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But Jesus would be a world-class tenor, wouldn’t he? I have not heard this idea too much, sounds like the kind of thing a youth Sunday School class might get caught up in. RE: I think you’ve got the motivation wrong: he was not asking people to give all they had to the poor FOR THE POOR, it was for the benefit of the wealthy. Having the riches (and the accompanying human inclination to treasure them) was a stumbling block for the rich people as individuals seeking the Lord’s kingdom. As He said, the poor are ever with us. |
Not that I speak as an economic or ecclesiastical authority–that is just my take on it. No superlative powers here. |
David, I have to take Jesus as the Messiah and the literal son of God. Any inconsistencies in biblical accounts are not on Him, they’re on the writer. I’m uncomfortable with your characterization of Him as sinner. Of course He was not. |
Is it fair to say that Jesus would not be an expert on, or at least be utterly disinterested with, anything that didn’t build the kingdom or help someone progress to eternal life? I think I’m saying that Jesus would most definitely schedule a general priesthood meeting during kickoff of the Super Bowl. |
Annegb, I don’t think that DKL is saying that Jesus was a sinner, but, that he was just wrong about stuff. I don’t think that being wrong is a sin. It just makes you wrong. However, I completely agree with ESO. Jesus’ motivation wasn’t necessarily just for the poor. You think that Jesus should have preached supply side economics? http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2003/09/The-Gospel-Of-Supply-Side-Jesus.aspx You seem to be putting a very worldly view on Jesus’ actions. |
ESO – “I think you’ve got the motivation wrong: he was not asking people to give all they had to the poor FOR THE POOR, it was for the benefit of the wealthy. Having the riches (and the accompanying human inclination to treasure them) was a stumbling block for the rich people as individuals seeking the Lord’s kingdom.” That means that Jesus loved the rich more than the poor Because if he told the rich to give their money to the poor so that the formerly rich could get into heaven, he’s just condemned the poor to hell because they are now rich due to the recent gift. Why would Jesus hate the poor people so much that he would want to make it more difficult for them to get into heaven? I love the poor, so I keep my money in order to prevent the poor from becoming prideful unto their own condemnation. |
Somehow, I think Jesus’ political model when He comes to reign is going to be something that Glenn Beck would vigorously protest. |
The only biblical text that requires that Jesus be “sinless” is in Hebrews, though the BoM picks up on this theme often, which is why I think LDS are attached to it. While I am not opposed at all to a robust notion of Jesus’ humanity, I think that you have to account for those passages. Anyway, I find your assertion that #2 and #3 don’t belong to the historical Jesus to be quite odd and would like to know your argument. I am also not sure that #4 is an accurate understanding of Jesus’ teachings, nor that post-Enlightenment economic knowledge helps us understand how ancient economies worked. |
I am also not sure that #4 is an accurate understanding of Jesus’ teachings How did I misread? If His work and His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life or man, could that not imply he really doesn’t care about football? Obviously, he cares about us as individuals, but I don’t think he has an angel sitting on the goalpost ready to blow a FG wide right… |
John 21:25 tells us that “there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.” Developing divine football skills and mastering macro- and micro-economics are but a sample of these unwritten events. PROVE ME WRONG, YE DOUBTERS. |
queno, i was referring to the numbered “flaws” in the OP |
Amen to ESO’s and Ian Cook’s comments on Jesus Economics. While I scratch my head at the references in #2 and #3, I would agree that they pose the most probable conflict to our ideas of a morally perfect Jesus. However, I think that much of the conflict arises from our lack of context. For example, in God’s context, it’s justifiable to command killings and destruction. In God’s context, wealth and/or social status attainment matter about as much as shoe size. What meaning does family really have in God’s context, when we will only have our spouse in eternity, and our children and parents separate with their own eternal lives and companions? How imperative is our perfect Earthly behavior if we are kept from any empirical knowledge of God? Furthermore, how correct are our interpretations of God’s imperatives? In short, I think a critic of Jesus based on our paradigms and epistemolgies (especially enlightenment) falls on its face. If our knowledge had the capacity to describe eternity and understand exactly what constitutes “morality” in the universe, we might be able to make a more educated judgment. As it is, I think this question is like asking a bunch of kids who the best football player is. You’d get each person’s interpretation and each person could be right. Our knowledge about what constitutes perfection is horribly limited. If it wasn’t so limited, we might not have lovely pictures of Christ cuddling lambs and little children. I have seen some of these questions keep people from joining the Church when they otherwise would have. I think that a lot of faith comes into reconciling these “flaws”. Who knows, at some point we may be informed that Jesus was perfect on Earth by every standard God set and that these flaws were misrepresentations that were allowed to be perpetuated to test our faith. |
#10 Steve Evans, Some might include liberal politics coupled with reincarnation as a black man into those unmetioned developed skill sets. Others would include playing blues guitar and calling oneself “Eric Clapton.” |
I think I am the poster to whom DKL refers, and I stand by the position implicit in my comment. I believe in a God who, if He chose to, could help a person succeed in the stock market, could help a person win a football game, and could help a person be healed. I’m not saying he should or would in all cases, only that he could. And I’m not sure how he goes about doing that if he knows less than the rest of us about market economics, football, and medicine. The option DKL seems to be proposing is that Jesus doesn’t know how He actually effectuates the blessing of the lives of others, only that he says it and so it is done; that he is wielding a power that even he does not understand. Or, alternatively, his theory would support a less-than-omnipotent, deist view of who God is. I fundamentally disagree with those propositions. |
nasa, Jesus was black, get over it. And He is more liberal than your schoolbooks can imagine. I also believe that Jesus built my hot rod. |
Great post. I agree completely with some of the comments, however, that Jesus’ teaching of giving all to the poor was not for the benefit of the poor, but for the rich. To comment 3: I’m not sure how Jesus being incorrect or less than superlative is a sin. It is moral imperfections, not imperfections in skill or lack of knowledge, that are sins. Imagine the decreases in money spent on Prozac if everyone could get that straight. And yes, I accept Jesus as Messiah and the literal son of God–without spot or blemish, providing the redemption of all of creation. Within the vein of this post, I think a connection should be made with the general authorities. Too many see them as authorities on everything. “General” seems to extend well beyond their callings–as though their knowledge and grasp upon the gospel and position in the church grants them expertise in matters of psychology, medicine, etc. BKP and the little factory might be an example… If the mortal Jesus doesn’t have to be an expert in all things, and he’s God, why elevate Joseph Smith and all subsequent general church officers as though they are unquestionable? Most Mormons will tell you that its the Pope, not the Prophet, that’s infallible . Then ask them what the Prophet’s done wrong and they seemed befuddled. Infallible? No. Unquestionable? Yes. |
I like it when Anne calls DKL “David” |
DKL,
I don’t see this in the text of the Gospels, although the writings of Paul suggest that the early members of the Church believed the Second Coming was imminent. He had to remind them in 2 Thessalonians 2 that there would be a falling away first, followed by the rise of Barack Obama; apparently, a fixation on the second coming was sucking oxygen from more important work in the Church, as it does today.
I think that’s a mischaracterization; rage against those who disagree with him implies an honest disagreement between people acting in good faith, rather than Jehovah’s fierce condemnation of people who had perverted His law in order to exploit the most vulnerable in society. Christ’s continual polemic against the family throughout the gospels Christ never once railed against the family; he only taught that families would be broken up over his teachings, and people should be willing to forsake any relationships that would prevent one from following Him. Christ’s teaching that giving all of one’s property to the poor would help the poor I’m with ESO here; Christ was not commenting on redistributionist economics; it was nothing more than a commentary on the young man’s inability to part with worldly goods, as evidenced by the subsequent take-home lesson about rich people, camels, needles, etc.(assuming the translation is correct). |
To say that Jesus was wrong is absurd. Can we know what it is like to be the son of God? The apostles in all likelihood made embellishments and typos in their accounts of Jesus and his economic stances. With an errand from God in mind, I can say that JC would not be enthralled in the coaching strategy of sport to come, but being the son of God, he would be allowed some insider bonuses, no? |
Great post, DKL. You’ve given me a lot to consider but I do have a few thoughts - 1. I feel like your point of view limits Jesus Christ just as much as the Jesus/Super-bowl fallacy exaggerates his abilities. Do your comments represent the other side of the pendilum? Maybe that was what you intended. 2. I don’t see errors in the teachings you have listed. I see possible interpretations of those teachings that could be considered errors. To elaborate, I have also questioned Christ’s “vitriolic rage” in Matthew 23. But I have heard enough interpretations of that scripture to reconcile it with Mormon theology. Another factor is mistranslations and lack of information. We just don’t know the full story. I am not a Jesus apologist, just trying to highlight what I took away from the post. |
DKL, How do you square this with your superlatives about Christ’s beers (see comment 17)? I suppose you’ll say that in the comment I referenced you are referring to Jesus’ bar-tending skills in the Millennium, not Jesus during his mortal ministry… or was that just one of the things he happened to be good at? |
Luke 2:52 states: “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” That verse puts no time frame on when he stopped growing in wisdom. Matthew 27:46 says: “…Jesus cried … “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” That verse implies he didn’t understand everything perfectly even at the very end of his mortal life. I don’t know about specifics, but nothing listed in the post comes close to “sin”, imo. |
6. Jota B I don’t see anything in this scripture or ESO’s comments that hint at Jesus caring more about the rich. I’m confused where you are getting this. The underlying message IMO is charity and taking our focus off material wealth. |
Jonny J, To say that Jesus was wrong is absurd. Can we know what it is like to be the son of God? Well, aren’t YOU a son of God? So, what’s it like? |
18. Dan I get the humor, but I am a huge supporter of Barak Obama. The rise of George W. Bush is a much better fit for the son of Perdition (aka George Senior). The history books will prove me right on this one. |
Drew – Here’s the logical trail (DKL no need to point out the gaps, I know they’re there): Jesus said give your money to the poor and follow Him. ESO’s explanation was that this instruction was more about helping the rich escape the pride and sin that come with being rich than it did with providing economic support to the poor. (I actually agree with that). If the rich give their money to the poor, the rich become poor (relative to former position – thus helping their chances of getting into heaven) and the poor become rich (relative to former position). The newly rich (i.e. old poor) are likely to become prideful because of their riches and will no longer be capable of getting into heaven. I, tongue inserted in cheek, drew the conclusion that since Jesus was giving the rich advice that would get them into heaven at the expense of the poor (who become “rich†as a result of his directive), he must like the (old money, now poor) rich better than the (new money, now rich) poor. |
As long as we can agree that Jesus had Nordic features, my faith remains unshaken. AB |
As luck would have it, these teachings are likely the result of later interpolations by Christians … That idea does NOT contribute to your position that Jesus was wrong about anything. It would only mean that someone (other than Jesus) was a bad historian. Then again, I thought Interpolations was another of those epistles written by Paul … |
The problem with determining that Jesus was wrong about anything is that it then leaves everything he said up to some kind of criticism or debate. One thing I’ve been pondering a little bit lately is the line where Jesus says to Judas something about “that thou doest, do it quickly” (John 13:27) … as I understand it, Jesus knew he was going to be betrayed and so he was basically urging Judas to get it over with. I’m not sure I know how to understand that, as it would seem to me that it would be Jesus’s job to help someone avoid sin, not encourage them to continue on towards that sin – particularly such a devastating act as betraying the Savior of the world into the hands of those who would have him killed. Then again, God (and the Son of God) have wisdom I’ll never possess. So usually, rather than try to determine that deity is ‘wrong’ about anything, I try to understand why any particular action/instruction was in fact appropriate. |
26. Jota G I see now. 27. Aaron Hillarious! |
By the way DKL, the four things you wrote as examples of problems with what Jesus taught – none of them really concern me all that much. You are better at argument than most of us – and I think you could easily come up with reasons as to why none of those are really problems at all. So I encourage you to do better. Surely you can come up with something Jesus said or did that is actually more difficult to accept than what you have there above. 3 Nephi Chapter 9 might be a place to start … |
I kind of agree with DKL and disagree. If Jesus were a football coach when he was on earth before resurection, yes – I don’t think he would necessarily win every game. If he came back to earth now, as a fully empowered god – yes, he could win every game. My 11 year old son asked me yesterday if Jesus ever made any mistakes. My honest answer was yes,I believe he did. He was learning just like all of do – mistakes are how we learn. Did he ever sin, absolutely not. Sin is intentional disobedience. I see the Savior as an example of how to get to perfection as a leading participant, not a being that only stood at the sidelines and watched us learn and grow while He remained all knowing and never changing. When I see it though my son’s eyes, a sinless, yet mistake making Jesus is much more relational than an always perfect in all things at all times Savior could ever be. |
Jesus’s life and miracles to me are a fascinating mystery to puzzle and ponder over. I believe he never committed sin, but I don’t comprehend how that was possible. In regards to whether he made mistakes or was ever wrong about anything – I just don’t know. I suspect at times he cried as a baby and woke his mother up. That’s kind of where I would start with my speculation as to what it meant for him to be human. Then again, maybe he didn’t. Jesus as Messiah is in his own special category. So it’s hard to know. |
queuno #7, I suppose it is possible Beck would not like that particular political setup when run by fallible men. When it was instituted under Enoch, it worked. When it was tried by Joseph Smith, it did not. Is that the fault of the leader or the followers? So far as I’ve seen with Beck, he is a proponent of the Constitution and liberty and for a far less intrusive style of government based on free agency. Some would call that libertarian. |
The gospel according to DKL knows more than Jesus Christ? The only flaws I see is DkL pseudo Christianity. You always want to assert your objectivist conservatism into Christian thought. Such intellectual piety. Please give verse that Jesus taught to give all to the poor will help the poor. Again your class only perspectives come in strong and clear. Even so giving huge somes of ones funds to the poor is good such as building a health clinic for fight diseases for instance or make sure there is clean drinking water. Indeed your blessings will be rewarded upon high. To say there is a flaw in Jesus teaching on the subject is absurd . He was testing the possible follower to give up all of wealth because he was too beholden to his riches to serve Jesus and God. Perhaps you would like to revisit your convenants you made in the Temple about the Law of Consecration. Please tell me what flaws to you see with this doctrine. I would not be surprise you will find many. |
I’ve gotta sing with the choir on this one… Discussing if Jesus made mistakes seems pretty futile to me. I cross the line regularly in my comments, but this discussion just seems disrespectful. Even if Jesus did make mistakes, what does it matter? Do you think that gives us a pass to screw up? |
Steve #15, you can thank Gibby Haynes for helping to drive that Hot Rod to the next level, musically speaking. I will agree, though, that Jesus is a master mechanic, or at least he seems to play one on MTV! |
Rick (34) – Sorry, but I don’t give Beck that much credit. At least, when I’ve tuned him, I’ve never heard split hairs that well. |
I’ve lost a post from about an hour ago. When I try to resubmit it, it say it is a duplicate post and won’t let me post it. |
I may have posted this here before but I sort of think a simplified version would be like this. Privately owned/privately controlled is capitalism. I also see the united order in the parable of the talents. It can be viewed as an economic model as well. Heavenly Father grants us our portion and it is our responsibility to make it grow. If we bury it and produce nothing, how are we growing the kingdom of God? We are given our agency to do with that stewardship what we will. If we outgrow our plot size in the city of Zion we will be allowed to increase our stewardship responsibilities (we have increased our talents). To say that economically that Jesus was strictly leftist to the point of communism is false and to say He is rightist to the point of pure capitalism is wrong too. |
If he came back to earth now, as a fully empowered god – yes, he could win every game. Well, I say it depends on whether or not his team players are resurrected, Celestialized beings, or if they’re just plain old, fallible, human beings. I suppose, though, you could make the counterclaim that Jesus’ foreknowledge of the results of every possible callable play would result in a sure win, because He would know which plays would be executed successfully, and which ones would fail, and He would not call the plays that would fail. At which point I would make the counterclaim that this would be cheating. |
Somehow, I think Jesus’ political model when He comes to reign is going to be something that Glenn Beck would vigorously protest. The good news is that since Mr. Beck would protest against it, he won’t be there in order to be able to protest against it. Which makes my heart glad unto mighty gladness. |
“I also believe that Jesus built my hot rod.” Oh man I love that song! |
DKL, How gracious of you to condescend to let an imperfect Jesus save your soul. PS. DKL is one of my all-time favorite bloggers — but sometimes he needs a good kick in the a**. |
Mark N, Elder Beck has been to the temple. I’m sure he’s aware of the Law of Consecration and how the democrat or republican parties are the last people to properly implement the Law of Consecration. Taxation is just an evil shadow of charity. |
There seem to be a new sport bashing our Lord and Savior. There are no limits. I think a visit to the Bishop is in order. If the orginator of this thread published such comments openly at BYU while a student or a faculty he would be expelled. He even questions Jesus Christ Godhood . To say there are moral flaws in Jesus Christ teachings is to say some of His teachings are immoral. Pray tell where does he the critic get his inspiration what is moral? Look out Bro. All emails goes on a heavenly record |
“If the orginator of this thread published such comments openly at BYU while a student or a faculty he would be expelled.” It’s funny that you mention that . . . |
I don’t think Jesus intended sell all you have to be general economic advice, but rather specific advice to one, or at most a handful or people. I think there are principled arguments to be made for relative to virtually all the other instances of his purported stupidity as well – generally along the lines of teaching a principle, not making a dissertation. |
While DKL was penning this screed, three young men wearing baggy pants gathered on his lawn and uttered no fewer that 16 obscenities. Since no one was there to stop them, the Second Coming was pushed ahead by 12 minutes. Don’t say I didn’t warn you. |
#47. To whom are you referring to “of his purported stupidity”. |
The general tone of the OP is that not only were many of Jesus’ teachings flawed, but they were completely off base in fundamental respects which if followed would lead to unnecessary human suffering. I take that as a round about way of saying “naive” or “stupid”. I don’t think it is reasonable to believe that Jesus had less common sense than your average 12 year old. |
re: 45 What in the world does BYU have to do with the OP? Who cares what gets one expelled from BYU? Wait, don’t bother responding; whatever nonsense about BYU you come up with will be be completely orthogonal and a waste of time. It took a moment for me to realize the Beck referred to above was Glenn Beck. Wasn’t there a recent BYU quarterback named Beck, who is now being passed around from NFL team to NFL team. Maybe he could use some Jesus quarterback mojo, or aren’t all BYU players automatically vested with such mojo? |
re: 51 What in the world does mojo have to do with the OP? Who cares if BYU quarterbacks are vested with mojo? What, don’t bother responding; whatever nonsense about mojo you come up with will be completely orthogonal and a waste of time. |
So that nobody else has to look it up, orthogonal means: 1. Mathematics. a. Also, orthographic. pertaining to or involving right angles or perpendiculars: an orthogonal projection. 2. Crystallography. referable to a rectangular set of axes. |
Apparently, orthogonal is also the word of the day at rbc’s house; cf. the ten foolish virgins go to sacrament meeting thread. |
Re: 54, Nah, just trying to provoke a snarky response over there from you like above here-#52. Alas, still waiting … Nice to see you’re following me around now take the bait already. |
#56. Snarky? There’s nothing snarky about 54 and 52 was your own comment. |
Jota G, Oops, replace 54 and 52 with 55 and 53 respectively. Thanks for catching the mistake. |
DKL, You really don’t think that Jesus if playing QB could read the defense and detect blitzes by reading the minds of the defense? He could then audible a new play that would go for a TD. |
But what if his receiver still dropped the ball? |
45. Elder Rick M How did you learn Glen Beck has been to the temple, and has the Priesthood? I’m just curious because I’ve looked for more information on his standing in the Church and have been unable to find much. |
@60 – Maybe this explains David Tyree’s miraculous grab; Christ *must* have been involved… |
@61 – There are various youtube clips of Beck sharing his testimony, and I believe I saw a link in the last week where he says that he has a calling of (a) an EQ instructor and (b) serving as a counselor/adviser to a stake addiction recovery program. |
ESO, I think that the hostile/condemnatory tone of many of these responses belies your assertion that the Jesus/Superbowl fallacy is primarily confined to youth sunday school classes. |
DKL, What do you expect? Them’s fat’n werds. |
Forget football. The real question is whether Jesus uses a steal or a sacrifice for advancing the runner. |
If the leadoff batter reaches first, Jesus steals second. He’ll sacrifice over to third with the first out, so that a sacrifice fly can bring in the run. But in my heart of hearts, I believe Jesus is an AL fan and loves the DH. |
Jesus is like me. He’s an AL fan who hates the Yankees and the DH. |
Jesus hates the Red Sox and the Yankees equally. He favors humble teams like the Indians or the Rangers. |
Left Field: Forget football. The real question is whether Jesus uses a steal or a sacrifice for advancing the runner. ROTFLMAO! That really cuts to the heart of the matter. |
Re: #40 Rick You said: “Privately owned/privately controlled is capitalism. This vastly over simplifies the differences and attributes. As well as it doesn’t square with accepted economic theory definitions. (GO/GO is closer to communism, not socialism.) A more complete categorization would be something like this: Resources Owned by individuals or governments Even that limited set of characteristics gives at least 256 possible “economic systems”, in reality there are many more possibilities. My stab at defining the Law of Consecration in terms of those 8 factors would be as follows (and yes living in such a system would drive [the public persona of] Glenn Beck totally crazy): Resources Owned by individuals or governments (Government – the Church would be the government and it owns everything.) Resources Controlled by individuals or governments (Ultimately Government – all usage decisions are subject to Church fiat, but within those guidelines individuals could maneuver.) Production Decisions (What to produce) made by by individuals or governments (Both: The Church would set broad directives and Individuals optimize within that framework.) Production Decisions (How to produce) made by individuals or governments (Mostly Individuals would figure how to do it – but only to the extent it is part of their assigned or acquired stewardship.) Prices Determined by markets or governments (May not exist, to the extent they do the law of Consecration probably won’t work.) “Profits” Disbursed by individuals or governments (Government – The Church.) Taxes on Profits exist or not (100% taxed.) If Taxes exist their use is determined by a social choice mechanism or by command of the ruling elite (The ruling elite [Christ].) As a practical example of how the above might play out consider the actions of the Church (Brigham Young) during the initial years of settlement in (what became) Utah. Brigham decreed that there would no *private ownership* of Land, Water or Timber. He (and the Church) eventually gave up on the land, but held out on timber for decades and on water until 1880. Now on to Perfection, Mistakes, and Sin With respect to the major component of the thread itself. It think it suffers from a lack of clarity. At issue is what constitutes perfection? The OP is stating the idea that perfection relates only to sin, and (implicitly) that while Jesus was on the earth with a mortal body he did not comprehend much eternal knowledge beyond the cultural around him. Hence he would be limited as to what he could know about since it hadn’t yet been invented. I think this approach is fundamentally flawed as Christ introduced new stuff that the culture he was in had not thought of yet. Basically anything which God decided was important Christ would be taught. That said he obviously wasn’t going around breaking records and astounding people with his accomplishments. The old Testament prophets understood he would not be desirable and not distinguished. So I don’t think perfection has much to do with whether he had yet been taught a particular piece of knowledge, but whether he had sinned. Sin by definition means an act or thought which causes a person to become unclean to some degree in a spiritual sense. Literally it is this which allows death to have a claim (spiritual and physical). By definition if Jesus Christ was in any degree unclean he could not have accomplished the atonement and resurrection. So we know he did not sin, but we also know that he did not understand everything at that time. Now the OP posits that people today tend to see only Perfection and sin as the possible states of nature for the “mortal” Christ, I think what the OP poster is getting at is that a third state of nature is possible, and it is making a mistake from which no sin results; i.e., there is no unclean stain on the spirit as a result. I can accept that idea, but I think the probability of it having occurred in Christ’s case during his sojourn on earth is remarkably low. JMO John Harvey |
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