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I’m not sure I get your point here
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[...] story at http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/08/10/analyzing-paul-krugmans-new-york-times-editorial.htm « americas best dance [...] |
[...] This is a puzzling sort of thing to say. Krugman seems to believe that protesters who angrily expreRead more at http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/08/10/analyzing-paul-krugmans-new-york-times-editorial.htm [...] |
There is more than a little irony in left-leaning folks decrying loud political protesting. So, too, there is more than a little irony in right-leaning folks ratifying it. Richard Nixon must be rolling over in his grave. |
Seriously, anything Rick Scott has to say about health care should be ignored. He’s a fraud. Maybe he has an occasional legitimate point — but he has zero credibility. |
A few points: First, does anyone take Krugman seriously anymore? This recent clip was pretty funny. As to this article, I have been finding it interesting to watch this strategy from the white house play out. Rather than defend the house bill, the strategy so far has been to criticize as illegitimate those who oppose the bill. That seems like it runs the very real risk of creating a backlash, but I can’t tell how it will turn out yet. Second, what does this have to do with Mormonism? I thought this was a Mormon blog. Just want to get that out of the way. Third: …one must read it for herself…. For this purpose, the word “oneself” was created. |
How does shouting down to stop the conversation of the healthcare debate at town hall meetings, endears them to anyone. Especially when the organizations that are telling them where to go and what to do and say are Republicans political operatives, not real grassroots. How does shouting someone down or chasing them out like a lynch mob advanced the debate, it does not. So I think the American people will see through all of this and know, like the teabagger, the birthers, these lynch mobs types are just the same, people who have to resort to these tactics because they have no leadership to articulate what they real want. It’s easy to pickup a bus load of people who hate, and that’s all I been seeing, they hate and can’t debate. Too bad. |
Apparently, the people who hand out the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (wow, what a wordy title) take him seriously … for what that’s worth… |
True Story: Someone I know who is a tea-bagger and a birther and an IDer tried to send me a resume (although, we’re not hiring). And for the first time in my life, I seriously wondered about how much weight I should give to someone’s political views. I don’t care that people are conservative or liberal (I’m in the middle), but seriously – someone who gives into wacky conspiracy theories and disagrees with basic science … may not be the best person to analyze complex scenarios and give constructive feedback… |
How does shouting someone down or chasing them out like a lynch mob advanced the debate, it does not. That is the point of the strategy, to pretend that all the people who oppose the healthcare bill are crazy people shouting down their opponents and running them out like a lynch mob. It seems fairly obvious that this is not what is generally happening, but if they can brand all opposition as “crazy” it could be an effective way to avoid addressing the fact that a majority of Americans oppose the bill in nationwide polling. What ever happened to dissent being the definition of patriotism? |
queuno, it’s true that there are topics upon which I would take him seriously. When it comes to his analysis of his political opposition, I for one have stopped taking him seriously. |
My data point on the allegedly racist “mobs” that must be silenced because they are not “true grass roots” and/or smelly hippies socking it to the man with their flower power: my sister protested one of these town meetings. She is very smart, and she has a heart of gold. Also, she is knowledgeable about health-care economics (her husband is a surgeon), and very troubled about what the proposed health care reforms would do to both the general quality of health care and the American economy. As to the charge of dressing well: it is probably true. She probably wore a tasteful suit from some boutique or department store. |
Jacob J: Second, what does this have to do with Mormonism? I thought this was a Mormon blog. Just want to get that out of the way. This is a blog by Mormons, who blog about a variety of topics, including Mormonism. Third: …one must read it for herself…. For this purpose, the word “oneself†was created. I think “oneself” is an ugly word. I prefer to use the feminine pronoun as gender-neutral. |
DKL, I’m very concerned that you may have taken my comment about this being a Mormon blog seriously. |
I actually thought the point about almost half of the protesters being on Medicare to be quite enlightening, in a “we have access to government healthcare, but we don’t want you to have access to it” kind of way. |
What ever happened to dissent being the definition of patriotism? I have no problem with dissent being patriotic. I have problems with mobs not allowing people to speak. Yeah, I would have been complaining about the colonists methods in 1776. |
I’m also getting tired of veiled references to health care policy at Church. I found a reason to leave priesthood early and decided to go help the clerk after the third Obamacare reference (in 2 minutes) in EQ. Please, I go to Church to avoid political talk. |
I’m also getting tired of veiled references to health care policy at Church. Move to Oregon, as far as I can tell we don’t make reference to health care at church, veiled or otherwise. Also, it is a beautiful state. |
Been to Portland, loved it. Alas, I really love North Texas, and most of the time, my ward/stake is very apolitical (you didn’t hear a peep about Prop 8). But for some reason, Obamacare has frightened a couple of instructors who are married to nurses. Our ward is about a 55-30 split between known repubs and known dems, with the rest being independents. |
Paul: How does shouting down to stop the conversation of the healthcare debate at town hall meetings, endears them to anyone. Nobody’s talking about whether we like the protesters. The questions is whether they’re racist, as Klugman says they are, and whether they’re violating anyone’s freedom of speech. Your charge that they’re rude is both trivial and beside the point. Paul: Especially when the organizations that are telling them where to go and what to do and say are Republicans political operatives, not real grassroots. You’re right. The protesters should figure out where to go on their own. Paul: How does shouting someone down or chasing them out like a lynch mob advanced the debate, it does not. How does accusing them of being lynch mobs and insisting that they’re rude advance the debate. It does not. Paul: So I think the American people will see through all of this and know, like the teabagger[sic], the birthers, these lynch mobs types are just the same, people who have to resort to these tactics because they have no leadership to articulate what they real want. It’s easy to pickup a bus load of people who hate, and that’s all I been seeing, they hate and can’t debate. Too bad. Actually, you think that Americans will be taken in by your nonsense propaganda. You’re desire to equate those who object to overblown spending and additional interference with health care (on the one hand) with those who back the conspiracy theory created by Clinton supporters (on the other hand) is dishonest. |
Jacob J said:
He certainly did take some creative liberty with this column, but overall I find him to be very well-informed and able to explain complex issues in an understandable way. When it comes to economics he makes no excuses for being a Keynsian, but he knows his stuff and is repeatedly cited by a lot of people/blogs I respect (Calculated Risk, The Baseline Scenario, and others). However he’s at his best when he’s wonky and not so political. But you have to admire someone who wears his heart on his sleeve. I think the problem with the healthcare debate is that there is a large constituency that appears to be against almost any kind of real reform at any cost, and on the other side the Obama administration has not been very good at articulating exactly what they would like to change. I understand that it’s a complex issue, but if they want to sell it they have to put it into terms that the average person can understand. I would bet that 9 out of 10 of the attendees at those town halls couldn’t tell you the first thing about what policy changes are being proposed. Krugman did actually have a good blog post the other week where he tried to lay out the case for reform.
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DKL Bravo! |
True story, a guy that was trying to become my main supplier at work went off on the birth certificate thing while we were at lunch and IO chose a different supplier that afternoon. People that are into the tea-bagging/birther stuff just seem off their rockers, there’s no way I’m trusting that guy to deliver my stuff on time.
Ugh, yeah. I thought I’d be able to avoid this stuff at least until 2010 or 2011. EQ has been pretty annoying for the past two weeks. Luckily I was just called to teach the ten-year-olds and I won’t be in EQ for a while. |
I wish I had a chance to fire someone who believed that Sarah Palin’s baby Trig was actually her daughter’s bady, or that Diebold Corp secretly stole votes from Kerry in 200, or that Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks. Oh, wait. I actually did. As a technology executive, I’ve had employees who believed all of these things. (I live in Massachusetts, remember?) I love and respect every one of them — they’re some of the finest people I know. Their opinions don’t bother me in the least. You know why? I’m not a dick. Regarding political opinions in church, you people need to grow some balls. Seriously, is that how you handle dissenting opinions? By getting up and leaving!?!? Someone call a waaambulance! Yours is such an insufferable response that it leads me to believe that if people treated you that way, if they got up and left when you said something that bothered them, then most places you went would probably be empty. |
I decided politics and church didn’t mix when people were giving testimonies about Bush declaring war on Iraq so we could send missionaries there. And yes, I’m a dick and that loon has one less customer. |
I totally agree that politics and church don’t mix — though there are people with whom I discuss politics at church, I would never presume to express a political opinion with something I said in a class, talk, or testimony, and I would always discourage others from doing so as well. That said, those who do mix church and politics are as deeply in need of Christ’s atonement as I am (well maybe that’s a bit harsh; let’s say they’re almost as deeply in need of Christ’s atonement…). Not only do I shudder to think that my reaction to their participation in church might discourage them from seeking my fellowship, but I depend on the forbearance of those around me at least as much as they do. If I didn’t pardon those comments by faithful members that I perceive as ill-conceived, I’d be like the man whose debt was forgiven, but refused to forgive the debt of another. |
Regarding Krugman’s disingenuous claim that there’s something uniquely hostile about the anti-Obamacare crowd, and the ludicrous me-too-ism shown by those who insist that there’s something qualitatively worse about the anti-Obamacare crowd that Obama and Krugman are smearing when compared to the protestors of Bush policies that both Pelosi and G. W. Bush defended, take a look at these photos of Americans protesting Republican policies. The Obama administration’s attempt to shut down opposition and dissent is a nice foil to the open-handed transparency of the GW Bush administration. All these attempts by Democrats to smear those who disagree with President Obama’s proposed policies remind me of HUAC, which had its heyday when there was a Democratic president and Democratic House. |
The link is a real eye-opener, DKL. Scrolling down I saw pictures of protesters burning Bush in effigy and hanging him in effigy, in addition to truly shocking allegations on signs equating Bush and America with Hitler and Nazi Germany and equating Israel with Nazi Germany (in addition to naked protesters exposing themselves to small children and a “pin the molotov on the cop car” game that children were playing). |
What you are seeing is two things. First, that as exampled from what DKL has posted, anti-statists have learned from Democrats and the left that when you keep your mouth shut your not going to be heard. Second, there isn’t a discussion because anti-statists don’t believe the opposition wants to discuss anything. How Obama-care leftists have treated them is next to ignoring or shooing them away. What they are doing is getting heard. If shouting and gathering together is the only way to be heard, then that is what is going to be used. Silent No More! |
I read this Krugman opinion the other day as well. One word came to mind: HACK. |
I think that we have a right to expect better from someone who won a Nobel Prize for his intellectual pursuits. What “right” are you going to manufacture next? Free healthcare? This is a blog by Mormons, who blog about a variety of topics, including Mormonism. Maybe, but Entitlement Mentality would be a better fit. I’m not a dick. Something here does not compute. |
“I’m not a dick.” Talk about Nixon rolling over in his grave! |
Hey, I’ll admit – I attend Church to fulfill my own needs, not to buff to a sheen the ego of some political nutjob in an EQ lesson. I’ll be polite if I think he’s wrong on his analysis the Wentworth Letter, but when he’s going to sit there and spew crap on healthcare during an EQ lesson on the Wentworth Letter, or if he’s going to spend 15 minutes joking endlessly about the Cowboys game that day … no, I don’t feel I need to stay. And we have plenty of employees whose views I disagree with. But when someone comes to you and is trying to get a job based on his ability to take a situation and provide analysis and recommendations, I question his ability to get the job done if he’s spouting the latest conspiracy theory. If I were hiring him to be a programmer or just to sell or install widgets, I wouldn’t have an issue. |
Must be nice to have the kind of ego that can bring you to (a) accuse a Nobel Prize winner of baffling logic; and then (b) mirror-image that logic and call it good. Not that we have to listen to Nobel Prize winners, and particularly when they’re at the edge of their field of endeavor. But… sheesh. |
MFM: Must be nice to have the kind of ego that can bring you to (a) accuse a Nobel Prize winner of baffling logic; and then (b) mirror-image that logic and call it good. Can you be more specific? Your comment reminds me of Linda Douglass’s rant on the web, which was big on accusations, but short on details. Perhaps Krugman and other liberals would prefer if someone just threw her shoe at her congressman — they ate that up when it happened to GW Bush. |
This essay about possible healthcare reform ideas strikes me as a worthwhile read. |
It is absurd in being an apologist for a mob who will intimadate their opponents by trying in preventing them in excercising their freedom of speech. Democracy thrives on civil and open debate not by aggression nor disturbing the peace. |
B Tippets, you accuse them of disturbing the peace, and that’s just crazy. They’re not even behaving as badly as Henry Louis Gates, Jr. You sound like a communist when you claim that it’s undemocratic to be rude to an elected official. Besides, these “town hall meetings” are staged events. They’re meet-and-greets, where the only question that are allowed to be asked are those that pass through censors. If these people didn’t speak out of turn to express their opinions, they’d simply be passed over for those with softball questions. You’ve got it the wrong way around: The people speaking out of order to express their political opinions are epitomizing democracy, not corrupting it. Anyway, we’ve had liberals on this blog threaten armed rebellion against the USA if Bush didn’t stop this or that policy, but if some nicely-dressed people show up to express dissent about policy policy positions, all of a sudden, that’s undemocratic. What are they threatening, besides voting their conscience in the next election? Your statement that “democracy thrives on civil debate” is a lie. Not only does it sound bizarre coming from the left, whose rhetoric for the past 10 years has been the most destructive political rhetoric in more than 50 years, but it’s a fundamental misrepresentation. Not all discussions can be polite, and not all debates can be civil. What makes democracy thrive is a near-universal commitment to a procedural system that sorts out policy implementations in light of differing opinions (cf. Federalist #10). Debate can help some people make up their minds and sort out the opinions of individuals and of officials, but it has no direct impact on the efficacy of democracy. Civil debate, in itself, is useless — even the Soviet Union had civil debates, and it took a totalitarian regime like Communism to enforce this civility. It boggles the mind how low people like you will stoop to parrot the party line while pretending to say something morally significant. |
DKL. You are definitely a classic apologist being blind to the tactics of a few trying to prevent their own elected representatives to speak. Respond with better reason than casting out labels toward me being a fascist or a communist when I am opposing rudeness. It is more than rudeness while using verbal force as to prevent dialogue Mob intimadation does have a facist character. Yelling at someone by trying in drowning out someone so their voices can not be heard does show an element of mobocracy. Every time some one would speak some of the opposition would yell louder as to prevent other voices to be heard is indeed corrupting democracy. ‘Civil debate is useless.” You really got to be kidding. Parrot what party line? To which I speak applies to any political persuasion. I am in opposition in using intimadation tactics not the message someone is trying to to project. How is it in advocating for reasonable discussion and defending a person right to speak rather defending mob tactics is stooping low? If you follow this assertion one would indeed find this mind boggling. You are so rigid in idealogical thought you cannot even see the incorrectness of using implicit violence against those who are for government health care reform. Many of these mobocrats goals are to use any means necessary short of actual violence in preventing pro health reformers to present their message. Ends in this case does not justify the means. Thus stated I have problems with Obama’s health care plan and there are indeed many who are rightly concerned such a plan could lead to more government rationing of health care. Hence people have some valid points for a heated discussion. However this is not point of my response. If I saw the left using similiar tactics of intimidation to which I would also say this is wrong . |
What I observed on the videos people intimidating others during the health care reform town hall meetings does protray this concept. “Ochlocracy (Greek: οχλοκÏατία or okhlokratÃa; Latin: ochlocratia) is government by mob or a mass of people, or the intimidation of constitutional authorities It is akin to the Latin phrase mobile vulgus meaning “the fickle crowd,” from which the term “mob” originally derives.[1] Source: Wikepedia. |
It’s not clear to me what basis you have for thinking that you’re actually advancing your argument here. You failed to answer any of my arguments, instead relying on the bald insistence that the protestors are terrible and misquotes. Like it or not, the health care bill will be decided by an orderly vote on the floor of the houses of Congress — there’s a Sergeant at Arms employed for exactly that purpose, and until he has his hands full enforcing order while Congress is in session, you needn’t worry that anyone is trying to upset the process of Democracy in favor of Ochlocracy. And however the Congressional vote goes, there’s no risk that any of these protesters are going to do anything but wield their voting power in opposition in the next general election. Again, no Ochlocracy. The only threat I’ve heard repeated in the news reports is some protester who said, “My children and grandchildren are going to pay for this.” OK. Nobody wants people to hurt their children — especially in retaliation for healthcare reform. But that’s still not a threat to the Democratic process. If, as you claim, these voters are guilty of some kind of harassment or of exerting some kind of undue influence or duress in order to change the opinions of these congressmen, then let’s arrest them. But they’re not, and you’re just throwing empty words around to smear people who are expressing political opinions in a political forum. And given the paucity of rationality exhibited by your comments, you’re on pretty thin ice when you throw around phrases like “the rule of passion over reason.” |
B. Tippets and DKL – I think in an odd way you are arguing heatedly while you are (in essence) agreeing on at least one thing – that political parties have utilized unfair/loud (if not undemocratic and illegal) tactics to push forward their agendas. What makes a person mad, I think, is when the political opposition (to your own stance) is using said tactics. Politics is dirty. No point in arguing that. Saying that one party or the other is particularly dirty is a fact – as long as neither party member is claiming that his/her own party is somehow pure(r). Each party does whatever they legally (and sometimes illegally) can get away with in order to gain the upper hand on their particular perspectives. Each side is using levers it creates to upend the other party’s agenda and I think this is particularly true in the healthcare debate. DKL is pointing out (as should be obvious by now) that this is what typically happens in a democracy and I don’t think Tippets really disagrees with that. Of course agreeing on that point doesn’t make the behaviors, by either side, any less outrageous, irritating, controversial … My concern right now is that Obama may perceive healthcare as a trophy issue – if he can win this fight somehow, then he goes down as a Democratic president who achieved something that the Clintons failed to do – it gives him some kind of place in history. [Note: I voted for Obama.] However, I have my doubts about the plan he is attempting to push through, though I don’t know a ton about it. I just don’t have time to research it thoroughly and there are so many claims and counterclaims going on in the media that it’s very hard to sort much out. I know that there are serious problems in healthcare – and I believe government has an obligation to try and address those problems somehow – not necessarily solve ALL of them – but maybe solve some of them. I suspect in regards to some of the problems, no other institution (besides government) has the power or capability to step in and work towards a solution. The free market certainly won’t solve all these problems on its own. Both the free market and the government have tendencies to particular kinds of successes and excesses – and so both have to be allowed to participate to some degree and simultaneously be limited/curtailed in some way. The sure thing is that the means and ways that this arrangement is reached are extremely controversial. There. I think I’ve managed to say a lot and nothing at all. |
[...] Mormon Mentality – Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People … [...] |
I liked what you had to say, Daniel. I think it’s hilarious when we start arguing who’s a bad word and in the middle of this big argument stop and explain our Mormonism, especially to Jacob :) pulling our chain. It takes the boredom out of it. What I like best about these kinds of posts is that I try very hard to understand them and only sort of understand but then I can drop the topic on my clueless friends and sound like I’m all smart and intellectual when basically I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about. What’s a birther? I don’t like the idea of protesters being organized. I’m not sure they are, really. I think people were genuinely upset when Bush went into Iraq–I was. I didn’t protest. It was like when somebody I liked did something I didn’t feel good about, I just mostly kept my mouth shut out of friendship. This health care thing, I don’t agree with socialized medicine. No to the point of yelling in public about it. I question Obama’s motives. But, geez Louise, not because he’s black. That’s crazy. Some people think we have to agree with the president totally or we’re racists. I’ve had enough of that crap. |
What’s a birther? A conspiracy theorist that claims Obama is not a natural born American. |
Peter, The birthers I know are not making a claim one way or the other on Obama being a natural born citizen. Birthers are just asking that Obama release his long form birth certificate. |
Brent – that argument is disingenuous. In a John Stewart-esque analogy, “I don’t take an opinion one way or the other, but I heard that Obama drinks the blood of young children, and so I just think we should make him eat garlic to see if he is not a vampire.” Annegb – what Motive of Obama’s do you question? if so – what do you think his motives are? |
ola senor, actually, your attempted refutation is disingenuous, or, if offered sincerely, just plain silly. Brent’s statement that “Birthers are just asking that Obama release his long-form birth certificate” does not pretend to be a formally valid argument, so that the introduction of a counter instance does not constitute a reductio and has no impact at all on it’s persuasiveness. It therefore succeeds only in muddying the waters by use of a red herring. Most people are born outside of the US, and the requirement to provide of birth-documenting information is a very common one. That said, aside from the fact that I’m reflexively disinclined to (a) believe in conspiracy theories, and (b) really care much where Obama was born, the fact that the birther theory originated among Hillary supporters and has been repudiated by every major outlet of mainstream conservative opinion. But here’s an online program to generate your own Kenyan birth certificate. |
ola senor, It’s only disingenuous if all birthers make the claim that he’s not a natural born citizen. That’s not the case. Like many birthers, I’ve seen valid arguments on both sides, which has left me with some doubt. If Obama would just release his long from birth certificate, instead of spending large sums of cash fighting against it’s release, then this whole issue would just fade away. Using your analogy, what would people think if the alleged vampire spent a million dollars in order not to eat the garlic? Just eat the damn garlic, and show the ridiculousness of the allegations. |
Do you have to be born in the US? His mom is American. I believe that to be true. I question his motives in that I wonder if he’s truly concerned about health care in America or if this is just another way of advancing socialism and government control. Bill was in the hospital when we were vacationing in Canada and now I’m opposed to national health care. I ain’t sayin’ we’re perfect but we have dang good hospitals in comparison. Except California which is fast becoming a third world country. |
The birthers I know are not making a claim one way or the other on Obama being a natural born citizen. Birthers are just asking that Obama release his long form birth certificate. Which is kind of irrelevant, given that the State of Hawaii has certified he was born there. |
Obama was born in the US and 911 was not an inside job. There I settled it. Rational people understand this. |
Why would Obama provide the orginal birth certificate? It is to his advantage to see the right wing fanactics stewing into more of a fringe element. Not being serious of course. Amazing how the birther conspiracy is causing doubt about birth place of Obama to someone on this thread. 1/3 of the Republicans also have doubts. This is a testament propaganda works. |
But B Tippetts who caused the 911 attacks? GWB? About 1-3 Dems believe this. |
danithew, I don’t actually agree with B Tippetts, but I’m very glad that he’s commenting here. I fear that if I actually offered his opinions on my own in order to argue with them, I’d be accused of setting fire to a strawman. So it’s good to have someone here who so thoroughly embodies the liberal approach to political speech. Over the past 9 years, liberals have written books and produced movies wherein President GW Bush was killed or planned to be killed. The mainstream political left openly compared GW Bush to Hitler, not just political protestors, left-wing celebrities, or nut-job academics, but pillars of the left like Senator Ted Kennedy, Senator Richard Durbin, former Senator, Vice President, and Democratic Presidential candidate Al Gore, NAACP Chairman Julian Bond, and even former Senator John Glenn. All of them compared GW Bush to Hitler. Who among the liberals was willing to denounce that? But now that a bunch of private citizens vigorously protest a healthcare policy to which their leaders are sympathetic, there’s no end to the hyperbole they’re willing to use to denounce them. At least they’re consistent: Whether it’s GW Bush or healthcare policy protestors, their opponents are working to destroy the Republic. And thus they use the overblown language of moral fads feign enlightenment and attempt to shutdown discussion about political policies that irritate them. Who then are the real enemies of democratic political discourse? |
#52. bbell. Here is my source where is yours? See below. The whole birther right wing conspiracy movement is to undermined litgitamacy of the President. You tell a lie several times people will start believing it is true. A Public Policy Polling survey carried out in August 2009 found that only 32% of Republicans in Virginia thought that Obama was born in the US. 41% thought he was foreign-born and the remaining 27% were unsure.[166] In Utah, an August 2009 poll carried out for the Deseret News and KSL-TV found that 67% of Utahns accepted the evidence that Obama was born in the US. The poll found that those who do not believe that Obama was born in the United States, or do not know, are predominately middle-aged, lower-income Republican-leaning individuals without a college education.[167] |
#53. . It is the intimidation of some protesters who are trying to shut down political speech. They indeed have become the real enemies of political discourse. This has inflamed hatred to which has lead to violence in some cases. Criticizing them is promoting a higher standard for civil discussion. Coming from the right or left by associating our political leaders as a persona of Hitler does nothing in promoiting political enlightment. However now the extreme fringed right is having its own hey day of emblishments by associating Obaama and other Democrats to Hitler. Let us not be partisan aplogist for those who promote hate, undemocratic mentods , and vicious lies but yet be adovocates for reason , tolerance, and understanding. |
Sorry for my typos. One should not write being half asleep. |
#57 Such views come from own political biases. There was no propaganda machine that induced such views similar to birther conspiracy theories. |
I typed a post but I guess the Blackberry ate it. I question Obama’s motives at to health care, for instance. Does he care about the state of health care in America or is he advancing a socialist—power to the government agenda? I’m waiting and seeing. Has there ever been a president with a parent who’s a citizen of another country? I think, say, a white candidate had a parent who was Russian with an American, the same questions might be asked. I don’t think it’s too much to ask. He’s the president, after all. I think it’s a fair question. On the other hand, it’s no big deal to me. But if it is to some people, that’s no big deal. It’s not a big deal to me if it’s a big deal to others. It’s a free country. Don’t you think whoever’s in charge of who runs for president has seen the long form, though? |
bbell, Ahhh, the “Oh yeah, well you’re not rational!” argument. Well played! Perhaps you could give me a rational explanation for the collapse of WTC 7. Can you imagine all those key structural members failing at exactly the same time, causing a symmetrical collapse at near free fall speed into it’s own footprint? Only a fool would question the governments theory on WTC 7, right? Buildings always take the path of most resistance when collapsing, right? The scriptures exhort us not to trust in the arm of flesh. Even if the arm of flesh is Bush or Obama. I’ll question everything they do. If that makes me irrational, then so be it. Later! |
B Tippets: Such views [as the birthers] come from own political biases. There was no propaganda machine that induced such views similar to birther conspiracy theories [as opposed to the 9/11 conspiracy theories]. As opposed to the conspiracy theories rabidly advanced by the liberal left that Sarah Palin’s baby Trig was her daughters? As opposed to Clinton Secretary of State Madeleine Albright’s 2004 accusation that GW Bush was holding Osama bin Laden and planned to release him just before the election? As opposed to Senator Barbara Boxer demanding an investigation on the Senate floor of the conspiracy theory that Diebold stole Kerry votes? But, as usual, you’re wrong about the propaganda surrounding 9/11. You’ve got it the wrong way around. The Democrats (like Michael Moore) began making propaganda to sensationalize people’s current beliefs. It was their own political biases that prompted them to support it. Moreover, the birther theory was started by Hillary Clinton supporters. The proof that the Democratic party is twice as looney as the Republicans is this: You’re lucky to find a single, well-known, major Republican official who advances the birther theory. But there are dozens of well-known, major Democratic officials who advance horrid, slanderous theories against Republicans all the time. And the fact that you’re determined to say “Well, that’s different” every time the Democrats prove that they’re more looney than the Republicans means that you’re in good company in that party of whackos. Next thing we know, you’ll be telling me that the Death Panels that the Senate removed from the bill were never in the House bill to begin with. Oh, wait. The New York Times already published that conspiracy theory today. |
RE: racism of protesters BUT, I have to believe that most racist people in this country also oppose BO and health care reforms as presently proposed because they are perceived to be a “win” for Obama. Maybe some of them go to town hall meetings, I don’t know. I don’t think Krugmans’ article is going to win any prizes, but he is entitled to his opinion and publications are entitled to paying him for printing it. I DO understand his point about conduct at these meetings not exactly being a perfect example of “freedom of speech.” Just like radio talk show hosts who hang up on dissenting callers and then rant for 15 minutes about all the caller was wrong about, when all you do is shout and not allow for a dialog, you are not allowing for a free exchange of ideas. While I don’t particularly agree with the “gotcha–you are racist” kind of arguments in this article or the previous one, I do believe racism is both real and often unrecognized as such by those who suffer from it. I do think that race plays a part in some people’s discomfort with Obama. True that any popular democrat could be discomforting to basically the same group of people, but there seems to be a particular kind of distancing for Obama–an assumption that he must not really be what he says he is. He is somehow more “other” than Bill Clinton. I think for some people that feeling has something to do with his race. But it seems to me that DKL does not believe that racism exists. It is a hard thing to prove, and I don’t think I will try. Like I said, I am all for debate on this issue, I just don’t think the Republican side, from it’s “leaders” right on down to the ones who stay home and grumble at the nightly news have gone about it very well. RE: birthers RE: Kenyan Birth Certificates RE: motives RE: ACORN |
As it turns out, conservatives are just as loony as liberals. (H/T DKL) Seriously, the stew of American politics is enough make “oneself” barf. At least conservatives are finally figuring out how to be annoying and fatalist. Liberals, on the other hand, are doing a great job of flexing the iron fist and complaining about dissent. I’m just grateful to be around in the “he said/she said” era. The questions for both parties: Isn’t it more fun to be out of power? I mean, one can only go so long without whining. |
BTW, nice how conservatives had 8 years! to fix health care their way. Too bad you squandered your chance on a bogus war. Considering that fact, I don’t think you have much room to complain. You made your bed – now lay in it. |
I don’t think the country want Obama’s idea of health care reform. There’s too many people protesting to call what’s going on conservatives stirring up the rabble. The rabble isn’t as stupid as some assume. Like how they weren’t that stupid when protesting the Iraq War. Some issues transcend party politics. |
ESO, there actually is a Republican proposal, and it hasn’t made it out of committee or onto the news. Perhaps you should look into it. Regarding racism, there’s far more anti-Semitism than anti-black racism. Claims to the contrary are just plain ludicrous while it’s still permissible to use the term “Jew” as a verb indicating that the extraction a lower price than a seller wanted to provide, as in “I Jewed him down on the price.” And I believe that it is demonstrable that many of those who focus on anti-black racism do so in order to justify and give cover to their own race-hatred, and Henry Louis Gates, Jr is the perfect example of this. Nevertheless, I do believe that there is anti-Black racism. In my last thread on racism, I pointed out that I’m not comfortable with the notion of black-on-black violence, because it is generally used to further racist ends, which I enumerate. But if a black man communicates to me through posture, gaze, and tone-of-voice that he hates me because I’m white, am I a racist for imputing this motive to him? Or his he the racist for treating me this way? |
REPUBLICANS LOVED THEIR DEATH PANELS…. If our political discourse were in any way sane, the “death panel” nonsense would be a punch line, evidence of ridiculous people making up pathetic lies. The very phrase would be evidence of a bankrupt, comically desperate movement. It would be, to borrow a phrase, the right’s “Waterloo.” And yet, conservatives not only take this insanity seriously, they’re actually using it as the basis to oppose health care reform. Given this, Monthly alum Amy Sullivan raises an observation that would, in theory, effectively end the conversation. You would think that if Republicans wanted to totally mischaracterize a health care provision and demagogue it like nobody’s business, they would at least pick something that the vast majority of them hadn’t already voted for just a few years earlier. Because that’s not just shameless, it’s stupid. Yes, that’s right. Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!! Let’s go to the bill text, shall we? “The covered services are: evaluating the beneficiary’s need for pain and symptom management, including the individual’s need for hospice care; counseling the beneficiary with respect to end-of-life issues and care options, and advising the beneficiary regarding advanced care planning.” The only difference between the 2003 provision and the infamous Section 1233 that threatens the very future and moral sanctity of the Republic is that the first applied only to terminally ill patients. Section 1233 would expand funding so that people could voluntarily receive counseling before they become terminally ill. Chuck Grassley, who yesterday pulled the measure on end-of-life counseling from consideration, voted for the ’03 bill. John Boehner, the first GOP leader to raise the specter of “government-encourag ed euthanasia,” also voted for the ’03 bill. Greg Sargent noted that Rep. John Mica (R) of Florida voted for the 2003 bill, “and last week he denounced the current House measure for creating Medicare-funded ‘death counselors.’” If reality had any meaning in modern politics, these “death panel” clowns would be laughed out of the building, and humiliated for life. Instead, they’re not only taken seriously, they’re getting media attention, they’re influencing GOP activists, and in Grassley’s case, they’re shaping health care reform policy. There will be no consquences for their reckless stupidity. There never are. —Steve Benen |
B Tippets, First of all, it’s idiotic to paste a lengthy peace of someone else’s work into your own comment just to express your opinion. Either link to it or summarize it. Second, the excerpt that you site simply spreads lies, and by spreading its content you’re spreading lies also. The Medicare bill allowed for Medicare to cover death counseling, if someone wants to obtain it. Obama’s bill as it was passed in the House actually forces them to obtain death counseling from doctors and bureaucrats on the government payroll. So this Benen guy is comparing a bill that provides coverage of voluntary activity to a bill that mandates that activity. Benen is the clown here, and it’s too bad that you’re too ignorant to know the difference. You should read Sarah Palin’s latest peace on the topic of Death Panels. She popularized the term “Death Panel,” and the justification that I link to has the obvious advantage that it isn’t based on lies. |
DKL where do you get that it forces people to obtain death counseling? Or is your problem that its doctors getting paid by the govt? My understanding is that doctors were always paid for this and that this is simply shifting payment from private insurance to medicare. If you the text of the bill says differently than Id be interested in seeing that. There is also a difference between a counseling being authorized (meaning its allowed and paid for) versus mandated that it occur. Again, I dont think anyone is being forced to have a living will. I personally like the idea of a living will (for me), but would never mandate people have them. I just dont see that in the text of the bill. Again, I am open to reading it wrong but would welcome evidence more than Sarah Palin’s word. |
DKL–I look forward to hearing about a R. proposal. We must travel in very different circles, because I don’t know anyone who would feel that the use of “Jew” as a verb is acceptable. I am not saying that anti-semitism does not exist, just that I don’t think it is socially acceptable. I do believe that racism can be directed at a white person, I just don’t think Krugman talked about that. |
You should look up the information on the Republican proposal, especially since you’ve accused them of not having a plan themselves. I always find that performing research to ensure that I’m informed on an issue is more effective than passively waiting for TV coverage to fill me in on the topic. I’ll assume that you impute that usage of the term “Jew” to my social circle because you just don’t know any better, and I’m pleased to inform you that it contains nobody who employ such a usage of the term “Jew.” But I’ve overheard the term being used that way by strangers, for example, talking in an elevator. Recently. I have a Jewish friend of about 12 years who has all kinds of stories, things like, as a teenager being asked — in earnest — where he keeps his tail. He gives a different, gentile sounding name when he makes reservations at a nice restaurant, because he’s found that it avoids troubles. Still, he recognizes that it’s much better than in European countries that he’s visited to see relatives, where synagogues do not display anything to indicate that they’re Jewish due to the prevalence of anti-Jewish vandalism. (Make no mistake: Europe favors Palestinian terrorists over the Israeli Republic because it still hates Jews.) The fact that Krugman chose a different topic from anti-White racism isn’t at issue. One thing that is at issue is that Obama’s partisans accuse anyone who disagrees with Obama of racism. This is a pattern that we’re likely to see repeated over and over in the next few years because Obama is a Demacrat and because he is black. If Obama were a Republican, we wouldn’t have to deal with all this nonsense about race. Who charged the opponents of Clarence Thomas with racism they invoked the racial stereotype of the sex-crazed black man? Who charged the opponents of Condoleezza Rice with racism when repeatedly used racist imagery to portray her (like this cartoon by 2-time Pulitzer Prize winner Roger Danziger published by The New York Times)? These are both much clearer instances of racism than the Joker posters or the arrest of Henry Louis Gates, Jr or opposition to health care reform. So yes, I believe that there is racism, and that it’s found primarily in the party that works hard to persuade Americans to view the world through the lens of racial definition; viz., the Democrats. |
The article I posted came from another blog with out source but just the author. Please use the word not appropiate or fallacy instead the word idiotic such which only demeans a person . |
B Tippetts: Please use the word not appropiate or fallacy instead the word idiotic such which only demeans a person. [emphasis added] First of all, it doesn’t only demean the person. It demeans the person and does a whole bunch of other stuff that terms like “not appropriate” or “fallacy” don’t do. Second, you need to learn that someone like me may hate the idiocy but still love the idiot. |
DKL–I think it would be both fruitless and impossible to argue which form of discrimination is more prevalent; I do not deny that either one is present or truly troubling. I also understand that it would indeed be VERY tedious to have every opposition to an Obama initiative be framed as racism. I do, however, believe that racism, and other discrimination, can be lessened only when people are aware of it and it is actively engaged and discussed. America does not now harbor the same raciality it did in the 1950s, for example. I believe this to be the motivation some authors have in frequently wanting to address racism regarding Obama. |
ESO, It looks like you’ve backed off of your position, “that DKL does not believe that racism exists.” |
The rabble isn’t as stupid as some assume. Yes, it is, until someone can really provide evidence to the contrary. The fact that they are being manipulated by Glenn Beck and the Foxers is evidence against them. |
Here’s an outstanding article that clarifies the entire Town Hall violence issue. In it, Professor Bainbridge torpedoes claims by people like B Tippets and Krugman that lefties are the rational ones while the conservatives just want to destroy democracy. For example, it was the left that gave us…
You want Mobocracy? You look to the left. You want a bunch of dishonest hacks claiming that people in suits speaking truth to power are an impediment to democracy? You look to the left. |
Queuno, I had never watched Fox News before the election where Gore still thinks he won. I was truly objective, I liked both men and felt either would make a good president. I followed the news closely during that time and found myself watching FOX the most, because I felt they were telling the true story. I wasn’t pre-inclined to the Republicans. I don’t feel they’ve brainwashed me at all. I don’t watch any news channel these days much. I believe they’re all biased. I see Fox condemning Obama the same way CNN condemned Bush. Nobody is exempt. I think people are smarter than you believe we are. I think somebody smells a rat. Nobody put those ideas in my head, my ideas evolved as far as health care is concerned. I believe we need reform, but I would no way condemn our health care because I still believe it’s the best in the world. I don’t think all this “rabble” ness is orchestrated by Fox any more than previous “rabble” ness against Bush was orchestrated by Move on.org. People everywhere were opposed to the Iraq War. And people everywhere are skeptical about Obama’s health care reform. I think that’s wisdom in the masses. |
DKL . You are definitely a partisan hack. Feeling better now that you realize mobocracy can come from the left but still being apologist for right wing mobocrats. But hey. Civil dialogue is useless right? Be true to form and use the word idiot in your response. It is good therapy for you not. Just playing with you bro. Take a deep breathe |
queuno: Yes, it is, until someone can really provide evidence to the contrary. The fact that they are being manipulated by Glenn Beck and the Foxers is evidence against them. Yeah, that’s the problem with Beck and Fox: They succeed in manipulating the rabble, as opposed to CNN or The New York Times, whose failure to manipulate the rabble is documented by falling ratings and diminishing circulation. Or as opposed to the enlightened sophisticates of Europe, where figures like Le Pen can garner a substantial fraction in the national elections of France. Or as opposed to the Black Panther party of the 60s/70s, which succeeded in manipulating the wealthy elite (a la Wolfe’s Radical Chic). I disagree with your notion that the rabble is stupid until proven otherwise, queuno. The truth is that illiterate, “in-bread,” hick voters in the back woods of Appalachia have a better record of voting than the sophisticates of the Weimar Republican. And they’re more productive workers than the educated peoples of any other industrialized nation. If you read Hayek on cultural sources of knowledge, then you’ll learn that formal, institutionalized education makes up only a small portion of one’s actual education. If the rabble behaves in ways that irritate you, you’ll probably do best to just give up on democracy in general. Calling them stupid and accusing them of being manipulated by people with whom you disagree doesn’t make you sound very smart. And don’t get me started on tolerance and diversity… |
B Tippets: You are definitely a partisan hack The term “partisan hack” is the left-wing term for someone who successfully discredits the left. B Tippets: But hey. Civil dialogue is useless right? Let’s take a look at what I said in comment #38:
The qualifier “in itself” is important, but this is the second time that you’ve imputed the statement “civil debate is useless” without qualifier. Perhaps it’s time that I dropped the word “idiot” and just called you dishonest. At any rate, you still haven’t answered a single point that I made in comment #38, and the reason is obvious: You’re something of an idiot of just who just drifts from topic to topic because you’re unable to actually address head on what your argumentative opponents say. |
I like Tommy Lee Jones’ comment in Men In Black: “A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals … ” You have people susceptible on both side: Those incited by Fox News on the right, those incited by Obama on the left. In #78, my intent wasn’t actually addressing any partisan topic, but mostly the issue of “rabbles” and whether or not they are stupid, and referring to the topical rabble that was in play. I should have given more example. When you have a mob whipped into a fever pitch — whether they be Yankees or Red Sox fans, Obama fans, the KKK, CBS golf announcers, or Glenn Beck fans trying to shut down a meeting — their collective intelligence is much less than they were as an aggregate of individuals. You can have “Wisdom of Crowds”. Likewise, you can have “Idiocy of Crowds”. |
DKL–you say you acknowledge that racism exists–I see no reason not to take you at your word. |
Great article by Andrew Breitbart on the politics of destruction being played by liberals (hat tip: National Review Online). Here’s an excerpt:
Only Obama supporters could be gullible enough and easily manipulated enough to believe that each of these was defensible on the particulars, and that there’s no larger pattern here. It would be comical if it weren’t actually non-fiction. And queno says that it’s Fox and Beck that are doing the manipulating. What a joke. |
ESO: DKL–you say you acknowledge that racism exists–I see no reason not to take you at your word. You didn’t seem quite so willing to take me “at my word” in comment #64 when you said, “But it seems to me that DKL does not believe that racism exists. It is a hard thing to prove, and I don’t think I will try.” That seems to presuppose that I’ll deny it. |
I thought you had argued against it in previous threads, but maybe you were just trying to say (then) that you did not suffer from it. I suppose we would disagree on the affect of racial discrimination, but I have no need to continue that argument on this thread. |
And queno says that it’s Fox and Beck that are doing the manipulating. What a joke. I missed where I suggested Beck was exclusively to blame or the only manipulator. I just have special emnity for Beck, and I love targeting him. Maybe because he’s a Mormon I think he should know better. |