There are choices . What about the choice to allow a living unborn to be born? The measure of a society morality is how we preserve life.

How appalled we are by the linked article is kind of irrelevant. We are not her target audience. Her target audience is women who are conflicted between having children and having a career. This is her message to those people:

…You don’t need to get an abortion to have a big career…
…It doesn’t matter whether you have kids now or later, because they will always make your career more difficult. There is no time in your life when you are so stable in your work that kids won’t create an earthquake underneath that confidence…
…And I am not sure that my life would have turned out worse if I had had kids early. I am not sure it would have turned out better. I’m not even sure it would have been that different…
…There is little certainty. But there are some certain truths: It’s very hard to have an abortion. And, there is not a perfect time to have kids.

What’s done is done. Let’s just hope her message gets through.

I found this fascinating. To me the message is that there is never a right time to have kids and for some people an abortion is an option – whether right or wrong. When I was a missionary in NYC, nearly every convert had been involved in an abortion, such that there were usually 150 second baptism interviews (required for those involved in abortion and other things). The Mission President could not do them all, so the APs did them. I interviewed hundreds of people who had been involved in abortions. The thing that always struck me was that for nearly all of them, the guilt associated with the abortion is what led them to look for forgiveness from God. I still remember the powerful feeling of forgiveness when they would pray to ask God to forgive them. So I went on my mission very pro-life but after hearing the heartbreaking stories of why abortions occurred, I shifted to a pro-choice viewpoint. I cannot judge another’s actions as I am not in their circumstance. While I would not choose such a course, others do and that is their choice. There were certainly some stories where I felt like Anne, that maybe the abortion was the best choice since that child would have had no chance at all. Suffice it to say, that I am now personally pro-life, but pro-choice for everyone else. In addition, it also makes me realize how many people are sexually active without protecting themselves – it just makes no sense.

Yeah I’m like Devyn. Pro life but pro choice. We’ve been down that road. I was pro abortion before I understood the eternal nature of life. It changes perspective. Because what do I know but that Ginny’s baby grew up and did wonderful things with his life?

Bookslinger do you know this woman? I guess she infers regret but there’s still an air of uncertainty.

I can’t put my finger on what bothered me about it. Well the late term abortion bothers me.
And can you have a successful family and career? Maybe in that woman’s circle it was harder. In my own community there are multitudes of women who work and do well at their jobs and appear to have happy families. I don’t know; the piece seems unfinished.

Maybe it’s a cautionary tale for young businesswomen considering abortion. Certainly an out of wedlock pregnancy doesn’t put much of a cramp in a businessman’s style but a pregnant, unmarried defense attorney ordoctor or department head might lose credibility. No answers here.

Anne: No, I don’t know her. But look at the narrative and how it progresses. There’s a flow and a change between then and now. Yes, she’s giving the reasons she had _back then_, but there’s a definite encouragement to others in the conclusion of her piece that they don’t have to do what she did. Her conclusion is negating all the reasoning she went through for the abortions. She may not explicitly have said “mea culpa” or “I regret it”, but her opinion has definitely changed on the matter.

She later went on to have two children _and_ the career, and realized that children and a career are both possible.

And the abortions were not “late term” as I understand it. The first was 2nd trimester though, but it was not 3rd trimester according to the way I read it. As I read it, I think it was between 14 and 15 weeks. States vary about when abortions can be had, and she doesn’t say at what point “illegal” would have been in her state. I also read it that Planned Parenthood also was not equipped or authorized to do abortions past a certain point, even if that point was still legal in that state; that it required a hospitalization or a higher level facility and procedure.

I have had similar experiences being involved in baptismal interviews with women who have felt forgiveness for abortions. Every mature woman we baptized in Russia had an abortion at some point in their young life. And remarkably, they were all remorseful, acknowledging that it was not the right thing to do. Only then did the feeling of forgiveness flow.

I think this woman has felt the same thing- that her choice was regretable, and perhaps a waste. What bothers me about this story, annegb, is the friends’ reasoning for abortion, that life is something meant to serve us for our convenience. The gospel teaches us the opposite. Life is not therapeutic, though there may be golden moments. Life is growth, pain, struggle, and sacrifice so that we can overcome our circumstances.

That is a huge reason I am pro-life with the usual exceptions for rape, endangerment of health, etc. I may not understand others’ circumstances, but I don’t think that many women getting abortions understand their own circumstances- much like the regret and confusion this woman has conveyed in her story.

Danithew, murder is not an unpardonable sin. Even if abortion is murder, one can still find forgiveness.

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I have strong, ambivalent feelings about abortion; I’d describe myself as neither pro-choice nor pro-life. But my reaction to this piece was similar to Anne’s. I do recognize the narrative arc Bookslinger and others point to, but there was something about her retrospective attitude toward her abortions, particularly the way she situated and continues to situate them in terms of her career, that left me profoundly disturbed. Perhaps it’s the implicit moral equivalence between career and children, as if sacrifices in one realm are somehow no more significant than sacrifices in the other. Then there’s the moral lessons she drew from managing to balance her two children with her work, which seemed to be simply that children are an obstacle to career, though not an insurmountable obstacle, at any time one has them.

The meaning she seems to have drawn from her experience and her inability to forget her abortions and the men she conceived with is that her concern with career timing was misplaced. That strikes me as an extremely morally flimsy conclusion to append to such a searing history.

A child is a child, whether it’s wanted or not. And there’s no such thing as a mercy killing, even (and I would say ESPECIALLY) if it’s a child.

As someone who might have been an aborted child, I struggled with these two ideas for a long time. You think a child doesn’t know when s/he isn’t wanted? It hurts when you genuinely have to ask yourself Would my mother’s life have been easier if I had never been born? Would she have been happier? What would have happened to me if she had made that decision? Where would I be now?

But after years of prayer, I’ve learned that these are not the right questions to be asking. There is no truth to them, and asking them will not lead to greater understanding of anything except the ruthless nature of the adversary.

No child should ever have to feel the way I felt growing up. Period. No child deserves to feel that pain, and no adult has the right to cause it, I don’t care how sad the story is. The “solution” to kill a child and have some asinine idea that it’s somehow a merciful sacrifice for ANYONE’S benefit is a LIE. Do we not remember how Christ came first to the children? Do we honestly think He will honor such that would MAIM them?

The solution is to realize that sex is NOT a right and to treat the sacred privilege to be co-creators with God as the responsibility it is–if not to come to the joy rewarded for doing so, then to prevent the suffering that would come if we didn’t.

Paradox, I’m very sorry for your experience. I was basing my opinion at the time on my own finite view of life and my feeling that it would have been better had I not been born. I didn’t realize that we all have to be born on earth.
I thought a child aborted was a child saved from a life of hell. In Ginny’s child’s case I felt just awful thinking of the life that child would face. But now I think who knows? I sure don’t know how it turned out except she had the child for a very short time.

Bookslinger, maybe you’re right about how far along she was. I assumed she was at least four months along. Isn’t that late term? It seems pretty late term to me.

Chris.

ZD thanks for clarifying my opinion :). You put your finger on it.

Devyn and Daniel, I think you capture the essence of Christ’s attitude towards the women involved.

I have such mixed emotions. But somehow abortion must offend our spirits in some elemental way because I don’t know any women who have had one who are unaffected.

I didn’t read this lady’s history, but I assumed she was LDS. The fact that she’s not explains a lot.

Sam – Sure the Church is pro-life in most instances as I am personally, but I think that pro-agency (as you call it) seems to make more sense to me than a strict ban on abortion. Others would disagree but making abortion illegal at this point would likely cause many more problems than it solves.

Did anyone else not understand this comment from the article: “People think abortion is such an easy choice–they say, ‘Don’t use abortion as birth control.’ Any woman who has had one will tell you how that is such crazy talk.”

Isn’t that essentially what she did? I mean, I like that she is (or appears to be) using herself as a cautionary tale, but what else is an elective abortion if not post facto birth control? Is it just the terminology that is irksome to the pro-choice crowd? Is it something in her semantics? What am I missing?

Jimbob,

I agree with you. Elective abortion (97% of abortions) are essentially BC. Her first abortion was because she was not ready to get married and she did not want to stop being a prof athlete. So she valued her career over the life of a 15 week old fetus. I have no compassion for her and consider what she did to be “like unto murder”.

I have much more compassion for those who have had an abortion if….

1. life was in danger due to tough medical conditions
2. rape & incest
3. Fetal abnormalities. Not Downs though. serious not survive type of abnomalities
4. They are repentant

The culture of abortions for BC that is prevelant in our society is a great sin. The vast vast majority are simply BC.

There are very few “appropriate times for abortion.”

When a pregnancy is the result of a choice to engage in a sexual relationship, abortion is simply a selfish escape from the consequence of that choice.

Our society has become so self-indulgent and irresponsible (i.e., unwilling to appropriately accept consequences from the exercise of our agency) that we now tolerate the destruction of life instead of delaying graduate school for 9 months, or being “treated more harshy” by professors.

So, so sad.

Something off about men condemning abortion. Easy for you to say.

32 – Thanks Anne – that was my thought exactly as I read through the comments. Some of the most vociferous voices are male.

Being adovacates for the sacredness of life is cease to do violence to one another which encompasses war, torture, physical and mental abuse, starvation, and killing the unborn. We should hold life as the premium social value.

Jota – I found it

“Something off about men condemning abortion. Easy for you to say.”

Agreed. And by the same token, there’s also something off about all these women telling men that they need to remain faithful. I mean, women don’t have male apparatuses or male hormones, so they shouldn’t have much of an opinion in the matter.

Thanks, anne, for your discretion in not calling me a putz, I guess.

But the comment was actually meant to flesh out why you think my opinion as a man is worth so much less on this issue. If it’s just that it’s an issue that women are disproportionately affected, I guess I’m not sure why my analogy is inapt.

Anne,

Even though women are typically the primary caregivers for children, would it be within the scope of what I am allowed to have an opinion on to say that women should not be allowed to drown their children after birth?

Why, you’re welcome,jimbob! :) I was calling people that all over the place for awhile there. It’s such an interersting word. A better analogy would have been a man who chooses not to father a child after it’s born.
Men can walk away, a woman cannot. I just don’t believe a man has a say in this debate at all. Tell you what, strap bowling balls on every day, making them heavier and heavier, for nine months; drink ipecac for at least every day for three months; then have somebody break your leg and lay there for four hours while somebody pushes on it.

And get back to me on it.

mfranti, thank you. you said it better than I.

I’m not defending the act of abortion itself, but I am defending a woman’s right to decide what happens to her body. And for those men who say, “she should have made that decision BEFORE she got pregnant” again, I say, men do not have to make that decision. So it’s easy to be glib. I can make decisions for others all I want, if I know they’ll never affect me.

And Jota, you are too smart not to know what I’m saying. Sure, there are men who would father a child forever no matter the circumstances of their conception; maybe they’d stand by the woman and pay for the pregnancy. My heart goes out to those whose hearts have been broken because a woman has chosen not to bear their child. And still, I believe a woman should be able to choose.

That doesn’t mean I think it’s the right decision. But, sometimes it might be. And it might not involve rape or incest.

I’ve said this before, but a woman who’s raped, especially today, doesn’t need to undergo an abortion, per se. She can have whatever needs to be done, done right in the ER, or at least shortly thereafter in the hospital.

That incest thing, well, I’ve seen several scenarios there. A child or young woman gets pregnant and has that baby and it’s a family secret. A child or a young woman gets pregnant and by the time it’s no longer a secret, she’s too far along to stop the pregnancy. Dad, or Uncle or brother gets arrested, but she has that baby. The level of ignorance and secrecy that permeates incest often precludes ending the pregnancy. I don’t know of any aborted babies—surely there must be but that’s just something men threw in to make themselves look compassionate. The incidents are so seldom as to be meaningless in the debate.

The blogger who did this post seemed to me to be a bit cold to the consequences of her choice, equating it to a career decision. But mfranti hit the nail on the head. And it doesn’t have to be young, it can be a 40 year old woman who’s just found out she’s pregnant with her 6th child and her husband just left her.

There are all kinds of circumstances and only God knows what is in our hearts.

And it doesn’t have to be young, it can be a 40 year old woman who’s just found out she’s pregnant with her 6th child and her husband just left her.
There are all kinds of circumstances and only God knows what is in our hearts.

i don’t know agb, you did a fine job of expressing many of my thoughts.

abortion is an ugly thing. we can all agree. but forcing a pregnanacy and then a child on a woman that doesn’t want it is potentially more damaging to all parties, imo, than the regret of abortion.

there will be long term consequences of both, to be sure. but the former actually involves additional life that can be destroyed by a cycle of abuse, neglect, poverty, etc.

i was a fetus that should have been terminated but she did what was expected of her because of religion and culture. she had me and then checked out emotionally because she was 16 or 17 and too young to handle motherhood. good thing i had a teenage aunt to help look after me when my mom was hungover and passed out on the couch and a grandmother to look after me during my high school years. but their care didn’t stop the pain and the constant feeling of rejection. hell, writing this brings back so much of the pain.

so, I might believe that a fetus growing in MY uterus is a baby to be, but for many women (and men) that is not their truth. i’m pretty sure if a fetus had the same value as an actual living baby, there would be no acceptance from the church in cases of rape and/or incest.

let us try to remember, though it’s difficult to separate OUR religious and moral and ethical values from the thought process, that abortion is a case by case issue that is so deeply personal to the individuals involved that it’s really hard for anyone (like religious folk with a belief that marriage and families are central to exaltation) to fully comprehend how difficult and impossible an unwanted pregnancy is.

Christ taught and showed us what compassion looks like. i believe that compassion is the first place we look to in a discussion about women and abortion.

for me, i was lucky. i would have been lucky no matter what my mom’s decision was. maybe i would have been born in france?

Anne,

I appreciate your point much better now. Thanks.

I must say, though, that if the inability to become pregnant should mute all male voices in this debate, then logic dictates that it would mute many female voices here as well, since many women here are beyond child-bearing years. Should they lose a voice too? And what about the possibility that many of the remaining female voices here are likely in relatively stable marriages in which an unexpected pregnancy might be cause for alarm, but wouldn’t be a catastrophic event, such as in the children-having-children or incest situations you describe above. Should their voices be heard, since the “need” for an elective abortion would be much less likely in their situation?

One reason that men _should_ weigh in and verbalize their beliefs on the pro-life side is to change the hearts of some _men_ who would be likely encourage their baby-mommas to have an abortion.

I believe there are many women out there who would otherwise want to have the baby, but their boyfriend/husband/family/someone, is encouraging them to get an abortion, like the woman who wrote the article.

So, by putting forth the pro-life arguments, men can help counter some of the pro-abortion encouragement like the kind that woman received.

This issue should _not_ be about forcing women to abort or not to abort. This issue should be about influencing people so they change their hearts and minds.

Therefore, we also should work on changing the hearts of all the potential baby-daddies, at least so they don’t pressure their baby-mommas into abortions, and hopefully even encourage the mother to give birth (assuming she’s physically capable of it, etc), and then either get married, or put the baby up for adoption.

#22 I question your assertion that pro agency is a license to kill the un born. Agency is limited since there is another higher value of not harming a livng being.

Yes, Melanie, compassion is the answer here. Bookslinger, I like the way you expressed it. I don’t like men calling for witch hunts and blanket condemning women.

I also believe that if more men owned up to their own responsibility in pregnancies, there would be less abortion.

On the other hand, I believe there are women who use abortion as birth control. I don’t know any, but I’ve seen them on TV.

Of course there should be compassion for the life of the mother and the unborn. When it comes to these complexing issues the right to life should be paramount thus the prefrerence is to encourage adoption. Abortion on demand or as means for birth control is immoral which has been so pronounced by our LDS leaders . What a woman does to her body is a private matter but there are ethics involved concerning a doctor’s license to commit abortion or not.

The morality I assert are not mine but comes from Christian tradition. Moral laws are very uncomfortable to those who do not want to acknowlege such laws thus there is a deaf ear. No one is shouting so try to understand another perspective.

I am just stating agency is not unlimited. Ones agency maybe a detriment to another’s well being. Our society is based upon social contracts that regulates behavior and acceptable societal moral norms. Abortion is one of them which is attested in detail when you read Roe vs. Wade decision.

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