27 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
Those are great examples, I feel we too often judge people too harshly in this regard. Sometimes people say, do, believe certain things because that is how they have always done it etc. Sometimes a little nudge in the right direction will get someone to re-evaluate themselves and they can change for the better. I think a very Christlike trait is to be able to evaluate ones self to change ones own behavior. These leaders are good examples to all of us. |
This is a great post, Tagore, but it leaves me with a lingering question: Once, a priesthood leader in a ward I used to be in showed up to the ward Halloween party dressed like this. How should I have confronted him about his error? Would he have admitted he was wrong? |
Of course, even leaders without the Priesthood are assumed to be leading by the spirit, right? Both the Sunbeam teacher and the Primary president are ostensibly leading by the spirit–what happens when they disagree? Generally, we would let the PP have her way, but can we really say she was more led by the Spirit than those “under” her? Hard to discuss in generalities. Although I am very opinionated, I have always had a pretty easy time of admitting when I was wrong, and don’t find particular shame in it. That is why I am perhaps insensitive in suggesting that others might be in error. Since it is no big deal to me, I am surprised when it is a big deal to others. |
I believe that the lord wants us to come to him with solutions, then the Lord will confirm to us whether those solutions are good ones. If the Lord confirms to one leader that one solution is a good one, another leader may come up with a different solution that is also confirmed as good by the spirit. I’m convinced that there are often multiple solutions that are “right” for many situations. Sometimes there are wrong ones too. Besides that, some people don’t actually use the spirit in their callings really. To do what they think they should do without bothering to ask the lord. It appears that JFS was doing just this in regards to blacks in the pre-existence. |
Orwell: You’re calling that error? Sorry; that looks inspired to me. ESO: Good point about church leaders without the priesthood. It certainly applies to anyone, but I think that sometimes priesthood leaders think that their priesthood gives what they are doing an added weight of authority, so it’s harder to admit when they’re wrong. But you’re right; I’m sure there are plenty of RS presidents and primary presidents out there who have a hard time as well. Ian:
I completely agree, which is why the hymn “Choose the Right” contains error: “There’s a right and a wrong to every question.” |
These are great stories. I think we have to be careful, though, not to let them go to our heads too much. Sometimes I think it’s too easy to think that it’s our job to be “the person” that will get change as we think it should happen. And yet, ‘we’ are just as prone to error as ‘they’ (leaders) are. I also notice within myself that if I get too caught up in what ‘should’ change (I’m an org change person by training and wiring, and am big on feedback with local leaders), I can get too caught up in what I think is right, instead of just sort of letting people be people and letting things be. Sometimes I think we need to do the latter. I don’t know where that line is, but I do believe there is a line between good feedback and too much focus on what we think is ‘wrong.’ |
Your two examples seem to be very different to me. In a one-on-one session, Joseph Fielding Smith seems humble enough to admit some small degree of variability in the doctrine which he, in public and published settings, continued to teach his whole life. Furthermore, other apostles of his time also taught as doctrine this “pre-existence” doctrine. And, finally, the Church itself never came out to teach, train, and re-indoctrinate local leaders or members that the misconceived doctrine was untrue. In fact, from my perspective, many members continue to believe a similar “pre-existence” doctrine, not always with race involved, though. The difference in your examples is in the magnitude of the problem that was created. I’m not devaluing the individual YW who were taught “incorrect” doctrine via the stake president’s counselor, but Joseph Fielding Smith’s ideas of this doctrine were very wide spread, as in the whole church believed it. |
I’d be as concerned about those higher up in the hierarchy getting wrong. There is the story of J.F.Smith, again, when the Apostles decided on the ban against polygamy. He didn’t favor it, but said something to the effect that he had never gone against the wishes of the Apostles. And then, of course, there is the example of the Quakers sitting in silence, meditating in the Spirit, and often coming up with total peace about this or another decision. But for an individual, being ‘in the Spirit’ is more dangerous. How can we be sure we are in it? I heard a lecture by two dudes wanting to start yet another Protestant denomination, who claimed they were always in the Spirit, so their decisions were infallible. Popes to Apostles to Church Presidents – this idea of infallibility. I wonder if the Apostles went into serious prayer about some of the decisions by past Prophets, what they would come up with. Of course, with regard to allowing ‘coloreds’ into the Temple, they apparently did hear differently, as also about polygamy. If they were to pray about the Mark of Cain or the falling away of the Lamanites into brown colored groups, what they would come up with? Scientific evidence seems clear enough on this , but would God speak to them through His Spirit? Would He set them right? Hasn’t so far so I’m not holding my breath! I do think that God works through authority, however, so it is probably best to simply pray for those in charge. |
My problem is saying it nice. I’ve pretty much never heard anybody in authority admit error. But that could be the way I present it, too. |
In thinking about my post above, I’m not at all sure that when changes have occurred, such as disallowing polygamy and allowing Blacks in the Temple, that it represents a change in the original principles (polygamy, cursed Blacks) but rather it is simply conformity to a new status quo (strong anti-polygamy and anti- segregationist public opinion), so that in making the changes, we see that no apology is given. True repentance means several things in cases such as these, including real remorse, attempted restitution and reconciliation. We don’t see these elements here. But thinking of it further, would it mean a total destruction of strongly held beliefs in the Book of Mormon, its authenticity, etc. I have a feeling some Apostles would like to “come clean” but are prevented from doing so by destruction it might cause to Church foundation beliefs. All would then be called into question. Leadership at any level is very difficult, weighing the pros and cons of even the minutia – very stressful, so those in authority should be given at least a modicum of respect for the job they are trying to do, if nothing else. Deep down I have to wonder what Gordon Hinckley and other Apostles really feel or felt. Do they lead two lives? I suppose they must. Trying their hardest to maintain basic Church doctrine while allowing the Church members to conform to societal changes and the many revolutions in scientific knowledge. A balancing act for sure. And this must be true right down to ward level. |
“There’s a right and a wrong to every question” That should literally be read, for every question there exists at least one answer that is right, and at least one answer that is wrong. With few exceptions, I think that is a pretty safe assertion. |
A guy who I baptized on my mission said, “Feliz e’ o homen que se corrige.” Which roughly translates to “Happy is the man who corrects himself.” I thought this was quite insightful at the time. The guy turned out to be insane though. |
When I was a bishop there was never a shortage of people telling me I was wrong. I was wrong to call Sister X to calling Y. I was wrong to wear a blue shirt. I was wrong to have so many trips to the storehouse. I was wrong to not have more trips to the storehouse. I was wrong to go running in the park in a muscle shirt. I was wrong to implement early morning seminary. I was wrong to cancel the ward BBQ. Trust me on this, our leaders don’t lack for people telling them are wrong in civil, non-accusatory ways or otherwise. What a significant body of the church lacks is the capacity to accept that there can be honest disagreement in God’s true church and an acceptance that every decision made in the church doesn’t require His imprimatur. Of course I could be wrong about that. |
Mark D But I suppose there could be questions with no answer – but I’ll have to think about this. |
I would swear on a stack of Books of Mormon that I heard Pres. Smith say to us missionaries in 1962 that “if evolution is what it took for the Lord to create mankind, then that’s how he did it,” or something very much like that. I wonder if anyone else had a similar experience. I think it is stunning to look back on, considering his hostility to evolution for most of his adult life. |
arj–lol. I like that saying too. Mathew–a muscle shirt is ALWAYS wrong. I hope you went shirtless the next time. |
Kay (7): That’s a good point. I was talking to Gene England about this issue several years ago, and he made a similar observation about Bruce McConkie’s retraction of things he said about blacks and the priesthood after the 1978 revelation: “I’m glad that Elder McConkie retracted the things he had said or written, but those things are responsible for generations of racism in the Church.” McCoy (10): Armand Mauss has written some interesting things about that idea. He looks at the Church through an institutional survival lens, and suggests that while a public apology, fuller explanation, etc. about denying blacks the priesthood would make some of us happy, it might be quite problematic for the Church’s overall membership (and hence, institutional survival). Mark D. (11): Thanks for pointing that out; maybe I can sing Choose the Right now without feeling annoyed. arJ (12): Heh-heh. Crazy people can be the fount of much wisdom. Matthew (13): Well put! Yes, I imagine that would be quite obnoxious. |
I think this is funny. The fact that this post exists show that it is apart from the norm for priesthood leaders to apologize. And then for example, you cite instances where fault was acknowledged, but only in private, not in public. Any consolation you receive from these must be tempered by the true novelty of such instances and further by the refusal of public acknowledgment. I have a number of JSF’s books and fail to see where his ‘mistake’ was corrected. |
Smithlover:
It’s a comic work of wonder.
Precisely. That’s what I pointed out in the first few sentences of my post. But not just priesthood leaders. Most people. I think it’s human nature, and priesthood leaders aren’t excluded simply because they hold the priesthood.
I guess it depends on the situation. There are many instances when I think correcting the action is sufficient; no public acknowledgment is necessary. But your point is well taken: I’m not aware of any instance where JFS then publicly admitted the mistake. That would have been especially impressive (and most welcome). |
If you can get a priesthood leader to admit they’re wrong, it’s a miracle. In my experience. But in southern Utah, they think their butts are made out of gold. My bishop refused to believe a man in our ward had sexually abused a child for years. He chose to believe the man’s lies and gave him the priesthood and tried to fellowship him into activity. It came back in his face because the man eventually joined a born again Christian church and the man’s brother admitted they’d abused the girl. He has never, not once, admitted that I told the truth, never apologized for his treatment of me over it. I still speak to him, but I don’t respect him. They seem to believe they are infallible and if they’re not, they still think they deserve something akin to worship. |
Just followed a link to this site and wish to offer a point of caution. In the example quoted, the question EE asked JFS was very specific- “Do we have to believe X to have good standing in the Church?” JFS’s answer was also specific-”No, you do not have to believe X to be in good standing in the Church.” Without a personal revelation on the matter, viewing the quoted example as evidence to support anything more or less than what it unequivocally does is to commit an error of the exact same nature JFS demonstrated in the quote. It is pure speculation if “It is definitely not stated”, even if it “makes sense” and only “lesser men/women” use assumptions to “try to justify or rationalize their positions”. |
Quote from Tagore: “McCoy (10): Armand Mauss has written some interesting things about that idea. He looks at the Church through an institutional survival lens, and suggests that while a public apology, fuller explanation, etc. about denying blacks the priesthood would make some of us happy, it might be quite problematic for the Church’s overall membership (and hence, institutional survival).” In a way, looking at the subject in this way brings me some relief. Perhaps I don’t need to ponder further the discrepancy between what the Church teaches and what science does if I have a rationale for understanding the Church’s seemingly deceitful position. I’m sure it is the case with the U.S. Presidency as well, sometimes there is a need for being guarded in speech at the expense of slurring the truth. But with the Church it may go much further than this in that a significant part of the world’s population is affected (Blacks). In the case of polygamy, it isn’t quite the case; as far as I am aware, there is no prohibition agains having more than one wife other than Paul’s admonition that a bishop should be the husband of only one wife. The problem came with a basic conflict between the Church and how polygamy was perceived in the European-based, American culture of that time. I read some years ago an issue of “Ensign” devoted somewhat to the Book of Mormon, and recall how one of the apostles, I believe it was, had said, look, if you are seeking a true history of the Americas, you won’t find it here, and if you are seeking a true geography of the Americas, you won’t find it here, because the basis of the Book of Mormon is a spiritual message, and the behavior we should follow. OK I can accept that, just as I accept the fact that the spiritual basis of the Bible is far more important that some of the,seemingly, myth based parts (Jonah and the whale, for example). (Although an introduction to the original book by Joseph Smith claims it as a true history) If the leaders of the Church are aware that there is serious question about some portions of the Book of Mormon, particularly those which have affected Blacks directly, do they have a responsibility to be forthright about them and make public apology? Or does the survivability of the largely white membership of the institution take precedence? Not to make a judgment call here, but when is truth more important than expediency? |
If you can get a priesthood leader to admit they’re wrong, it’s a miracle. In my experience. But in southern Utah, they think their butts are made out of gold. Noting the obvious qualifier … Southern Utah. *My* experience in the Great Lakes area and in the South (and Texas), bishops have always been open to discussion and willing to change their mind. I know of only one bishop I’d vote to tar and feather, but he became an idiot after he got released, retired, and went nuts with xenophobia… The only other “crazy” bishop I’ve had was in Utah. Go figure. |
Now, in all seriously, I think it’s just a case of what side you’re on. One of my best friends is currently a bishop. He made to make a decision regarding the operations of the Cub Scouts in the ward that made some of the members upset. Having been exposed to the process by which and with which inputs he had to go on, it was the right decision for the ward, the stake, and the majority of the people involved. But you had 3-4 sisters in the ward who started to openly complain about the decision he made. At some point, they were told that the decision was made and was final. One mother threatened to take her child to a non-member pack, and the bishop indicated that he would support her decision to do so. Ya can’t make everyone happy. At some point, leaders will recognize they made a mistake. We should rejoice when they acknowledge it and apologize. Sometimes, though, apologizing just isn’t an option. In other cases — and I think this is actually the bulk of the time — we just perceive they made a mistake but they really didn’t. |
Following on from McCoy 22 So if I understand correctly (duh) out of the 5 billion or so people on this planet, a goodly two thirds reside under the LDS curse of black skin. Never mind that dark skin has survival value in generally being thicker, less prone to attack by bacteria and insects (especially in warm climates)and with value against the scourge of the sun. Thus we forget the survival value and possible evolution of the dark races and simply call them cursed. So this includes the Asians, the Blacks, the Arab types, the Polynesians, the American Indians (the latter two are, of course Lamanites and had to earn their dark skin afresh, as it were, their ancestors presumably starting their lives with lily white genes, which were removed and the colored genes substituted), and what is the curse? Well, according to a late teaching publication of the Church, it really isn’t a curse, as it was earlier called, but merely a way of keeping the races separate, as in mixed marriages (how that occurs I don’t quite understand, however, even Obama might have his doubts about this one). So a group of twelve white men is keeping on “the curse” of much of the rest of civilization and un-civilization because a Book, which may or may not have been written centuries ago, says so. No explanation as to why, no apology for this act, and forgetting about “the curse’s” influence regarding the fulfillment of Christ’s Great Commission to go unto all the world and make deciples of, at least, some of these cursed people, even if they don’t quite fit in. And then let’s go a step further and have all our teachers, including Priesthood leaders carry on this ‘Great tradition of the curse’ going to all the world and teaching it to the lowly lost. And then let’s put a subtle or not so subtle ban on ever, Lord forbid, calling these leaders into question and either making them blush, angry or defensive (uncomfortable in a word). Keep the institution flying, by all means and regardless of cost. We surely don’t want to embarrass leadership. |
But, interestingly enough, the curse has been officially swept aside and never mentioned in polite company. Does it seethe beneath the surface? To some extent, but then it does so with a lot of other religious groups. Hinckley did apparently say something about it all in his 2006 discussion, which was taken to mean that previous leaders were in error. Getting back to the question posed by this thread, it seems a sort of intransigence in the Priesthood teachers has been past along for many years until it has become a sort of ‘way a proper teacher behaves’. So on the main points, no one will step out of line. It is also interesting just how well trained these leaders are. Rather like the Royal Guards at Buckingham Palace – eyes front and center and don’t shift a facial muscle. Not entirely a bad thing, I suppose, but it is interesting. |
RE: #13 Bishop Mathew, ESO’s comment should have further provisos; Yes, wear the muscle shirt if you have the arms & upper body musculature to carry it off. If the shirt looks like its sprayed on, then you can run bare chested. Let’s keep America beautiful! (And give all those LDS couch potatoes an ideal for which they should strive so that they can make their bodies worthy temples of the Holy Spirit!) |