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I wish I could agree with you on the whole combined opening exercises thing. Maybe I would if it went more like it does with the men. As a YW leader, it’s not our favorite Sunday when we have to go down to the RS room for opening. We get there and we sit and we wait. And we wait. And wait a little more. It rarely starts on time. Then we sit through the RS announcements that seem to take forever. Wait, they do take forever, because any RS sister who has the urge interjects an opinion or random thought on it. When it’s finally over we have all of twenty minutes left for our lesson. As far as getting the information from RS, I have to admit that we do get a binder full of info, but we just don’t have the time to look at all that on a busy Sunday in YW, let alone track down the RS secretary after church and return it. When I don’t know about something I will fully admit that the blame falls on me. I know who my RS leaders are and if I really want to know what’s going on I can call one of them to find out. Or look at the blog they created for announcements, including updates on births, deaths, etc. Or send them an e-mail and specifically ask to be added to the mailing list. I guess I have had enough experience knocking myself out trying to make sure everyone has information for YW activities, only to hear complaints of “but I didn’t know”. Well, then check your dang e-mail more than once a month! Check the blog we set up with ridiculously up-to-date details on every activity, including contact phone numbers. Check the Facebook group we set up just for this purpose. Whew. I guess you can tell that this is a pet peeve of mine and a never-ending source of frustration. Also, I think there are women who don’t care for RS for some of the same reasons the YW don’t want to be there. Some RS women are just obnoxious. This isn’t unique to RS, it happens everywhere you go. Somebody somewhere is bound to be obnoxious. But the last time I taught a RS lesson was horrible. I have never seen people so ready to contradict and point out mistakes in my life. At least the children and the youth have he humility to learn what we’re only doing our best to teach. Again, I hate to be disagreeable, but felt the need to vent. Thank you. |
The only thing worse is to be a man stuck in primary in a new ward with lousy hometeachers. At least some Relief Societies make an effort to sometimes step into the primary room to let the sisters know what’s happening. |
I blame the block schedule, where 80% of what involves members with their ward has to happen all at once. We can be like five brothers sharing a single bedroom fighting each other for space and gaining it only by squashing someone else into a corner. Also, Relief Society rooms seem small if they are meant to accommodate all the adult women. |
This would never work for church, but at my job, the people who really are in the “know” are the smokers. They go out and gossip and tell each other everything. I suck up to them just for the gossip. |
PJ–vent away–happy to provide the forum. I hear you on bending over backwards to inform only to have people whine about not being informed. That has happened to me in both RS and YW. Someone in your ward is working hard with that binder (that movement has not hit mine yet) and I would LOVE for my ward to be more techish–we do not do e-mail or blogs, but they would be useful. I think part of the resistance to announcements via e-mail or blog is the fear that the women who don’t use the internet regularly will be left out; frankly, I think we outnumber them, but, whatever. RE joint opening exercises–I know many people feel as you do. It is very important that the RS make a concerted effort to welcome. But I wonder about our YM–do the EQ really paint on the smiles and warmly welcome them every week like special guests? I have never been to Priesthood OE, but I doubt it. Yet are the YM afraid to go? No–most are eager to get out of Primary and join the men. After a few generations of our YW bing in RS OE, they will feel it is normal, too. RE time wasted in OE–I REALLY hate that, it is very disrespectful. Unfortunately, it happens in my ward’s YW OE, too, so they can’t blame the RS. But you can–tell the RS president you have a lengthy lesson (every month) and will need to leave RS at 11:25, or whatever is reasonable. I bet after leaving in the middle of OE once, they will try to start earlier. (I hope). Tim–I think Primary and Nursery can be VERY isolating callings, especially when you are new to a ward. You are right that at least RS might make an announcement there on occasion. When I served in nursery, I served all alone, and it was very hard for me. 2 hours with 5 non-verbal kids? And at the time, Church was my ONLY adult interaction of the week. Ah–it was rough. John Mansfield–yup–lots of wards just can’t have both the men and women meet together for OE at the same time unless they are the only ward in the building. Then someone might be able to use the cultural hall or a few large partitioned rooms. Or one group does Opening Exercises and one does Closing Exercises in the Chapel. Don’t know that there is a very elegant solution, but I suspect that is where we are headed. annegb–who is the parallel group in the Church? I think mothers of young children are a good bet–they tend to congregate in the halls or have weekday playgroups; my ward has a ladies who lunch group (that is my name for them, not theirs–I am sure they just think of themselves as friends)–I am sure they know EVERYTHING. |
My ward in Little Rock had someone come into Primary opening exercises to make RS announcements, and my ward here in DC provides hard copies of the weekly email newsletter. Still…. As for the cool group, it seems to be the latecomers who congregate in the foyer. The ward also has a lunch series and a single women’s FHE but I’m not sure about the cool status of either. |
I don’t know. Priesthood OE have always been very accommodating and welcoming to new Deacons in every ward I have been a part of. There is a very real, ‘welcome to the association of men’ vibe going on. Having been a Bishop and so having had the opportunity to see RS OE vs. P OE, I can say there is a drastically different attitude. In Priesthood, there is joking and a casual, relaxed atmosphere that is not there in the RS. I’ve always wondered if the the flower arraignments and white lace table cloth change things. Anyway, I’ve often commented to my wife how much I wish she could hear the Priesthood General Conference Session for the same reason. The brethren are so much more at ease in that meeting. Talks with jokes. More personable. My two cents. |
Sylvia–oooh–latecomers–that’s a good suggestion. Lon–thanks for that input; it is interesting that PH OE would be more casual given the setting. I also wonder if we had a more parallel program if the sisters would be more accommodating of the YW as they trickle in, rather than looking askance at the group as they trudge in once a month. BTW–I have been in very casual and jovial RS meetings, and many without lace; I think the RS president sets the tone and formal ones might make everyone freeze up. |
Our Primary secretary emails out ward announcements to all the primary workers every week. This is in addition to the monthly newsletter that gets emailed out by the RS, the flyers passed around, and the signups in the hall. We quit trying to announce most things not kid related during Primary. The kids don’t care and most of the adults are distracted by the kids so it seemed pointless. As for nursery, I try to have enough nursery workers that they can rotate out and go to adult classes at least once every 2-3 weeks. I even have several teachers who alternate every other week so they can go to adult classes. I’m sure the bishopric hates that black hole of callings that I create, but I figure I’d rather have half the ward called to Primary so they can all get a break every once in awhile and not get burnt out. I have a plan I’d like to submit to SLC, though. How about we make nursery callings mandatory like Israel’s army service. You have to do a year’s service, but we’ll guarantee it’s no more than 1 year at a time and no more often than every 5 years. I think we’d have better luck getting people called to nursery and Primary if they knew they had an “out” after a year. |
I wonder if a difference with integrating YW vs. YM is that all the males start together. The YM wander in to the chapel or wherever they meet at the same time the men do. The YW, however, meet in their own room, then troop down to the RS room together, then try to find a place to sit en masse. If the girls trickled in along with the women, there might be more mixing and mingling. |
oops, I must have cross-posted with you, ESO |
#2 I hear you. In my most recent Primary calling, there was one Sunday (of many) where I made it late to church because I was preparing my lesson at the last minute, so I missed the first part of Sacrament meeting. Next Sunday I was on time, and shocked to see an entirely new Bishopric on the stand. The old one had been released and the new one called the previous Sunday, and I had absolutely no idea. And if I missed something that big, imagine all the ward goings-on (similar to those in the OP) that I probably missed too. |
The Priesthood opening exercises aren’t really that helpful. I’m convinced that the only reason we have opening exercises in priesthood is because it limits the amount of time available for the lesson in Elder’s Quorum (which is often akin to the 3rd circle of hell). |
I CANNOT AGREE MORE. AND YES, I AM SHOUTING. I sit in PH opening exercises, and I get the 1-minute review of what the young men are doing (20 seconds each), BUT I CANNOT FOR THE LIFE OF ME ever know what the YW are doing (I have a Beehive). They don’t do it in RS, or my wife would hear it. They don’t send out email. They don’t even often tell the girls what they are doing. The only reason I knew, a few weeks ago, about a joint deacon-beehive dance etiquette get-together, was from the deacons. Not the Beehives. Maybe we can expand our email capabilities? We do a great job of emailing the ward about stuff. Except YW. And yes, YW advisors need to keep fathers in the know. |
(I home teach one of the YW advisors. And I casually let her know about my “if homework’s not almost done, no YW” rule. And I added that I cannot apply any “good, better, best” logic to deciding to let my daughter go to YW if I DON’T KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON…) |
I am happily oblivious as to births, goings-on, etc. |
queuno, I agree that YW leaders need to keep parents up to date. I use every means available to me to alert the YW to details, and copy the parents on everything. This may come more from my feeling that if an adult is communicating with my child, I want to know what their talking about. Nevertheless, the parents get all the info. |
I have served as the YW President 5 times over the past 16 yrs. (I love love love the youth, but the ALL THOSE meetings and yes, even sometimes the programs have tested my very sanity.) Here are a few observations from 12 years experience that might be helpful. 1) email is an essential aspect of effective inter-auxiliary communication. Not utilizing the forum for fear of making the non techi feel left out?… That’s the crazy crap that makes my head explode. 2) Only the Laurels should be invited to the once per month RS opening exercises. Most RS rooms just cannot accommodate the influx of bodies when all the YW and their leaders attend. And it is far less disruptive and chaotic for both groups that way. 3) On those Sundays, the RS announcements should wait until the YW have been dismissed for their classes. As a YW leader I was always frustrated by the lengthy time wasting announcements, not to mention the “music moment”, (killmekillmekillme) and would have opted out of the combined OE all together. But I have done some surveys of my college age YW, and 100% of the girls have indicated that they felt more comfortable transitioning into RS because of the experience they had in occasionally attending. In one ward, we would have the older girls stay for lessons once per month, which had some pros and cons, but again, the graduated girls found the overall exposure to RS to have been a positive thing. I could actually wax on, and on, and on, but it occurs to me that Morrissey was right; the world is full of crashing bores and I am one of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2GJXatOiaI&feature=related Peace out. |
SecÂond, your BeeÂhive should be keepÂing you informed herÂself. If she doesn’t know what’s going on, why not? It *is* a girl-run program, but I’m serious — there is no communication in the YW meetings about Wednesday night. The leaders and the class presidents know, but not the rest of them. Yes, my beehive should be more open about asking, but for a relative new 12-yo, that can be a bit intimidating. Seriously – I had to order her Personal Progress materials myself. The YW prexy never gave them to her, despite my asking 3 or 4 times. |
Re my 19 – there’s definitely some thinking that “the girls not in leadership don’t need to know, because they will just be there anyway; we’ll only mention something if they have to dress special or bring something” |
hey queno the current YW leadership in our ward refuse to tell the girls what is happening on Mutual night. Their reasoning is that the girls should be there regardless of the activity, and if they don’t think it sounds good, they may opt out. Maybe the leadership in your ward has a similar mind set. I think this policy is a bit bizarre, but I don’t run the show. |
Renee - I think that’s a terrible, terrible policy, and we just won’t be bullied. We suffer the same thing with Cub Scouts. I keep the Den Leader apprised of what we’re working on, and I ask for the same consideration from her so that I can decide if we’ll just let him go and have fun (even if he’s done it already) or else working on something else at home. No emails from her either. We’ve got my daughter’s Personal Progress work mapped out over the next couple of years, and we can work on most of it as a family if the YW activities aren’t meeting her needs or interfering with school work. Yes, I’m a jerk. I just want to be in the loop, so that my family can make decisions. Not keeping us in the loop is fundamentally wrong. |
Agreed it is a terrible policy to keep the youth (and parents) out of the loop. But I’ve seen wards where I would have tempted to do the same thing. Announce a fun activity and you have near 100% attendance. Announce a service project and no one comes… Batting practice is more important. Or that’s the only night the youth can work on a particular school project. I can understand why that would drive many a leader batty. |
But I’ve seen wards where I would have tempted to do the same thing. Announce a fun activÂity and you have near 100% attenÂdance. Announce a serÂvice project and no one comes… BatÂting pracÂtice is more imporÂtant. Or that’s the only night the youth can work on a parÂticÂuÂlar school project. Agreed, but give us parents some benefit of the doubt to help our children make good decisions on what is best. Leaders who oversee weekday activities (and hey, I’ve been there before) need to be cognizant of the realities of our children’s lives — they have school, sports, music lessons, etc. YW/Cub Scouts/etc. is *not* their only activity. Sometimes, we’re paying hundreds of dollars for those opportunities. They have lots of homework in the advanced courses (even in middle school now, they are on Pre-AP tracks that will prepare them for college. Any youth leader who won’t tell my child or me what they are doing for youth night is either ignorant of the reality of life or is disrespecting our family, period. Again, give us parents the benefit of the doubt here. |
To play devil’s advocate here (’cause I agree with you, queuno!), you as a leader have given the parents the benefit of the doubt. You have clearly announced the activities. Made announcements and phone calls. And the attendance numbers don’t lie. Laser tag? One kid misses. Service project at the local senior center? Two kids come. Over and over and over and over again. So… what do you do? Schedule nothing but entertainment and fun? Or stop announcing the activities ahead of time? Obviously, the better choice is to teach why service is important and help the kids get their testimony of service. But I gotta say, a big chunk of my testimony of service came attending service activities I would never have thought I would enjoy. |
I tend to agree with you ESO – let the women/YW have a combined OE. On the other hand, why not do all the announcements to the ward as a whole in a SS OE right after Sacrament? |
JES–make that a stint in nursery every 10 years, and you have a deal (ps–in the unit where I was in the nursery, I was the only one working that job–it was not ideal, but it was a branch and they just didn’t have the personel). Bro. Jones–very funny! Jota G–it can’t be THAT bad queuno–yup–e-mail would be great, or a google calendar, or something. Mike S–some people can do that; I like to know what’s going on PJ–agreed on ccing parents on everything Renee–agreed on e-mail; for my girls, bringing them all to RS works better–if it was just Laurels, it would often be just one or two girls and they don’t want to go alone–sending the whole group feels more secure to them. Thanks for those stats and thanks for the Moz. Lon–the sad thing is, I see that dynamic in adult activities, too. |
“if they knew they had an “out†after a year…” LOL. Sunday night, I got the phone call asking if I’d be game for my 5th year. (I said yes.) Been in Primary since the ward boundary realignment put me in the ward. I am utterly, totally, completely out of the loop. |
Ah, Coffinberry–you are a saint! |
A lot of women hate RS. I hear it’s all the crying. |
My Laurels hate going in for OE, so I tried skipping it and just having them attend a full lesson quarterly. We went for the first lesson – I was bored to tears and the girls said to let them know ahead of time when we were going to do that again so they could stay home that Sunday. My girls feel that their time is so short in YW, they would rather just stay there. They all go to college or single wards after graduation so there really isn’t a problem with transitioning into RS – they are looking forward to it. So I am just letting them enjoy YW while they can(opening exercises are lots more relaxed there then in RS). |
MCQ–maybe for some, but certainly not all. Sally–it is very true that the girls who start off their RS experience in student wards have significantly fewer trepidations (after all, there are no old women, and it is pretty much YW without reciting the theme), that is certainly not universal. I have known many women who went through SR YW (RS in student wards) and then had problems when they hit a family ward. I taught RS one Sunday when the YW stayed for the lesson–problem is, they didn’t tell me, and I planned the lesson VERY differently for the adults than I would have had I known the YW would be there. I would encourage you to let the RS know when you are coming or offer to teach the lesson yourself, so you can ensure it is palatable to the YW. Also, you know, I am not really someone who gets very wound up in “but the prophet SAID” kind of arguments, but this specific entreaty to participate in joint OE has been issued through First Presidency letters more than once in the past 5 years. That makes me believe it is a pretty serious request. Even though I, personally, may not see the need and compliance becomes a huge pain when I am dragging reluctant YW down the hall, I really gotta wonder why the First Presidency would take it so seriously. I also wouldn’t really want to be the model to my YW of ignoring specific instructions that are too hard or I don’t like. Lastly, as I said, the YM have no problem with joint OE. Is it because they are so much more mature, or the men are so much more friendly? Not likely. I am sure it is much more because that is their expectation of the program: the first generation of anything knows the difference, so complain, but for younger kids coming up, joint OE will be their normal ergo, nothing to complain about. I can’t help thinking that if you give in to THESE girls, you will have to have the same fight with the next set, and if you give in to them, that will simply postpone the fight until the next generation. It seems it would be much better just to make joint OE the new normal and be done with it: go into RS and then have treats during your class, or something. [ugh--can't believe I just suggested treats--don't get me started on that.] Anyway, Sally–you are far from alone. I am in the stake presidency and the units who have complied without complaint or fighting it in some way are in the minority. I just think it is important. |
“Any youth leader who won’t tell my child or me what they are doing for youth night is either ignoÂrant of the realÂity of life or is disÂreÂspectÂing our famÂily, period.” “Lon–the sad thing is, I see that dynamic in adult activÂiÂties, too.” They’re related aren’t they? How much disprespect are you showing to the ward and its leaders when you need to know what is going on before deciding if your kid will participate? When our children reach that age (and I have two that are) shouldn’t we take the Tue or Wed night as a given before deciding what activities our child will add? The pick and choose attitude naturally transfers to the adult if the child was taught that by their parents. |
KLC–I am with you on that; Church activities are a given in our house. Your homework isn’t done? You should have planned better and now you will have to stay up late and finish it when you get home. That league always practices on Tuesdays? Let’s find one that practices on Thursdays so we don’t have conflicts. I want Church attendance (including auxiliary activities) to be the rule and not the exception. That’s just how I roll. |
Lon (25) – I’ve already stated — give us parents the benefit of the doubt, that we’ll have our children at service activities. (33) The pick and choose attiÂtude natÂuÂrally transÂfers to the adult if the child was taught that by their parents. A bit unfair, and a bit naive. You should have planned betÂter and now you will have to stay up late and finÂish it when you get home. That league always pracÂtices on TuesÂdays? Let’s find one that pracÂtices on ThursÂdays so we don’t have conÂflicts. I want Church attenÂdance (includÂing auxÂilÂiary activÂiÂties) to be the rule and not the excepÂtion. A bit naive. At least where I live, you can’t control leagues and teams. You join a league, you’re locked into their play schedule (and we don’t play on Sunday). You are assigned to a team, you roll with their practice schedule. And I’m sorry, but any youth leader who disrespects schoolwork should be released. (My daughter has no control over play practice, and usually gets home at 6 — YM/YW is at 7. If she’s got less than an hour of homework to complete, we’re good. But I’m not keeping her up until midnight just because someone wants to do a Beehive activity involving makeup. Auxiliary activities are *not* mandatory in the Church; never have been, never will. I would categorize the priority as (a) Sunday (b) Seminary (c) Personal Progress activities (d) fun activities, with (a)-(c) at the top of the priority list. CHURCH BASKETBALL/VOLLEYBALL are not priorities. Or as I tell my children, (a)-(b) and possibly (c) can get them into BYU, (d) won’t. |
I need to add, that I am too poor for my kids to get involved in too many extras, so that helps. queuno–I don’t understand why you think it naive to have had different experiences and expectations than you. I think my comment was pretty clearly an “as for me and my house” kind of comment. Where I live, you know the practice and game schedules before you sign your kid up and plunk down the money. So if the town recreation department’s team doesn’t work for my family, I can try the YMCA team or a neighboring town’s team, or a private team, or the school team, or the JCC’s team, or play in spring instead of fall, etc etc. Lots of options. Where people have significantly fewer options are with school-sponsored extras–you can’t go and be in the neighboring school’s musical just because their practices are always 3-4:30 and your school does 5-7. I certainly was in school plays (and school basketball) that interfered with YW, but I made that choice to accept 3-4 absences at Mutual per season. I also listed my work availability as every day but Sunday and Tuesday during HS and specifically requested every Super Saturday off. I was a super nerd, yes, but I was committed to my church activities. In my experience in middle and high school and now in many elementary schools is that homework is not a surprise; anything other than a half-hour commitment is generally assigned many weeks in advance. LDS kids are not the only ones who are busy and most families need some lead time on very time intensive projects. Also, most really time-intensive extra curricular at school (like plays or teams) are scheduled with at least a half or full hour between school and practice–I got most of my homework done during those gaps between activities. I understand your disdain for make-up–it’s not my thing either. But the activity at church is not, of course, about make-up. It is about building a Zion community within that class through common experiences. It is pretty hard to warm up to the girl who only shows up to YW when it is deemed convenient or worthwhile or fun; most girls would choose to be friends with people who are there through good times and bad. Personal Progress can be useful in building lifelong habits, but in my opinion, building meaningful relationships with my LDS peers is more important than completing canned “goals.” (Yes, I have issues with PP). Anyway, that’s my take on this right now. Maybe my view will evolve and maybe yours will. What is clear is that you have your family as your number one priority which is entirely appropriate. Every family has different lines, and I am only describing mine, not saying that you should adopt them. |
queuno, I can only go by what you write. What else would you it but pick and choose? Let me know what’s going on and I’ll let you know if we’ll be there sounds like pick and choose to me. And I would say, like ESO, that naivete is thinking a one hour week night activity on makeup is just about cosmetics. |
queuno (25) — I’ve already stated — give us parents the benefit of the doubt, that we’ll have our children at service activities. And when they don’t? I dead serious about this. I have personally witnessed this effect. Literally no attendance at a service project. Numerous excuses (by youth _and_ their parents). Peter had basketball practice. Molly had play practice. Etc. Next week, laser tag? Despite baseball season still being underway and the play still being practiced, everyone can (and does) make it. What does the leader do *then*? Both activities build the youth group’s camaraderie. But I learned a lot more Christlike behavior at service projects than I ever did at a fun activity. You mentioned before you have a Beehive. I would seriously consider the idea that the leaders have had this problem before your daughter ever entered the program and you are now paying the price for giving prior parents the benefit of the doubt. Which obviously isn’t fair to you or your daughter. And as I have said, in the long term, keeping the kids (and their parents) in the dark isn’t a productive strategy. It only fosters resentment between the families and the leaders. But I sure do understand the temptation to do it and when I personally experience it, I cut the leaders some slack. [Obviously, I am using made up names, activities and excuses to avoid specific accusations or judgement.] |
Getting back on the OT, and addressing ESO in #32, I think a lot has to do with bring the boys in as Deacons when they are still young enough to be enthusiastic about being considered a ‘man’. I think we would have drastically different results in you kept the Aaronic Priesthood separate from the Melchizedek until they were 18 or even 16. By that point, I would imagine the Priests would not be thrilled at the prospect either. But after attending Priesthood OE for approx. 4 years, it is just the norm and to be expected. |
Lon (#38)–I would be VERY surprised if the lack of communication in queuno’s ward (or anyone’s) was by design; I think it is just ineffective. But I still share your frustration at picking and choosing–totally appropriate in for-profit ventures, and really problematic with volunteer forces. Lon (#39)–I think you are exactly right. I heard a YW complaining about going into RS OE in my ward and I asked her why her brothers didn’t have any problem doing the same thing; she told me with a straight face that it was because they were “used” to it and if she had started earlier, she would be fine with it, too. She was 13. |
If homework is the priority and interferes with YM/YW on a particular night, or if the team has a game, or there is a rehearsal for the school play, then what does it matter what that night’s particular church activity is? |
Back to the OP point about communication, my wife had an interesting experience over the last two weeks. Two weeks ago, at the suggestion of the YW President, my wife hosted a Christmas card-making party at our house. She has tons of supplies, like paper, ribbons, and stickers, plus punches, die cuts, stamps, fancy scissors, the whole shebang, or nearly. This was announced in RS and in Primary. All people had to do was to show up. Two people came, two hours late (neither one was the YW President). When she complained about the turnout on Facebook, she got all kinds of people saying they would have come if only, etc. So she set up another time on Facebook only. Seven people came, including one who moved out of the ward over a year ago and another who gave birth the next day, even in the face of a winter storm that shut down businesses and events all over the city. Maybe Facebook is the answer. |
CS Eric–interesting. We do advertise our stake YW stuff on Facebook; I don’t know how effective it is, but I say try anything. |
The Bishop in my sister’s ward in Spokane WA has decided to call three couples to the nursery with each couple serving a year before being relased. Each couple has been called into nursery about 6 months after the previous couple so there’s always a more “veteran” set serving. They know they only have to “do their time” before getting released and with three couples, very rarely is there a need for last minute substitutes. I don’t know if it would work in all wards but at least the isolation is limited to 12 months and you get some men serving in the nursery along with the women. In defense of hard-working RS presidencies, I have to say that even with many solid efforts to get information to absolutely everyone in the ward, it’s really hard to do so. I’ve found that when I hear from people every few months that they need more information or, alternatively, are feeling involved regardless of their callings, that it helps continue a good line of communication with the sisters who aren’t able to actually attend Sunday RS meetings. So get out there and bug your RS President to keep you in the loop! :) |