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So wanting to be alone (#30) even to pray is evidence that we are under the influence of Satan? Awesome. |
Is this a joke? |
hmm. According to the above list, I have gone from Satan’s sycophant to the Spirit’s subordinate around a dozen times today. Duality is so dizzying. |
WasatchMan (2): You think turd on a cake is some kind of joke? I sense you must be confused (v. 21), and therefore, you must not have the Spirit or you’re being prompted by Satan. |
Wow. I don’t even know where to begin with this list. It’s interesting that the author equates extroversion with the Spirit and introversion with being under Satan’s influence. (See items 10 and 30.) As an introvert, I’m often misunderstood, but this is the first time I’ve been accused of not having the Spirit as a result of my personality. Items 21, 24, and 28 are concerning to me because they seem to equate depression with Satanic influences. While I accept that sin can depress people, there are plenty of non-sin causes as well. (The trials and challenges of living in a fallen world, or the medical condition of clinical depression.) |
I think the list is a long ways from perfect, but at the same time it has some valuable points for those who are trying to understand the workings of the Spirit. In a skilled teachers hands the list can be useful. I not a big fan of Especially for Mormons. I think in many instances it seeks to create feelings of the Spirit that can be confusing. President Hunter taught: Let me offer a word of caution on this subject. I think if we are not careful as professional teachers working in the classroom every day, we may begin to try to counterfeit the true influence of the Spirit of the Lord by unworthy and manipulative means. I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself. Howard W. Hunter, Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, 184-185. |
Virtually every point on the list is questionnable, whilst not being outrightly incorrect. When browsing this I thought of the “stupor of thought”. This stupor, as I understand is also feelings of the spirit, assisting you in not going down a certain path. This stupor wouldn’t correlate with the first four points. Classic Mormon stuff this though! How often do we hear someone state “I feel good about this” and put it down to the promptings of the spirit. This phrase has become so common in our culture whether it is to over spiritualise or justify decsions I know not. In my experience most church members seem to not understand the revelatory process and the hard work that often has to be put into it. |
The problem with this position is that implies that *all* darkness, deficiency, evil, confusion, depression, etc. comes from the devil. Classical orthodoxy claims that nothing good exists except by God’s divine grace. The inverse is isn’t orthodox, it is positively Manichean. Does anyone really believe if they can’t sleep at night, it must be Satan’s fault? That it is impossible to sin without his assistance? Even if one reduces Satan to a metaphor for all evil, an absence of good, like an empty room or a silent party. Ordinary darkness is the absence of light – it doesn’t take nefarious influences to make it get dark at night. Same deal with confusion, hunger, fatigue, a whole host of physiological disorders, and so on. This is a pet peeve of mine due to the number of people I run into who seem to think that all ills can be cured overnight if they only keep the commandments. i.e. afflicted people must be sinning. Or in this case, if they are not sinning, they must be possessed. |
That should be: Even if one reduces Satan to a metaphor for all evil, an absence of good, like a dark night, an empty room, or a silent party is not the same as the positive presence of evil. |
Though I usually make up these commentaries entirely, this one actually happened to me in seminary on more than one occasion. (Except for the part about it not mattering how close to the line you are in a truly binary model — I put that in because I always want to point that out (though I never do) whenever people use line analogies in church. Why do they always try to sneak in shades of grey when they’ve already divided the field?) I even knew some kids that used to carry this list around to constantly check to make sure they stayed under the influence of the Spirit. Anyway, as an impressionable tween, this list caused me all kinds of unnecessary guilt. Thankfully I grew out of it. I really hope this thing doesn’t see the inside of seminary or youth Sunday School classrooms anymore. - Keri (#5), I couldn’t agree more. - Jared (#6):
I am, but not in the way that its creators intended. EFM is an endless source of amusement. It’s time to jump on the bandwagon, brother! - Deaco (#7), I feel good about your comment. - I don’t know, Mark D., the fact that you are critical (v. 33) of this list leads me to believe that you are under the influence of Satan. Seriously, though, I endorse your last statement 100%. |
how interesting – seems to differentiate between personality traits more than actual spirituality… |
#31- You avoid other peoÂple, espeÂcially memÂbers of your family. Most people are evil. Some members of my family are evil, too. So I avoid them. I think that’s kind of like “righteous wrath”. |
Of all the people I avoid, members of my own family are the ones I avoid the most. I avoid myself as much as possible. |
Orwell, very funny. I guess I didn’t get enough sleep that night. I meant to say that in this case people believe that anyone who sins, sins because they are possessed by evil influences. The idea that people sin because depravity is the natural state of man is positively benign by comparison. |
That is one of my problems, I guess – I have never really felt tempted by Satan ever. My experience is consistent with the following:
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I wasn’t having fun at your expense, Mark D. I was endorsing what you meant, not what you typed. I confess I actually didn’t notice the errant “not” until I read your comment 14. At any rate, I agree. |
Glad to hear it, Orwell. I think the problem of evil is serious enough without tracing every deficiency to some mysterious force of darkness. The latter sounds dangerously close to “the devil made me do it” to me. |
Orwell– Interesting post. If you were asked to teach a class on ways to discern between the Spirit and satan how would you approach it? Would you provide a list, use scriptures, or avoid the subject,…..? |
[...] annegb, commenting on Orwell’s post “Doctrinal Commentary on Especially for Mormons #4: ‘Discerning Between the Spirit and Satan’” at Mormon Mentality: Of all the people I avoid, members of my own family are the ones I avoid the most. I avoid myself as much as possible. [...] |