NO. It makes kitties.

Does my conclusion make any sense?

Do you have any actual data to support your conclusion or did you just pull it out of your… ummm… ear?

No, I just pulled it out of my….ummmm….ear. It was just something I’ve been wondering about, trying to figure it out. Actual data…what a concept :)

I didn’t know about the roadblocks to raising taxes. So, does Utah not have those same roadblocks? Have we raised taxes on businesses a lot? Because Utah doesn’t have the problems California has.

What bloggernacleburner said. In 1978, California voters passed Prop. 13, which effectively lowered and capped property taxes in the state, and requires a 2/3 majority in both houses to raise any taxes, effectively making tax increases impossible.

Add to that unfunded taxpayer initiatives–any law that a citizen of California wants can be put on the ballot by getting enough signatures (Prop. 8, for example). But, while the government generally has to propose revenue to pay for new laws and programs, the proposition system doesn’t require any. But again it is virtually impossible for the legislature to raise money to pay for the programs voted in by the state citizens.

But it gets worse: thanks to the economic downturn, people are making less money. And, making less money, are paying less in taxes. (I recently heard that this year, so far, the federal government has collected 20-something percent less in taxes than last year.) So California has less money to spend on the things it has to spend on, but it has to spend the money because the citizens voted to, but it can’t raise taxes.

Plus, unlike the federal government, most states (including, I believe, California) are required by their state constitutions to balance the budget every year. So states have a serious problem in that they can’t do deficit spending.

So no, illegal immigrants haven’t caused California to go nearly bankrupt. Legal, voting citizens? Yes.

According to this Feb 2009 LA Times article, illegal immigrants cost California an estimated $5 billion per year. In case the hot link doesn’t work, here’s the url in cut-and-paste mode:

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/02/local/me-cap2?pg=2

Now let’s see if, for once, we can have a discussion on illegal immigration without the hysterical name-calling often accompanying such discussion. Can progressives resist the temptation for once to play the “xenopohobia” or “racism” card? I won’t hold my breath, particularly when the SPLC is waging economic warfare on Lou Dobbs (who, by the way, is married to a Latina).

Jack,
You’re the first person to bring up hysterics, xenophobia, or racism. Or, for that matter, Lou Dobbs. I’m definitely a progressive, and haven’t mentioned any of those things.

The article you link to, however, is pretty weak on the analysis. Illegal immigrants do contribute to the state through sales tax, but any who own or rent a place to live also contribute through property taxes. (That is, like any renter, a portion of their rent economically functions to pay property tax.)

Anne,
Why isn’t Prop. 13 repealed? While I confess to not having a significant grasp of the proposition system, I assume that to repeal a proposition, there needs to be a new proposition. (At least, that seems to be the direction the anti-Prop. 8 people are going.) But good luck getting a majority of people to vote for a law that will, no questions asked, raise their own personal taxes.

What risk does the budget problem have to impact the California university systems? For years, we’ve heard that the tech industry loves Silicon Valley (over Austin or Boston or other states) because of California’s “superior” university system. I wonder if in 10 years we’ll look back and see that startups are coming out of other states, because students are migrating to universities in other states…

Jack, Sam’s right, I think, about the article. It’s more an opinion, really. It makes sense, but the author doesn’t back it up well.

Queuno, I wonder how much your uncle pays, really. My house was worth $30,000 in 1979 and now it’s worth 180,000. I think our taxes were almost $700 last year and have gone down $30 for this year. I’m going to find that out.

Sam, it doesn’t make sense to me that people would be so stupid. It doesn’t make sense that there’s no politician brave enough to point out the problem and muster support for change. I’m going to start telling my California callers their taxes are too low and start a grounds swell movement.

Bbell, I think that’s so sad, but I agree. On the other hand, I’ve expressed my sympathy to many Californians who tell me they love living there. I can’t imagine it but when I was in Newport Beach, it occurred to me that all of California isn’t a terrible place.

I think if you’re going to put in a freeze on property taxes to prevent people from losing their houses, you should do it with a minimum age (i.e., 55) and a means test.

Why does the illegal immigration problem seem more severe in California? States bordering Canada don’t seem to have those problems. Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona don’t seem as bankrupt. It must be other issues, as well.

Best I can figure out, the taxes for a house like mine would be around $800 in California. Which is higher.

Texas does not have any more responsible a government than California. Texas has a ton of oil money feeding into state coffers, which covers a world of sin (i.e., Rick Perry). Texas had a deficit this year, until the federal stimulus money kicked in, leading Perry to think he was fiscally responsible.

But I’ll agree we’re not as bad as California.

“taxes for a house like mine would be around $800 in California.”

Here’s an interesting map. And a related chart, showing that CA ranks 15th in property tax paid as percentage of annual income.

DKL, 22: Well said.

**(I had to copy and paste the whole thing because I can’t figure out the URL thing on my computer anymore)

Schwarzenegger declares ‘fiscal emergency,’ says Calif. going broke
Agence France-Presse
Published: Monday December 1, 2008

LOS ANGELES (AFP) – Facing a deep budget deficit, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger on Monday declared a “fiscal emergency” in California and called a special session of the state legislature to deal with the crisis.

“Without immediate action our state is headed for a fiscal disaster,” said Schwarzenegger in a statement.

California, with a population of 38 million, would be the world’s sixth largest economy if it were an independent country.

“We must act now to address the current year revenue shortfall of 11.2 billion dollars and we must implement an economic stimulus package to help retain and create jobs, keep Californians in their homes and fix the state’s Unemployment Insurance Fund,” Schwarzenegger said at a Los Angeles press conference.

The call comes on the day that an economic panel declared that the United States has been in recession since December 2007, and two months after the California budget was approved after 85 days of crisis between Schwarzenegger and the state assembly.

At the time, the agreement seemed to temporarily solve the question of the state’s budget deficit.

But since then “the dramatic deterioration in revenue projections since the signing of 2008 Budget Act presents an extraordinary situation which, combined with the volatility of our tax system, creates a revenue problem,” the governor’s office said in a statement.

Over the next 18 months, “preliminary estimates … show the budget deficit reaching a staggering 28 billion dollars,” the statement read.

#11 Sam I agree with your assertioln . Illegals also pay billions to the national government through personal income taxes and Social Security. However the latter is done admist crime since they fraudently used faked Social Security numbers. But to blame to California budge woes on illegals is far stretched. Budget short fall is mainly due to lack of revenues coming in due to negative economic growth. Scape goating that all of these problems are caused by illegals has a stench of ethnocentrism. If all illegals were deported in California its agri-business probably would collapse

Actually, illegals are what are making our 1st-world standard of living possible.

Agree with 28. When you can’t find anyone else to pick the fruit, we’ll dwindle as a nation…

DKL: If the United States becomes an Hispanic nation in the next 75 years, 21st century Hispanic America will be every bit as great as 20th century Central European/Eastern European America.

Amen bro.

Prop 13 is a red herring. California now has the highest tax burden of any state in the US (it just passed MA and NJ to take the title. California’s problem, historically, has been a spending problem. Now that it has chosen to tax the bejesus out of it’s citizens it’s going to have a revenue problem as well as as (especially wealthy) people elect to relocate to lower tax jurisdictions such as Texas and Nevada. The WSJ reported that Texas, with the third or fourth lowest tax burden, is the only state during the current recession that has experienced a net addition of jobs– despite the vast layoffs occurring in the petroleum industry.

14. Johnna Cornett said:

I’m from California. And yet, I don’t want to see older people turned out of the $1.5 million dollar houses they bought for $30,000. That was the purpose of Prop 13: house prices were rising so rapidly, many people were at serious risk of losing their primary residence homes because of property tax assessments.

I personally have no problem with them having to pay the same property taxes as anyone else. So what if they have to move? They’ll be would be walking away with so much money I’d have a hard time mustering much sympathy. Unless of course they happened to do some major cash-out refi’s during the boom years and spent it all, but we all know everyone was too wise to do that.

I think it’s ridiculous that I could buy a house here in Los Angeles and pay several times in property taxes what my neighbor does for the same services. Prop 13 basically allowed the older generations to extract a lot of wealth our of the state leaving the younger generations to clean up the mess. The passage of Prop 13 in my mind was the beginning of the great decline of California.

I think what we need now is a new constitutional convention. The current system is so dysfunctional I think it’s beyond being able to be fixed.

DKL, well, California is fact becoming a Hispanic nation. I guess we will see.

Mike D, but the house really isn’t worth a million. A lot of people are coming here, or they were, don’t know if it’s slowed to a trickle, anyway, from California who have sold their homes for big bucks, so they can buy a comparable or nicer! home here for a fraction of the money.

Charlie, I don’t know if I’m racist or not. I made the conclusion (not a firm one, just trying to figure out what the heck was with California) based on a lot of people coming in who need services like welfare, medicaid, etc. without contributing because they can’t because they’re not legal. It seems like that would be a drain. And does any other state come close to California with illegal immigration? I don’t think so. Legal immigrants contribute and are not such a drain.

And if it’s true and makes sense, how is that racist? I don’t get racist, is any reference to race, creed, or color racist? If I say “black people are black,” which is true, is it also racist because it contains a reference to skin color? I think that’s crazy.

But, “you people are crazy.” I love Harold. He reminds me of Bagdad Bob, in a strange way.

Okay, this is racist. I know it. It’s not my conclusion, but I wonder about it. My loaded friend’s late father, a millionaire, who was also a bishop and who frankly, I despise for a number of reasons (he believed the Holocaust never happened) said that the countries with darker skinned people were poorer and more ignorant.

Well, mostly, they are. What’s up with that? I mean, for natural resources, you can’t beat Africa. Africa should be the richest, most advanced continent in the world.

And if skin color is a factor, for whatever reason, is that contributing to California’s problems? East LA is for real, I was there one week before the riots in, uh, 1992?

I suppose that’s going to raise all sorts of hysterical hackles, I don’t buy it, but I can’t refute it, either. I wish somebody would.

Back to Prop 13, I can’t believe the people of California are that dumb and that selfish. I think other things must be at play. Because how crazy is it that an entire state is sitting there stupidly saying, “don’t raise our taxes, let us all fall on our faces together, with low taxes and no money in our state”—that’s suicidal. There have to be enough people with heads on their shoulders to overcome that.

I probably should apologize for being so lazy I will ask a question of the bloggernacle and let you guys do my research for me, but if you can’t let your friends do all your intellectual work for you, what can you do ?

#37 BrianJ
As far as I’m concerned #4 on the list is pretty high but how in the world did this list come up with Alaska as #2? Don’t they get money back for living in Alaska from all the Oil & Gold?

Todd, 40: you were looking at 1977 stats. Scroll through the document for the 2008 figures: Alaska in 50th and California in 6th.

ann “based on a lot of people coming in who need services like welfare, medicaid, etc. without contributing because they can’t because they’re not legal.”

My understanding was that they do contribute mostly but as illegals they can’t then reap the benefits. most employers don’t take too many chances with deductions.

the racist bit is the belief that its mostly Mexicans illegals. its a minor issue but still tells people that most of the mexicans in CA are illegal when most are probably legal, although no one seems to have accurate figures, plus its usually the last group to arrive who will have the highest levels of illegality, and in CA that’s probably Pakistanis or Russian, but again we don’t have accurate figures so my guessing here could also be considered ‘racist’ :)

#45 Lay down your verbal weapons. No need to perpetuate ethnic divisions that may lead to your paranoia of civil war…. You must listen alot to Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck.

What everybody is forgetting is that Calif is extremely anti business and the legislature has used anti business policies to drive businesses that are not politically or environmentally correct out of the state for years. This has driven jobs, profitability and tax receipts to where we see them now.

Another point is that in the 70′s, Prop 13 style propositions were proposed and continually could not qualify for the ballot. the legislature had years to pass legislation that would have stopped prop 13, but the legislature failed to do it. And when the legislature fails, the people will take it into their own hands.

I see California’s politicians elected on the basis of voting money out of producers pocket to provide benefits to those that don’t produce. I see California depending on the rest of the nation (via the Federal Govt) to bail it out of its 25B morass. When those “easterners’ catch on, they may decline.

Businesses flee because it does not want to fund government. Business flees California AND the US. So goes the tax base and then ‘we the people’ print money. Soon (six months, ten years?) the money won’t be worth the paper it is printed on. Whatever, the bill will be paid with real or fiat money.

Government can not create wealth…only business creates wealth. The government can only divide wealth (into ever smaller slices!) If you want a larger piece of the wealth pie, you must either have a bigger pie (created by business) or you must take more from someone else.

If you choose to elect a government who shares the wealth, what will you do when the shares are all gone?

The solution is to elect politicians who understand that 2 + 2 will always equal 4. A solution is to support the growth of wealth.

But, then we are in a democracy (so much for the Federal Republic the Constitution provided) and it is so easy to vote resources from someone else. As Churchill said “in a Democracy, the people get exactly what they deserve”.

I don’t know nasomomdele there are large parts of California that are pretty thirld world-ish. But then there’s Newport Beach. Wow!

I’ve talked to two realtors in northern California in the last week who say business is booming. One feels that California is in recovery and the rest of the nation will follow.