinct lecture. In other words, what I described was not “the people dictating or presenting the St. George Endowment.” Rather, it was an official portion of the endowment process, specifically dictated by Brigham Young. |
14: I am aware that the St. George Endowment was dictated by Brigham Young. My point is that unbelief in the Adam-God doctrine was so high that Brigham Young said he didn’t care how high it was in public in 1873. The St. George Temple was dedicated in 1871. I am not aware of any meaningful discussions of the subject in the Journal of Discourses from October 1854 onward. As I mentioned, the most explicit and extensive discourse on the subject was left out of the Journal of Discourses (making it much easier for some to deny the doctrine was ever taught at all years later – I had a friend who made a trip down to the Church archives just to verify that the discourse actually existed). The Adam-God doctrine became largely an esoteric thing, and not for long at that. In 1897 Joseph F. Smith said in a private letter that Adam-God was just an opinion and was not an official Church doctrine. By 1918, general conference talks were being given disavowing the idea completely, indeed claiming that Brigham Young never really taught it at all. |
How in the world would you pull that off if everyone over forty was taught the doctrine in detail, i.e. more than just a vague “folk doctrine” in passing? The relatively few people with decent memories of the St. George Endowment were probably in their seventies in 1918. Adults present for the October 1854 discourse would have been in their nineties. Those younger than fifty were probably one step removed from complete unfamiliarity with the idea. |
Nice, Ellsworth. Also, I enjoyed reading your comments, Nick and Mark D. |
RE: #14 Nick “This “lecture at the veil†survived (albeit in gradually abbreviated/edited form) until April of 1990, at which time a few portions were incorporated into the ceremony itself, rather than as a distinct lecture.” I was endowed a decade before 1990, in 1980, and received absolutely no lecture of any kind after passing through the veil. What are you referencing with this comment? |
[...] not a reliable prophecy by any measure. In one of my previous posts a while back, I argued that doctrinal reliability can be more or less quantified using a spreadsheet, so here is the White Horse Prophecy by the [...] |
I’m not sure how this system works in regard to that whole “personal revelation” thing we talk about in the church. I mean up until this point I’ve worked on developing a one on one relationship with this God being so that I could be directed in situations where I have questions about gospel teachings. Turns out that that idea is just too old school, I need some new modern thinking to bring my beliefs up to speed. With this new method I can see how it will actually free up more of my I’ve dedicated to keep this relationship through clean living and prayer. I’m excited to see what behaviors I can justify with this method, I may be able to find brand new hobbies that I never even thought I was eligible for in the past. Thanks. |
[...] and I no longer view the vast ocean of Church leaders’ doctrinal statements as authoritative unless those statements are weighed against a host of specific criteria. In Richard Poll’s classic discussion of the Iron Rod and Liahona models for approaching the [...] |