Non-mormons tend to be insanely judgmental and closed-minded, so you’re right to be apprehensive. I’m reminded of Newell Bringhurst’s experience going into the US Army in the 1960s, when a black sergeant for whom he had an immense amount of respect asked him what his religion was. Bringhurst had already been disaffected from the church, but he completed his self-extraction from Mormonism that moment, when he couldn’t bring himself to tell this man that he belonged to a church that discriminated against him, and he responded that he had no religion.

Now I know you’re not disaffected from the church and that racism is different from opposing the redefinition of marriage, but it’s the same kind of drive. Personally, I don’t think that you’re being a coward. It’s important to behave in a way that allows those around you to behave their best, I can totally understand not wanting to subject yourself to your host’s intolerance.

Orwell – I think you’re handling the situation just fine. The phrase “Every Member A Missionary” doesn’t mean you ruthlessly spam everyone you meet with the “Golden Questions”. It simply means you remain alert for opportunities to introduce the Gospel when they naturally arise. Use the Spirit as your guide.

One example is if your host begins a discussion on architectural styles or cathedrals. This would offer you the opportunity to introduce the Salt Lake Temple into the discussion as an example of Gothic architecture in America. If the discussion then turns to Prop 8, simply relate what the leadership has said about homosexuality and how they discriminate between mere “orientation” versus actual practice.

BTW, you don’t always have to be “building the kingdom” 24/7. We were meant to actually enjoy life on this earth as well. When the GAs push and prod us, they’re merely doing their job; it doesn’t mean we always have to keep our noses to the grindstone. Relax and enjoy your host’s hospitality; exemplify Gospel principles simply by your own behavior.

If I were in your situation and they ask me if I am LDS, I would say yes. It is Paul’s dictum not being ashamed in believing Jesus Christ is my savior. To go further we are to show tolerance and love toward all people regardless of their sexual behavior or life sytle. I do believe marriage is between man and woman but to deny SSM may be violation of the equal protection clause of the Constitution. However being a guess in his home I would not so much preach but try to understand the host’s perspective on the subject.

AJ: Non-Mormons tend to be insanely judgmental? Isn’t that statement itself judgmental? Some are some aren’t. Just like some Mormons can be judgmental and close-minded and some are not.

This is a convoluted statement. You seem to be saying that the statement is judgmental, because you believe that specific instances might either corroborate or contradict it. Not only is this is a non sequitur, but it is incorrect in almost every way possible.

First of all, the statement “Non-mormons tend to be insanely judgmental and closed-minded,” is not judgmental, because it describes a group and not an individual. What would be judgmental would be to say, “Because he’s a non-Mormon, he’s insanely judgmental and close-minded.”

Second, statements of the form “[some group] tends to be…” describe a distribution within a group, so that you run afoul of the fallacy of division when you claim that specific examples contradict it. I could say, “Men tend to be taller than women,” and it would be silly (and fallacious) for you to object by saying, “yeah, but some men are taller than most women and some men aren’t.”

Nick: …all the while secretly condemning them to the telestial kingdom from the other end of their dinner table.

Orwell hasn’t condemned anybody, Nick. You’re the one here treating people with scorn and derision.

Nick:

How witty you must feel, taking advantage of these men’s gracious hospitality for weeks on end, all the while secretly condemning them to the telestial kingdom from the other end of their dinner table! After all, it’s cheaper than a hotel, so Jesus would think it’s perfectly marvelous to deceive these men into thinking that you respect them, wouldn’t he?

I don’t know what to say to such irrationality, Nick. I have written nothing to justify even the least of these accusations. The conclusions you have drawn about me are, quite frankly, offensive and insulting.

You’ve really exemplified my point; reactions like yours provoke the kind of anxiety that this whole post is about (from the opposite perspective as well, gays coming out to Mormons). My host’s sexual orientation in no way affects my ability to like and respect him (nor does mine, for that matter). He currently likes and respects me (to the best of my knowledge), but I would feel really bad if knowing that I am Mormon caused him to think otherwise. Therein lies my anxiety — I would hate for him to do what you have done: draw unwarranted conclusions about my character based on other experience / biases rather than on his own interactions with me.

Does this professor call the man he shares his life with “boyfriend,” or is that your own choice of term?

As a matter of fact, he does (rather, the equivalent term in the local language here). So what? Straight people live with “boyfriends” and “girlfriends,” why do you want to deny him the privilege of using the term just because he’s gay?

If the latter, how do you think your hosts would feel, if they somehow happened across this blog?

They would probably be embarrassed for you.

I feel “scorn and derision” toward someone who’s willing to hide his true nature, just so he can save a buck by leeching from a host he essentially despises.

That’s all very well, but don’t presume that you are describing me. Oh yeah, I’m paying them, too.

ESO, I can relate to a lot of what you are saying. It’s great that so many people react that way — I have seen it myself. The difference here is, since I am living in close quarters with these people, an adverse reaction would make things pretty uncomfortable for all involved.

Jack Mormon, I get where you are coming from. Unfortunately, it doesn’t keep my “upbringing” (still searching for a better word) from flogging me with irrational guilt.

B Tippetts, I’m not planning on denying it if they ask. I agree that tolerance and love towards all is the crux of the matter here.

Orson, I apologize if you feel that I misunderstood your attitude in the original post. You expressed a sense of guilt for failing to proselytize these men. To me, that implied that you feel they need to be “corrected” by preaching your faith in the first place. I’m glad to hear that this wasn’t true.

You’ve really exemplified my point; reactions like yours provoke the kind of anxiety that this whole post is about…

Well, if you “came out LDS” to your hosts, with the accompanying expression of anxiety over your “duty” to preach to them, then yes, that would be likely to prompt a reaction you want to avoid. :-)

As for your hosts calling one another the equivalent of “boyfriend,” I certainly have nothing against someone choosing to do so. Sadly, I’ve seen many anti-gay activists use the term derisively, with the intent of trivializing the couple’s commitment to one another, and avoiding the terms which are more commonly recognized as respectful, such as “partner,” or in some lucky cases, “husband” or “spouse.”

In any case, I appreciate you clarifying your post, Orson. I apologize for misunderstanding your intent.

Manuel:

I would opt for honesty and integrity. Meaning I would openly state I am a Mormon. Although I am not really bothering to put myself into your shoes because I don’t have all these psychological burdens you seem to have. In my mind, you don’t want people to judge you because you are already judging yourself, and I am going to venture quite a bit and assume you don’t feel good about what your are doing; and that is not because of your “upbringing” and having to share the gospel or be a “coward.” I think it is because you feel you are a hypocrite. Otherwise, why bring it up?

I don’t agree that honesty and integrity necessarily require me to come out and announce that I am Mormon, just because I am. Do we expect people of other religious beliefs or political views to walk around doing that? No. They are private matters that people are free to discuss to the extent that they feel comfortable.

I think you’re reading a little too much into my “psychological burdens,” but perhaps that’s my fault for how I worded the original post. Do I feel like a hypocrite? Not in the least. Rationally I am 100% okay with how I have acted. As I have stated repeatedly, I am not actively trying to hide it; and, should it come up, I’m willing to jump into the fray.

As far as my “upbringing,” I do feel there is a small, irrational part of my psyche that says “you’re a coward if you can’t at least leave a Book of Mormon” (edit: because they are not Mormons, not because they are gay, specifically), but I chalk that up to cultural conditioning more than anything else and have enough discernment to ignore it at my discretion. But, it’s an interesting phenomenon, so I thought I’d bring it up.

I would consider Nick Litersky’s first paragraph (#9) and objectively and honestly decide how much it describes your situation.

I think I’ve already addressed Nick.

I do feel that the way I have acted reflects who I really am, but that doesn’t mean that I’m chomping at the bit to discuss Mormons with my friends here. Why? Well, I’ve seen one too many irrational reactions like Nick’s to want to risk it in this situation. And this isn’t like discussing it with a regular friend or a co-worker — at the end of the day we’re still all stuck with each other in the same apartment for a while.

Incidentally, this living situation was arranged for me by the host university. I didn’t know what things would be like until I arrived. Let’s assume for a moment that I am the most homophobic, gay-hating fundamentalist (small f) on the face of the planet. In the same situation, would you still counsel me to opt for your version of “honesty and integrity?” Or would playing well with others seem the best, and most respectful, course of action?

The more you go with your silence, the more you may feel as a hypocrite inside and the more you will appear as one if they ever find out you were a Mormon but decided to never mention it (with the miserable excuse of “well, they never asked!”).

I don’t buy it — at least not in this context. If you find out that a co-worker or friend is Jewish tomorrow, are you going to call them a hypocrite because they didn’t announce it to you when you first met them? It’s not like being a convicted sex offender, where you have to proactively register as “Mormon” everywhere you go. It comes up when it comes up. Sometimes it doesn’t. So what? If the roles were reversed, and a gay man were staying in my (Mormon) home, is he obligated to tell me he is gay if he doesn’t want to?

Nick:

You expressed a sense of guilt for failing to proselytize these men. To me, that implied that you feel they need to be “corrected” by preaching your faith in the first place. I’m glad to hear that this wasn’t true.

Okay, I can see how you could have inferred that. See my comments to Manuel to clarify that point. (I wrote it all before I saw what you wrote, so bear in mind that any references to “Nick” don’t reflect your last comment.)

No worries about misreading tone, such is the way of the internet. Besides, I write so much on this site that does make fun of things that I really can’t blame you for that assumption.

By the way, thanks for giving me the opportunity to say that your comments were “offensive and insulting.” That always gives me a thrill. (My one selfish regret is the hit the comment total is going to take because we no longer have anything to argue about.)

I’ve observed an odd sort of behavior among many believing LDS, when it comes to being friendly with certain “outsiders.” It’s the “I like you, BUT” pattern, as in, “I think the world of you, BUT I don’t approve of your choices.” It’s as if being friends with someone automatically is construed as an endorsement of that person’s every action, and so the speaker needs to “clarify” that they’re still “righteous enough” to carve out an exception to their friendship. (I hasten to point out that I’m guilty of the same pattern, in my own past, and I’m now embarassed about it!)

If your LDS membership comes up, Orson, I’d just warn you against the “I like you, BUT” reflex. Being true to your own faith doesn’t obligate you to let a friend know what you think is “wrong” with them, especially when it’s something as close to the core of their being as sexual orientation.

Being true to your own faith doesn’t obligate you to let a friend know what you think is “wrong” with them [...]

I agree – and again, I can see how you might have thought that is what I was describing. On a related note, though, let me clarify that I don’t equate sharing the gospel with telling someone that there is something “wrong” with them (though, unfortunately, there are those that do, however unwittingly, e.g. the way most anti-Mormon protestors – and admittedly some Mormons – share their faith).

By the way, Nick, I feel obligated to tell you that I don’t approve of your life choice to call me Orson. I do not endorse it. Repent.

I think you’re reading a little too much into my “psychological burdens,” but perhaps that’s my fault for how I worded the original post.

Oh, it’s not your fault. I was aware of that in the beginning, that’s why I said I was venturing and assuming, by this I was implying that I was going to read more into your writing and that I may be off. Because of your answers to other people and myself I have learned much more about the situation than by reading the original post alone.

If the only feeling you have about not disclosing your religion is that you are not complying with “opening your mouth” in a proselyting way, then I completely agree with you. In my case, I would use the situation as an opportunity to let the professor know who I am and how I feel and act, thus enriching more his knowledge of the situation, since you already described him as knowledgeable and sophisticated. These are the type of people who are more likely to see beyond the stereotypes some have created about us. I would use it as an opportunity to let him know we are not hateful and biggoted and we can be open, civil and honestly friendly with all.

Of course, only you know the situation well enough to be able to better predict how these things would play out.

I do think honesty and integrity does require us to let people know who we are in some circumstances. Especially if we are the recepients of any type of benefits. But that is a personal view. I respect if you don’t feel the same way or if you don’t think this circumstance falls in this context.

Do I expect others to tell me what their religious views are? Well, I just don’t want to make a Jewish friend uncomfortable by inviting him to my Christmas party to eat stuffed pork… but you are right, it is not necessary.

And now to your question:

Let’s assume for a moment that I am the most homophobic, gay-hating fundamentalist (small f) on the face of the planet. In the same situation, would you still counsel me to opt for your version of “honesty and integrity?” Or would playing well with others seem the best, and most respectful, course of action?

Absolutely! I am not sure what you mean by playing well, it seems to me that “playing along” would better describe not being open about your views. And that would be far from respectful in my opinion. If you are the most homophobic, ga-hating fundamentalist on the face of the planet, I would recommend you do not accept the arrangement, quietly look for another alternative (which I am sure you could find) and save a lot of grief and pretension. But that’s just me.

It is a fact of life that we need to have cordial, civil and friendly relationships with those whose politics and religion do not match our own. For this reason, avoiding topics of conversation that might cause conflict is one of the foundations of polite behavior. I don’t see the big deal in avoiding religion or partisan politics at the dinner table.

I think we sometimes forget the 11th article of faith, which basically says that Mormons believe in giving everyone else freedom and respect. It’s a sound tenet.

Just out of curiosity, if the situation were reversed, would you allow a gay couple to lodge with you in your own home?

B. Tippetts,

What I find interesting is your reasoning. “I would assume they would feel their behavior is appropriate.” It sounds as if you feel it is your job to make them feel bad for their behavior through your rejection, and they should feel it is wrong, and you should make sure you send that message, because your religion teaches it is a sin. Making them feel bad about who they are somehow accomplishes something in the way of righteousness between you and your religion.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe tolerance has its limits, and when it comes to their household, people should have the right to choose what they tolerate and what they don’t. It’s just so akward to read your reasoning.

We are commanded that we should not worship gods or idols. It is a sin to do so. Would you let a Hindu person stay in your home, although he may worship a figure of Ganesh at night? A Catholic that will worship a figure of the Virgin Mary? Or would you not welcome them because you wouldn’t want them to feel what they do is appropriate, because worshiping idols/gods is wrong because your religion teaches it is wrong, and so it is your job to use your rejection as a tool to make them feel bad about what they do?

I’m not sure what, but something about this just sounds bizarre to me. Not your position about the issue, but your reasoning for your specific actions.

Maybe someone already said this, but I just couldn’t read anymore comments. Too much righteous indignation from every angle. To me, this is a simple question. Do you tell people you are mormon, or not? It’s not as though you’re hiding something. I think you would appear preachy and, well, strange, if you were to simply announce that you are a mormon as if it were a confession. If the question of religion ever comes up, then you should state your religion. By doing so you are not condemning your host or his life choices. If he is up to speed on prop 8, he will draw his on conclusions, good or bad. If he chooses to discuss it with you, then you have an opportunity to demonstrate that church members really are not interested in sitting in judgement of others (well, most of us anyway…) Part of your job as a “member missionary” is to just be nice and not embarrass the rest of us, so to speak. Then, when the subject of religious affiliation does come up, you have already demonstrated that you are a good person with compassion and tolerance for all people. The reaction people have to your religion is then completely on them.

#22:
By the way, Nick, I feel obligated to tell you that I don’t approve of your life choice to call me Orson. I do not endorse it. Repent.

Ouch! So sorry! I recant, I recant! :-)

#23:
But would not Christ have the same impact among the sinners toward repentence while accepting them but not the sin? How would this apply if he was again a among same sex partners ?

Good questions, B Tippets! I think many factors come into play here. We can look at the story of the woman caught in adultery, for example. Jesus basically shamed her accusers out of testifying against her, and then let her know that he did not “condemn” her. At the same time, he urged her to “go and sin no more.” If anything, it seems to me that he demonstrated that the person was much more important to him than whatever “sins” they may have committed.

As for Jesus’ reaction to a committed same-sex couple, it’s honestly hard to tell. He was noticeably silent on the issue, and Paul’s writings arguably refer to a then-current system of idolatrous prostitution. If Jesus visited my home today, I expect he would treat my partner and I with utmost respect. If he is truly all-knowing, he would fully understand that being gay isn’t a matter of making “rebellious choices,” and he would understand that my partner and I genuinely love each other in the same sense that a mixed-sex couple do. I wonder if he would be more concerned with how we treated one another in our relationship, than with our “sin.”

Re #27

If my gay nephew ask to stay over night with his partner at my home I would say no.

B. Tippets, let me ask a follow up question. If you were in the same situation as Orwell, would you accept the hospitality of a gay couple and lodge with them?

(I asked my original question in #26 to Orwell, and I hope he’ll reply.)

MoHo,

The best answer I can give you is that it depends. I don’t know your nephew or the particulars of his situation, and I wouldn’t be comfortable deciding without being more acquainted with the situation. But, here is how I would react in two possible scenarios:

Situation 1: Your nephew is a college-aged boy that wants to bring over his boyfriend. Can they stay over? Yes. In the same bedroom? No. I wouldn’t let a straight nephew in comparable circumstances share a bedroom with his girlfriend either.

Situation 2: Your nephew lives with what he considers to be his “life partner” (or whatever term they choose). They might even have kids or something. Would I let them share a room? I would consider it inhospitable and disrespectful if someone didn’t — regardless of a host’s personal beliefs.

jm,

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

annegb,

You are a Mormon (although to tell the truth, I thought you weren’t even a real person) [...]

You’ve said this before and I wish you’d elaborate. Whatever made you think I wasn’t a real person? When did you begin to suspect that I actually might exist?

I just moved in to a new house. The lesbians across the street brought over a delicious peach crisp as a housewarming. Was I obligated to tell them that I’m a Mormon that voted for Prop 8 before I accepted the desert?

(That’s not a hypothetical–it’s true.)

Also, why when Orwell mentions his host’s boyfriend do I imagine Jean Gerrard’s boyfriend Gregory in the wonderful movie Talladega Nights?

You answered a slightly different question than I posed

Oh, yeah, sorry. I didn’t go back and read things carefully and I conflated it with the nephew stuff in 34.

I doubt that being Mormon by itself would be a problem, particularly if you’re like ESO in comment #5.

If, OTOH, you voted for prop. 8 and/or worked to help pass it, then that’s likely to be a source of friction. But it’s not a question of others judging you for being Mormon, it’s a question of taking responsibility for your own actions and their consequences.

chanson, I live on the other side of the country, so Prop 8 is a non-issue as far as personal involvement.

Sam, I have met way too many sophisticated, educated, self-styled “open-minded” people that are very bigoted about a lot of things.

#37:
I believe that most people belonging to any group are insanely judgmental and close-minded.

Ergo, DKL, are we to assume that it is your belief that members of the LDS church are “insanely judgmental and close-minded?” Are we likewise to assume that it is your belief that you, as a member of a “group,” are “insanely judgmental and close-minded?”

Nick Literski: The fact that you, DKL, consciously ignore the fact that Orwell and I cleared that up many comments ago, says more about you than it does about me. It’s been quite clear that Orwell does not meet the description in my comment, and my “scorn and derision” doesn’t apply to him.

I’m commenting on the fact that you assume very negative things about people who disagree with you. The fact that I brought this up after Orwell corrected your mistaken assumptions means that I’m obnoxious, but so does everything else that I do, and that can’t possibly be news to you or anyone else who occasionally reads Mormon blogs.

Nick Literski: Ergo, DKL, are we to assume that it is your belief that members of the LDS church are “insanely judgmental and close-minded?”

In a word: yes.

Nick Literski: Are we likewise to assume that it is your belief that you, as a member of a “group,” are “insanely judgmental and close-minded?”

I’m totally open to that possibility. We all have our blindnesses.

Sorry Nick I thought you were mocking him. You do seem sort of violently upset by this situation. I know you made your peace, hopefully, with Orwell, but I don’t understand why it bothers you so much. What is your recommendation to him, in practical terms?

Orwell I got mixed up with you and Burgess and I’m always wondering who is real and made up around here. It’s probably lame but I’m fairly confused much of the time.

Gst, food trumps everything. No way would I emphasize my religion at a time like that. I’d reciprocate and get a great food exchange going. I’d be the religion of food.

DKL, are you playing with our heads? Because surely Mormons are the most judgemental people I experience. You’ve experienced that…

I have to say that times have changed. I’ve never had an unmarried couple stay in my home in the same bed.

My Jessie always stays at her mom’s house when she and her boyfriend come to town. But times have changed so much that I might let her in the future. Bill would probably not like it at all so maybe not.

On the other hand I would probably not let my nephew amd his partner stay in the same room. Actually what we would probably do in both cases is set them up in separate rooms and not ask questions. But the gay part, Moho and Nick, I have to admit, would be more uncomfortable. Bill would have a terrible time with it. Not in an Archie Bunker way but just in an older generation solid citizen what is the world coming to way.

Then again, maybe not. We talk openly with my nephew about who he’s dating. Having never had the situation come up I can’t say for sure.

I want to get back to hiding we’re Mormons. Orwell’s situation is only one case, I get nervous telling people I’m Mormon in certain situations. Like if I got stuck on an elevator with Oprah I might not bring it up. I’ve been treated badly because I’m a Mormon and I’ve been treated badly by other Mormons because I’m not Mormon enough.

But I’ve avoided the subject before to be sure.

Ahh! I knew DKL was going to ensue his endless semantics war. I should know better than to write this, but I am opinionated, so what the heck? I just hope DKL doesn’t have to battle himself this same way in his own progression, that would be quite a journey. I think deep inside he knows his statement was generated hastily and innacurately. But that very thought turns me into a pretentious, illogical, impractical, and well… insane speculator. :)

Manuel: “Non-mormons tend to be insanely judgmental and closed-minded,” is one heck of a hasty generalization, a seemingly sheltered and ignorant point of view, and in my experience a false one, since usually the opposite seems to be true. You are implying that anyone outside the church has this tendency to be “insanely judgmental,” and that somehow people inside the church have less of this tendency? Do you really believe that? You need to meet more non-Mormons, there’s a whole world out there.

I do really believe this. And it doesn’t imply what you say it implies — not logically at least. I believe that most people belonging to any group are insanely judgmental and close-minded. Thus, a fortiori, most non-Mormons are insanely judgmental and close-minded.

It does imply what I say it implies and logically. You are making a distinction between two groups and the distiction is integrated in the term “Non-Mormons,” making the clear counterpart group the “Mormons.” You are making an assertive statement that the former group has a more likely chance to have a certain characteristic; logically implying that the excempt group “Mormons” differ in contrast to the counterpart group regarding said characteristic. Denying this distinction makes your statment meaningless and illogical. Since your assertive statement is rather discrete and not truly quantifiable, I will conclude the usage of your “fortiori” as a random and baseless speculation.

Manuel: In my experience, judgmental and closed-minded tendencies are most often found in groups that feel a certain amount of self-righteousness…

Detailed theories of who is and isn’t close-minded are simply elaborate rationalizations for being insanely judgmental and close-minded. That’s why they’re so common.

Well, according to you. Additionally, I was far from offering a “detailed theory.” I clearly stated it was my experience and therefore my opinion. On the other hand, assertive statements on who is and isn’t closed-minded and insanely judgmental that lack any quantifiable or statistical or experimental background, and also lacking observational and/or experiential/empirical foundations, are both illogical and impractical.

Manuel: Nevertheless, I still find that within those groups only a minority would qualify as “insanely judgmental.” Many would qualify as judgmental, but not really to an “insane” level.

Merriam-Webster lists the following entry among it’s definitions for “insane”: “lacking any logical or practical basis” (”insane.” Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com [3 Aug. 2009]). I maintain that my usage of the term “insane” is correct both stylistically and referentially.

When people behave in a judgmental way due to their own dogmas, they don’t do so “lacking any logical or practical basis,” that is exactly what their dogmas, religion, politics, experiences, school, traditions, likes or dislikes provide: the basis of their logic and practicality. Therefore I maintain your statement is wrong and exaggerated.

Gosh! I just realized what a monstruosity my text looks like with all the typos I make. Oh well, I don’t get paid to blog.

On a happier note, DKL, I feel like I totally owned you! :) So, I’m very proud of myself. Is that illogical?

(By the way, I mean this in the light hearted and playful way, I need to state it because tone is not well conveyed through text)

Manuel: On a happier note, DKL, I feel like I totally owned you! So, I’m very proud of myself. Is that illogical?

If it makes you feel better about yourself to think that, then far be it from me to burst your bubble by intruding upon it with reality.

Wasn’t it President Kimball who said, we warm them and then we warn them? Or something like that? I think the best thing you could do (imo) is convey a genuine sense of respect and kindness toward them. Be a loyal friend and servant as was Ammon to the Lamanites, and let the chips fall where they may. Your goodness toward them will pave the way toward thoughtful open dialog faster than any evangelizing ever could.

Mis dos centavos.

I want to apologize to this group of being so blunt. I hope I have not offended any one. This former roomate in DC had sexual perversions and is not reflective only to the gay and lesbian community. I am just expressing my experiences and in some ways has affected my biasis and judgments. I do have flaws.

Here’s a “real life” example of the “who can sleep (just sleep) together” game, and how it can play out:

Two friends of mine had been living together as partners for a few years, when one of them received a call from his mother (a devout Catholic), informing him that she intended to visit him and his partner, and that she planned to stay in their home, as a houseguest. Naturally, my friend told her that he and his partner would be delighted to have her stay with them. Imagine my friend’s surprise, however, when his mother told him that out of “respect” for her, he and his partner were absolutely not to sleep in the same bed with one another (in their home) during her visit!

Orwell, I think that this really gay photo (of Vladimir Putin) might help your host understand why so many Mormons object to gayness.

Nick Literski: DKL, perhaps you’d like to elaborate for us, on what exactly makes the photograph of Vladimir Putin “gay.”

Vladimir Putin + no shirt = gay. It just does. We call this sort of thing an epistemic primitive. See also here, here, here, and here (warning to readers: some of those links lead to photos that are super gay).

You’ve noticed that only borderline totalitarian world leaders like being photographed with their shirts off?

Surely, DKL, a person with your astounding mental acuity knows better than to unilaterally declare an epistemic primitive. Unless you are able to demonstrate authority equal to that of your own deity, it would be foolish for any of us to assume that “DKL spake, and it was so.”

While I don’t share your homoerotic fascination with Vladimir Putin, I do understand that power and/or wealth tends to have an aphrodesiac effect for many people. I’d encourage you not to become carried away with your excitement, however, lest you spark an embarassing international incident.

#63:
He’s definitely “trying too hard.” I wonder if he rides horses, shoots rifles, goes fishing, etc., when the cameras aren’t poised for his attempted “macho outdoorsman” portrayal? ;-)

Ok DKL and Nick you guys are weird. Kind of funny but weird

Putin looks silly the way Max Zorin looks silly. On other words: creepy.

I was once placed by a temp agency at a Presbyterian church in Colorado, working for the youth pastor. On my first day, he asked me if I was a Christian, and I answered simply, yes. I wasn’t trying to hide the fact that I was Mormon, but as the days went by and it didn’t come up, I started to wonder whether I was being deceptive. Admittedly, I was also nervous about how they might react to me as a Mormon, having encountered quite a bit of hostility from Christian friends growing up in that area. And, like you, I wondered whether I was shirking my missionary duty on some level.

After a few weeks, the pastor finally asked me what congregation I attended, and I told him it was a Latter-day Saint congregation a few miles away. He didn’t really react. Later we were at lunch with a new intern, and the intern and I began talking about his mother dying recently, and I shared with him some experiences I’d had around the time my sister died. We talked about the healing power of the atonement and the power of the scriptures, and when the pastor asked me a question about something Mormons believe along those lines, I thought the intern was going to fall over. He was completely baffled that we could have just had that connection, that mutual understanding about Jesus, and that I could be Mormon.

I really think that if that intern had known I was Mormon from the beginning, he would not have been as open to the kind of sharing that we did. Because that happened first, and he knew it was a real spiritual connection, it left him with the cognitive dissonance of having to somehow reconcile that a Mormon could have the same spiritual insights and understandings that he did. Which I frankly think is a good thing.

I like to think of this as the “Ammon model”, as opposed to the Alma/Amulek model, for instance. There is no one right way to be a Mormon and talk about your religion, and every situation is different. I personally think that letting things come up naturally is better, and that if you act like it is normal and not a big deal for a Mormon to be friends with gay people, then they will take their cue from that and it won’t damage your relationship. My liberal friends are pretty good at separating their feelings about me from their stereotypes about Mormonism.

Before my middle child started kindergarten, we had him in a private, Church-of-Christ (?)-run pre-school right around the corner from my house (less than a 5-minute walk), just for a year. When we signed him up, we were asked if we were Christian, and we said that they were. They didn’t ask for any qualifiers, and we didn’t volunteer (other Christian schools in our area don’t let you attend if you’re Mormon).

Toward the end of the year, we were invited to parents’ night — basically, a BBQ dinner with the staff, etc. It was held in their version of a gym that we’d have in our chapels (minus the basketball standards and court) — big concrete flooring and space suitable for different types of events.

I got my first tipoff that this wasn’t a casual meal when we walked in the door, gave our name to the woman at the table (our son was only there for one year, so we didn’t know very many people, and he only went 3 days a week), and then we were introduced to our escorts for the evening — an elderly couple who sat on the “board”. This was a recruitment night, targeting the parents who didn’t belong to the church. I had come immediately from work, wearing a white shirt and slacks (more on this later).

So we get seated at a table with this elderly couple, as well as the wife of the youth minister. We get our food, and the elderly woman is chatting my ear off (she’s seated immediately to my right, my wife is to my left). At some point, the woman asks me what church I belong to. I falter a bit, because I know where this will go, and I’m really enjoying dinner, and I don’t want to cause any scene where my son might get booted a few weeks before the year ends. The conversation goes something like this:

Elderly woman, hard of hearing: “So do you have a church.”
Me, in between bites of very good brisket: “Yes.”
Woman: “How nice, where do you go?”
Me: “Oh, a Christian church over on Willis Lane.”

(Sidebar: In the city I live in, the LDS chapel is across the street from a Catholic church and there is a Kingdom Hall and at least one other church on the same street. There may be another one as well, but I think it closed. It’s a nightmare driving during major holidays because everyone from every church is there at the same time, except for the JWs. Anyway, I was deliberately being obtuse by saying “christian church” and mentioning the street.)

Woman: “Oh, that’s very nice.”

(Five minutes of eating pass in silence.)

Woman: “So, what did you say was the name of your church?”
Me: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (putting deliberate emphasis on the first half)
Woman: “Oh, that’s very nice.”

I glance over at the youth minister’s wife, and she picked up on it. And she left the table 2 minutes later, never to return.

Good brisket, though.

Queno, My twins went there last year and graduated. They even got a NIV Bible as a graduation present. I know of 7 LDS kids at that school last year. This year there will be about 10. I am not sure that the admin at that church realizes how many LDS kids attend it.

I told my wife I did not want to attend the parents night. I figured it was a recruiting attempt.

Ah, c’mon, bbell, your taking “in my shoes” too far. I’m not asking what people would do in the exact situation, just similar contexts.

Not a single comment on my #58 above? I thought sure someone would chime in on that story! :-)

Heh…she’s not my Mom, thank goodness! My Mom is convinced that the sun rises and sets on my partner! :-)

test

Sorry, B Tippetts, they got caught in the spam filter (reading over them, though, I’m not surprised that they did – too many permutations of the word “sex”). I tried to approve them, but then they disappeared. I don’t know what happened. (I’m being serious, I really don’t know what happened to them.)

I’ve had other issues with my admin login today, too (other things have been disappearing). You’re welcome to try again — if you avoid some of those spam filter buzzwords it will keep them from getting caught up in the filter until someone notices them.

B. Tippetts, You have to be invited to be a guest blogger.

“God is acknowledged as the divine creator of all things so it stands to reason that God created homosexuals. He didn’t discard his creations as being abominable, instead he blessed them with wisdom and a larger than normal capacity for the love of their fellow human beings.”

I don’t see how anybody could read anything into this other than what I have written. I have worked with homosexual couples in the health arena for many years and I do acknowledge that their capacity for love of their fellow human beings is greater BUT my main point is that they are God’s creation.

“Should you be asked your religion and you were to say that you are a Mormon, I doubt very much if your hosts were so lacking in Christian ideals that they would ask you to leave. If, however, you lacked sufficient Christian moral strength to acknowledge the good that is obviously surrounding you and not allow what you see to moderate what you have been taught, you add the sin of intollerance to the sins of pride and vanity.”

Again I have been very clear here in what I have said. I have not said that these people are Christians but that they are not lacking in Christian ideals. Or are Christian ideals only available to practicing Christians?

Why do I sense an enormous persecution complex here? What do Mormons do in America that earns them such aprobation and hatred? Is it the fashion to weep and wail that nobody loves or understands a Mormon? Do they eat babies (as I was assured Catholic nuns did when I was a child)? What deep dark secrets are they hiding that cause what appears to be knee-jerk reactions?

Or is it a simple victim mentality – I am what I am but I won’t say what I am because you will pick on me if I do?

92: The god of this blog.

More importantly, does she/he/it require human sacrifice? If so, do we get to nominate?

I still wouldn’t indulge it, and if that meant that she didn’t visit then so be it.

My thoughts exactly. Believe it or not, the “momma’s boy” actually did make his partner sleep on the couch during the mother’s visit. For me, that would have been reason to seriously re-evaluate the relationship!

The God of this blog just requires that you comment regularly. For a while, Nick, you were a bit remiss, but you’re now in good standing again.

Damn! I hate accidentally repenting! ;-)

Seriously though—can any of you imagine what your reaction would be if one of your parents didn’t approve of your spouse (hey–these guys would be “spouses” if they could legally marry), and demanded that you sleep in different beds during their visit?

What’s the obsession with staying with family when visiting family? Seriously … hotels are so much better.

Yesterday I was talking with a student of mine. Like me, he is staying with a host family while he is here. This particular family isn’t Mormon but is, as he described it, “very conservative” (in a religious sense — we don’t know anything about their politics).

Anyway, this student is gay. He was telling me that he isn’t “out” to his host family because they all get along fine at the moment and he just didn’t want to rock the boat. I laughed out loud and told him my situation and we both were greatly amused by the irony.

Quite honestly, he and I have both been traveling so much over the past couple of weeks that there really haven’t been any opportunities for discussion, so it’s still the same story.

PS Yes I am a homosexual, so now you can attack me personally rather than deal with what I said….this is why I give my full real name.

Don,

Your ignorance is showing. There are many (admittedly not a majority of us) Mormons that support marriage rights for gays. I’m sorry that you are unable to see that and have decided to paint us all with the same brush. As for the factual errors in your comment, it seems that your mind is made up to believe a number of lies that are not based on fact, and from your tone I doubt that presenting facts would be productive.

As far as ‘lies’ that my post contained, can you name one? I don’t even ask for two.

Well, you have to admit to some bias. You don’t even know us. Or do you think all Mormons are alike?

You were unfair, Don, a bit too hasty which I suspect reflects some pretty painful personal experiences. I’m sorry.

Orwell’s a good guy.

Question: if you happened on a post reversing the situation “coming out gay to the Mormons” would you be so angry?

annegb There are a lot of homosexuals who are good people always, but according to the Mormon Church we all live an ‘immoral lifestyle’ (whatever nonsense that is eludes me) and none of us deserve equal protection under the law, since anti-homosexual legislation applies to all of us as in Prop 8. It isn’t pleasant to be labeled and stereotyped is it?

Don. I am for traditioanl marriage which is between male and female, although denying such marriage for same sex couples may be violation of the equal protection clause of the Constitution. I can understand some your bitterness. Have you had been treated wrongly by LDS being that you are gay? It is understandable that many LDS are probably bigoted against gays and lesbians.

We have Nick who is also gay on this blog whom I think is little less bitter than you are. I am sorry to read about the pain you are going through. You are still a human being who deserves much tolerance from those who may consider homosexuality a sin.

I personally have bad experiences with homosexuals trying to seduce me or inferring toward us single LDS men in a complex that we are not wanted since we are straight and prefer not to have children living with us. They were trying to make the area a homosexual colony. Even so I try not to be bitter toward gays and lesbians.

We who are LDS should consider first that we are Christians and should show love and charity toward all people. I assume deep inside you are a good person. Hopefually through out your lifes journey you will find some form of happiness and success.

BTW. I do consider previously denying the blacks the priesthood is partly a product of institutionalize racism, however they are now in full fellowship.

Peace Brother

Sorry folks . I had to edit my previous post because it is being moderated and may or may not go through . There maybe some duplication.

Don. I am for traditioanl marriage which is between male and female, although denying such marriage for SSM couples may be violation of the equal protection clause of the Constitution. I can understand some your bitterness. Have you had been treated wrongly by LDS being that you are gay? It is understandable that many LDS are probably bigoted against gays and lesbians.

We have Nick who is also gay on this blog whom I think is little less bitter than you are. I am sorry to read about the pain you are going through. You are still a human being who deserves much tolerance from those who may consider your life style sytle a sin.

I personally have bad experiences with gays trying to seduce me or inferring toward us single LDS men in a complex that we are not wanted since we are straight and prefer not to have children living with us. They were trying to make the area a gay colony. Even so I try not to be bitter toward gays and lesbians.

We who are LDS should consider first that we are Christians and should show love and charity toward all people. I assume deep inside you are a good person. Hopefually through out your lifes journey you will find some form of happiness and success.

BTW. I do consider previously denying the blacks the priesthood is partly a product of institutionalize racism, however they are now in full fellowship.

Peace Brother

Fine Don, here you go. I am an active member of the LDS Church and you are wrong on the following points regarding me:

1 – I personally support equal protection under the law for homosexuals. This includes supporting marriage rights.
2 – I support all of those things
3 – Personally I don’t believe that homosexuals that are in exclusive long-term relationships are immoral
4 – Clearly you don’t understand how LDS Social Services operates, and I’m not going to take the time to explain it other than to say that you are very wrong.
5 – I haven’t spent any money in CA or HI
6 – Elder Packer has said a lot of things that many members of the Church disagree with
7 – I’ve never heard of that one
8 – I’d walk out if I heard that, but I never have
9 – You are right on that one, I’ve taken offense that you’ve mischaracterized me on every count so far
10 – I don’t believe that

After 10 you sort of go off the deep end and I don’t feel the need to go over your rant other than to say that the Church historian recently wrote a book on MMM which you should read. Not that it will make MMM any better, but it will give you a better idea of how the issue is currently addressed.

“but according to the Mormon church” Don. Crap. That’s just as much generalization as all homosexuals are pedophiles. You should say “according to some members of the Mormon Church.” You should go back and read up on what’s been written in this blog about homosexuals and same sex marriage. You’re incorrect in your conclusions about us.

Although, I personally oppose gay marriage, but it’s a long story and certainly not summed up in all homosexuals are evil beings. Geez Louise. I only know two homosexuals who I think are evil, but they’d be evil no matter who they had sex with.

I, too, have been demonized and treated unkindly and unfairly by members of my church, but I don’t blanket condemn the whole church…..well, a lot of it….but not all of it. Not anybody here, that’s for sure.

I am truly sorry you’ve been treated poorly. It goes back to my deeply held belief that while Mormons claim to be Christian, they forget that that entails acting in a Christ-like manner, not just paying their tithing and showing up on Sunday. Don’t get me started or it will be like if anybody insults Fawn Brodie to DKL.

Don, I’m not copping out. I’m denying the legitimacy of your position based on the fact that your obviously an idiot. One could show up at a Jewish blog, spout idiotic anti-Semetic nonsense about how they control the world, and then accuse them of copping out when dismissed as an idiot. That’s basically what you’ve done here. I understand that you find it frustrating to be called out on the fact that you’re an idiot, and from the way you act, I gather that this happens to you quite a lot. But your escalating frustration doesn’t make your position legitimate, and it doesn’t make you any less of an idiot.

Tippetts Exactly my point. Denial of equal protection is marriage is a violation of the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution. I believe in the Constitution because it affords Mormons the right to believe whatever they choose, even when it includes hateful discrimination against blacks, for instance. If you don’t believe in the Constitution, then that is your right.

Don. DKL is true to form using the word idiot three times which really prevents dialogue and understanding.

My friend, I entered a peace offering but you infer I do not believe the Constitution. Yes indeed there are hateful discrimination among LDS against blacks but do not categorize all LDS who fits this mold. And yes indeed there are many LDS and non LDS who have homophobia. I am only speaking from my own perception. There are also many gays and lesbians who have hostility toward LDS and the Church from which many of their greviances are some what justified or at least understandable. If I was gay and the LDS Church tries in preventing me in getting married then I would be bitter. I have gone to gay and lesbians rallies to find understanding when they protest against LDS involvement toward Prop 8. The participants did not voice hostility against the LDS Church.

I do not like conflict so let us come and reason together. I think most people on this blog are trying to offer friendship. Please do the same.

annegb, I appreciate you sticking up for me, but don’t let Don get to you. His comments reflect worse on him than they do on Mormons — I have a hard time taking irrational people seriously, so I’m not going to worry about him.

Don, at this point, it’s too late to claim that you attacked anyone. Again, I couldn’t show up at a Jewish blog and spouted a bunch of anti-Semitic nonsense about Jews controlling politics, and then claim that I hadn’t attacked anyone. Yet you show up here spouting a bunch of lies about my religion, you expect me to justify my religion to you, and you claim that you haven’t attacked anyone. And a random john has even demonstrated, point by point, that your comment #107 is a bunch of nonsense.

Personally, I don’t care if you’re angry. Everybody’s angry. But you’re an obvious idiot for coming here spouting bigoted lies in an effort to demonstrate that we’re bigots. You’re seeking victimhood with a passion and a vigor that I’ve rarely seen. And since you’ve obviously exonerated yourself for spouting obvious lies about my religion, I hope that you remember the way that you were treated on this blog and hold all Mormons responsible. That way, next time you meet some Mormons who are stupid enough to engage your pursuit of victimhood, you can try and see if you can mischaracterize what’s happened here enough to trick those Mormons into apologizing for us.

DKL ‘Don, at this point it is too late to claim that you attacked anyone’. I don’t even know what that means. If it is too late to claim that, then don’t do it. The rest of your post is so incoherent I don’t know what it means.

Random John–you took each of my points and basically said he don’t agree. Does that mean that Elder Packer didn’t say that homosexuals, feminists and intellectuals are the Mormon Church’s enemies? Of course he did, so how does John saying that some people don’t agree make that a lie? Most of his refutations are simply saying that he doesn’t agree. Does that fact that he didn’t donate money in CA make it a lie that Mormon members donated 21million dollars in CA to oppose homosexual marriage? Or that the Church itself donated 600,000 dollars to Save Traditional Marriage in HI to oppose same gender marriage there? It just means that he himself did not and hardly makes my statement about the Church’s donation or the member’s donations a lie. Name one thing that I have said that is a ‘lie’. You can’t do it–DKL can only drag out this anti-Semitic argument as a way to further cloud what I am saying because you haven’t got the facts or logic to prove that anything that I have said is a lie.

The only way that I have been wrong is to paint ALL Mormons with too broad a brush.
Obviously some of you disagree with what most of the Mormon Church members and its leaders have said and done, so to that extent I am wrong.

Again, it is you in this blog who have called me names–you haven’t proven ONE THING that I have said to be a ‘lie’. Not one.

I said you should all be honest. I DID NOT say that each of you is a liar. I can see why you don’t stick to what I actually said because you can’t deal with that. Don’t you agree that you should be honest about what your Church leaders say and do, be honest about your Church’s history and if you don’t agree with what the leaders say then be honest about that too? Are you saying you shouldn’t be honest? I never said anyone was a liar–if you want to infer that, I can’t help you.

All you have is name calling, because you cannot and have not refuted one thing I have said. Please name any ‘facts’ that you have presented that refute anything I have said. I am still waiting for you to refute anything I have said. Again, are you saying that the Mormon Church does not oppose equal marriage rights for homosexuals? Are you saying that Elder Packer didn’t make those statements about the Church’s ‘enemies’. While you personally have not donated money to anti homosexual marriage efforts in CA and HI, does that make the donations of other member’s and of the Church a ‘lie’?

If I have said by direct statement or implication that ALL Mormons are my enemies, then I clearly was wrong, and if you are offended, then I apologize. Likewise, you need to apologize to me for name calling, which I have not done to you.

Doctor Paul discusses a concept called ‘personal boundary’ as part of psychological shorthand term for your identity. The strength of your boundary is psychologically important, because you need to be true to yourself to keep your internal peace. I think there is a spectrum ranging from under-assertive to aggressive, and you will feel best at the midpoint. You can be your authentic self without being overbearing and yet without secreting your identity. You probably already are aware of what that point is.

I mention Dr. Paul because I’ve reviewed some of his courses recently, one of which is the “MindOS” course which is an elegant view of our psychology, and very helpful for resolving problems and making decisions.

Name calling is the refuge of those who have no argument, no facts and no logic.

Don, your comments supply me with endless amusement.

Don, I appreciate your concerns, but I wonder if you’ve ever grappled with this problem:

http://www.mormonmentality.org/2007/05/22/the-misadventures-of-a-straight-man-in-gay-pants.htm

Don, the failure here is on your part, to recognize you are in error and you owe people an apology. That must be hard, when you’ve been so used to receiving offense. Self pity is an unattractive emotion and causes people to become immune to the feelings of others. You messed up and I realize it’s hard to admit mistakes, but you are mistaken. Be a man and own up you have misjudged us and apologize.

Did you all get a little Mormon Superiority buzz? It must be very intoxicating.

Get a grip, Don. Heterosexuals don’t have the monopoly on acting like a jackass.

I’m masochistic that way…

No, it’s a heavy burden, Don. Just ask the Jews.

It must be tougher than for the Jews though, since you all are God’s Chosen People in the Only True Church. What a burden you carry!! So many moral inferiors to deal with!

It must be especially tough to deal with moral inferiors when you are taking advantage of their hospitality. What a pickle to be in!!

Gotta go to work….maybe a good opportunity for you all to vote me off the island…

Don Harryman: Did you all get a little Mormon Superiority buzz? It must be very intoxicating.

Not me. I just got my regular “Human Superiority Buzz,” because I’m smarter, more articulate, better looking, and more successful than you are, and it has nothing to do with the fact that I’m a Mormon. I’m sorry your life sucks, but it’s not my fault.

Don (112):

Lie number one:

That I “oppose equal protection under the law for homosexuals.”

Lie number two:

That I “do not support hospital visitation, non discrimination in housing and employment for” homosexuals.

This thread is a classic example of how badly people act when they feel rejected and their feelings get hurt. This is why people leave the church, not over real doctrinal differences.

We should change the title to:” classic example of how people get their feelings hurt and reject us”

John I simply wouldn’t find myself in a situation like that. Such arrangements are made in advance like I’m sure the situation being discussed was. If I found out that the hosts were Mormon, I would simply make other arrangements for their comfort and mine. Pretty simple. I don’t know if you leapt to any conclusions about my religious/spiritual life which was why I asked.

LOL. Should Orwell have asked if his host was gay before accepting the offer to stay at his house? Would you really ask if your host was Mormon prior to leaving in order to be able to discriminate properly? What exactly is the list of questions that you’d ask in order to determine if someone is worthy to host you? Or is it just, “Are they Mormon?” What if the person making arrangements simply doesn’t know?

Frankly, you’ve already done the online equivalent or Orwell’s situation by coming into our house and behaving as you have. So we have a good indication of how you’d act.

I’ll also note that as usual, you’ve neglected to answer the majority of my questions.

M Thank you for your thoughtful post. Clearly you are interested in peacemaking and solutions. I can not respond to your post without giving it careful thought. Thank you.

So this is ‘Mormon hospitality’. Thanks, but no thanks.

Yeah, OK.

A homosexual relationship, is my view, is the same and is no worse than an immoral relationship between two of the opposite gender. If it was a situation of “the professor and his girl friend”, would you have a different feeling about it? A lot of us socially encounter those relationships all the time. You should think through the possibility that you are creating grades of immoral relationships, and are in fact fixated with the homosexual aspect of the immoral relationship.

They probably knew he was Mormon, I mean Utah=Mormon right? If they didn’t, they probably might not know what mormons are really and if they didn’t really know what mormons were then they probably wouldn’t know they had a problem with mormons.