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This should be a good discussion. I think the men of the Church are pretty hit and miss. Like any group, there are some who employ only the most desirable behaviors and some who hang on to entirely undesirable ones. I wish I knew the determining factors for the difference; I’m going to bet there is some correlation with age, home of origin, disposition of females in life (such as spouses, co-workers, friends, and daughters), perhaps testimony/understanding of the gospel teachings. Most importantly, I think, is the individual’s empathy skills–I don’t think we socialize our boys very well to develop empathy, so if it is not a natural talent, they may never decide to work on it. |
I think the poem is intended as a parody of what post-feminist women expect of men more than it is a critique of boorish men behavior. So how is the Church doing? Well, that’s a tough one to answer. Sure, Mormon men are, in general, more domesticated than the average American male. But they still have issues of one sort or another, so long as the Y chromosome exists. |
I’m with Greg. It seems the poem is talking about men that are repentant about their all-male boorishness. Are you asking whether the Church is good at preventing men from reforming themselves? Or are you asking whether it prevents male boorishness in the first place? I’m guessing the latter. If that’s the case, you can argue that it’s too good at this. Most of American male society thinks of Mormon men, as a group, as a bunch of sissies. For better or worse. |
Greg and MCQ: My read on the poem is that it both a critique of male boorishness, and a warning that women better be careful about what they wish for. I think MCQ is probably right about what American male society thinks of Mormon men, but I guess I’m more curious about what LDS women think of Mormon men. Non-LDS men aren’t affected by the Church’s patriarchy (Prop 8 arguments, etc. aside) like LDS women are. Do LDS women look at LDS men and think, as ESO points out, “LDS guys tend to lack empathy.” Or do they think, “Maybe LDS guys lack empathy, but they’re a lot better than the rest of American male society”? |
I don’t think LDS men lack empathy to a greater degree than non-LDS men. I will admit that I tend to expect better of Mormon men than non, so any disappointment is surely due to that expectation than an actual deficiency. I wonder why you guys think non-members would think LDS men are sissies? If anything, I see LDS men living a more traditional (less housework) life than non-member peers. That, of course is a broad generalization that includes several generations. |
(stereotype alert!) Non-members think LDS men are sissies because they don’t hang out at the bar watching Monday Night Football and drinking too much with their buddies. What ob the list of “boorish” behavior above is boorish? Telling jokes? Shoulder-punches? What on earth is to be gained by self-help books and couples renewal weekends? Within the norms of polite society, people should just be what they are. If a guy doesn’t want to hug another guy ’cause it makes him feel weird, that’s OK. If a guy is all into a couples renewal weekend, that’s OK too. |
ESO and Ann, my non-Mormon friends in college and grad school tended to think of Mormon guys as sissies not just because of their non-drinking, but also because of their adherence to the law of chastity, lack of swearing, tendency to marry early, have a lot of kids, spend a lot of time with family, attend church meetings, study scriptures, etc. It’s a lot more than just being non-drinkers. ESO: After marriage, it may be true that Mormon men more often live a more traditional marriage lifestyle than their non-Mormon counterparts, but in my experience that doesn’t mean they are more “traditional” in the sense that they do less housework, etc. My sense is that, despite the fact that a lot of Mormon men are married to SAHMs, they do more child care, housework, yardwork, and spend more time at church and at home with their families than Non-mormon men of their same age. This would, of course, qualify them as sissies in the eyes of those same non-Mormon men. Not agreeing, just stating a fact. |
The church has a good masculinity record in my experience. First, the church has a heroic masculine past: pioneers, empire builders, and etc. My own male ancestors are largely a bunch of cowboys and ranchers that fit into this narrative. More recently, it’s true, I grew up in the suburbs. But thanks in part to the church, I spent my youth camping and playing hoops with the guys. Finally, for me, BYU football is an expression of Mormon masculinity. (12-1 this year! BYU will lose a close game to OU and then run the table from there. Write it down!) D&C 121 and certain talks given almost every Priesthood Session of general conference may be hostile or at least ambivalent to standard American conceptions of masculinity. So? Am I supposed to feel bad that some dudes swilling beer and watching football at some bar don’t think I am as manly as them? Because, although I like football and hanging with the guys, I would rather be at home tucking my kids in bed? No! Maybe, just maybe, Jesus Christ himself wouldn’t pass as manly enough for some of these dudes. But that’s their problem. |
I agree with #7. Most of my conservative Mormon bball buddies spend most of their time when not at work caring for kids or doing housework. Me included. Bball happens after 9PM after the kids are in bed. |
OU 45-60 It will be ugly. |
Is this the same Hoagland whose wife was a BYU law professor? |
Most of American male society thinks of Mormon men, as a group, as a bunch of sissies. I don’t think sissy is exactly the right word. I think it’s more of “uptight” and “unwilling to have fun”. |
OU 37-14. And only if Hall is replaced in the 4th quarter for the backup to get the second score. OU will be held to only 37 because they have a new offensive line. |
Oh come on! BYU will score at least 28 points. BYU is loaded at the skill positions. And BYU will face better defenses this year (FSU, TCU, and even Utah). The bad news: OU will easily be the best offense BYU will play this year. |
“BYU is loaded at the skill positions” Famous last words. |
Oh I see. Well, I guess I’d rather be considered a sissy than brainwashed, which is what plenty of people think of women in our Church. |
I love that a post on male masculinity inevitably veered off into an argument about football. I guess we just can’t help it. Stephen M.: I don’t think so; I’m pretty sure there’s no LDS connection, but we could always start a rumor. I know that Bono had an LDS girlfriend that inspired the song “One.” So Mormon men are an interesting breed. On one hand, the Church has a very conservative, traditional culture in terms of gender roles. But at the same time we tend to avoid the “hanging out at the bar watching Monday Night Football and drinking too much with our buddies” that Ann mentions. |
Oh come on! BYU will score at least 28 points. BYU is loaded at the skill positions. (a) They say this every year. And they’re a half-step slower than the TCUs of the world (I was there last year; they were decidedly behind in the talent. (b) Unfortunately for BYU, they still have Max Hall. |
I really think that we LDS men undervalue our position relative to other men. I went to my 20-year HS graduation celebration last year and ran into so many classmates I hadn’t talked to in 20 years (and I’ve connected with so many more on FB) who were really, really curious about our missionary work and what impact it’s had on my life. So many men in their mid-30s are looking to figure out where their life has gone — they are now encountering family life, or else have lost it in divorce, and they aren’t happy with the direction life has taken. And frankly, Mormon men (particularly those who have served missionaries and married at 23, don’t drink, do things with their family) are strange beings. In high school, I was viewed as this *strange* creature. As I approach 40, I’m not really that weird anymore. (And so many people my age have been in rehab.) I think our standards are tougher on the young men than on the men. |
“I know that Bono had an LDS girlfriend that inspired the song “One.— Um, What? |
MCQ: Sure. I think they were dating right around the time Steve Martin and Snoop Dog got baptized. (This lame Mormon legend started because if someone uses the word “temple” it must be about Mormons. Hence, “Love is a temple, love the higher law” had to have been referring to something Mormon.) |
I think this could be Bill’s story; I wonder if this isn’t a baby boom generation deal. Because I’m finding a lot of women my age rebelling a bit against their roles in the home and men on the cusp of retirement are realizing how much they need their wives and needing intimacy and understanding. It’s kind of funny. |