Comments on: Jeffrey Holland Rocks the House http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:49:29 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: annegb http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-115714 annegb Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:37:07 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-115714 This was conclusive to me: "An evil man couldn't have written it and a good man wouldn't have." All the conclusion I needed. This was conclusive to me: “An evil man couldn’t have written it and a good man wouldn’t have.” All the conclusion I needed.

]]> By: queuno http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-115707 queuno Mon, 18 Jan 2010 05:14:40 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-115707 <i>So elder Holland is very wrong the proof is not inconclusive it is lacking in any real evidence that could be possibly accepted by rational scientific methods.</i> Rational scientific methods are fairly limited in adequacy when it comes to things of faith. So elder Holland is very wrong the proof is not inconclusive it is lacking in any real evidence that could be possibly accepted by rational scientific methods.

Rational scientific methods are fairly limited in adequacy when it comes to things of faith.

]]> By: Greg http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-115697 Greg Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:42:19 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-115697 I thought you might be interested in reading a reference to Elder Holland's <a href="http://www.believeallthings.com/4229/apostolic-witness" rel="nofollow">Apostolic Witness</a>. I thought you might be interested in reading a reference to Elder Holland’s Apostolic Witness.

]]> By: Barb http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-114914 Barb Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:57:05 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-114914 Hi again, Annegb! I made comments today under your post about running away. I hope it is okay that I expressed feelings there as I don't know when I would have a chance again with computer problems and no working email. Take care! Hi again, Annegb! I made comments today under your post about running away. I hope it is okay that I expressed feelings there as I don’t know when I would have a chance again with computer problems and no working email. Take care!

]]> By: Chris http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-114739 Chris Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:22:48 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-114739 Annegb, Unfortunately, the state­ment “an evil man couldn’t have and a good man wouldn’t have” is only an exercise in logic; but in no way a valid scientific or historical offer of evidence. Again, it's probably fair to draw the distinction between historical literalness vs. spiritual value/truth. I find most orthodox LDS are satisfied (at least outwardly) with apologetic arguments of this sort. i.e. Literary/spiritual complexity. However, the BOM isn't necessarily a perfectly polished work of literary/spiritual complexity. Take for example the over use of old-English scriptural phrases such as: • And/for it came to pass BOM: (1330), Bible (456 KJV) • Behold BOM: (1635), Bible (1299) -or- • Liberal and frequent use of the name Jesus and Christ prior to his coming. Jesus: Prior to coming = 47 times, during = 69, after coming = 68 Christ: Prior to coming = 233 times, during = 8, after coming = 143 Jesus Christ: Prior to coming = 30 times, during = 4, after coming = 26 • Bible: Frequency of the use Jesus and Christ prior to his coming. Jesus: Prior to coming = 0 times, during = 606, after coming = 337 Christ: Prior to coming = 0 times, during = 60, after coming = 478 Jesus Christ: Prior to coming = 0 times, during = 5, after coming = 184 -or- Very common use of New Testament / Christ taught phrases and concepts (sometime almost word-for-word) -or- The fact the Names with the letter "J" are often used for Hebrew peoples. The letter "J" has never been a part of Hebrew language. (i.e. Jacob, Jesus). If Nephi and Lehi were translated (correctly) why not the true and original name of Jesus: Yahshua? As an active member of the church (over my many years) I've found it hard to dance around these nagging bungles. Though I mostly keep it to myself as I suspect many do. But if the church (leadership) were to finally face these issues, we may be able to progress even farther. (i.e. Black/Priesthood, unpleasant Temple practices removed, etc.). I think it's only a matter of time before the Church adopts a more official "spiritual" acceptance of the BOM. Some leaders already have eluded to this as a result of DNA findings. In fact the introduction to the BOM was recently changed to adapt to this issue. Only, these real changes aren't always visible to the orthodox Latter-Day-Saint (who only obtains information from LDS.org.. Nothing wrong with that. It's just the way it is. Regards, Chris Annegb,

Unfortunately, the state­ment “an evil man couldn’t have and a good man wouldn’t have” is only an exercise in logic; but in no way a valid scientific or historical offer of evidence. Again, it’s probably fair to draw the distinction between historical literalness vs. spiritual value/truth. I find most orthodox LDS are satisfied (at least outwardly) with apologetic arguments of this sort. i.e. Literary/spiritual complexity. However, the BOM isn’t necessarily a perfectly polished work of literary/spiritual complexity. Take for example the over use of old-English scriptural phrases such as:

• And/for it came to pass
BOM: (1330), Bible (456 KJV)

• Behold
BOM: (1635), Bible (1299)

-or-

• Liberal and frequent use of the name Jesus and Christ prior to his coming.
Jesus: Prior to coming = 47 times, during = 69, after coming = 68
Christ: Prior to coming = 233 times, during = 8, after coming = 143
Jesus Christ: Prior to coming = 30 times, during = 4, after coming = 26
• Bible: Frequency of the use Jesus and Christ prior to his coming.
Jesus: Prior to coming = 0 times, during = 606, after coming = 337
Christ: Prior to coming = 0 times, during = 60, after coming = 478
Jesus Christ: Prior to coming = 0 times, during = 5, after coming = 184

-or-

Very common use of New Testament / Christ taught phrases and concepts (sometime almost word-for-word)

-or-

The fact the Names with the letter “J” are often used for Hebrew peoples. The letter “J” has never been a part of Hebrew language. (i.e. Jacob, Jesus). If Nephi and Lehi were translated (correctly) why not the true and original name of Jesus: Yahshua?

As an active member of the church (over my many years) I’ve found it hard to dance around these nagging bungles. Though I mostly keep it to myself as I suspect many do. But if the church (leadership) were to finally face these issues, we may be able to progress even farther. (i.e. Black/Priesthood, unpleasant Temple practices removed, etc.).

I think it’s only a matter of time before the Church adopts a more official “spiritual” acceptance of the BOM. Some leaders already have eluded to this as a result of DNA findings. In fact the introduction to the BOM was recently changed to adapt to this issue. Only, these real changes aren’t always visible to the orthodox Latter-Day-Saint (who only obtains information from LDS.org.. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just the way it is.

Regards,
Chris

]]> By: annegb http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-114688 annegb Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:27:51 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-114688 Barb!! Woohoo! I'll keep my fingers crossed for your computer. Thorn50, I don't think he needed to provide all the stuff you refer to. His statement that "an evil man couldn't have and a good man wouldn't have" was all I needed to hear. I'm a believer, but I thought that was an excellent argument. Barb!! Woohoo! I’ll keep my fingers crossed for your computer.

Thorn50, I don’t think he needed to provide all the stuff you refer to. His statement that “an evil man couldn’t have and a good man wouldn’t have” was all I needed to hear. I’m a believer, but I thought that was an excellent argument.

]]> By: Barb http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-114686 Barb Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:23:39 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-114686 Hi, Annegb! I enjoyed your comments here about Elder Holland and will have to read the talk again thanks to you. Well, I am online for now but not sure how long this rebuilt computer will last. I am not set up to send out emails yet. As it is not very easy to comment on a lot of sites unless you have a google account I want to say hello to some of our mutual friends while I have a chance here. Hope all is going well for Stehen(Ethesis), Bookslinger, Silus Grok, Lisa M., Sarebear(Sara)(read some of her blog but had trouble with my computer or something to post.) I will be reading to catch up on friends. Everything is going well for me. I am still working from home, which I enjoy. Love to all and thanks for friendship and acceptance! Also, hello to DKL! Hi, Annegb! I enjoyed your comments here about Elder Holland and will have to read the talk again thanks to you. Well, I am online for now but not sure how long this rebuilt computer will last. I am not set up to send out emails yet. As it is not very easy to comment on a lot of sites unless you have a google account I want to say hello to some of our mutual friends while I have a chance here. Hope all is going well for Stehen(Ethesis), Bookslinger, Silus Grok, Lisa M., Sarebear(Sara)(read some of her blog but had trouble with my computer or something to post.) I will be reading to catch up on friends. Everything is going well for me. I am still working from home, which I enjoy. Love to all and thanks for friendship and acceptance! Also, hello to DKL!

]]> By: Thorn50 http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-114239 Thorn50 Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:09:01 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-114239 I tend to agree with Chris on this one. Elder Holland gave a very emotive talk but without much substance. He avoided the historical issues of the BOM, the lack of archeological evidence, horses metal etc. Instead he promoted the idea of the BOM being proven through literary complexity. If thats what it takes I'll believe in the Valor, Tolkien works are far more complex. Not discussing the hard evidence and relying on emotion just muddies the waters it may work for mormons desparatly trying to hold on to thier faith but such evidence is laughable in scientific circles. I do believe the ultimate test is a spiritual one but id the mytholoical evidence is not supported by science than I would question it's validity, I feel the same emotional experiences for listening to Verdi or reading Tolkien as I did when a TBM. So elder Holland is very wrong the proof is not inconclusive it is lacking in any real evidence that could be possibly accepted by rational scientific methods. I tend to agree with Chris on this one. Elder Holland gave a very emotive talk but without much substance. He avoided the historical issues of the BOM, the lack of archeological evidence, horses metal etc. Instead he promoted the idea of the BOM being proven through literary complexity. If thats what it takes I’ll believe in the Valor, Tolkien works are far more complex.
Not discussing the hard evidence and relying on emotion just muddies the waters it may work for mormons desparatly trying to hold on to thier faith but such evidence is laughable in scientific circles. I do believe the ultimate test is a spiritual one but id the mytholoical evidence is not supported by science than I would question it’s validity, I feel the same emotional experiences for listening to Verdi or reading Tolkien as I did when a TBM.
So elder Holland is very wrong the proof is not inconclusive it is lacking in any real evidence that could be possibly accepted by rational scientific methods.

]]> By: Chris http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-114007 Chris Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:39:30 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-114007 I guess a very powerful emotional, even angry testimony of the BOM will always trump open and truthful discussion (among Latter-Day-Saints) about the "real" issues surrounding the historical literalness of the BOM. These real issues will not go away (i.e. North American Indians are not the decedents of Lamenites) and strong language and emotional bull-horning will only temporarily delay the inevitable reconciliation of the historical literalness of the BOM (or the Book Of Abraham for that matter). I guess a very powerful emotional, even angry testimony of the BOM will always trump open and truthful discussion (among Latter-Day-Saints) about the “real” issues surrounding the historical literalness of the BOM. These real issues will not go away (i.e. North American Indians are not the decedents of Lamenites) and strong language and emotional bull-horning will only temporarily delay the inevitable reconciliation of the historical literalness of the BOM (or the Book Of Abraham for that matter).

]]> By: Elder Holland’s “Safety for the Soul « Irresistible (Dis)Grace http://www.mormonmentality.org/2009/10/05/jeffrey-holland-rocks-the-house.htm/comment-page-1#comment-113962 Elder Holland’s “Safety for the Soul « Irresistible (Dis)Grace Mon, 12 Oct 2009 06:13:53 +0000 http://www.mormonmentality.org/?p=2454#comment-113962 [...] with them, took. And so, in light of the many bloggers who have addressed this topic in detail or in short, I wonder if I can do so adequately. I wonder if I can provide anything new, or if I can find [...] [...] with them, took. And so, in light of the many bloggers who have addressed this topic in detail or in short, I wonder if I can do so adequately. I wonder if I can provide anything new, or if I can find [...]

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